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An atheist and a catholic have a kid...
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Sometimes. But the problem is that (other than Hell scaring the shit out of people) you're letting someone else control your moral compass. That isn't so bad if religion directs you toward being charitable, but religious leaders can also encourage people to be bigoted or cruel.McLovin said:
ElectricBlue187
Member
Tenks said:
this is the answer.
There's a reason Catholic mass is so boring, because it's run by a bunch of elderly people who either don't know or don't care that their religion is in it's death throes and would rather see it drown in society than evolve to meet the challenges of modern life.
spoken like a former catholic I suppose
Textured Monk
Member
Okay. A lot of people in here seem to have been raised religious one way or another. I guess I'll give a bit of my own experience, the raised "neutral" response.
My parents weren't churchgoers, so I was never forced to go. Some other kids, including family friends so I spent a bit of time with them, and that gave me questions. I heard things from them, and mostly it went back to my parents to get the story. They always explained things in a fair way, what these people believe etc, and never in the terms of right and wrong. I went to a public school, and so I had a mix of friends and classmates who did and didn't, so it really leveled out fine, I can't recall an instance of the rest of my year teasing me about going to hell etc. I know the idea came up somewhere, but I don't think it was abusive and just went back to my parents again, some people believe blah blah. My parents always offered me the chance to go to any church I wanted, and while I never took them up on that, I did go to a few youth group things of some kind or another.
It seems like them going to church is a pretty foregone conclusion. I can sympathise with the worries about indoctrination, and my own opinion would be putting it off until they're old enough to understand different beliefs so they've already got the right context to put it in. If that's not possible, I'd suggest a few things I suppose. Get to know the church your wife is going to, understand some of the values and messages that will be preached there (I assume you'd probably do this anyway). But if you don't believe in it, don't go. Going but not really participating isn't going to look right to your kids, and when they find out you don't believe at all (unless you're going to lie to them about it) it's going to be harder to explain things. Not wanting your wife to look like the bad guy is cool, and it's been suggested that you have the kids on alternating weeks so you can bore them with stuff like museums and documentaries - I really like this idea myself.
Someone was arguing about the need to know the bible anyway for literature classes, and they wouldn't get the allusions and so on without it. I'm not American so I might not quite grasp your school system, but if a literature class in a fairly religiously-free, multicultural country is going to assume everyone's read the bible and these aren't going to be taught to them, you could be in the wrong school? Presumably your wife will introduce it to them regardless as part of her message. I think it's more important and helpful that children are wide readers, but that's more general child-rearing and I don't think you need GAF's help with that.
For what it's worth, both my sister and I were raised the same way. I was never deeply into religion and remained fairly agnostic as a child, and ended up an atheist - not a particular life changing moment but a general slide as I learnt and read more and grew up, really. My sister got involved with Christianity around the 15-16 year old mark (Baptist I think) and goes to church regularly, she moved to a Catholic school from the public one (honestly more because of slipping standards and various other irrelevant reasons) but she's happy with it. I have to disagree with the idea that only someone raised religious can understand religion - plenty of people raised without convert. I'd like to think I can understand religion and what it means to people, and while someone will probably cry that it's not the same, it's never something that's alienated me. My best friend is Catholic and has quite strong beliefs. I understand these, I get her and where she's coming from, I just know it's not for me. Granted I can find it a little hard to properly understand Westboro Baptist Chuch for example, but I think any upbringing that can solve that problem might not be the right one.
In any case, RubxQub, good luck to you and your wife. I'd like to say nuts to her family, but I know some people just aren't like that, and if you have to fall on your sword for her try and make it a flesh wound. There is a compromise there for you somewhere. I don't post much but you're one of the more recognisable posters here and it's always good to see you show up in a thread, so I hope it turns out well for you both.
My parents weren't churchgoers, so I was never forced to go. Some other kids, including family friends so I spent a bit of time with them, and that gave me questions. I heard things from them, and mostly it went back to my parents to get the story. They always explained things in a fair way, what these people believe etc, and never in the terms of right and wrong. I went to a public school, and so I had a mix of friends and classmates who did and didn't, so it really leveled out fine, I can't recall an instance of the rest of my year teasing me about going to hell etc. I know the idea came up somewhere, but I don't think it was abusive and just went back to my parents again, some people believe blah blah. My parents always offered me the chance to go to any church I wanted, and while I never took them up on that, I did go to a few youth group things of some kind or another.
It seems like them going to church is a pretty foregone conclusion. I can sympathise with the worries about indoctrination, and my own opinion would be putting it off until they're old enough to understand different beliefs so they've already got the right context to put it in. If that's not possible, I'd suggest a few things I suppose. Get to know the church your wife is going to, understand some of the values and messages that will be preached there (I assume you'd probably do this anyway). But if you don't believe in it, don't go. Going but not really participating isn't going to look right to your kids, and when they find out you don't believe at all (unless you're going to lie to them about it) it's going to be harder to explain things. Not wanting your wife to look like the bad guy is cool, and it's been suggested that you have the kids on alternating weeks so you can bore them with stuff like museums and documentaries - I really like this idea myself.
Someone was arguing about the need to know the bible anyway for literature classes, and they wouldn't get the allusions and so on without it. I'm not American so I might not quite grasp your school system, but if a literature class in a fairly religiously-free, multicultural country is going to assume everyone's read the bible and these aren't going to be taught to them, you could be in the wrong school? Presumably your wife will introduce it to them regardless as part of her message. I think it's more important and helpful that children are wide readers, but that's more general child-rearing and I don't think you need GAF's help with that.
For what it's worth, both my sister and I were raised the same way. I was never deeply into religion and remained fairly agnostic as a child, and ended up an atheist - not a particular life changing moment but a general slide as I learnt and read more and grew up, really. My sister got involved with Christianity around the 15-16 year old mark (Baptist I think) and goes to church regularly, she moved to a Catholic school from the public one (honestly more because of slipping standards and various other irrelevant reasons) but she's happy with it. I have to disagree with the idea that only someone raised religious can understand religion - plenty of people raised without convert. I'd like to think I can understand religion and what it means to people, and while someone will probably cry that it's not the same, it's never something that's alienated me. My best friend is Catholic and has quite strong beliefs. I understand these, I get her and where she's coming from, I just know it's not for me. Granted I can find it a little hard to properly understand Westboro Baptist Chuch for example, but I think any upbringing that can solve that problem might not be the right one.
In any case, RubxQub, good luck to you and your wife. I'd like to say nuts to her family, but I know some people just aren't like that, and if you have to fall on your sword for her try and make it a flesh wound. There is a compromise there for you somewhere. I don't post much but you're one of the more recognisable posters here and it's always good to see you show up in a thread, so I hope it turns out well for you both.
Furcas said:
by 'own sake' you must mean the sake of doing good thing and 'for the good person's sake' or your argument makes no sense.
And I agree with the one saying that if not everyone go to church the kid won't see anything but 'But Dad get to stay home!'.
Unless you're blessed with a highly religious kid or something, most people will see this as boring stuff...Espeically if not everyone in the household don't get to go there
345triangle
Member
Tenks said:
well sure, but most kids would say the same thing about going to school. i thought church was boring at the time too, but i'm glad i went because it means that richard dawkins didn't write my bible.
basically if one of the parents is atheist there is zero chance of indoctrination, and the child's views on religion will be linked to the non-atheist. i figured out that my mum wasn't religious when i was maybe eight years old, and even that could have been a little late - if you introduce your child to it by saying "this is something that i don't believe but your mother does", the kid'll know what's up from the start, and will grow up with a balanced, rounded perspective. be open about your differences, too; i remember my mum taking my side when i asked my dad about beatification (making someone a saint by attributing miracles to him), and having access to varied perspectives on the world like that is a really positive thing.
as someone who was a kid in the exact situation posited by the OP and whose parents followed the wife's advice mentioned, i can say that i took only positive things away from going to church, even though i'm not at all religious today. i honestly don't think there's anything to worry about.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
The amount of unreasonable and ridiculous positions taken in this thread is just.. Wow :lol
Either way, RubxQub, hope you figure it out. I guess you're gonna have to compromise to some extent. If your wife is a rather moderate christian then -- considering you're gonna be an influence too -- things should be alright, I guess.
Either way, RubxQub, hope you figure it out. I guess you're gonna have to compromise to some extent. If your wife is a rather moderate christian then -- considering you're gonna be an influence too -- things should be alright, I guess.
Not a Jellyfish
but I am a sheep
Reading this thread title, I though it was the opening to a joke. :lol
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i think the OP has it right.
but the way i see it, even if the kid was raised with the notion that Catholicism IS the truth, he/she will likely break away from that belief around 14 like most of us did (assuming most of gaf is atheist/agnostic or at least very non religious). for everyone, religion will probably continue to be less and less prevalent in the future. peace, prosperity, and comfort are just going to make it harder for people to care about religion.
but the way i see it, even if the kid was raised with the notion that Catholicism IS the truth, he/she will likely break away from that belief around 14 like most of us did (assuming most of gaf is atheist/agnostic or at least very non religious). for everyone, religion will probably continue to be less and less prevalent in the future. peace, prosperity, and comfort are just going to make it harder for people to care about religion.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
345triangle, it's okay to tell a child that school is for his own good and he'll grow into it one of these days. You shouldn't have to "grow into" some kind of transcendent, ultimate truth.
I'd argue that someone concerned with rewards doesn't quite understand or value the meaning of his actions. What that means, of course, is debatable.Ashes1396 said:
Monocle
Member
Taking another look at your earlier post:Ashes1396 said:
Selfishness, including the impulse toward self-preservation, is a fine motive for goodness, but in my view the highest charitable acts are ennobled by a more nuanced purpose than chasing the carrot or avoiding the stick. The exact nature of that purpose is hard to pin down, but everyday exampleseven extreme hypotheticals like the one I gave in my previous postpoint us to this salient conclusion: the moral value of a given action is relative to its agent's intent. We know this intuitively.Ashes1396 said:
You don't avoid raping and killing others solely out of fear of punishment or hope for reward. I'm not a registered organ donor because I think it will earn me brownie points in the afterlife.
345triangle
Member
Mgoblue201 said:
well yeah, this is very true! but at the end of the day, it's something that i didn't want to do at the time and am now glad i did, just like school. basically i don't begrudge my dad taking me to church, because by the time i was old enough to make up my own mind in an intelligent, rational way (i'd say 13 or so) i'd got all i ever would out of it, and was pretty set against the idea.
OP doesn't have to worry about his kid getting indoctrinated, is what i'm saying.
FieryBalrog
Member
-COOLIO- said:
You think peace, prosperity and comfort are guaranteed?
In 50 years there'll be about 10 billion people on this planet. I give peace and prosperity until the year 2100.
iapetus said:
Right, and in fact there's even more nuance than that: being an atheist is mostly about finding it entirely unreasonable to belief in God based on the evidence on offer. Pretty much any serious-minded atheist will tell you that they might be persuaded to believe in God when presented with proper evidence and arguments -- however, none are available.
But yeah, there does seem to be a definition problem for those arguing against atheism. The exchange "Are you/can you be absolutely certain that there is no God?" - "Well, I suppose not..." - "Then you're an agnostic!" is all too common. I usually counter with Russell's Teapot... should I consider them 'Teapot agnostics'?
It's similar to arguments about evolution; I've never met anyone arguing against evolution that actually understood it.
Farmboy said:
Russell's Teapot is just a distraction. The argument for agnosticism is a solid one based on pretty much undeniable logic as far as I'm concerned. Russell's Teapot does nothing to attack that logical base. The conclusion is that either we have to agree that at some level we are teapot agnostics, or we have to freely choose to go against what we know to be a logically consistent position - which is exactly what we charge the religious with. If you want to take the view that you can ignore the facts because you're not comfortable with what following them leads to, what right do you have to criticise others for doing the same?
Teapot atheists like yourself also seem to misunderstand what agnosticism actually means. Accepting that the truth or otherwise of a premise can be unknowable doesn't mean you have to treat it in your general life as though it were true. On the contrary, it tends to make sense to take the position that where the truth of something is unknowable, you use something akin to Occam's razor to pick which side to come down on. Which for gods, invisible unicorns, teapots and the suchlike is disbelief, which is why the default position for an agnostic is also atheism.
RubxQub said:
Pay lip service to catholicism, but take it upon yourself to be an active education experience in the child's life.
Teach him all the things that are secular... the kid will eventually get it.
Evolution, Abiogenesis, Critical thinking, anthropology, psychology, etc, etc. Tell him about how knowledge fits together like a puzzle; the more you know and understand the clearer the overall picture is. The pieces should fit together naturally as well; you shouldn't have to jam them in.
And make a video telling your child about why you decided on this course of action (raising them catholic) and how you decided to compensate for it (actively educating them). If they ever lose their religion and ask you why you pushed them into religion despite been so evidently not religious... then you can play them that tape
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
iapetus:
Tell me, on a scale from 1-10, how much do you love discussing the definitions of agnosticism, atheism and etc?
Tell me, on a scale from 1-10, how much do you love discussing the definitions of agnosticism, atheism and etc?
Shin Kojima
Banned
I tip my hat to you sir.Furcas said:
this post will likely be ignored in the shuffle, but ill give my 2 cents
a) Firstly to those saying "let the child go to the church, eventually hell find out its all bull like i did", i hope all of these are joke replies. If any are serious id urge the OP to remember the sample size hes talking about, this isn't a religious message board and GAF is in no way, shape or form an even representation of society. If you follow this route there is a very very good chance you will raise a Christian child, religion maybe faltering, but that doesn't mean that everyone raised christian will "fall" into agnosticism/atheism. This is not something you can bank on.
b) There is some weight behind the idea that IF she goes to church and you stay at home that will confuse the child. Parents don't have to agree on anything, but she (i will use she just because i don't fancy typing he/she out) will learn that you yourself are wicked. When she learns part of the christian dogma, when over the years it is drilled into her again and again, she will begin to ask you questions about why you are a sinner, why don't you accept Christ? I have seen this happen, there is a very good chance your child will become immensely sad for you and when she runs to her mother for consolation what is she to say? She can hardly say you are not, and when the question comes, which one day it inevitably will "is daddy going to go to hell?" what can she say? Talk about damage, and if this all seems speculative to you then i urge you to believe me that i have seen this situation play out and as damaging as it is for the child it will also be hugely damaging to you.
c) Your wife is as huge hypocrite, she doesn't want the child to have a grasp of how religion plays a part in peoples lives, that is bull. IF she truly wanted this she wouldn't take her to church every week, she would take steps, when the child is old enough to understand, to introduce the child to members of all faiths (all the major ones). She would spend time reading books to her, children friendly books, about Christian ideals, Jewish heritage, Muslim verse. Of course this is NOT what she wants and of course this is NOT what she will do, she is a Christian, first and foremost, her faith requires it of her that she bring the child up in the light of Jesus Christ. So she is talking bull from both sides of her mouth on that point.
My assessment is that you should not have children, and i do not say that on a whim. If her Catholicism is more than socially mandated then there is no win to this fight for you, the more you press it the more she will feel that you don't respect her faith. Yet you cant have it another way, it is indoctrination, and while i feel that two Christian parents have a right to raise their child how they see fit so to do you have the right not to let the child be indoctrinated. More so i think it is gravely irresponsible of you to allow your child to be indoctrinated into a belief system that you yourself do not believe in just to "satisfy the wife". So don't have children and hope its not a dealbreaker for her.
a) Firstly to those saying "let the child go to the church, eventually hell find out its all bull like i did", i hope all of these are joke replies. If any are serious id urge the OP to remember the sample size hes talking about, this isn't a religious message board and GAF is in no way, shape or form an even representation of society. If you follow this route there is a very very good chance you will raise a Christian child, religion maybe faltering, but that doesn't mean that everyone raised christian will "fall" into agnosticism/atheism. This is not something you can bank on.
b) There is some weight behind the idea that IF she goes to church and you stay at home that will confuse the child. Parents don't have to agree on anything, but she (i will use she just because i don't fancy typing he/she out) will learn that you yourself are wicked. When she learns part of the christian dogma, when over the years it is drilled into her again and again, she will begin to ask you questions about why you are a sinner, why don't you accept Christ? I have seen this happen, there is a very good chance your child will become immensely sad for you and when she runs to her mother for consolation what is she to say? She can hardly say you are not, and when the question comes, which one day it inevitably will "is daddy going to go to hell?" what can she say? Talk about damage, and if this all seems speculative to you then i urge you to believe me that i have seen this situation play out and as damaging as it is for the child it will also be hugely damaging to you.
c) Your wife is as huge hypocrite, she doesn't want the child to have a grasp of how religion plays a part in peoples lives, that is bull. IF she truly wanted this she wouldn't take her to church every week, she would take steps, when the child is old enough to understand, to introduce the child to members of all faiths (all the major ones). She would spend time reading books to her, children friendly books, about Christian ideals, Jewish heritage, Muslim verse. Of course this is NOT what she wants and of course this is NOT what she will do, she is a Christian, first and foremost, her faith requires it of her that she bring the child up in the light of Jesus Christ. So she is talking bull from both sides of her mouth on that point.
My assessment is that you should not have children, and i do not say that on a whim. If her Catholicism is more than socially mandated then there is no win to this fight for you, the more you press it the more she will feel that you don't respect her faith. Yet you cant have it another way, it is indoctrination, and while i feel that two Christian parents have a right to raise their child how they see fit so to do you have the right not to let the child be indoctrinated. More so i think it is gravely irresponsible of you to allow your child to be indoctrinated into a belief system that you yourself do not believe in just to "satisfy the wife". So don't have children and hope its not a dealbreaker for her.
BrassMonkey1010
Member
Furcas said:
The only reason we all do good things is because we fear punishments and seek rewards. That is how we are raised. Our entire society is based around this concept.
Wickerbasket said:
I got it, I just thought it was silly to equate learning about religion with a known dangerous habit/addiction. It' not brainwashing at all considering people can leave anytime they want to- proven time and again by posters of this thread.
No warning should be given to any point of view, religious or non, if it isn't harming anyone. Religion does not unless you have an overabundance of angst or belong to a crappy religion.
FieryBalrog
Member
Farmboy said:
Arguments, yes. Evidence, no. Again, looking for God's footprints and flaming beard is, in many ways, an error of category. As I said earlier in the thread, treating God like a unicorn or a leprechaun is the rather shallow approach a lot of atheists take to the subject.
Mr Cola said:
Agreed but also think this isn't a bad thing, it just is.
Mr Cola said:
I think your scenario could play out but it doesn't have to have such damagng consequences. There is nothing wrong with a kid being confused about something as long as it canbe cleared up. That's how questions are raised. I think it's more important for him to discover the parents don't agree on the issue. If the religion teaches that someone burns in Hell for all eternity if they don't worship (**shudder**), then that kind of needs to be factored into it for the entire time. It's not like the dad is going to survive anyway if he is faking it:lol . I know plenty of people who have easily adapted to the idea of their parents believing differently although they do have an additional burden to deal with of either choosing sides or accepting consequences. That's not a bad thing, just life.
Mr Cola said:
It is not hypocritical to focus on what you believe. Society at large will without a doubt provide the other option for a kid to learn. When people say this, it is essentially asking a faithful parent to hold off on their worship because of the kid. I don't get the idea that people should think all religions are equal. If that were really the case, nmost would gravitate toward the easiest one or none at all.
Mr Cola said:
He could easily "win" because his child will have the ability to make up his mind on his own when he's older which is what his ultimate goal is, not that his kid becomes an atheist like his dad. His wife has every much right to an expectation that her child will be "indoctrinated" into religion. Worse case scenario is the religion is wrong and his kid grows up, enters society, and des of old age like everyone else.
Since he did not seem to mind his kid going to church, I say let it happen. However, he should not be dishonest and pretend to be religious just so the kid won't be cofused. That's going to happen everytime there is an interfaith marriage (Or faith/no faith marriage).
Atheism is not the neutral position like someone else said, it is another one. If the father is that concerned, then he needs to start "teaching atheism" , whatever that means, to the boy and have a wonderful family life (Kidding).
Arjen
Member
I was raised without any form of religion, and i would definitly prefer to raise a kid the same way.
I can't see myself having kids with a girl who wants to send them to church, those changes are slim to none. But in the unlikely case it would happen, i sure ass hell wouldn't go with them to church like the OP described.
I can't see myself having kids with a girl who wants to send them to church, those changes are slim to none. But in the unlikely case it would happen, i sure ass hell wouldn't go with them to church like the OP described.
Speevy said:
This is problematic thinking. The failure rate of religious indoctrination is extremely low, and it is low because they indoctrinate from birth and establish ideas by fiat rather than reason, essentially abusing the same evolved mechanism by which we warn children of life-threatening dangers.
The concern isn't that the individual will become some sort of religious zealot, it's that religion itself is fundamentally invested in a weak ideology that attacks their critical reasoning skills. If it really were strong then there would be no reason to indoctrinate children with ideas that MUST be believed solely because it is special. It's on this last point that the religious will be indignant about because they really believe that they are trying to do good, but what they ignore is the failures of the idea. They like to enjoy the side of the equation that they think is apparently good, while ignoring that their reasoning is flawed and impacts the lives of others greatly.
The attempt to teach children ethics and morality fails when their religious books include militant language and that such rules are explained away as the dictates of a God. This is why you have stupid ideas that without God there is no morality, and why religion is not only not a barrier to unethical behaviour, it may even bolster it.
We see that no matter how strong their belief, even their zealots doubt, because there is always the part of the human brain that rejects this sort of nonsense in most people. They try to embrace this doubt as a sign of faith, but they do so by ultimately distracting themselves from it.
The liberals selectively like to avoid whatever it is they don't like, their beliefs become a casual diversion until their senior years when the end of their lives become more apparent, but ultimately, this doubt is still a source of great fear. The conservatives on the other hand fear the most because they've invested more capital into the belief, have defined themselves by it, and feel that they have everything to lose by it.
While there is some cultural knowledge to be gained from religion, and social value in the interaction (as you would get if you joined any organization), these religions are detrimental. There are certainly worse ideas, especially from the field of politics, but that is no positive.
People have at least one shot at existence, to this I think I can get some agreement. If it is just that one, then that individual to which religion indoctrinates itself into, has been deprived of the opportunity to fully realize that one existence.
Wickerbasket
Member
Honestly, I don't even know what to say to this. The peer pressure alone can be enough to keep someone from leaving the church or even questioning their beliefs. There's a whole load of people who claim to be christian but don't go to church or follow the teachings, the only reason I can think of them claiming to be christian is to fit in.JGS said:
The whole concept of organised religion encourages blind faith and a lack of critical thinking. It also encourages forms of racism against other religions, and sexism against women and homosexuals. Personally, I think we'd all be better off without it.
Edit: Atrus, that was a really well thought out post. I enjoyed reading that.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
What the hell?BrassMonkey1010 said:
I don't kill or hurt people because killing and hurting is not something I can do. It's far out of my range of abilities. Punishment and reward do not come into it at all.
KingGraham
Member
My parents never took me to church. I've only been to two christian services in my life--one methodist with a girlfriend, and one catholic with a girlfriend. Both were insanely boring. And awkward.
I never had any serious questions about religion until I was in my teens. I went through a period of searching, though I never even considered christianity...it was mostly paganism, buddhism, vague spirituality... But until I was old enough to consider these things on my own, I never thought about it because it wasn't part of my life. I was able to take a fully objective look at every religion I came across and was able to come to atheism in a very natural way. No fuss, no muss.
But I think it's irresponsible to bring children up in a church. First, you know for a fact it isn't true. Why would you allow your children to be confused about what is and is not real? Its potentially damaging to their critical thinking ability. While plenty of people can break out of indoctrinated religiosity, some kids are more susceptible than others.
The fact that a child normally can't understand why religion is important unless they're brainwashed from a young age is quite telling. If your wife is so sure that catholicism is true then it should be able to convince the kid when he/she is old enough to critically evaluate its claims.
I never had any serious questions about religion until I was in my teens. I went through a period of searching, though I never even considered christianity...it was mostly paganism, buddhism, vague spirituality... But until I was old enough to consider these things on my own, I never thought about it because it wasn't part of my life. I was able to take a fully objective look at every religion I came across and was able to come to atheism in a very natural way. No fuss, no muss.
But I think it's irresponsible to bring children up in a church. First, you know for a fact it isn't true. Why would you allow your children to be confused about what is and is not real? Its potentially damaging to their critical thinking ability. While plenty of people can break out of indoctrinated religiosity, some kids are more susceptible than others.
The fact that a child normally can't understand why religion is important unless they're brainwashed from a young age is quite telling. If your wife is so sure that catholicism is true then it should be able to convince the kid when he/she is old enough to critically evaluate its claims.
soul creator
Member
FieryBalrog said:
it's not atheists that started the "treating God like a unicorn" thing. That's kind of how the vast majority of believers throughout history have seen God (at least, with regards to the major monotheistic religions). It's just that now since those types of gods have no evidence to back them up, people all of a sudden like to pretend now that most people's conception of God is this way more sophisticated concept that it really is.
Jesus dying for our sins and being divinely resurrected isn't some kind of vague metaphor. It's central to Christianity because a dead dude coming back alive supposedly really happened. People don't think a vague, abstract metaphor created the universe. They think an existing divine being who is concerned with the behaviors and feelings of humans created the universe.
That you can find a few philosophers or people who treat God as some abstract concept doesn't change the fact that billions of believers in churches worldwide do in fact treat God as "superpowered being that can create universes, read minds, and is concerned with the daily happenings of humanity".
This is not some strawman created by internet atheists.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Raise em Catholic. Ain't nothing better for a kid than some good ol' Catholic guilt.
Seriously though, the church is a good thing. It provides structure and a definitive place to say you've come from. I'm proud that I was raised Catholic, and still attend with my family on occasion, even if I think it's mostly a load of bullocks. I can only tell you that experiences vary, as the CCD classes I went to both A) heavily reinforced the notion that there were other faiths but Catholocism was a personal decision that made the most sense to the teacher and B) was little more than a means of socialization.
She is right though, you would have to attend Mass for a few years just so she doesn't come off as the bad guy. When I was a kid my father managed to duck out pretty often by "not feeling well." It didn't take long for the guilt to kick in and make me not want to let my mother trudge off the church alone.
Seriously though, the church is a good thing. It provides structure and a definitive place to say you've come from. I'm proud that I was raised Catholic, and still attend with my family on occasion, even if I think it's mostly a load of bullocks. I can only tell you that experiences vary, as the CCD classes I went to both A) heavily reinforced the notion that there were other faiths but Catholocism was a personal decision that made the most sense to the teacher and B) was little more than a means of socialization.
She is right though, you would have to attend Mass for a few years just so she doesn't come off as the bad guy. When I was a kid my father managed to duck out pretty often by "not feeling well." It didn't take long for the guilt to kick in and make me not want to let my mother trudge off the church alone.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I guess as a general update, I showed my wife this thread when she got home from work (I'm sure she'll read it at length sometime...and probably get mad at me because some people come across pretty harsh (don't worry about it)) and we had a mini-dialogue on it.
Unitarian isn't out of the picture, but the whole "sacraments" thing sounds like it's going to be important.
I need to do more research, but if the Unitarian church does Baptisms...we may have something here.
Glad I created this thread, though. Many thanks to all who have given genuine feedback so far.
Unitarian isn't out of the picture, but the whole "sacraments" thing sounds like it's going to be important.
I need to do more research, but if the Unitarian church does Baptisms...we may have something here.
Glad I created this thread, though. Many thanks to all who have given genuine feedback so far.
Anerythristic
Member
I have said this a million times. I was raised pretty much like this my father is an atheist, my mother is agnostic. I never attended church as a child, Christmas was about commercialism and Santa, Easter was about the Easter Bunny.
I am now a praticing Catholic, found the Church at about 15. In all honesty it is almost like if you want your kid to be an atheist when they get older raise them with religion and vice versa :lol
I really do find that wird.
I am now a praticing Catholic, found the Church at about 15. In all honesty it is almost like if you want your kid to be an atheist when they get older raise them with religion and vice versa :lol
I really do find that wird.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I think the important thing would be having some ceremony where we can get the family together and everyone can watch our kid have something done to them by some holy person, and then go get cake afterwords...we may be alright :lolbesada said:
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Realistically, I think you're probably going to be on the "losing" end of this RubxQub, which isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen. Being in a relationship means that sometimes you have to go along with your partner, even if you don't absolutely agree with it.
However, I will ask that you evaluate how much your partner is devoted to you as well. Is she willing to do something she doesn't agree with just because you feel it is the right thing? I'll propose a hypothetical situation: let's say that you want your son to be circumcised and your wife absolutely does not. You argue that it is better to have it done early, so the child won't remember the pain associated with the procedure. You are essentially unwilling to compromise on this.
Would your Wife be willing to allow you to circumcise your child despite her strong feelings against it, just because you truly feel it is right?
If she would, then letting your child be raised Catholic isn't that big of a deal, really.
Also, I should say that this is coming from an uncircumcised Atheist.
However, I will ask that you evaluate how much your partner is devoted to you as well. Is she willing to do something she doesn't agree with just because you feel it is the right thing? I'll propose a hypothetical situation: let's say that you want your son to be circumcised and your wife absolutely does not. You argue that it is better to have it done early, so the child won't remember the pain associated with the procedure. You are essentially unwilling to compromise on this.
Would your Wife be willing to allow you to circumcise your child despite her strong feelings against it, just because you truly feel it is right?
If she would, then letting your child be raised Catholic isn't that big of a deal, really.
Also, I should say that this is coming from an uncircumcised Atheist.
RubxQub said:
UU is good about that sort of thing. Most UU congregationalists come from other churches and other faiths, and they've done a good job in giving those people the ritual they are looking for while still keeping the church's "mind" open to new things.
If you're looking for your kids to be exposed to a wide variety of religious opinion, I can't think of a better place for them than a UU church. Heck, UU even welcomes atheists with open arms.
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