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Opinion (*) Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer at Crytek contrasts the next Gen consoles in interview (Up: Tweets/Article removed)

Bonfires Down

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I suspect there's a reason why every new PC graphic card improves on the number of cores of its predecessor. It would be simpler for manufacturers to overclock the latest product and charge the customer for it.
I think they do. I could be wrong but I believe there isn’t much overclocking headroom in modern GPUs.
 

assurdum

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It's still really interesting read about a developer who prefers efficiency to the power brute force.
 

kruis

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It's good to hear a games programmer honestly review the strengths and weaknesses of next gen consoles instead of politely saying they're both great in order not to anger PR people and fanboys.
 

GHG

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I suspect there's a reason why every new PC graphic card improves on the number of cores of its predecessor. It would be simpler for manufacturers to overclock the latest product and charge the customer for it.

That's exactly what they do sometimes though, especially with mid generation refreshes.
 
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ethomaz

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A GPU with 20CUs and 2000Mhz will delivery more performance than a 40CUs and 1000Mhz even both having the same TFs.

That is true since ever on PC.

But some tried to say it was bullshit lol.

Not sure why he is declared to have been spot on. I see he said that the PS5 would load games in “1 second” and we now know that the loading times are pretty much a wash across both consoles.
As for less CUs and higher clocks is better, that’s the opposite of what we see in the PC space, so again I’ll probably reserve judgment on that.
Play Miles Morales or Demon’s Souls.

SSD is really showing up everything he said.
 
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GHG

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MS could always copy Sony like they did with Xbox One X.

A mid gen refresh that mirrors the PS5's architecture?

I can't see it to be honest considering their push for Xcloud. I could be wrong but I'd think they will want any future consoles (if there are to be any) to mirror their current architecture as closely as possible to ensure compatibility.
 
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Greggy

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He means from an architecture point of view, not power.

The Xbox One X was a huge departure from the original Xbox One and very much mirrored the PS4's design but with a lot more power.
He's clearly talking about power and so are you. Why else would he suggest a change in architecture? For the sake of it?
 

GHG

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He's clearly talking about power and so are you. Why else would he suggest a change in architecture? For the sake of it?

Read the thread of discussion...

The idea that's being proposed is that if there is to be a Series X2 (or whatever the hell they would call it) it would potentially mirror the PS5's architecture rather than the original Series X's. That is what they ended up doing with the move from the original Xbox One to the One X.

The fundamentals are that you copy the more successful architecture and then add more power, doing away with your original architecture in the process. That's what the discussion is about. You asking about whether there are 6k60 (6k isn't a recognised resolution but ok) PS5 games doesn't make sense within this context, there don't need to be games reaching that target on PS5 hardware for them to be able to appreciate the design enough to imitate it.
 
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Greggy

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Read the thread of discussion...

The idea that's being proposed is that if there is to be a Series X2 (or whatever the hell they would call it) it would potentially mirror the PS5's architecture rather than the original Series X's. That is what they ended up doing with the move from the original Xbox One to the One X.

The fundamentals are that you copy the more successful architecture and then add more power, doing away with your original architecture in the process. That's what the discussion is about.

By which criteria would we know right now, at the time when the mid-gen refreshes are already being designed, which architecture is "more successful"?
And the idea that engineers simply "copy" an architecture is a simplification of what hardware manufacturing is but that's besides my point.
If this "copy" suggestion is based on the early performance comparisons, I simply asked which PS5 game runs at native 6k60 and your reply was to open the conversational rabbit hole that we now find ourselves in.
 

ethomaz

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Why, are there native 6k60 games on the PS5?
No.
Are there native 6k60 games on Series X?
I reply to you to not waste my time.
No.
 
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reinking

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I still think what we see at the moment is really the usual early gen shenanigans where hardware feels quite similar.

I remember when the PS3 whopped the 360ies ass with its exclusives at the end of that gen with its slight advantage due to the Cell BE.
Devs will get better and better getting the most out of the hardware.
Not now, but I think in 2 to 3 years we will start to see differences between PS5 and Series X.

I am not ready yet to eat that crow, you see... : D
So devs will figure our one console and not the other? Not sure why time is supposed to be the miracle fix for one and the other will remain stagnant.

I predict in 2-3 years we are going to see exactly what we see now. Minimum difference between the two on third parties. Anyone dreaming of one console trouncing the other is living in fantasy land.
 
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Greggy

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No.
Are there native 6k60 games on Series X?
I reply to you to not waste my time.
No.

"it’s up to you as a player and with the Xbox Series X, you can switch between both 4K 120fps and 6K 60fps options on the fly. "
 

Greggy

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"it’s up to you as a player and with the Xbox Series X, you can switch between both 4K 120fps and 6K 60fps options on the fly. "

Not that truth matters in this era anymore.
 

Stiflers Mom

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So devs will figure our one console and not the other? Not sure why time is supposed to be the miracle fix for one and the other will remain stagnant.

I predict in 2-3 years we are going to see exactly what we see now. Minimum difference between the two on third parties. Anyone dreaming of one console trouncing the other is living in fantasy land.
That's not what I wrote.
It's just the gist of that interview that the Series X is the machine where the power is more complicated to get out of it.
And that tends to improve over the years.
Happened with the Amiga, happened with the PS3, and if that dude is right it might happen with the Series X.
 

GHG

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By which criteria would we know right now, at the time when the mid-gen refreshes are already being designed, which architecture is "more successful"?
And the idea that engineers simply "copy" an architecture is a simplification of what hardware manufacturing is but that's besides my point.
If this "copy" suggestion is based on the early performance comparisons, I simply asked which PS5 game runs at native 6k60 and your reply was to open the conversational rabbit hole that we now find ourselves in.

You very rarely copy based on theoretical performance alone, there are other factors that lead to imitations in the engineering world. In this context ease of development and efficiency are two of them.

Why would you stick to a design has higher theoretical maximums but it's difficult/impossible to reach those when the more logical thing to do would be to imitate and iterate on design principles that would allow you to get the full potential out of a piece of hardware?

We actually saw the reverse of the situation happen in the move from the PS3 to the PS4. The PS4's architecture was closer to the 360's than it was the PS3's. It's nothing to be ashamed about, it happens all the time across all forms of engineering as people seek to take steps forward.

And no, we don't know at this stage, it's too early hence the whole conversation is speculative.

"it’s up to you as a player and with the Xbox Series X, you can switch between both 4K 120fps and 6K 60fps options on the fly. "

This is a 2d last gen game that runs at 8k 60fps on a 2080ti. Is this supposed to be some achievement?
 

Greggy

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And no, we don't know at this stage, it's too early hence the whole conversation is speculative.
Thank you.

This is a 2d last gen game that runs at 8k 60fps on a 2080ti. Is this supposed to be some achievement?
Yes. The entire XSX is over twice cheaper than a 2080 TI, so I question your basis for questioning the efficiency of the architecture at this early stage and speculatively suggesting its replacement. You're hilarious.
 

ethomaz

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"it’s up to you as a player and with the Xbox Series X, you can switch between both 4K 120fps and 6K 60fps options on the fly. "
Supersampled... so it is rendering in 6k and outputing in 4k.

Yeap PS5 can have that too.
In fact PS4 had that too.
 
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ThatOneGrunt

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This interview seems to give credence to people saying the software is holding the Series X back. Windows is mucking things up.
 

GHG

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Thank you.


Yes. The entire XSX is over twice cheaper than a 2080 TI, so I question your basis for questioning the efficiency of the architecture at this early stage and speculatively suggesting its replacement. You're hilarious.


The 2080ti was not mentioned because of its price but rather because the theoretical TF figure is similar. For the record, you can now get a 3070 that is priced identically to the Series X and has the same performance as the 2080ti.

As you will be well aware there are many reasons to currently question the efficiency and architecture of the Series X - at the time of writing it is not performing as expected. Whether it is only the tools/software to blame or whether the other aforementioned factors also play a part remains to be seen. The picture will become clearer over time.

You're hilarious.

Thank you, and sorry for questioning your box/company of choice.
 

Greggy

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at the time of writing it is not performing as expected
At the time of writing, you are comparing it to the 2080 TI which is above reasonable expectations as the price may suggest.

sorry for questioning your box/company of choice

I bought both. PS5 arriving on Thursday. In the words of John Linemann, I don't need to be a fanboy.
 

GHG

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At the time of writing, you are comparing it to the 2080 TI which is above reasonable expectations as the price may suggest.

Like I said the point of comparison was due to the similar theoretical power. So if I had said 3070 (which performs identically) what would you have said?

Be pedantic as you like, it doesn't hurt to question things, especially when they aren't operating as advertised.

You have a series X, you should be asking Microsoft wtf is going on instead of making excuses for them.

I don't need to be a fanboy.

Nobody needs to but yet here you are.
 
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Greggy

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You have a series X, you should be asking Microsoft wtf is going on instead of making excuses for them.
I thought you just said that your entire concern in this thread was speculative and precocious.
I think we can safely add selective to that, because I don't see you panic over the numerous hardware issues already reported which could lead to questioning the PS5 architecture choices.

Nobody needs to but yet here you are.
I think I'll request a more neutral take on who's being a fanboy here.

I leave you the last word, I just got word that my PS5 may be arriving early. Time to unplug my Pro.
 
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yewles1

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The 2080ti was not mentioned because of its price but rather because the theoretical TF figure is similar. For the record, you can now get a 3070 that is priced identically to the Series X and has the same performance as the 2080ti.

As you will be well aware there are many reasons to currently question the efficiency and architecture of the Series X - at the time of writing it is not performing as expected. Whether it is only the tools/software to blame or whether the other aforementioned factors also play a part remains to be seen. The picture will become clearer over time.



Thank you, and sorry for questioning your box/company of choice.
Actually, the newer PC cards are proving Salehi's point. We're reaching the point where more cores are being put in but not the clockspeed to access them all concurrently. The gap between the RX6000 series and 30XX is surprisingly small so far despite the massive core count on Nvidia's side. Higher clocks are needed now for efficiency, megahertz myth be damned.
 

GHG

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I thought you just said that your entire concern in this thread was speculative and precocious.

Yes, however you took issue with that despite the fact that there's ample reason to discuss/speculate what's going on with the series X underperforming at the moment.

I think we can safely add selective to that, because I don't see you panic over the numerous hardware issues already reported which could lead to questioning the PS5 architecture choices.

What's there to be concerned about? If my console arrives next week and its one of the early units that's experiencing issues I'll be annoyed but it can be sorted, you get warranty for a reason.

By the way, since you're clearly not new here it would be better to post on your real account or let us know who you were before you got banned. I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.

Actually, the newer PC cards are proving Salehi's point. We're reaching the point where more cores are being put in but not the clockspeed to access them all concurrently. The gap between the RX6000 series and 30XX is surprisingly small so far despite the massive core count on Nvidia's side. Higher clocks are needed now for efficiency, megahertz myth be damned.

Yep agreed. In that sense the PS5's chip design choices also mirror the decisions AMD have made when designing their new GPU's.
 
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Futaleufu

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I suspect there's a reason why every new PC graphic card improves on the number of cores of its predecessor. It would be simpler for manufacturers to overclock the latest product and charge the customer for it.

Overclocked hardware doesn't last long
 

John Wick

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"it’s up to you as a player and with the Xbox Series X, you can switch between both 4K 120fps and 6K 60fps options on the fly. "
So your using a 2d side scrolling game to make your arguement? Ok lmfao
 
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Greggy

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By the way, since you're clearly not new here it would be better to post on your real account or let us know who you were before you got banned. I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.
If I disagree with you I must have a fake account, how else would I find the audacity to?
More power to you.
 

reinking

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That's not what I wrote.
It's just the gist of that interview that the Series X is the machine where the power is more complicated to get out of it.
And that tends to improve over the years.
Happened with the Amiga, happened with the PS3, and if that dude is right it might happen with the Series X.
I wasn't even sure which console you were rooting for. That is why I left my response generic. Look at the PS4 and how much better games looked and ran at the end of the generation. It too will improve. My point is, I doubt either will improve exponentially better than the other. There is not miracle waiting around the corner to suddenly turns one console into a beast that leaves the other in the dust. If I turn out to be wrong I will eat your serving of crow.
 

Stiflers Mom

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I wasn't even sure which console you were rooting for. That is why I left my response generic. Look at the PS4 and how much better games looked and ran at the end of the generation. It too will improve.
So did the Atari ST and the 360.

If you don't get my point we don't need to further discuss and just agree to disagree.
 
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QuantumZebra

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I don't know how many times this can be repeated, ad nauseum:

Teraflops shows that this processor can be as efficient if it is in the best and most ideal state possible. The Teraflops figure is in ideal and theoretical conditions. In practice, however, the graphics card and console are a complex entities that rarely get to their fullest potential.


Dr. Lisa Su deserves a fucking trophy for what she's done at AMD.
 
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Esppiral

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There are a few Innacurate assumptions there and seems kinda strange, like comparing TF does matter with different arquitetures, does he even know that the consoles share the same arquiteture?
 

ethomaz

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There are a few Innacurate assumptions there and seems kinda strange, like comparing TF does matter with different arquitetures, does he even know that the consoles share the same arquiteture?
Is it?