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[MajinSweet4]

The fact that they are selling increased odds of getting an item instead of just selling item themselves is even worse. Now you have a no clear indication of the value of your purchase.(Price Obfuscation)

https://bepp.wharton.upenn.edu/bepp/assets/File/AE-F13-Muir.pdf

Selling exp boost is also something typical of free to play games. (Except Destiny is not free) You're essentially paying to speed up the non-fun parts the game. (Grind, padded filler, etc) Where in a traditional game, the simple act of playing would be fun and thus you'd have no need to pay to get to the fun.

On top of that, the uncertain nature of what you may get (or may not get) for your dollar is a classic example of a Skinner Box method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

And of course it now inherently mixes the in game economy with our real life economy. Putting people that opt out at a disadvantage, no matter how slight it may seem, it still compromises the integrity of a game.

These type of systems are manipulative, addictive and unfair to everyone in the game. Hopefully Bungie does not go through with this.

 

[Mr YuYu]

Isn't this gambling?

I hope it is considered gambling. Maybe that way they won't be able to implement it...

 

[Omni]

This would be incredibly shitty.

I hope it's real. Just because of the backlash.

 

[XAL]

The fact that they are selling increased odds of getting an item instead of just selling item themselves is even worse. Now you have a no clear indication of the value of your purchase.(Price Obfuscation)

https://bepp.wharton.upenn.edu/bepp/assets/File/AE-F13-Muir.pdf

Selling exp boost is also something typical of free to play games. (Except Destiny is not free) You're essentially paying to speed up the non-fun parts the game. (Grind, padded filler, etc) Where in a traditional game, the simple act of playing would be fun and thus you'd have no need to pay to get to the fun.

On top of that, the uncertain nature of what you may get (or may not get) for your dollar is a classic example of a Skinner Box method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

And of course it now inherently mixes the in game economy with our real life economy. Putting people that opt out at a disadvantage, no matter how slight it may seem, it still compromises the integrity of a game.

These type of systems are manipulative, addictive and unfair to everyone in the game. Hopefully Bungie does not go through with this.

Yup. Absolute scum.

I'm done sinking any of my time into this clusterfuck.

I just can't wait for someone to come clean about how shitty making this game must have been. Really hope Joe Staten finally comments on what the fuck went wrong.

2.0.1

Sources for Motes of Light have been adjusted:

From earning XP post-40 have been increased from 3 -> 5
From Faction Rep packages have been reduced from 5 -> 4
From dismantling Rare and Legendary Items have been reduced by approximately 25-30%
From Daily Vanguard and Crucible Bounties have been reduced by approximately 50%
Sources for Strange Coins have been adjusted:

From Faction Rep packages have been reduced from 5 -> 4
From Daily Vanguard and Crucible Bounties have been reduced by approximately 50%
Materials recovered by Ghost Extractor upgrades reduced.

Weapon Parts from dismantling Uncommon or Rare Weapons have been reduced by around 35%.

I wonder if they'll sell these in packs or have an "increase odds" bullshit for this too.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

There's a chance that these database items are simply placeholders from old tests and ideas for Destiny's cash shop, but their presence is alarming. If they are real and planned for use before some kind of free to play announcement, it makes Bungie's assurances that Eververse is "cosmetic only" nothing but lies. That's bad, naturally. I did not have a problem with the emotes - I actually support the idea of the game's content updates being supported by goofy cosmetic stuff like that if it means no more 20 and 40 dollar paywalls - but I have a huge, huge problem with this if it's the path Destiny is headed down.

Here's the thing: the "you don't have to buy it" argument only works for 1. cosmetic only stores and 2. free to play games. If these items launch and Destiny is not otherwise completely free to play, Bungie has failed to deliver a fair value.

Bungie has already been slowly winding back the speed with which your characters can progress. That's totally fine in theory, as RPGs should have an appreciable curve without too many shortcuts to top end gear. So far, they've lowered the number of exotic items Xur sells each week (instead of selling an engram and a weapon, he sells either) and dialed back the potency of the Three of Coins consumable, which at TTK's launch made it possible to earn tons more exotic items than usual. Bungie has also patched the rate at which you get motes of light and strange coins - again, totally fine on paper, as I think many players were getting more than enough of each to do everything they wanted with ease. RPGs need goals to work towards and tweaking the game slightly to keep people from getting everything too fast is reasonable.

However, that perspective is only valid when considering Destiny as a boxed product. As soon as gameplay enhancing items become available for extra money, all that goes out the window. As soon as this happens, every tweak to slow the game down is a potential money-grab. Loot is the reason people play RPGs like this. People will pay to have the opportunity to get better raid gear. Suddenly "you don't have to buy it" doesn't fly, because if you don't, you're behind the curve of players who do buy it. Suddenly tweaks like "lowered chance of strange coins dropping" isn't a holistic economy balance to slow the game down for everyone a little bit, it's a prod to get you to consider paying money to get a chance to earn the gear your now-smaller pool of currency can no longer afford. Right now, the only material difference between players who pay extra money and those who don't is a funny-looking Carlton dance.

And the thing is, that kind of carrot-on-a-stick design is fine, for games that don't cost money up front. I don't have energy to waste on being mad about free to play games existing, because at this point it's an established business model and it costs me nothing to peek into the trap. Maybe I'll like the free game and drop a few bucks in the hole, sure, it's designed to suck quarters out of you that way like any old arcade machine, but it was free to decide whether or not I was okay with what was on offer. Destiny isn't free - quite the opposite, actually, as plainly evidenced by all the people constantly and royally pissed off about its pricing. It's a game that already costs too much (to some people) and withholds too much behind grinds and time-gates. Suddenly, being screwed by RNG isn't just part of the game, it's a reminder that hey, you could pay a couple bucks and beat the odds. That'd be fine if Destiny allowed for window shopping. It doesn't.

If these items go live at any point while Destiny still costs 60 bucks, it's unacceptable. Literally the only way this would be okay is if the game was free to play. I've given Bungie the benefit of the doubt on many, many things over the course of Destiny's existence, but on this I'm pretty firm. Bungie can charge for access to the game or charge for gameplay items. They cannot do both.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Guess I was right

 

[Smokey_Run]

Disgusting.. and predictable as soon as microtransactions were announced.

I expected the gouging to come with the selling of motes, weapon parts, and strange coins after the economy nerf today.

The worst part? You'd never be able to prove they lowered the drop chances for raid items because of the RNG aspect of the game. I've had terrible luck with the new raid while others in my raid group get amazing drops.

If they want to do it, do it. Just don't use multiple currency conversions to hide it. Don't have Xur sell these items, but starve the community of Strange Coins just to turn around in a month and sell Strange Coins for Silver.

 

[Omni]

Yeah, what's wrong with people and not giving Bungie the benefit of the doubt here.

They've handled Destiny pretty great so far, let's just see what happens before we get upset.

Yeah, if you ignore the last year with their overpriced, content staved, near mandatory expansions and just focus on TTK.

Bungie hasn't inspired a lot of confidence.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

It's worth mentioning that it's perhaps possible that these items aren't intended for microtransactions, but I have a difficult time believing that given their nature.

 

[Ken]

One step closer to exotic/legendary gear booster packs yay.

 

[Joco]

Saw this coming a mile away. Only a matter of time before cosmetics becomes stuff like this, maybe even worse (selling of individual guns?). Not surprised at all. And of course the game will be geared to making people want to spend on boosters and such.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Doesn't look like anything other than microtransactions. As a huge Destiny and Bungie fan, this is extremely disappointing. This may be the thing that finally gets me to stop playing this game.

 

[Lucifon]

Shocked these aren't character appearance resets.

 

[Falcker]

I guess thats me!




For the person who buys it. Don't see how it effects you.

It effects me by influencing them to extend the grinds so more people will pay to skip it.

Examples : every mobile game ever

 

[Wallach]

It's worth mentioning that it's perhaps possible that these items aren't intended for microtransactions, but I have a difficult time believing that given their nature.

Hard to say in my opinion. The first two for the raid loot could be anything. They could be an Eris purchase that requires X rank and Y amount of Moldering Shards (i.e. more streakbreaker options reaching beyond the final encounter). They don't overtly seem like MTX items to me, but they certainly could be.

All of the class XP items seem very clearly to be MTX items. There are instances of "Titan/Warlock/Hunter Starter Packs", there is almost no way those come from anything else.

The final four enemy type XP consumables don't actually look like MTX items to me. They look like basic-tier consumables that act an as XP analogue to Glimmer consumables (Ether Seeds and such).

 

[Emitan]

Shocked these aren't character appearance resets.

I'm honestly surprised those weren't there day one. I'd actually welcome them.

 

[Smokey_Run]

It's worth mentioning that it's perhaps possible that these items aren't intended for microtransactions, but I have a difficult time believing that given their nature.

The cynical point of view? These items are sold for strange coins by Xur in the future. They've managed to get some of the hoarders to spend their coins on Three of Coins and Exotic Engrams for chances at 310s for infusion (including me). They nerfed the drop rate of strange coins today to starve people even more. In a month or two, they sell strange coins for silver and Bungie gets to hide behind the roundabout conversion of Silver>Strange Coins>Boosts.

 

[T-0800]

Isn't this gambling?

That's an interesting point. Would have to make it illegal.

 

[skLaFarebear]

It seems weird that they just recently put out a statement saying that none of the stuff in their microtransaction store would influence the "action part of the game," and yet this stuff would totally influence it.

Its not really worth getting mad about unless this stuff actually gets implemented into their store, which then becomes really disgusting. I'd still play the game as new stuff comes out, but it could probably have a significant impact on the balancing of the loot aspects of the game and it might not be as enjoyable.

 

[NullPointer]

Looks like the original Bungie.net forum post (shared in the Destiny OT) got nuked.

All it says is "This thread is unavailable. It is awaiting Ninja Justice."

That said, its kindof a hydra now, and its being discussed and ranted about in other threads. Whoever is moderating those forums might have a busy night.

 

[Wallach]

Isn't this gambling?

Assuming you're talking about the raid loot consumables, no. At least not in terms of the law.

 

[Chris1]

Isn't this gambling?

How? Increasing your chances at winning isn't gambling in any way.


Anyways the gambling law is incredibly easy to loophole and many other games have already done it. If you win something every time it's not considered gambling, so even if they were to introduce real world gambling into the game, all they'd have to do is make it so you win something every time (even if it's useless) and there's nothing you could do about it. It's not gambling if there's no way of "losing"

 

[inky]

Could be a sort of "plan b" stuff that slipped in. I would certainly believe a lot of devs and publishers are researching and internally testing such methods with large MMO/Social games. At least it makes sense they would.

Isn't this gambling?

Assuming you're talking about the raid loot consumables, no. At least not in terms of the law.

Right. I think eliminating some of the elements (mainly monetary returns) makes it so it can't be considered gambling under the law. Not even the types of games directly lifted from the casino industry like video slots and roulette and stuff like that. But I'm no lawyer, just what I've read about F2P and social "gambling" games.

They certainly use the same psychology behind them tho, but one could argue games in general have always done that to a degree.

 

[0racle]

Ok.

Stop.


Why do you assume micro transactions? Just for reactions?

Why not have additional items at xur that require strange coins like the three of coins?

 

[Smokey_Run]

Ok.

Stop.


Why do you assume micro transactions? Just for reactions?

Why not have additional items at xur that require strange coins like the three of coins?

Well, all this stuff just happened to show up in the database today when the microtransaction store went live. Quite the coincidence.

 

[Kalentan]

Doesn't look like anything other than microtransactions. As a huge Destiny and Bungie fan, this is extremely disappointing. This may be the thing that finally gets me to stop playing this game.

Considering the items for additional loot drops seem to function very similar to the three of coins, it's possible those three consumables will be added to Xur's stock. If anything compared to the others that makes FAR more sense then them being microtransactions.

It seems weird that they just recently put out a statement saying that none of the stuff in their microtransaction store would influence the "action part of the game," and yet this stuff would totally influence it.

Its not really worth getting mad about unless this stuff actually gets implemented into their store, which then becomes really disgusting. I'd still play the game as new stuff comes out, but it could probably have a significant impact on the balancing of the loot aspects of the game and it might not be as enjoyable.

If we look at the items added, the only ones that are Pay to Win would be the Kings Fall loot. Otherwise the boost to 25, the instant subclass leveling, and the exp boosts are all means to an end. That end being 40. However none of them will help you get better loot. So if we go based off what Bungie has said, it makes sense that those would be added as they're optional and the game will still function as normal without them.

It's very likely the Kings Fall consumables will be expensive items sold by Xur, as he already sells a consumable item that functions similar but is for exotic drops.

 

[BahamutPT]

Well, all this stuff just happened to show up in the database today when the microtransaction store went live. Quite the coincidence.

The items providing an increased drop rate from the Raid were already there since TTK launched, they're not new.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

Ok.

Stop.


Why do you assume micro transactions? Just for reactions?

Why not have additional items at xur that require strange coins like the three of coins?

Because level boosts have never been anything but microtransactions in these kinds of games. All the other boosts showing up with what will clearly be microtransaction level boosts kinda says something about what the other boosts could be as well, if they even get put in.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Full price game with pay2win. "I don't see the problem" lmao.

 

[Floody]

Well the whole "it's only cosmetic" thing didn't last long, the only way I won't have a problem with this, is if Xur (or others) sells them too, if not, fuck off Destiny, again.

Edit: nevermind, the increase loot things seem to just be Three of Coins, thought they might have been something different.

 

[SmartWaffles]

It's worth mentioning that it's perhaps possible that these items aren't intended for microtransactions, but I have a difficult time believing that given their nature.

I can see stuff like the shard being in game purchases but drop rate boost and level boost with in game currency? Doesn't make a lot of sense, they are basically written with real money on them.

 

[Hollow]

Might as well go Free to play if they're going to include free to play mechanics.

 

[Kalentan]

I can see stuff like the shard being in game purchases but drop rate boost and level boost with in game currency? Doesn't make a lot of sense, they are basically written with real money on them.

Yeah it's not like the game doesn't already have items that boost drop chance...

Oh wait...

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Couple things:

The Valorous/Heuristic/Indomitable Light were Three of Coins-like buffs sold by the Speaker for Motes+Planetary Materials (I honestly don't remember exactly what they cost, [but it was never Silver] I can't keep the entire economy in my head) but for a variety of bug-related reasons they were removed. They were also - as has been pointed out - in the data files before TTK shipped.

Someone PM me when Zoba hasn't talked about TLW for a month (seriously, move on). Clock starts now ;b

.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Luke Smith is currently posting in the Destiny OT regarding the datamined items:

Couple things:

The Valorous/Heuristic/Indomitable Light were Three of Coins-like buffs sold by the Speaker for Motes+Planetary Materials (I honestly don't remember exactly what they cost, [but it was never Silver] I can't keep the entire economy in my head) but for a variety of bug-related reasons they were removed. They were also - as has been pointed out - in the data files before TTK shipped.

Someone PM me when Zoba hasn't talked about TLW for a month (seriously, move on). Clock starts now ;b

 

[Auto_aim1]

Considering the items for additional loot drops seem to function very similar to the three of coins, it's possible those three consumables will be added to Xur's stock. If anything compared to the others that makes FAR more sense then them being microtransactions.

Yeah, you're right. Just read the post from Luke Smith in the community thread.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

Might as well go Free to play if they're going to include free to play mechanics.

It's Activision though, they know how to milk people dry and get away with it in full priced games. WoW started off with cosmetic vanity too, then it progressed to level boosts, then went to selling gold through gametime that can be bought with real money, keep in mind that all microtransactions in that were done while the game continues to have a subscription and payed expacs.

Yup, this whole thing has been resolved but I can imagine people in this thread will ignore the Luke Smith post.

I'd want to damage control the hell out of something like this too if I were in their position. If you want real evidence, wait until these items are added and see for yourself how they are implemented exactly. A CM trying to defend their company's decisions isn't saying much.

 

[Kalentan]

Yeah, you're right. Just read the post from Luke Smith in the community thread.

Yup, this whole thing has been resolved but I can imagine people in this thread will ignore the Luke Smith post.

 

[eoa-swam]

Luke Smith just tweeted :

https://twitter.com/thislukesmith/status/654213224007503872

We aren't (nor are we planning) on selling consumables that buff King's Fall drop rates for Silver.

 

[kudoboi]

edit: nvm

 

[Ken]

.

rip zoba

 

[eoa-swam]

It's Activision though, they know how to milk people dry and get away with it in full priced games. WoW started off with cosmetic vanity too, then it progressed to level boosts, then went to selling gold through gametime that can be bought with real money, keep in mind that all microtransactions in that were done while the game continues to have a subscription and payed expacs.



I'd want to damage control the hell out of something like this too if I were in their position. If you want real evidence, wait until these items are added and see for yourself how they are implemented exactly. A CM trying to defend their company's decisions isn't saying much.

Luke Smith isn't the community manager.

 

[nOoblet16]

It's Activision though, they know how to milk people dry and get away with it in full priced games. WoW started off with cosmetic vanity too, then it progressed to level boosts, then went to selling gold through gametime that can be bought with real money, keep in mind that all microtransactions in that were done while the game continues to have a subscription and payed expacs.



I'd want to damage control the hell out of something like this too if I were in their position. If you want real evidence, wait until these items are added and see for yourself how they are implemented exactly. A CM trying to defend their company's decisions isn't saying much.

Luke Smith is the game director of Taken King.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

Luke Smith isn't the community manager.

It doesn't change what I said though.

 

[DY_nasty]

Top player in my IB matches today with my fully upgraded Raid AR..

lol people getting put in a montage by a trash AR

 

[nOoblet16]

It doesn't change what I said though.

It does because it's not damage control but rather an explanation of what it is.

Games always have files for ideas that were there but dropped out, it doesn't say anything. It was also OP's assumption that these were for microtransaction in a game that already had an in game economy.

 

[Troy]

Combined with yesterday's horrible economy nerf whose goal appears to be to artificially increase the grind, this would be bad.

It does because it's not damage control but rather an explanation of what it is.

Games always have files for ideas that were there but dropped out, it doesn't say anything. It was also OP's assumption that these were for microtransaction in a game that already had an in game economy.

An in-game economy Bungie changed dramatically (and not in the favor of the gamer) yesterday.

My big problem with all this stuff, including the adding of the emote store yesterday is that they've prioritized all of that stuff over putting in a real clan system and a real LFG system. Shows you exactly where Bungie's priorities are.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It doesn't change what I said though.

I mean it kinda does cause the CM you're mentioning doesn't exist, as Luke Smith is the game designer.

 

[eoa-swam]

It doesn't change what I said though.

He is the lead designer on the game though, so he is the one to speak out.

 

[Blue Ninja]

While there's a chance these could be tied to microtransactions, most of their wording isn't very different from what you get when you buy 3 of Coins from Xur during the weekend.

"Stackable effect that increases the chances the next Ultra you defeat will drop an Exotic Engram."

Since they're already upgrading Xur's inventory this week, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume they're testing/thinking about adding/adding this stuff in the near future as well.

That said, however, I'm still quite convinced that anyone who's held firm to the notion that the Eververse Trading Company will only ever sell dances, is in for a rude awakening.