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Opinion (*) Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer at Crytek contrasts the next Gen consoles in interview (Up: Tweets/Article removed)

quest

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He did not even say XSX GPU is weaker than ps5's. He even mentioned that he believes these console perform mostly the same. Ps5 is weaker but 'cause of its smarter architecture can punch above its weight.
No he said it is a pos that is hard to program for like the ps3. I'm still waiting for receipts it is ps3 levels hard to develop for.
 

megreotsugua

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I seriously doubt microsoft invested heavily just so that xbox fanboys can wave their dicks on forums. Although you make some good points about the shader arrays. I will not pretend to know what I am talking about and would defer to (if there any), experts on here with that. But, surely this was widely discussed with AMD during the conception phase. It would be incredible if it turned out having more was less, and AMD stood by and did nothing, whilst they designed something that was obviously going to be handicapped.

geordiemp geordiemp has an explanation for that and I'll just quote him


More CU is better, but not tacked on the end of a shader array like XSX and Navi 14 is not ideal. MS likely did this because they wanted 4 shader arrays, as the design is for running 4 games as a server most likely. XSX also has a server type CPU arrangement.
 

ethomaz

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No he said it is a pos that is hard to program for like the ps3. I'm still waiting for receipts it is ps3 levels hard to develop for.
I believe it was a metaphor.

The difficult to programing between PS5/Series X is like 360/PS3.
 

jroc74

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Do you have RDNA2 card and tested this ? or like usual spreading fake information
You can see 6800XT benchmarks now, just released today.

Using RDNA 1 to try to gauge the PS5 performance months ago was already shaky. Some said this once the consoles were confirmed to be on RDNA 2.

....why are some ppl still referencing the 5700, 5700XT today....?
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

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? They are GPUs right? People are trying to say that les with higher clocks = better. Yet the manufacturers are obviously not listening to the forum experts. In any case, both consoles have dedicated memory in their systems to games even if it is not solely dedicated to the GPU. and they have fairly decent cpus this time. I don't yet see your point here.




I seriously doubt microsoft invested heavily just so that xbox fanboys can wave their dicks on forums. Although you make some good points about the shader arrays. I will not pretend to know what I am talking about and would defer to (if there any), experts on here with that. But, surely this was widely discussed with AMD during the conception phase. It would be incredible if it turned out having more was less, and AMD stood by and did nothing, whilst they designed something that was obviously going to be handicapped. Still, we need to wait and see now. I have looked at few tech sites, and I haven't seen any apprehension frompeople far more knowledgeable than me about the design or the split L3 cache as was being speculated yesterday.

It is almost surreal though to see people assuming that a few x gen ports are an indication of anything. In a year to 18 months both platform holders will start putting out games that will annihilate these launch games. Even x gen Horizon forbidden west (or what ever it is called) will stomp them. I would bet money that unlocking the frame rate and resolution on RDR 2 for these new console, would look and play better than the launch games in question.

Everyone was lamenting not long ago that x gen games would ruin everything. But now they are proof of something, and apparently the 52 cu's will not be possible to get working. Yet we haven't had one game especially made for it! Same with the PS5, the really impressive looking Demons Souls will soon enough get totally outclassed... And I would be willing to be that x gen Horizon will be the game to do it. It is far too early to claim anything.
Don't try to straw man my commentary, I don't think the less CU's are better. But let's look at the Series X.
When crafting a console, which is a mass product and sell it with paperthin margins Microsoft have to carefully choose how they will spend their silicon budget, compare the console with a pc gpu isn't fair because on a APU the GPU cores are in the same die as the processor and everything else. The Zen architecture is known to need fast low latency ram to perform well, that creates a situation where both modules access the same memory. I think most of the advantages we see so far are down to memory throughput, in DMC even show what I believe be a cpu bottleneck in the 120hz mode. How that's is possible? Maybe Sony is being smarter in their pipeline optimizing the access to data.

I still think the XSX will improve to a point where it can flex their muscles and show performance gains over ps5. But not in every game, some titles will favor Sony design better, others Microsoft. And here we have the final blow to Microsoft marketing.
Xbox is not powerfully enough to have a nextgen experience in 4k60, so any resolution advantage it might have will even out in the DRS. It will be very hard to tell them apart, and that's a win for Sony that whent with the smaller SoC that will save them money in the long run.
 

John Wick

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After 1.8 Ghz GPU performance will not scale linearly with clock speed
Notebookcheck??? Hahaha...... Not even worth replying to this as clearly they are expert game related engineers. They are basing their whole arguement on PC GPU's based on RDNA1.
 
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RaySoft

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I vaguely suspect MS knew that it's a balancing act even before Cerny said it.

I'd chill and wait for more games to come out before awarding vindication medals to supporters of any of those platforms. The XSX does 4k 120 just fine in Halo MCC and many other games. Hell, the XSS even does 4k60 in a game. Clearly 3rd parties are currently struggling to quite pull the most out of the machine. time will tell if it's temporary.
It was always a blancing act... even before Cerny said it.
 

RaySoft

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Notebookcheck??? Hahaha...... Not even worth replying to this as clearly they are expert game related engineers. They are basing their whole arguement on PC GPU's based on RDNA1.
Yeah.. it's so funny watching people compairing numbers against eachother... the fun part being that they dont even understand the numbers they are compairing. Opening scene of 2001: A space odyssey comes to mind.
 
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Lysandros

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He did not even say XSX GPU is weaker than ps5's. He even mentioned that he believes these console perform mostly the same. Ps5 is weaker but 'cause of its smarter architecture can punch above its weight.
I do not agree with that statement at all. PS5 isn't weaker based on specs or real world performance. It isn't punching above its weight, that's a misleading thing to say. PS5 is performing exactly as it should.
 
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You talked about the CUs. The PlayStation 5 now has 36 CUs, and the Xbox Series X has 52 CUs are available to the developer. What is the difference?

The main difference is that the working frequency of the PlayStation 5 is much higher and they work at a higher frequency. That's why, despite the differences in CU count, the two consoles’ performance is almost the same. An interesting analogy from an IGN reporter was that the Xbox Series X GPU is like an 8-cylinder engine, and the PlayStation 5 is like turbocharged 6- cylinder engine. Raising the clock speed on the PlayStation 5 seems to me to have a number of benefits, such as the memory management, rasterization, and other elements of the GPU whose performance is related to the frequency not CU count. So in some scenarios PlayStation 5's GPU works faster than the Series X. That's what makes the console GPU to work even more frequently on the announced peak 10.28 Teraflops. But for the Series X, because the rest of the elements are slower, it will not probably reach its 12 Teraflops most of the time, and only reach 12 Teraflops in highly ideal conditions.



I've made the above analogy many times and got mocked for it. I'm not the most technically minded fellow on this forum but reading developer inputs on these next gen consoles over the last year led me to believe that one is going for brute power while the other is focused on effeciency and squeezing every last possible drop out of the architecture.

This developer (as someone else put it) dropped these way before the consoles was out and knew what was up. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that PS5 is outperforming Series X currently in some multiplats. The armchair devs here though were adamant with their 12TF rhetoric and ignoring developer input on the matter.
 

assurdum

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It's quite illuminating remember what Ali Salehi said about MS PR approach. I don't remind the exact words but I can forget his warnings: "I think MS did a big mistake showing all those raw data to the public" . Looking to the actual reactions in the the multipiat threads, he sound likes almost profetic.
 
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It's quite illuminating remember what Ali Salehi said about MS PR approach. I don't remind the exact words but I can forget his warnings: "I think MS did a big mistake showing all those raw data to the public" . Looking to the actual reactions in the the multipiat threads, he sound likes almost profetic.
Someone over on Resetera mentioned that MS shouting from the rooftops on 12TF and 'Most powerful console' was all PR and getting the message out that Xbox is best place to play these games. Sort of trying to win mindshare amongst gamers that it was indeed the better of the two consoles.
Fanboys here lapped that shit up for months and it's the reason why we have 'Xbox power king' meme threads.
At the end of the day we are now seeing games performing at a higher level on PS5 and people are shouting about Xbox tools being immature etc. etc.
It's got nothing to do with tools as one developer already debunked that myth.
It really seems to me like PS5 is easier to program for over Series X.
 

azertydu91

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Someone over on Resetera mentioned that MS shouting from the rooftops on 12TF and 'Most powerful console' was all PR and getting the message out that Xbox is best place to play these games. Sort of trying to win mindshare amongst gamers that it was indeed the better of the two consoles.
Fanboys here lapped that shit up for months and it's the reason why we have 'Xbox power king' meme threads.
At the end of the day we are now seeing games performing at a higher level on PS5 and people are shouting about Xbox tools being immature etc. etc.
It's got nothing to do with tools as one developer already debunked that myth.
It really seems to me like PS5 is easier to program for over Series X.
Well put it that way it is sort of a tools problem.But Sony engineers either are better at developping their API or are less limited in their approach in the fewer number of SKU types supported.
But Sony having better tools does not mean that MS tools are bad like some are hoping it is and even better both consoles will have better tools, devs will get used to the hardware and will do great things with both.
 

ethomaz

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Is that why Neogaf is so full of Sony fanboys now?
I do think there is a lot of Xbox fans and they are very nice... the most fudders and let's say vocal fans did left the site... I don't know if they will back when something really megaton good happens to Xbox but even that can take some months or years... MS was not ready for a new generation so they needs one or two years to start to output some games.

BTW PS and Nintendo (and if you want to include PCMR) always had more fans than Xbox.
 
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Interfectum

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thelastword

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Ali Salehi is a legend. He got so much flak, he had to delete his tweet, but he was so on point......Everything he said was truthful concerning the architectural approach of both vendors and the results that would follow....Can't wait to see Hunt and the next Crysis on consoles......I would not mind RYSE 2 tbh....
 

Bittermich

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Ali Salehi is a legend. He got so much flak, he had to delete his tweet, but he was so on point......Everything he said was truthful concerning the architectural approach of both vendors and the results that would follow....

he was not on point. Lol. Just look at cyberpunk 2077, how much different it plays on XSX. Far superior and basically running a different version.
We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.
 

NewChoppa

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Why do yall keep picking that game?

Was wondering this too. Cyberpunk literally doesn’t have a next gen version out yet but there’s a lot of people drawing conclusions from it.

We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.

Which games?
 
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he was not on point. Lol. Just look at cyberpunk 2077, how much different it plays on XSX. Far superior and basically running a different version.
We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.

Cyberpunk 2077 has no next-gen versions. It is running the One X and PS4 Pro mode in BC, uncapped. PS5 performs better in terms of framerate as well.

Why do yall keep picking that game?

Because they want everyone to know that the Xbox One X is more powerful than the PS4 Pro, maybe?
 
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onesvenus

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BTW PS and Nintendo (and if you want to include PCMR) always had more fans than Xbox.
Nah it looks that way because PS has way more fans than Xbox has. And growing.
Yeah, basically a reflection of the market, since this is a multi-console forum.
I've been a member for more than 20 years, when Neogaf was only GAF. I have lived the launch of PS2, GC, the original Xbox, PS3, 360, Wii, Wii U, PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PS5 and XSX on this same forums and I've never seen so much blatant trolling and superiority from PS fans as nowadays.
It's the main reason I've reduced my time lurking the forums.
 

ShadowWolf712

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I've been a member for more than 20 years, when Neogaf was only GAF. I have lived the launch of PS2, GC, the original Xbox, PS3, 360, Wii, Wii U, PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PS5 and XSX on this same forums and I've never seen so much blatant trolling and superiority from PS fans as nowadays.
It's the main reason I've reduced my time lurking the forums.
 
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ethomaz

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I've been a member for more than 20 years, when Neogaf was only GAF. I have lived the launch of PS2, GC, the original Xbox, PS3, 360, Wii, Wii U, PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PS5 and XSX on this same forums and I've never seen so much blatant trolling and superiority from PS fans as nowadays.
It's the main reason I've reduced my time lurking the forums.
Well I’m on GAF since 2006 or 2007 I believe... I’m since before that a PlayStation fan.

It is not 20 years but it more than a decade already.

IMO Sony fans superiority were even bigger with PS4... there were some fear with PS5 until it released... now with PS4 it was since beginning a joy for PS fans.

PS4: PS fans trolling since reveal
PS5: Xbox fans trolling until near release, after PS fans trolling

GAF in 2020 was basically a free Xbox reign until November... 11 in each 10 threads created were about how bad PS5 was, or Sony marketing, or Sony silent, or Sony RDNA1, Sony 9TFs, the overlooked machine, the anti consumer Sony, etc.

Maybe you just see PS fans trolling now and didn’t see Xbox fans trolling before because you have a side.
 
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John Wick

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he was not on point. Lol. Just look at cyberpunk 2077, how much different it plays on XSX. Far superior and basically running a different version.
We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.
Bittermuch what are you comparing? There is no PS5 version of Cyberpunk. I know your desperate but your gonna have to wait for the Next Gen version sometime in 2021. Several games running 120fps? You mean the Mighty Ori? Or do you mean Warzone and Rocket League which were patched for SX but not for PS5. We all know your desperate Dan to get that SX win. No need to shift the goalposts
 

On Demand

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he was not on point. Lol. Just look at cyberpunk 2077, how much different it plays on XSX. Far superior and basically running a different version.
We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.

It’s amazing how misinformed people are about tech and the way these consoles work. Maybe your fanboy mind can’t comprehend it or you’re purposely being dumb.

Cyberjunk doesn’t have PS5 or SX version of the game. It’s running in backwards compatibility mode with a small performance increase. Meaning PS5 and SX are playing the PS4 pro and XB1X version of the game. Digital Foundry of all people made note of this. Even said MS marketing deal with CD is the reason why the PS5 doesn’t have a quality mode. Cyberjunk has nothing to do with any power from PS5 or SX.

Same for the other dumb point about 120hz. SX can take advantage of backwards compatibility games to get them to 120hz. PS5 because of hardware emulation can’t exceed the hardware the game was originally made for. So it has to stay at max 60fps. All developers have to do, and has done, is make a native PS5 version to have the game at 120hz.

Try to understand these thing before you make yourself look silly again in the future.
 
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Jokerevo

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Still overlooking the most important part of the process? Having the studios talented enough to build engines to extract all those flops.

Imagine being the studio who has to build an engine that will scale from Xss to PC to XsX and account for all the hardware differences in between.

Meanwhile 1st party Sony has one config to deal with end of?

1.84 flops was all that was available to ND and Guerilla etc etc...wtf do you think is going to happen next? 😁
 
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Kumomeme

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looking back, he on point on lot of things here.
Ali Salehi was like:


i faceplam hard to see there a those who try hard to denied it by only using 1 buggy game as evidence. not saying other console it is weak. it just what it prove here that this lesser teraflops number console counterpart actually perform better than everyone thought at beginning and this guy already saying this in advance.

despite lot of people doubt him, he definitely know what he said.
 
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onesvenus

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Well I’m on GAF since 2006 or 2007 I believe... I’m since before that a PlayStation fan.
It is not 20 years but it more than a decade already.

Where you using an alt account before?


Maybe you just see PS fans trolling now and didn’t see Xbox fans trolling before because you have a side.
Yeah, let's pretend you of all posters don't have a side.
PS3 and PS4 were my main consoles. My Xbox One has been used basically as a BR player and nothing else.
Don't get confused. Critizing people who talk about technical things without any knowledge whatsoever or claiming some speculation is real without any more basis than wishful thinking, and those people being mostly Sony fans currently does not imply I have anything against Sony or that I prefer Xbox as a platform. I was doing the same thing when Xbots were talking about the hidden power in the Xbox One.
I bought both an XSX and a PS5 and I can see great things on both consoles.
 

ethomaz

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Where you using an alt account before?



Yeah, let's pretend you of all posters don't have a side.
PS3 and PS4 were my main consoles. My Xbox One has been used basically as a BR player and nothing else.
Don't get confused. Critizing people who talk about technical things without any knowledge whatsoever or claiming some speculation is real without any more basis than wishful thinking, and those people being mostly Sony fans currently does not imply I have anything against Sony or that I prefer Xbox as a platform. I was doing the same thing when Xbots were talking about the hidden power in the Xbox One.
I bought both an XSX and a PS5 and I can see great things on both consoles.
That is my second account here.... the same nickname.
I had an old ethomaz account with my personal @hotmail.com email and there is a time that GAF removed all hotmail users and only accepted new accounts with unique domains.

That made I created the account with my @br.ibm.com email... that is the account you are sawing here.

You can ask moderation btw I never created an alt here.

IMO Xbox trolling before the console launched were bigger than PlayStation trolling after the console launched.
 
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Vtecomega

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he was not on point. Lol. Just look at cyberpunk 2077, how much different it plays on XSX. Far superior and basically running a different version.
We also have several games that run at 120fps on XSX compared to 60FPS on PS5.

Why do you guys constantly regurgitate the same stuff? The PS5 version is running the PS4 pro code but just brute forcing it to 60fps. Its no different to Killzone shadow fall running at 60fps on the ps5 but 30 fps on the ps4.
 

rnlval

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You can see 6800XT benchmarks now, just released today.

Using RDNA 1 to try to gauge the PS5 performance months ago was already shaky. Some said this once the consoles were confirmed to be on RDNA 2.

....why are some ppl still referencing the 5700, 5700XT today....?
For raster games, NAVI 21 is about 2X scaled NAVI 10 hardware with about 2X performance results.
 

rnlval

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It’s amazing how misinformed people are about tech and the way these consoles work. Maybe your fanboy mind can’t comprehend it or you’re purposely being dumb.

Cyberjunk doesn’t have PS5 or SX version of the game. It’s running in backwards compatibility mode with a small performance increase. Meaning PS5 and SX are playing the PS4 pro and XB1X version of the game. Digital Foundry of all people made note of this. Even said MS marketing deal with CD is the reason why the PS5 doesn’t have a quality mode. Cyberjunk has nothing to do with any power from PS5 or SX.

Same for the other dumb point about 120hz. SX can take advantage of backwards compatibility games to get them to 120hz. PS5 because of hardware emulation can’t exceed the hardware the game was originally made for. So it has to stay at max 60fps. All developers have to do, and has done, is make a native PS5 version to have the game at 120hz.

Try to understand these thing before you make yourself look silly again in the future.
Vega GCN Wave64 instruction pipeline latency is 12 clock cycles.

RDNA's GCN Wave64 instruction pipeline latency is 8 clock cycles.

RDNA's native Wave32 instruction pipeline latency is 7 clock cycles. <---- minor improvements with Wave32.
 

rnlval

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Don't try to straw man my commentary, I don't think the less CU's are better. But let's look at the Series X.
When crafting a console, which is a mass product and sell it with paperthin margins Microsoft have to carefully choose how they will spend their silicon budget, compare the console with a pc gpu isn't fair because on a APU the GPU cores are in the same die as the processor and everything else. The Zen architecture is known to need fast low latency ram to perform well, that creates a situation where both modules access the same memory. I think most of the advantages we see so far are down to memory throughput, in DMC even show what I believe be a cpu bottleneck in the 120hz mode. How that's is possible? Maybe Sony is being smarter in their pipeline optimizing the access to data.

I still think the XSX will improve to a point where it can flex their muscles and show performance gains over ps5. But not in every game, some titles will favor Sony design better, others Microsoft. And here we have the final blow to Microsoft marketing.
Xbox is not powerfully enough to have a nextgen experience in 4k60, so any resolution advantage it might have will even out in the DRS. It will be very hard to tell them apart, and that's a win for Sony that whent with the smaller SoC that will save them money in the long run.
I disagreed with MS's disabling XSX's boost mode when boost mode clock speed can be exchanged for unused compute resources.