Albert Penello puts dGPU Xbox One rumor to rest

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Lint21

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Mar 1, 2012
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It's very frequent I have to ask questions of others and bring the answers back. I did the same thing here - went to an expert, got an answer, and brought it back.

People don't like the answer, cool, and I have absolutely no problem with questioning my specific answers or calling them into debate. That's part of the deal on here.

It's somewhat bothersome when people think you're out to just lie or fud or make it a personal thing.
Albert, thanks for coming on this board, and especially for continuing to post in the face of some pretty outlandish vitriol. Seeing you and Larry do this outreach here on your own time is really great.

What you note above is completely reasonable. It's a real shame that anyone here would make this dialog a personal thing; you are doing your job w/r/t/ PR.

That said, I encourage you not to get too defensive when people DO make it personal. You're representing a hugely important company in the sector that this forum is dedicated to. That company has, in very recent memory:

  1. Crafted a series of policies for their upcoming product that were widely acknowledged as being extremely anti-consumer.
  2. Been highly evasive and borderline hostile when questioned about those policies.
  3. On many occasions, been accused (often with proof) of employing "astroturfers" to manipulate public opinion here, Reddit, and other gaming websites.
That's a big hole to dig out of, man. There's going to be hatred directed at you, because you're the face of a company that many of us feel betrayed us. But FWIW and as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of us that are reading this all with great interest. We're the guys that not only spend thousands of dollars a year on this hobby, but are asked by everyone we know for recommendations or buying advice. I hope you can convince us.
 
May 27, 2013
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Gamers buy games, the only way any console is getting into my home is if it has games I want to play. You'll find most people who exist outside the gaming entusiast bubble feel the sake way.
I have both consoles at home and bought/buy games for 360 because they usually look better and perform better than on the PS3. I'll end up buying both next gen consoles due to the exclusive games but if the games look somewhat better on PS4, then that's my gaming platform of choice. And that company will get my money in terms of games, online service, accessoires and so on.

Surely, the performance of a console ranks behind things like price and (launch) games for the majority of people but it *is* and *will* be an issue for MS.
 
May 19, 2005
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By the way, given that everything else in that leaked Microsoft documentation turned out to be true, it seems the focus is very services heavy and that the Fortezella or whatever they're called augmented reality glasses will be coming sometime next year. Guess they might announce it at E3 next year, unless they've now delayed it.
That was from the Yukon docs not Durango. A lot of stuff in that doc didn't make it. Wouldn't be surprised to see the glasses though since it's the big thing these days
 
Jun 22, 2012
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Xbox One GPU:

768 GCN shader cores with 853MHz
48 TMUs
16 ROPs
1.31 TFLOPS
40.9 GTex/s
13.6 GPix/s
8GB DDR3 with 68GB/s + eSRAM voodoo
2 compute command processors
something between 2 and 16 parallel compute queues
GPU cache bypass: no

PS4 GPU:

1152 GCN shader cores with 800MHz
72 TMUs
32 ROPs
1.84 TFLOPS
57.6 GTex/s
25.6 GPix/s
8GB GDDR5 with 176GB/s
8 compute command processors
64 parallel compute queues
GPU cache bypass: yes
That doesn't look good for the Xbox One. I can kind of see where the PS4 comments about it being 50% more powerful might be true.

I can also imagine in a few years when developers start to really push the PS4 the Xbox One won't be able to keep up.
 
Dec 26, 2006
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I was getting a bunch of people asking about it, so just wanted to put it to rest.
Why do you keep stating that the perfomance difference is greatly overstated? Is the ps4's Gpu and ram solution not better then X1? Unlike previous gens, the architecture is almost exactly similiar so how can such a large theoratical gap not make a difference? Have seen the machines back to back? Have you hands on stress reports? What is the basis for that statement?
 
Sep 12, 2009
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Partly from the Hotchips slides from a few weeks ago.

As a note, they didn't cover the entire SoC at Hotchips either, just the overview really. Not trying to tinfoil hat anything though.
So I'm assuming that Sony divulged the specs on their GPU?? So shouldn't we hold off comparing these 2 systems until we know all of the specs for both systems. Just like we don't have complete info on PS4's CPU ... we're equally missing complete data on the Xbox1's GPU.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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unfortunately, now over on the misterX blog they are spinning your comment as confirmation of a FIRST dGPU, and denial of a THIRD overall GPU...

they are looking at it as

APU (CPU+GPU) + discreet GPU (in the 3+Tflop range)

they are actually saying your comment confirms that ^^^ you just denied the existence of a SECOND discreet GPU
I just read that blog...man, that's some different kind of crazy.
 

stonesak

Okay, if you really insist
Jun 9, 2013
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Sure he can also be talking about 3 titans in a single machine. Hell he might even have prototype next gen cards .

But I he never mentioned that did he. He only mentions the two consoles and thus he is only comparing the two.

The two are very close . Its the only way to actually read those comments from carmack unless you have an agenda and you introduce things into his words that aren't there.
Oh God, the irony...
 
May 20, 2010
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Yeah I made a mistake: I meant one GCN CU and not two. ^_^

It's easy math:

One GCN CU = 64 shader cores

64 shader cores x 800MHz x 2 FLOPS = 102.4 GFLOPS

8 Jaguar cores x 1600MHz x 8 FLOPS = 102.4 GFLOPS

PS4 has 18 GCN CUs, by the way.
You do know that flops are not the only thing a cpu does. Cu's are good at somethings and cpu's are good at other things.

Cu's are not going to make up for a lack of cpu power because if that was the case they would have removed cpu's a long time ago and just made chips of Cu's .

Even today you need fast cpus to drive games that use Cu's for physics .

If cu's were so great why did sony even put in an 8 core jaguar cpu. Why not use that space for more Cu's ...



I know a lot of neogaf really wants sony to be great but some of you guys need to come back to reality.
 
Jan 12, 2012
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No sorry that shit doesn't fly. You can't say Sony has the better developers, the more powerful console by 50% and it's clearly the easier console to develop for and then turn around and call launch game comparisons a trap. That's bull shit pure and simple.
Not sure if serious. Using the launch titles to gauge the difference in power IS dumb. I don't know how else to put it. Not sure if this your first one but we have been through plenty of console launches before..it's a cycle and it doesn't become as apparent at launch itself. But do note the following

I was referring to multiplat games. Most of the launch multiplat games are cross gen. Doubt any of them will make proper use of the hardware..on either of the consoles

Exclusives will definitely give a good indication...never argued against that. But that was not what I was referring to. To compare things like frame rate differences, as Penello was talking about, you will have to use multiplats.

Hope that clears things up for you. Don't eat up PR from either side. Specs are there for us to see. There's nothing exotic or hard to measure like the cell this time around despite le clowds mantra of MS. It's pretty straightforward. Thinking otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment.
 
May 1, 2010
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No. PS4 is significantly optimized for maximum GPGPU performance. Devs will unload many compute jobs to the powerful GPU. To put that into perspective: Using two GCN CUs for GPGPU is like adding a second 8-core Jaguar to the PS4 system.

Sony also designed the PS4 with a technique called "asynchronous fine-grain compute" in mind which allows devs to use the compute grunt without a penalty for graphics performance. To do that you split your compute load into as many smaller jobs as possible and "feed" it to your shader cores when they are underutilized during rendering tasks.
I wouldn't say that because even though the GPGPU is able to do fine-grain general purpose computing it's still not a CPU so it's going to do some things better & something worse.
 
May 27, 2013
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No sorry that shit doesn't fly. You can't say Sony has the better developers, the more powerful console by 50% and it's clearly the easier console to develop for and then turn around and call launch game comparisons a trap. That's bull shit pure and simple.
Someone posted a comparison of PS3 launch games vs. games later in the cycle earlier (somewhere hidden in dat 23 pages):

Bullshit, eh?
 
May 15, 2005
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I have both consoles at home and bought/buy games for 360 because they usually look better and perform better than on the PS3. I'll end up buying both next gen consoles due to the exclusive games but if the games look somewhat better on PS4, then that's my gaming platform of choice. And that company will get my money in terms of games, online service, accessoires and so on.

Surely, the performance of a console ranks behind things like price and (launch) games for the majority of people but it *is* and *will* be an issue for MS.
Compelling software is the issue. Infamous Second Son comes out about the same time as Titanfall. Second Son is clearly the better looking of the two games but to me it's also clearly the less compelling of the two games. Can I see myself playing Titanfall a year after release? Certainly. Infamous? That's a game that has very short legs, so no.

Graphical fidelity means a lot but there's a point where compelling gameplay determines what it means to be a great game.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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You do know that flops are not the only thing a cpu does. Cu's are good at somethings and cpu's are good at other things.

Cu's are not going to make up for a lack of cpu power because if that was the case they would have removed cpu's a long time ago and just made chips of Cu's .

Even today you need fast cpus to drive games that use Cu's for physics .

If cu's were so great why did sony even put in an 8 core jaguar cpu. Why not use that space for more Cu's ...



I know a lot of neogaf really wants sony to be great but some of you guys need to come back to reality.
It's a better balance to be heavier on the GPU specs, as it's more important for games performance. PS4 has this, X1 doesn't. That's reality, stop accusing people of being delusional, it's rude.

You're heavily exaggerating CPU importance in an attempt to imply PS4's CPU performance isn't up to par for the rest of the system, when by all accounts it is.
 
May 20, 2010
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I wouldn't say that because even though the GPGPU is able to do fine-grain general purpose computing it's still not a CPU so it's going to do some things better & something worse.
That narrative doesn't fit his view , he will simply ignore it.


For games you need both a powerful cpu and a power full gpu.


Last gen Ms had a powerful gpu and a so so cpu when compared to the ps3 which reversed the script.
 
May 20, 2010
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It's a better balance to be heavier on the GPU specs, as it's more important for games performance. PS4 has this, X1 doesn't. That's reality.
Sure. What would you rather have . A radeon 7790 with a i7 or Sli titan with an i3 for your gaming needs ?


now note , i'm not saying these are the diffrences between the systems , just pointing out how silly what you said is .
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Compelling software is the issue. Infamous Second Son comes out about the same time as Titanfall. Second Son is clearly the better looking of the two games but to me it's also clearly the less compelling of the two games. Can I see myself playing Titanfall a year after release? Certainly. Infamous? That's a game that has very short legs, so no.

Graphical fidelity means a lot but there's a point where compelling gameplay determines what it means to be a great game.
Titanfall is coming out in February!? That game is also competing against Destiny not Infamous. They are different genre and different gamers buy those games for different reasons.
 
Jun 6, 2013
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This is the kind of stuff I was talking about! This is what they need to be emphasizing instead of these lame attempts to muddy the water. I don’t even know who they are trying to sway with specs, don’t they see the results of these threads? Every Time they make a comment like this, people bring out the lists and the x1 starts to look weak. Reading these kind of threads only makes people more certain of the power gap.
At least for me, the power difference doesn't matter. Do I want a console that has some power to it? Yes. Do I care if my console of choice is the most powerful? No. I knew a 360 would be weaker than a PS3 when I got one but that didn't bother me. I have had and continue to have fun with my 360 because I really don't give a rip about how powerful it is relative to other consoles. I will be getting an Xbox One at launch because I know that I'll have the same overall fun experience as I have had with the 360 plus a few nice extra things like TV integration, instant switching, snapping apps, and the new Kinect. The exclusives that I want to play will be there as will of course the multiplats. At the end of the day, people will get what the console that they think they will have the most fun with. I have had fun with PlayStation consoles in the past but I have had way more fun with Xbox consoles and so I will continue investing in the Xbox brand. Does this mean that I'm some crazed delusional looney that hates Sony? No. I hate the PS3 controller but that's about it. I'm not opposed to the idea of getting a PS4 at all but if I do it won't be for a long time. I say all of this to say this, as Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "You must do what you feel is right of course."
 
Nov 1, 2006
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Damn. When you lay it all out like that..
You've never seen a straight comparison? It gets posted every other day or so.

Anyway, I agree with those that say MS should be focusing on games right now. Hell, even Kinect and OS stuff. Anything but power differences. Unless there's something crazy that has gone unnoticed the PS4 has a genuine advantage there. A 3DS isn't going to be a Vita, a WiiU isn't going to be a 180, a 180 isn't going to be a PS4 and a PS4 isn't going to be a PC. Buy what you like and if you have the means and the want, buy everything. Otherwise understand that whatever you invest in isn't the pinnacle of technology and just enjoy the games that are available. All the mudslinging...that's for corporations, not consumers.
 
May 20, 2010
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GPUs are much better at tasks that can utilize the massively parallel arithmetic power of many shader cores. CPUs are much better at taks that utilize single-threaded performance with branch prediction.

If you unload the former to your GPU, your CPU will automatically have more time to do the latter. ^_^
and your gpu will have less time to render the graphics you want.

Its a catch 22.


From what we know MS has the faster cpu and much more powerful audio hardware. Sure Sony can use the Cu's to match this (maybe) but then it wont have a Cu advantage anymore would it ?

So then what ? Resources are finite even on the ps4.
 
Feb 3, 2006
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That's a bit of a loaded question. Single digit difference can mean many things. It can mean a difference between 59 and 60FPS, which is indeed nothing, or it could mean a difference between 21FPS and 30FPS, which is literally huge, and equals the 40-50%.
True, and FPS is just one quality measurement. If one game is scaled from 480p to 1080p, but runs at a higher frame rate, what does that tell you?

It's these kind of dumb statements from the PR departments that are really annoying.
 
May 27, 2013
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Compelling software is the issue. Infamous Second Son comes out about the same time as Titanfall. Second Son is clearly the better looking of the two games but to me it's also clearly the less compelling of the two games. Can I see myself playing Titanfall a year after release? Certainly. Infamous? That's a game that has very short legs, so no.

Graphical fidelity means a lot but there's a point where compelling gameplay determines what it means to be a great game.
That comparison doesn't really make sense. I prefer the singleplayer experience of inFamous over the multiplayer experience of Titanfall, regardless of graphics.

If a multiplat title like NFS looks better on one console than the other, as has been indicated by a dev and this continues to be a trend for other games as well, then the PS4 will be where I'm going to play my multiplat games in the future.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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Sure. What would you rather have . A radeon 7790 with a i7 or Sli titan with an i3 for your gaming needs ?


now note , i'm not saying these are the diffrences between the systems , just pointing out how silly what you said is .
Those two examples are irrelevant and a false equivalent to PS4/X1 specs.

I thought these "PS4's CPU is a bottleneck" fallacies have been torn apart dozens of times by now? Even assuming the CPU is 1.6GHz it's not a bottleneck to the rest of the system, so false equivalencies to Titans and i3s are meaningless red herrings.
 
May 20, 2010
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That comparison doesn't really make sense. I prefer the singleplayer experience of inFamous over the multiplayer experience of Titanfall, regardless of graphics.

If a multiplat title like NFS looks better on one console than the other, as has been indicated by a dev and this continues to be a trend for other games as well, then the PS4 will be where I'm going to play my multiplat games in the future.
what system did you play your multiplat games last gen ?
 
Jan 8, 2012
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Reading this thread made one thing clear to me. Somehow the events of this current generation has emotionally scarred a few people. They want revenge in the worst possible way. They want their King restored atop it's perch. And nothing can get in their way. Console wars is serious business folks.
 
May 20, 2010
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Those two examples are irrelevant and a false equivalent to PS4/X1 specs.

I thought these "PS4's CPU is a bottleneck" fallacies have been torn apart dozens of times by now?
Torn apart in the same way that people convinced them self that MS steam is anti consumer but Valve steam is great for consumers ?

Torn apart the same way that the ps3 would be the graphical power house and the xbox 360 would look like xbox 1.5 next to it ? I remember that from 2005 /6 on these and other boards too.
 
Apr 23, 2010
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what system did you play your multiplat games last gen ?
The most obvious answer for lots of people == which ever console played them better. More often than not it was on 360...and that was with a small difference between the 2 consoles. It's much larger this time around.

Hence why all of this is so important to a lot of people.
 
Nov 30, 2007
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They could have stayed silent.
Or talked about how Kinect will benefit core gamers, rather than just as some tacked on accessory.

It is 2+ months to launch and I have yet to see any reason why it needs to be included in the box. It reeks of the Wii U pad where they believe they can come up with cool ideas for the thing, but it ends up being useless 99% of the time.
 
May 22, 2011
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That people don't care.

Not how you could ever come to that conclusion given the length of this thread and the numerous other novel-sized threads that have come before on this forum and other gaming forums.
When I say people I just mean people in general. Just become some threads on the internet is huge dont mean nothing. I see some people are making it a bigger problem than it is. You can state all the on paper facts and mathematics that you want but come launch day and if theres stuff looking way to close these "threads" will be funny in hindsight and will be laughing stock for next next gen.
 

SPE

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Mar 30, 2007
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You do know that flops are not the only thing a cpu does. Cu's are good at somethings and cpu's are good at other things.

Cu's are not going to make up for a lack of cpu power because if that was the case they would have removed cpu's a long time ago and just made chips of Cu's .

Even today you need fast cpus to drive games that use Cu's for physics .

If cu's were so great why did sony even put in an 8 core jaguar cpu. Why not use that space for more Cu's ...
Come on, you're savvy enough to know what W!CKED is saying. GPUs (CUs) aren't just for graphical rendering now if they allow GPGPU.

Yes, consoles still need a CPU, but historically, a lot of what was done on CPUs can now be done with GPGPU. The PS4 is optimised for this (as are current super computers which are just racks of GPUs).

Look at Resogun, where Housemarque have offloaded all their voxel calculations (which would normally be done on the CPU) onto GPGPU, meaning the CPU ticks along with plenty of headroom. In instances like this, devs have the freedom to assign CUs to GPGPU task, leaving the CPU to do what only a CPU can do, and physics etc shifted over to the GPU.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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Torn apart in the same way that people convinced them self that MS steam is anti consumer but Valve steam is great for consumers ?

Torn apart the same way that the ps3 would be the graphical power house and the xbox 360 would look like xbox 1.5 next to it ? I remember that from 2005 /6 on these and other boards too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

PS3 exaggerations =/= X1/PS4 comparisons
X1 DRM vs Steam =/= X1/PS4 comparisons
 
May 20, 2010
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The most obvious answer for lots of people == which ever console played them better.

Hence why all of this is so important to a lot of people.
People don't actually care about it . Those who wanted a ps3 last gen as their only system still did it dispite playing multi plats worse than the 360. Almost the same amount of people bought a ps3 as an xbox 360 dispite the 360 having the edge graphicly on multiplatform games.


All the arguing here about things the majority of the people on this forum don't even fully understand is just wasted key strokes. The vast majority of console buyers will buy what is postioned the best way or what is the same as they had last time.
 
Apr 23, 2010
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Paris
When I say people I just mean people in general. Just become some threads on the internet is huge dont mean nothing. I see some people are making it a bigger problem than it is. You can state all the on paper facts and mathematics that you want but come launch day and if theres stuff looking way to close these "threads" will be funny in hindsight and will be laughing stock for next next gen.
I don't think people are expecting severe differences come launch. It's a marathon not a race when it comes to these consoles.

It's already apparent in first party for sure. Killzone easily the best looking of the bunch and Infamous the best looking of the second-wave games.

People don't actually care about it . Those who wanted a ps3 last gen as their only system still did it dispite playing multi plats worse than the 360. Almost the same amount of people bought a ps3 as an xbox 360 dispite the 360 having the edge graphicly on multiplatform games.


All the arguing here about things the majority of the people on this forum don't even fully understand is just wasted key strokes. The vast majority of console buyers will buy what is postioned the best way or what is the same as they had last time.
How can you say people don't actually care about it?

There's been multiple people in this thread ALONE that said they bought the version that played best. Also see ANY digital foundry thread on this forum.

People VERY much care what system plays multiplats the best.
 
Aug 15, 2007
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Should have never gone down this path. Should have just left it at compare the demos and the completed launch titles. From what we've seen, launch titles are close enough where you wouldn't eyeball them and think OMG PS4 is 30% better than Xbone.

With that being said if the above holds up for the first few years, it could be a good thing for them. And they could spin it back as a "told you so"
 

stonesak

Okay, if you really insist
Jun 9, 2013
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People don't actually care about it . Those who wanted a ps3 last gen as their only system still did it dispite playing multi plats worse than the 360. Almost the same amount of people bought a ps3 as an xbox 360 dispite the 360 having the edge graphicly on multiplatform games.


All the arguing here about things the majority of the people on this forum don't even fully understand is just wasted key strokes. The vast majority of console buyers will buy what is postioned the best way or what is the same as they had last time.
So how do you explain the massive shift in gamers from PS2 to the 360?
 
May 20, 2010
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I don't think people are expecting severe differences come launch. It's a marathon not a race when it comes to these consoles.

It's already apparent in first party for sure. Killzone easily the best looking of the bunch and Infamous the best looking of the second-wave games.



How can you say people don't actually care about it?

There's been multiple people in this thread ALONE that said they bought the version that played best. Also see ANY digital foundry thread on this forum.

People VERY much care what system plays multiplats the best.
Is it a marathon ? This generation can unfold much quicker than last gen with either company jumping out with a new system quickly.

x86 + amd means in 4 or 5 years they can grab amd's newest low powered cpu with amd's newest gpu tech and release the xbox two or ps5 and start this all over again.

Nintendo who has been out for a year could decide to cut the gen short and in year 3 of the ps4/one they could simply put out a monster of a console. Things like stacked ram / ddr 4 and other tech inovations will hit in that time frame.
 
Jan 12, 2008
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Why do you keep stating that the perfomance difference is greatly overstated? Is the ps4's Gpu and ram solution not better then X1? Unlike previous gens, the architecture is almost exactly similiar so how can such a large theoratical gap not make a difference? Have seen the machines back to back? Have you hands on stress reports? What is the basis for that statement?
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.
 
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