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Alyx Vance is the best female character in a game.

G

Glass Soldier

Banned
Twig said:
Congratulations, you are reading more into my words than what was actually said or implied.

I applaud your inanity.
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Protip: Name-calling doesn't really help to bring your point across.

It's not like there's much to get out of your words other than "MAELS CAN HEZ FEELINS TOO!".

Oh well, we might as well ignore the fact that it actually was the intention of the creator to present her maternal instincts with that scene and agree to disagree. It's like people need to have breasts in their face to see the feminine side of a character.

oracrest said:
not sure if serious.
Click to expand...

/sarcasm
 
L

luxarific

Nork unification denier
Hawkian said:
Zoe's story would have had to be a few hours longer and answer a few more questions for me to consider her anywhere near April Ryan at all (I know she's in the picture too... but Dreamfall is not her story, it almost beats you over the head with that fact :lol).

Not that she wasn't a very strong character and extremely likable, but her arc just seems like it ended a few revelations too soon.

I have seen no examples anywhere near as compelling as April; she is certainly one of my favorite characters in gaming ever. Alyx Vance is the only stiff competition (haven't played Beyond Good and Evil) in my opinion. And I have a soft spot for Zoey from L4D2 and she makes me laugh, but come on, nobody knows that much about her.



I hadn't thought of applying the Bechdel test to games, but jeez, I just realized how completely TLJ and Dreamfall pass. I hope you've played both, they are not to be missed (ultimately disappointing as Dreamfall was, LTTP thread coming soon :()
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I played TLJ back in 2000 when it came out and April & her story didn't really make much of an impression on me. I've never played Dreamfall. I've been mostly playing 360/PS3 games for the last several years since my desktop is ancient - when I finish the new build I'm working on, I'll download TLJ on Steam and give it another shot.

Though I just remembered: Chell in Portal is female. I really like the fact that I forgot she was a woman until now. That's a good indication that the story she was in and what she was doing was more important than her gender.

We need more Chells.
 
B

bhlaab

Member
Pinko Marx said:
So by your same logic, a good male character can't be handsome?
Click to expand...

No, it's more to do with the fact that if, when describing a character, you have to resort to saying what he or she looks like it's not a very good character.
 
I

I NEED SCISSORS

Banned
Glass Soldier said:
Basically, I take "I kick ass... oh btw I happen to be a woman" over "I kick as AND I'M A WOMAN!" any day of the week.
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Well I don't, so i'll have to agree to disagree. It may as well just be another man otherwise. Perhaps that is more reflective on the sausage party that is gaming, bit it's still a downside of the character.

And about hourglass figures - I say again, most robots have these:

190222-jehuty_super.jpg


Samus may as well be a robot too with her get-up.
 
G

Glass Soldier

Banned
I NEED SCISSORS said:
Well I don't, so i'll have to agree to disagree. It may as well just be another man otherwise. Perhaps that is more reflective on the sausage party that is gaming, bit it's still a downside of the character.

And about hourglass figures - I say again, most robots have these:

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/4231/190222-jehuty_super.jpg[IMG]

Samus may as well be a robot too with her get-up.[/QUOTE]

I don't know, probably I'd have agreed if Fusion and the Manga hadn't been released but her relationship with Adam Malkovich wouldn't have worked if Samus was a male.

Also:

[IMG]http://www.zeonic-republic.net/lineart/gundam00/0_gundam.jpg

Can't see the hourglass, honestly.
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R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
autobzooty said:
personally, I think that if "sexy" is one of the first adjectives that come to your mind when describing a good female character, you don't have a good female character.
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So, a female character has to be a tomboy, she can't use her sex-appeal, because that would mean the writers depraved her of her dignity, right?

And that's why Bayonnetta it's one of the best female characters, because good female character != tomboy
 
T

Twig

Banned
Glass Soldier said:
Protip: Name-calling doesn't really help to bring your point across.
Click to expand...
I already got my point across. You chose to ignore it (and continue to do so) and put words in my mouth. The fault is yours, not mine, and until you apologize, everything you say will be ignored.
 
G

Glass Soldier

Banned
Twig said:
I already got my point across. You chose to ignore it and put words in my mouth. The fault is yours, not mine, and until you apologize, everything you say will be ignored.
Click to expand...

As I said, there's not really much of a point if your only argument to support it is that males can also express those feelings because these are traits commonly associated with females and female archetypes (see animus and anima). Basically, you're arguing with your subjective perception against something that was established hundreds of years ago and is deeply rooted in the western conscious.

So yeah, sorry for pointing out that you didn't have a point to begin with.
 
M

MechaX

Member
While Samus is hands down my favorite video game female, I would be hard pressed to say that she has an exceptionally developed personality outside of the Zero Mission manga and Fusion. Boba Fett doesn't do a lot of anything in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi (and for god's sake, do not bring up the expanded universe version of Boba Fett), but still manages to be a bit more human than Samus. Plus, she's caught in a Catch-22 situation where one camp wants her personality to be more embellished, but the other camp abhors the idea of giving Samus a voice and personality like in Other M. Hell, it gets awkward in cases like Prime 3 where every one but Samus really talks. But, we'll see what Other M does with her character.

... Of course, a few posters here are using this opportunity to attack the games in general with "Nintendo immunity" paranoid claims, but eh.

But anyway, I'd nominate these two...

KOTOR2Kreia.jpg


Fucking puts any Force-using character by Lucas to shame and manages to turn the concept of the Force on its head. I went through KOTOR 2 recently with the Restoration Pack, and I am still absolutely floored by how well done of a character Kreia is.

Lenneth.jpg


Lenneth deserves as much love as possible. I would say that she's the best written JRPG female period.

And I guess The Boss would rank in third, but too many have covered that base already.
 
G

Glass Soldier

Banned
olore said:
Thanks for answering my honest question.

For the jaded, bitter dude, protip; don`t be so jaded and bitter.
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It's actually The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 :lol I really thought you were trolling, sorry.

BobsRevenge said:
Sorry man. You should pick up Uncharted 2 though. The game is really good, so I was just surprised you never played it.
Click to expand...

:lol Don't be mean.
 
B

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
olore said:
Thanks for answering my honest question.

For the jaded, bitter dude, protip; don`t be so jaded and bitter.
Click to expand...
Sorry man. You should pick up Uncharted 2 though. The game is really good, so I was just surprised you never played it.
 
J

jett

D-Member
olore said:
Thanks for answering my honest question.

For the jaded, bitter dude, protip; don`t be so jaded and bitter.
Click to expand...

You must be crazy, that picture is from a PS2 game. :lol
 
L

Lucius86

Banned
Far too many stupidly skinny, large breasted, no personality characters in here.

Alyx is definitely up there as one of the most complete characters. I also loved Tali (her progression as a person from ME1 to ME2 is sublime).
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Tisan said:
You're assuming sexiness means sex appeal/pandering. Your mother probably likes to dress up and feel sexy when she goes for an anniversary dinner or whatever (just as an example). I imagine it makes her feel happy and confident. I feel the same when I dress up for a special night. I feel happy and confident, because I know I am looking handsome/sexy/my best etc.
The right of women to be who they want to be is the whole point of the feminist movement. A part of that is a womens right to embrace her femininity and sexuality in the way she chooses.
By removing the option of sexiness as a descriptor, you're imposing your moral values upon her character, which I'm sure you'll agree is not your right (within the socially accepted bounds of public decency expected of both sexes etc etc).

I imagine you'll find that by Madison being "sexy", we learn that she takes care of her appearance (and has confidence in herself), is fit (implies a certain amount of self discipline), is well dressed (has a sense of style). These character traits, all of which are good things, are implied through this sexiness.

Sexiness is not an issue in my opinion, but it is how the character reacts and behaves within the world which is the telling sign.
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with Madison in particular, but just as a general rule of thumb, if a female character is so shallow that her raw sex appeal is the first thing that comes to mind when describing her, then she probably isn't sexy because they wanted her to be a confident character. She's sexy because the people who play the game will overwhelmingly be male. If a female character was sexy for her own sake, that would be one thing, but that's never what it is. It's always for the player's sake.

Pinko Marx said:
So by your same logic, a good male character can't be handsome?
Click to expand...

Handsome/attractive and "sexy" are two different things. Every female in a leading role in Hollywood is attractive. That's just how it is. But you can be attractive without blatantly flaunting your gender and your raw sexuality.

PantherAttacks said:
Being attractive is pretty important in a visual entertainment medium like video games. Just because a character looks good doesn't mean she can't also be capable, convincing and important.
Click to expand...

Same thing here. A strong female lead who also happens to be attractive is obviously possible. But if the first thing you think of when describing her is how attractive she is, then she probably doesn't have a whole lot of characterization going on for her.

Relaxed Muscle said:
So, a female character has to be a tomboy, she can't use her sex-appeal, because that would mean the writers depraved her of her dignity, right?

And that's why Bayonnetta it's one of the best female characters, because good female character != tomboy
Click to expand...

Are you seriously trying to cite Bayonnetta as an example of a good female character? Bayonnetta made great strides in finding new ways to sexualize women that I've never seen before. My point is, the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of Bayonnetta is her ass. Plain and simple. That is not a good character, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think that's pretty much the epitome of objectification.

Good female characters do not have to be tomboys or pretend they are not women, but despite what you may think, you can be a woman without your sexuality being your primary personality trait.





I'd name some examples of female characters to help justify my position, but I'm afraid they would invalidate my opinions :lol
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
luxarific said:
I played TLJ back in 2000 when it came out and April & her story didn't really make much of an impression on me. I've never played Dreamfall. I've been mostly playing 360/PS3 games for the last several years since my desktop is ancient - when I finish the new build I'm working on, I'll download TLJ on Steam and give it another shot.

Though I just remembered: Chell in Portal is female. I really like the fact that I forgot she was a woman until now. That's a good indication that the story she was in and what she was doing was more important than her gender.

We need more Chells.
Click to expand...

I'm shocked that TLJ and April in particular didn't make an impression on you. I consider it an impressive work of fiction. :-[ Please do play it again and let me know what you think, I enjoyed it considerably more the second time.

Dreamfall is on consoles (and it shows in the PC version).

Chell... I don't see at all how she is a good character. What do we know about her? Even less than proclaimed "non-characters" in this thread like Samus, because all we have seen of her is one very short game in which only one continuous story is told.

I'm not saying she needs to speak to be a great character, and she does outclass the likes of Peach, but even though Portal is undoubtedly one of my favorite games I just can't follow the logic here at all. I can't think of a single adjective I would use to describe Chell, we just know nothing about her.
 
M

Metal B

Member
autobzooty said:
Are you seriously trying to cite Bayonnetta as an example of a good female character? Bayonnetta made great strides in finding new ways to sexualize women that I've never seen before. My point is, the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of Bayonnetta is her ass. Plain and simple. That is not a good character, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think that's pretty much the epitome of objectification.

Good female characters do not have to be tomboys or pretend they are not women, but despite what you may think, you can be a woman without your sexuality being your primary personality trait.
Click to expand...

What is the point of Bayonnetta. They tried to take every sexual aspect of a woman and try to make a female and a weapon out of it. She is to woman, what Duke Nukem is to men. A total over the top characters, who uses the best natural ability of there sex. The Duke is the most masculine men and Bayonette is the most feminine woman in the videogame world.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
Metal B said:
What is the point of Bayonnetta. They tried to take every sexual aspect of a woman and try to make a female and a weapon out of it. She is to woman, what Duke Nukem is to men. A total over the top characters, who uses the best natural ability of there sex. The Duke is the most masculine men and Bayonette is the most feminine woman in the videogame world.
Click to expand...


Femininity is defined by sex appeal? lol

Oops...double post. :( Forgot to edit.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Metal B said:
What is the point of Bayonnetta. They tried to take every sexual aspect of a woman and try to make a female and a weapon out of it. She is to woman, what Duke Nukem is to men. A total over the top characters, who uses the best natural ability of there sex. The Duke is the most masculine men and Bayonette is the most feminine woman in the videogame world.
Click to expand...


Following that thread, http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/ is an interesting read.

Just realized Bayonetta passes the Bechdel test :lol

Skilletor said:
Femininity is defined by sex appeal? lol
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Masculinity is defined by roid-rage bulging muscles and massive guns? I think it was a decent enough point to make.
 
A

A Huge Battleship

Member
millenia-from-grandia2.jpg


One of the few female JRPG characters who left a lasting (positive) impression on me. Oozes personality from every fibre of her being, though how much of that was attributable to her outstanding VA I can't be sure.

All the reoccurring names that keep getting thrown around are from games I haven't played
though they're in my backlog.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Metal B said:
What is the point of Bayonnetta. They tried to take every sexual aspect of a woman and try to make a female and a weapon out of it. She is to woman, what Duke Nukem is to men. A total over the top characters, who uses the best natural ability of there sex. The Duke is the most masculine men and Bayonette is the most feminine woman in the videogame world.
Click to expand...

You're right, both Duke and Bayonnetta are extremely over the top, like cartoon characters.

Next you're gonna try to convince me that Bugs Bunny is a good example of a great character and good dramatic writing.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Skilletor said:
No, it isn't. It's a silly point to argue that Duke Nukem = Good Male, Bayonetta = good female based on their pecs and ass.
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...yes, it's extremely silly. It's also not what you asked, right? I don't think either Duke Nukem or Bayonetta are great characters populating great stories. It doesn't seem unrelated that they each populate over-the-top action games with only the most ridiculous of stories.

I didn't proffer Bayonetta as an example of a great female character, you have to take that up with those who did. I was simply voicing agreement that they're equally, and effectively ridiculous.

Yes, like cartoon characters. For what it's worth, Bugs Bunny is a fucking fantastic character, and it has nothing to do with good dramatic writing.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
Hawkian said:
...yes, it's extremely silly. It's also not what you asked, right? I don't think either Duke Nukem or Bayonetta are great characters populating great stories. It doesn't seem unrelated that they each populate over-the-top action games with only the most ridiculous of stories.

I didn't proffer Bayonetta as an example of a great female character, you have to take that up with those who did. I was simply voicing agreement that they're equally, and effectively ridiculous.

Yes, like cartoon characters. For what it's worth, Bugs Bunny is a fucking fantastic character, and it has nothing to do with good dramatic writing.
Click to expand...

Did you even read the quote to which I was responding? I WAS taking issue with the person who defended Bayonetta. :lol
 
M

major_killjoy

Member
autobzooty said:
Good female characters do not have to be tomboys or pretend they are not women, but despite what you may think, you can be a woman without your sexuality being your primary personality trait.
Click to expand...

Yes, which is why Boss is boss. Many of the ideas that encompass femininity (i.e. compassion, cooperation) tends to be devalued in favor of the masculine (i.e. confidence, assertiveness). But, these traits are not exclusive to either gender. Regardless, at the extremes, we have female characters that are sexually exploitative to the point that they objectify themselves (as well as women in-general) and on the other side of the spectrum, we have females who deny/devalue feminine qualities.

The maternal, badass soldier is a wonderful break from the norm.
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
I'm shocked and saddened at how few mentions Cate Archer got in this thread. She's witty and sexy, feminine without being demure, and appeared in two of the best games ever made. She also fought off an entire trailer-park full of ninjas in a hurricane.

In fact I just bought NOLF2 again on Amazon out of disgust, and will bring it up in threads where it has no place whatsoever as punishment for GAF's poor judgment. I may even bomb the Killzone 3 thread with NOLF2 GIFs.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Zoe is very likable, and even after I didn't think I would like her after the initial few minutes (she seems so. bored.), she won me over. Still, there is a lot more I'd like to know about her, and a lot of frustratingly unanswered questions. I also think that she acted helpless at all the wrong times while being almost superhumanly capable at others- I think this sort of stood in particular contrast to April, especially when they were on-screen together.
 
G

Glass Soldier

Banned
fortified_concept said:
How on earth is Samus the best female character? She has no personality whatsoever.
Click to expand...

While she's certainly not the best Samus still has some interesting traits. It's just that the games decide not to slap them into your face.
 
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