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[someguyinahat]

You guys are thinking way too hardcore. You can't throw a rock on a "casual game" website without hitting a decent female protagonist that isn't a sex symbol. Flo from Diner Dash. Miss Management. Jill from Cake Mania. Cate West. If you want to be a little sillier about it there's Super Granny. And that's just off the top of my head.

Sure, you can argue that Flo and Jill and several others in the time management genre are in stereotypical jobs (waitress, baker) but at least they're independent and running their own businesses and such. Further, it can be argued that "casual games" tend to attract more female gamers therefore they have more female protagonists who don't strip to meet their goals or eat lollipops sensuously, but so what? It's a lot better than Barbie and the Olsen Twins when it comes to games geared at females.

Also Moira from Fallout 3. Finally, a woman confident enough in her femininity to not shave her upper lip.

 

[Peronthious]

Alyx is an absolutely valid argument, as is The Boss.

My votes would be:

Kreia - the single most complex, fascinating woman in the entire Star Wars canon. She's an invaluable advisor, a powerful guardian and a sympathetic puppet-master. My favourite female character in gaming.

Seconded. Kreia was amazing, shitty boss battle at the end that was only there because the game was rushed notwithstanding.

 

[Veelk]

They can develop her character all they want. It's all for nothing if they put all that development into a character whose clothes come off as she fights. You can take a hooker off the streets but you can't take the streets out of a hooker. Do you guys remember the marketing for Bayonetta? I know Sega is probably more to blame for that, but it was pretty sleazy overall. I don't think female gamers would be too psyched if Bayonetta were to become the standard for female gaming protagonists. Talk about setting women back like 20 years.

Why? Why can't woman be naked and comfortable in with their body? This is one aspect that makes bayonetta very empowering to some women, that she embraces her sexuality without whoring herself out.

The key difference between Bayonetta and the boob dolls that Itagaki produces is that Itagaki's creations are there for nothing but fanservice. There is absolutely no reason for them to be dressed like that other than to entice the viewer. Bayonetta dresses (and undresses) the way she does because SHE loves it. She dances and haves fun and strips because SHE enjoys doing it. We're just lucky enough to see it. Some people may not like that kind of character, both men and woman, but undermine woman bayonetta does not because she strips by her own choice.

Yes, you could argue that she was created this way to have an excuse to show off to the viewer, but by that logic, you can write off the Boss's sacrifice as just a dramatic moment kojima wanted to have.

 

[Gamemaster_ca_2003]

As anyone Mentioned Ms. Pac-Man because she is my favorite Female Character.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Why? Why can't woman be naked and comfortable in with their body? This is one aspect that makes bayonetta very empowering to some women, that she embraces her sexuality without whoring herself out.

The key difference between Bayonetta and the boob dolls that Itagaki produces is that Itagaki's creations are there for nothing but fanservice. There is absolutely no reason for them to be dressed like that other than to entice the viewer. Bayonetta dresses (and undresses) the way she does because SHE loves it. She dances and haves fun and strips because SHE enjoys doing it. We're just lucky enough to see it. Some people may not like that kind of character, both men and woman, but undermine woman bayonetta does not because she strips by her own choice.

:lol :lol :lol

It's hilarious because you're speaking about Bayonetta as having some choice in any matter. She doesn't. She's a creation of a man who projects what he wants in a woman on to her. Her enjoyment of his desires is part of the character he has created for her, most likely because his adolescent fantasies are repugnant to (most) real women.

 

[luxarific]

Why? Why can't woman be naked and comfortable in with their body? This is one aspect that makes bayonetta very empowering to some women, that she embraces her sexuality without whoring herself out.

You should underline and bold the "some women". I love the type of gameplay in Bayonetta (own and enjoyed all 4 DMC games), but I couldn't bring myself to buy Bayonetta since the character design is so stupidly exploitative (the crotch shots? empowering? seriously?).

 

[Pumpkins]

:lol :lol :lol @ people saying Bayonetta is empowering women. That's a load of hooey.

She's objectifying women if anything.

I agree that Alyx is pretty great. She's charming, strong, confident, but also shows vulnerability and emotion, like a real person.

 

[Veelk]

:lol :lol :lol

It's hilarious because you're speaking about Bayonetta as having some choice in any matter. She doesn't. She's a creation of a man who projects what he wants in a woman on to her. Her enjoyment of his desires is part of the character he has created for her, most likely because his adolescent fantasies are repugnant to (most) real women.

Yes, I went over this in my edit. As a fictional character, she doesn't really have any choice in the matter of how she acts or even thinks. But this is every character ever. If you can't accept that Bayonetta does things according to her choice, then every fictional character ever is as exploiting someone who shares whatever character trait they have in common because none of it is the fictional character's choice. It's like saying "The Boss didn't sacrifice herself for her country, she was killed off for dramatic effect" and then going on about how exploitive it is of all the war heroes who REALLY died for their country. It's true, I suppose, but a silly way to think imo.

You should underline and bold the "some women". I love the type of gameplay in Bayonetta (own and enjoyed all 4 DMC games), but I couldn't bring myself to buy Bayonetta since the character design is so stupidly exploitative (the crotch shots? empowering? seriously?).

That article that one person linked was from a woman who talks about how empowering bayonetta is to her. Take it up with her if you disagree, I guess. I'm just saying, I know 2 woman, one of which is getting a PhD in chemistry, who absolutely love bayonetta and are completely empowered by her attitude and actions.

 

[Twig]

lol people getting offended at comical exaggerations

this is a perfect example of how humanity is full of whiny bitches

 

[HorribleJames]

I liked miranda a lot.

 

[Pumpkins]

I liked miranda a lot.

"You know you want this Miranda."

BioWare, advocating creepy advances since 1995.

 

[Twig]

:lol :lol :lol

It's hilarious because you're speaking about Bayonetta as having some choice in any matter. She doesn't. She's a creation of a man who projects what he wants in a woman on to her. Her enjoyment of his desires is part of the character he has created for her, most likely because his adolescent fantasies are repugnant to (most) real women.

wait are you serious

by that logic every character is a fucking joke because they're not real

this is fiction, it's all about the writing and presentation

there is absolutely no rule in writing that says a whore or whatever the fuck can't be a good character - although if you can find such a rule and prove me wrong... by all means, feel free!

 

[Net_Wrecker]

lol people getting offended at comical exaggerations

this is a perfect example of how humanity is full of whiny bitches

Seriously. What the hell? This is the same argument that happened during the Bayonetta release. Characters don't have to be "real" and "show toughness yet vulnerability" to be good characters. Hell, I don't even give a damn about the whole female empowerment thing. Bayonetta is a fun character who is deliberately over the top. She isn't a character made for a dramatic game, or to show emotion, or vulnerability. She's a dominant witch kicking ass all over the place. People are letting the whole getting partially nude thing get in the way too much. NONE of the alternate outfits even feature the getting undressed effect.

By this thread's argument, Mario is an absolutely bottom tier character because he shows no real depth.

 

[Trickster]

Yeah dude, because women as a collective entity all share the same opinion.

I think that Marcus Fenix is a revolting and offensive depiction of masculinity, other guys I know disagree. Every woman I know thinks that Bayonetta is a revolting and offensive depiction of femininity, and the writer of the piece linked disagrees. Neither is right or wrong, welcome to subjectivity-land.

So basically, unless it's something you can calculate, there's no point in debating it, because it's just subjective and there's no a right or wrong. Gotcha :lol

 

[jim-jam bongs]

wait are you serious

by that logic every character is a fucking joke because they're not real

this is fiction, it's all about the writing and presentation

there is absolutely no rule in writing that says a whore or whatever the fuck can't be a good character - although if you can find such a rule and prove me wrong... by all means, feel free!

Huh? I didn't at any point say that she couldn't be a good character and be a hoe. Nor did I say that her character is a joke because she's fictional. What I'm saying is that you can't use her motivations to prove that her characterisation is empowering for women because her motivations are projected on to her by her male creator.

So basically, unless it's something you can calculate, there's no point in debating it, because it's just subjective and there's no a right or wrong. Gotcha :lol

Sure, that's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Veelk]

Huh? I didn't at any point say that she couldn't be a good character and be a hoe. Nor did I say that her character is a joke because she's fictional. What I'm saying is that you can't use her motivations to prove that her characterisation is empowering for women because her motivations are projected on to her by her male creator.

That's bullshit. Because Kamiya is a guy, he can't make a female character who loves to show off her body without being exploitive? It's like saying you can't be racist if your black. Give me a break.

 

[Twig]

Seriously. What the hell? This is the same argument that happened during the Bayonetta release. Characters don't have to be "real" and "show toughness yet vulnerability" to be good characters. Hell, I don't even give a damn about the whole female empowerment thing. Bayonetta is a fun character who is deliberately over the top. She isn't a character made for a dramatic game, or to show emotion, or vulnerability. She's a dominant witch kicking ass all over the place. People are letting the whole getting partially nude thing get in the way too much. NONE of the alternate outfits even feature the getting undressed effect.

I like you because you are intelligent and have an awesome avatar. U:

That said...!

By this thread's argument, Mario is an absolutely bottom tier character because he shows no real depth.

No one is denying that Mario is overflowing with charm and is an enjoyable character. (Well, I'm sure you'll find some people, but I'm not one of them.) But! I think it's not the TYPE of character we're talking about here. In the context of this thread, he's not really a fantastic character.

...He's still better than a large portion of the tripe out there, though.

Huh? I didn't at any point say that she couldn't be a good character and be a hoe. Nor did I say that her character is a joke because she's fictional. What I'm saying is that you can't use her motivations to prove that her characterisation is empowering for women because her motivations are projected on to her by her male creator.

That is a fundamentally flawed argument, though. Part of the writing IS her motivations. It doesn't matter if it was a male or female writer (or artist or whatever the fuck); it only matters if it is consistent within her character. And as a comical exaggeration of the sexy librarian witch... she is pretty damn consistent and well "written".

I haven't played Bayonetta, though, so I am only speaking to what I've seen and heard from other people. It's entirely possible she's not well written. U:

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Although I said +10 to Samus, I'd have to also go with Kate Archer, Elena Fisher, Bayonetta, and Kid from Chrono Cross.

Also, can't forget about Cammy.

 

[DrForester]

Alyx was good, as is Samus. Can agree a bit with Kreia. Should probably read her wookiepedia page sometime, get the full story out of it.

Few that deserve a nod that I'm not seeing.



Freya Crescent - Final Fantasy 9

Maria Balthasar - Xenogears

 

[Net_Wrecker]

No one is denying that Mario is overflowing with charm and is an enjoyable character. (Well, I'm sure you'll find some people, but I'm not one of them.) But! I think it's not the TYPE of character we're talking about here. In the context of this thread, he's not really a fantastic character.

...He's still better than a large portion of the tripe out there, though.

So with that in mind, the thread should be named "deepest, most realistic female character in a game" but it's not. Just because someone like Alyx Vance doesn't show any skin except for her face, and is pretty much a tomboy doesn't automatically make her the best female character ever.

 

[AAK]

After much consideration, I'd also like to add this character simply because of all the life she evoked without ever mentioning a comprehensible phrase:

But the undisputed character of gaming (male or female) is still by far:

 

[Twig]

So with that in mind, the thread should be named "deepest, most realistic female character in a game" but it's not.

All I'm saying is that's basically been the context of the thread from the beginning, no matter what its actual name is.

Just because someone like Alyx Vance doesn't show any skin except for her face, and is pretty much a tomboy doesn't automatically make her the best female character ever.

That is not why people like her.

Do I have to start hating you now for not getting it. ):

 

[tiff]

AThat is not why people like her.

i can't think of much else that's great about her.

 

[Boney]

Raise your hands people who haven't played any Metroid game apart from the original!
*3/4 of the people here raises their hands*

Very good! She puts the whole galaxy in jeaperdy because that infant metroid thinks it's her mom.
Great characters are ones who undergo a process of transformation. Samus has it, but it's very sutil.

But my personal pick is.

EDIT: Thanks to this thread I got a new avatar, yay for me!

 

[jim-jam bongs]

That is a fundamentally flawed argument, though. Part of the writing IS her motivations. It doesn't matter if it was a male or female writer (or artist or whatever the fuck); it only matters if it is consistent within her character. And as a comical exaggeration of the sexy librarian witch... she is pretty damn consistent and well "written".

I haven't played Bayonetta, though, so I am only speaking to what I've seen and heard from other people. It's entirely possible she's not well written. U:

I think that we're arguing different things here though. I don't think that Bayonetta needs to be empowering for women for her to be a "good character", that's a separate issue. In all honesty I think one of the big problems with this question and the responses to it in this thread is that there is very little middle-ground between people who think that a female character in a game needs to be empowering and those who feel that they should be objectified.

Anyway, my post was more a reponse to the argument that women should see Bayonetta as some empowering figure because it's her own choice to take her clothes off, and the issue of her desires and motiviations being the product of a male creator is a big part of that.

And no, I haven't played it either :lol

 

[Net_Wrecker]

That is not why people like her.

Do I have to start hating you now for not getting it. ):

:lol

I get it man, I really do, but that's 95% of the argument I've seen for Alyx Vance is that she's the exact opposite of the stereotypical videogame woman who is usually a fanservice damsel in distress. Why? Because she seems real, has realistic proportions, shows emotion, and depth (in comparison to most videogame women anyway), isn't half naked, etc. What I'm saying is that it doesn't necessarily make her the best, just one of the most real. Of course, the "most real" for some is a synonym for "the best," but that's a completely different argument that stems from Realism vs. Fun.

I love her as a character really, but at the same time I love Bayonetta as a character BECAUSE she's at the opposite end of the spectrum without seeming like fanservice. I don't see why people can't appreciate both without putting down Bayonetta as being "exploitative."

 

[Twig]

All right, that's fair. There is a lot of "LOL BOOBZ ARENT REAL" in this thread.

But I think most people who actually take their time to explain why they like, say, Alyx don't particularly care that she's not showing skin. Or at least it's not a BIG reason.

I also agree: people should be able to appreciate both. I can.

i can't think of much else that's great about her.

That's fine. I can think of a ton. The wonderful thing about life is that you're allowed to have your own opinions and you don't have to give a fuck.

Anyway, my post was more a reponse to the argument that women should see Bayonetta as some empowering figure because it's her own choice to take her clothes off, and the issue of her desires and motiviations being the product of a male creator is a big part of that.

I don't think anyone ever said it SHOULD be empowering... just that is IS empowering to some women. And to that end: see above!

 

[Snuggles]

Alex is great, but Commander Sheppard is probably my favorite female character.
She goes up against all odds and kicks ass, and that's what matters most.

 

[Sober]

Zoe is very likable, and even after I didn't think I would like her after the initial few minutes (she seems so. bored.), she won me over. Still, there is a lot more I'd like to know about her, and a lot of frustratingly unanswered questions. I also think that she acted helpless at all the wrong times while being almost superhumanly capable at others- I think this sort of stood in particular contrast to April, especially when they were on-screen together.

Been a while since I played Dreamfall, but did Zoe have as much exposition as April did, ala diary entries? Because I'm sure all but one playthrough of TLJ I read all of April's diary entries, but I can't seem to remember if Zoe's diary was anything more than a couple lines or a paragraph at most...

 

[ThirstyFly]

 

[Veelk]

Edit: twig said it better than I did.

 

[commissar]

I'm not familiar with Madison in particular, but just as a general rule of thumb, if a female character is so shallow that her raw sex appeal is the first thing that comes to mind when describing her, then she probably isn't sexy because they wanted her to be a confident character. She's sexy because the people who play the game will overwhelmingly be male. If a female character was sexy for her own sake, that would be one thing, but that's never what it is. It's always for the player's sake.

In the case of Madison (do play Heavy Rain, despite its many faults it's a worthwhile experience) "she is smart, sexy, realistic, not annoying" is what was said, and I thought you were replying about the character herself as opposed to a general statement.

Much like that post of yours, when it is taken out of context (in this case smart, realistic etc.) then yes your point makes some sense, though you're tarring a lot of characters with a large generalised brush.

However regarding Madison, the sexiness is window dressing on an interesting character.
Heavy Rain spoilers:

Spoiler

While I suspect the whole nightmare scenario was oddly integrated into the story (basically an excuse for David Cage to masturbate) the paranoia and lack of sleep was still insight into Madison's state of mind and opened a window into some history.
Furthermore the shower scene was consistent with the theme of the player controlling the whole scenario which features throughout the game. Much like continuous control we have with Ethan at the start of the game, from waking to shower until the end of the scenario.
Even then Madison as a character was treated with respect. The camera placement and cuts were not focused on titillation. Nor were her actions, and the dressing scene had plenty of well placed furniture.

tl'dr spoiler free version: despite the character's inherent sexiness, the game does not tend towards titillation.

Sexiness is another useful and relevant tool in a creator's toolbox, and I think to dismiss it as simple titillation is a very narrow view of the topic. Sure, people are also beautiful in movies, tv etc. to entice, as it seems ugly people are always a harder initial sell.
That's life really, attractive people are attractive because they're attractive.

 

[commissar]

I find it considerably worse when a female character in a realistic story is unconvincing. Some people are mentioning Madison Paige in this thread, but to be honest I took issue with her. I mean, I see this

Spoiler

forced strip/attempted rape

play out in the game, and as a woman I find it deeply disturbing... but the female in the game practically laughs it off. It's hard to tell if the developers just didn't understand how a woman would feel in that kind of situation or if they'd deliberately downplayed it because they wanted the male players to enjoy the scene, but I found it quite troubling, really.

As I recall in that scene if you bring up her thoughts, they're all shaky and freaked out, as an indication of her mental state.
It seemed pretty clear that Madison has an inner strength which keeps her going, but at her weakest she is frightened of being powerless (see dream sequence which is supposedly further explained in the prequel dlc).
I don't remember if it happens, but I'd be interested to see if she has any thought options about these events at the beginning of later episodes. You could always see that Ethan was constantly worrying about his son.

FWIW I also found that scene pretty disturbing, but I honestly don't recall the direction being titillating at all.

I love her as a character really, but at the same time I love Bayonetta as a character BECAUSE she's at the opposite end of the spectrum without seeming like fanservice. I don't see why people can't appreciate both without putting down Bayonetta as being "exploitative."

A quick glance is enough for preconceptions I guess. I think the character of Bayonetta is a surprisingly strong one full of sass and so on, confident in her overt sexuality. It's all empowering and fun I'm sure, and the few women I've seen watching the game found her empowering and humourous.
But then went on to roll their eyes at the camera placement.
Crotch shots etc. are fucking creepy no matter how you slice it.


edit. sorry about the double post :/

 

[RadioHeadAche]

I like Alyx, but I also really liked The Boss. They're both great for different reasons.

 

[dr_rus]

My personal preference is:

1.

2.

3.

Alyx is a great sidekick but as a female character she feels too artificial and unnatural most of the time.