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[Ramenman]

So basically KZ2 invading every other thread prior to release was fine, but now that it's out absolutely everything about it should remain in one single thread ? Interesting... *takes notes*

 

[shongololo]

One of the main reasons Mario, Halo, Zelda, Pokémon and other games of their caliber are so popular is because they are easy to pick up. Having a set of extremely strong core gameplay mechanics is what will make or break a game and for a FPS control is paramount. The controls just feel right and do not require the average user to fight with them.

Spot on my man. Far too much pseudo-analyst drivel in this thread, Killzone 2 didn't sell particularly well because it's not a very good FPS. Looks lovely and all but the fundamentals of controls and combat were poorly executed.

 

[pswii60]

A lot of people on the web feel Sony has lost it this generation when it comes to creating first party Halo-sized sales hits.

But, in reality and historically, the vast majority of Sony's Playstation "mega-hits" have come from third parties. GTA, MGS, Resident Evil etc.

Outside of Gran Turismo, Sony's first party hasn't had much in the way of a Halo-sized sales hit.

BUT, as Phil Harrison always said, this wasn't how they worked anyway. The first party was always there to provide a complete 'portfolio' of quality games spanning all genres, rather than to create big hits.


I also think the demo was a factor against Killzone 2. I played it through and felt it was 'just another' FPS but with nice graphics. Very grey but with the odd colourful lense flare. Annoyingly sluggish controls. Why buy it? Well, I did because of the GAF-hype, but the demo certainly didn't convince me.

 

[dalyr95]

I don't see how MP puts you at a disadvantage, play the ranked games where you play with similar ranks, that way no-one has an unfair advantage, plus you can level up easily, get 1 or 2 decent rounds in and you'll go up a rank

 

[Lince]

Looks lovely and all but the fundamentals of controls and combat were poorly executed.

funny I thought controls and combat made KZ2 campaign stand out from the rest, you earn your frags in KZ2. I might be in the minority here.

 

[Gadfly]

Seems whenever I see complaints about KZ2 not getting enough marketing, it's always "waaah! it didn't have 7-eleven promotions and special mountain dew!" etc. etc.


Stop comparing it to Halo. MS could afford to push Halo like that because they have a lot of money and they knew they'd get it back in spades. They weren't advertising it to push it from 1 million units to 4 or whatever. They were pushing for the extra 1 million or so, after the initial 3 million or whatever that they knew they'd be getting. Halo 3 was going to sell several million on release no matter what.

In case you haven't noticed, Sony doesn't exactly have buckets of cash anymore. Everything they got from PS2 is gone and then some. And yet they poured millions into KZ2 and its development, including the marketing.

Yes, the marketing. Killzone 2 was more than being a single huge-selling game. It was about "proving" the visuals of the PS3 and getting people to buy the PS3 early based on its supposed potential, based on the trailers we saw that first time around. It was something for fans to hold on to and point to, something to help them justify their purchase of a $500-$600 machine even back on Day 1. It was one of the main sticking points as far as insisting the PS3 would somehow "easily outshine" the 360 visually sometime down the road. This works even on people who were never going to buy Killzone 2, ever. It's not hard to look at the graphics of one thing and start imagining the possibilities for the games that you do like. It happens all the time. And that's what Sony was counting on when they showed us Killzone 2 so early, and the GT footage for 10 minutes, and so on.

I don't think anybody at Sony could have hoped for KZ2 to put up Halo numbers. Especially by the time the game was coming out.. again, it was too little, too late. Even Sony had to recognize that MS had successfully rounded-up the shooters onto their console and built their base around it.

Let me ask you: how many millions more would Sony have had to put into KZ2 marketing to get those kinds of numbers? Even if you falsely believe that with enough marketing you can sell anything to anybody, how much do you think it would cost?

I think Sony has some decent information on who is buying their console, and who is going to buy a game like Killzone. It could be that the userbase simply isn't there for it to sell 2 million in the US, even with tons of marketing. For them to reach 2 million sold in the US, what would it have taken? How much would it take to convince people to buy a PS3 and a sequel to a game they probably didn't even know about, or saw reviews of it or heard it sucked?

But seriously, cut it with the "Sony didn't market this game" crap. They did as much as they reasonably could have. Maybe the commercial wasn't the best ever, but would a slightly better commercial have pushed even 400,000 more units? Get real.

Wait a minute, I thought Microsoft was "paid" for this. The same way that Disney is paid by BK or MD for animation theme toys. Not the other way around.

 

[shongololo]

funny I thought controls and combat made KZ2 campaign stand out from the rest, you earn your frags in KZ2. I might be in the minority here.

You fight the controls in order to take down pretty mundane AI opposition. I guess you could describe that as 'earning frags', I'd just describe it as a poor game. It certainly doesn't stand out from anything in that department, there are plenty of FPS that suffer similar issues.

 

[guidop]

Imo if this was last year it would have sold double what is has - recession ftl

 

[shadowsdarknes]

You fight the controls in order to take down pretty mundane AI opposition. I guess you could describe that as 'earning frags', I'd just describe it as a poor game. It certainly doesn't stand out from anything in that department, there are plenty of FPS that suffer similar issues.

I did not fight the controls. Nor was I fighting mundane AI.
Funny how all the reviews mention smart and dynamic AI.
But to you, it's a poor game .

just gtfo :lol

 

[gtj1092]

COD4.

And how many copy did that sell and is KZ2 expected to outsell one of the best selling games of the generation. Plus I'm pretty sure COD4 trails pretty significantly behind the 360 version.

 

[brain_stew]

Imo if this was last year it would have sold double what is has - recession ftl

Really now, has it come to this?

Well I guess you all have your excuse for your favourite bombas for the next 18 months at least.

 

[mujun]

So basically KZ2 invading every other thread prior to release was fine, but now that it's out absolutely everything about it should remain in one single thread ? Interesting... *takes notes*

you and me man, lets don capes and fight hypocrisy together!

 

[Masklinn]

Sony has lost it this generation

.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

you and me man, lets don capes and fight hypocrisy together!

Your name is perfect for a crusader against hypocrisy!

 

[TEH-CJ]

Lmao people still bitching about the controls? are you fucking serious??

dont make me take a vid of me playing on elite and killing every helghast with precise headshots.

 

[Psychotext]

dont make me take a vid of me playing on elite and killing every helghast with precise headshots.

...and some people can juggle cut throat razors, what difference does what you said make to the average player?

 

[Rolf NB]

funny I thought controls and combat made KZ2 campaign stand out from the rest, you earn your frags in KZ2. I might be in the minority here.

You and me both. At least we've played the game and could speak with authority.

 

[Rolf NB]

...and some people can juggle cut throat razors, what difference does what you said make to the average player?

You should be happy as a gamer that some games can still escape the casual-friendly trap and demand some honing of skills before you can blow through them.

Killzone 2 does not aim the gun for you, you have to do it yourself. That's what makes it so interesting to me among the modern wonders of magnetic aim, especially in MP, but in the campaign as well. I just like having the act of playing a videogame in my videogames. At the same time I can see the casual I-only-want-to-experience-the-story non-gamers getting frustrated when they can't win by looking in the general direction of a target and pressing a button.

Mechanics-wise, Killzone 2 is not a mass-market game, and the demo already made that clear. I still would have expected it to clear 1 million sales in the US by now. It's unfortunate that the US population hates the PS3 so much.

 

[shongololo]

I did not fight the controls. Nor was I fighting mundane AI.
Funny how all the reviews mention smart and dynamic AI.
But to you, it's a poor game .

just gtfo :lol

Lol indeed. The controls are horrible, play a selection of good console FPS's to find out what I mean by that. The AI is average at best. I don't recall many reviews gushing about the AI but then I'm able to form opinions independently of reviews. So, yeah, to me it's a poor game in as much as I didn't enjoy playing through it. That's likely why it sold poorly. If you're still struggling with this I can go through it again slowly.

 

[acm2000]

i tried the demo, i didnt like it much, the pad f*cking sucks for FPS, and controls too slow, might get it when i can find it for £10 or so just to play through the story tho, i imagine alot of people tried the demo and thought the same

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

So what exactly is the issue with KZ2's controls? Too sensitive? Not sensitive enough? Huge dead zone? Iron sight with no crosshair? Poor turning speed?

 

[guggnichso]

KZ2 was a good shooter with generic sp leveldesign, controls that not everyone liked and a completely unbalanced mp mode.

First week playing kz2 online was great, after that it bekame a complete clusterfuck with rockets and grenadelaunchers used by everyone and the god awful assault class.

Nevertheless, it was never an outstanding game, except graphics wise. I hope sony utilizes the graphics engine GG built for enough other games to make the investment worthwile.

Concerning the sales figuers: Brilliant games bomb sometimes, bad games sometimes sell a shitload.

KZ2 is neither brilliant, nor bad. It's a good shooter, and nearly all of the things it does wrong are design flaws that seem to be made out of inexperience. If you compare KZ2 to KZ1, GG have come a long way. I'm looking forward to their next games, hoping they again learned valuable lessons here.

As for the hype and the overagressive fanboyism surrounding this game - I can't really understand it. KZ2 is praised as the best shooter ever in A LOT of threads in this forum, and this gets on my nervs. Especialy mulitplayer wise, L4D, TF2 and Halo3 are way better than this.

But to each his own.

 

[Rolf NB]

So what exactly is the issue with KZ2's controls? Too sensitive? Not sensitive enough? Huge dead zone? Iron sight with no crosshair? Poor turning speed?

Very little auto-aim. Almost none on Elite difficulty. Almost none in multiplayer.

 

[Psychotext]

You should be happy as a gamer that some games can still escape the casual-friendly trap and demand some honing of skills before you can blow through them.

Killzone 2 does not aim the gun for you, you have to do it yourself.

There's a simple solution for that though. Hardcore difficulty modes for the "hardcore" and friendly controls / autoaim etc for the "casuals" in normal difficulty. Both sets of players get what they want.

 

[-viper-]

And lulz @ the KZ2 AI is crap comments. Clearly you haven't played the game.

Very little auto-aim. Almost none on Elite difficulty. Almost none in multiplayer.

In other words, everyone sucks at the game and dislikes it.

 

[guggnichso]

Too sensitive? Not sensitive enough? Huge dead zone?

All of the above.

The dead zone is too big. Near the dead zone, aiming is not sensitiv enough, further away from the deadzone, it suddenly gets too sensitive.

The patches helped a lot in shrinking the deadzone.

Nevertheless, KZ2 is still very playable, if you take the time to get used to it - and then the controls feel great.

Most people however don't enjoy when a game strays from established controlling standards.

 

[Rolf NB]

There's a simple solution for that though. Hardcore difficulty modes for the "hardcore" and friendly controls / autoaim etc for the "casuals" in normal difficulty. Both sets of players get what they want.

Killzone 2 does exactly that for the single-player campaign. The lower difficulty modes have more auto-aim.

MP is the same very low level of auto-aim for everybody.

As per usual, it'd be so awesome if people only made statements about things they know to be true.

 

[Psychotext]

Killzone 2 does exactly that for the single-player campaign. The lower difficulty modes have more auto-aim.

Except the controls still feel like ass in the normal difficulty... so it can't be just the auto aim we're talking about.

 

[-viper-]

funny I thought controls and combat made KZ2 campaign stand out from the rest, you earn your frags in KZ2. I might be in the minority here.

Exactly. KZ2 has some of the best gunplay out there. But I suppose for people like the game, they need a game where the gun automatically snaps on braindead AI (just like COD4).

 

[guggnichso]

As per usual, it'd be so awesome if people only made statements about things they know to be true.

Yes, so please stop telling people that the issues with KZ2's controls are the lack of auto-aim.

 

[Forsete]

Not 1 million? Reviewers need to revisit this game and fix the scores.

 

[.GqueB.]

Still...

 

[KernelPanic]

Most people however don't enjoy when a game strays from established controlling standards.

And that's pretty much the story. I don't play FPS much at all on console but I had little problems with KZ2 controls. The controls weren't like CoD so people passed. Much like DS3 supposedly sucks for FPS because its not the 360 pad. Gamers are creatures of habit.

I remember when Lair came out, the controls were universally deemed as "shit" whereas I did the tutorial missions and 10-15 minutes later I got the hang of it. Not to say the game didn't other problems but I couldn't fathom why any person with hand-eye co-ordination couldn't get the controls, especially "professional reviews" who play way more games than I do (and get paid for it).

 

[JudgeN]

KZ2 was a good shooter with generic sp leveldesign, controls that not everyone liked and a completely unbalanced mp mode.

Id really like to hear what about KZ2 SP level design was generic? Actually just explain what the word generic level design means. When does a level design become "Generic"?

 

[Rolf NB]

Id really like to hear what about KZ2 SP level design was generic? Actually just explain what the word generic level design means. When does a level design become "Generic"?

It's a function of marketing budget.

 

[guggnichso]

Id really like to hear what about KZ2 SP level design was generic? Actually just explain what the word generic level design means.

In all KZ2-levels, you went from the start to the finish in a straight way and shot everything IN your way.

There were only some minor variations to "go straight ahead and kill everything":

Spoiler

- defending the plaza against oncoming enemies
- defending some oncoming enemies with your two groop members whose name I forgot, the native american looking and the annoing ass
- driving 30 sec with a tank
- running around with the exoskeleton
- the radec fight

That was it. The rest was just going in a straight line from start to finish (and one time back again). THAT is generic level design for me.

Please mind that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS. Graphics were gorgeous all the way.

EDIT: Maybe my english is bad and the word generic doesn't actually mean what I think it does. I mean bland, uninspired and mediocre.

 

[shongololo]

And lulz @ the KZ2 AI is crap comments. Clearly you haven't played the game.

Ah, the 'You've not played the game' shtick enters stage left and takes a bow. Nice.

Also, not sure anyone described the AI as crap, I described it as mundane which I find to be accurate. The AI is decidedly inferior to Halo CE and the original FEAR, games that are nearly a decade old now. The AI is indistinguishable from most other run of the mill shooters, hence mundane. Strip away the undeniably pretty graphics and KZ2 boils down to a dull game. IMO, like - in case that needed pointing out.

 

[JudgeN]

In all KZ2-levels, you went from the start to the finish in a straight way and shot everything IN your way.

There were only some minor variations to "go straight ahead and kill everything":

Spoiler

- defending the plaza against oncoming enemies
- defending some oncoming enemies with your two groop members whose name I forgot, the native american looking and the annoing ass
- driving 30 sec with a tank
- running around with the exoskeleton
- the radec fight

That was it. The rest was just going in a straight line from start to finish (and one time back again). THAT is generic level design for me.

Please mind that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS. Graphics were gorgeous all the way. Guess the genre could just be filled with bland level design and Id believe that cause it didn't seem any different from any other FPS ive played. Did have a ton more action though.

EDIT: Maybe my english is bad and the word generic doesn't actually mean what I think it does. I mean bland, uninspired and mediocre.

So pretty much the same as every corridor FPS ever created, they are all run though and kill shit. Guess most genre is filled with bland level design (probably the case considering all games have to play the same now a days).

 

[joey_z]

Having skimmed through a bit of this thread now I'd like to add a bit myself:

To the people that have a problem with the sales discussion of this game -- Note that a game is worthy of discussion if it doesn't sell as well as most people think it would. It's that simple. Anything in the gaming industry that seems odd or interesting should not be a discouraged topic on a gaming forum. You might say that it doesn't deserve it's own thread, yet 11 pages say otherwise.

And why does it bother some of you that sales threads just pool fanboys together. Don't go through them if your blood pressure is that sensitive to what you think is trolling.

Also, it's not about how much you spend in your marketing, but what you do with that money. Halo 3 could get away with artistic ads because it had brand recognition and was riding on the coat tails of two of the most successful first person shooters ever. Killzone 2 should not have relied on that bullet trailer. It didn't take out time to differentiate itself or give anyone good enough reason to invest in it. Despite Gears of War 2 not looking as technically good as Killzone 2, the GoW ads would tell you otherwise. Showing off Killzone 2's graphics should not have been the aim of its marketing because everyone lies. Your average consumer would not give the slightest fuck because even though Killzone 2 may actually look a lot closer to it's ads than most games do, a person that does not know of Killzone 2 would not know about its technical achievement, ultimately treating the ads like he/she would treat any other game ad.

 

[Gantz]

So pretty much the same as every corridor FPS ever created, they are all run though and kill shit. Guess most genre is filled with bland level design (probably the case considering all games have to play the same now a days).

Pretty much. That's why I'm burnt out on FPSes especially on consoles. I can't believe this thread is going 11 pages. KZ2 is so overrated by fanboys and bombed in the world marketplace. KZ2 would have done better if they didn't spend most of their time on the bull trailers then trying to live up to it while the generic gameplay and dumb AI suffered. Also it would have been nice if it wasn't another generic space marine FPS and they actually introduced some new innovative gameplay and world to set it apart from other generic shooters.

 

[guggnichso]

So pretty much the same as every corridor FPS ever created, they are all run though and kill shit. Guess most genre is filled with bland level design (probably the case considering all games have to play the same now a days).

Well, Resistance 2 (big monster fights), Bioshock (Big Daddy Fights), Halo (excessive use of vehicle sections) and Half Life 2 (puzzels using the physics engine) do a very good job in shipping around this issue. Even duke3d tried to get around that with implementing under water levels. CoD4 had the sniper mission, helicopter rides and the disturbing dying soldier scenes. Even Turok on the N64 tried to use jump'n'run-sequences to alleviate this (but failed miserably).

In KZ2, there's duck, cover & shoot and that's about it. Doom 3 had the same problem in forcing you to do exactely the same thing for a too big portion of the game to stay interesting.

An excellent, outstanding game forces you to play in different and entertaining ways with the given concept, at least, that's my opinion. That's why the mario series is such a brilliant gameplay experience, for example. That's why Action-Adventures are so popular, because they combine different things into one playing experience. A shooter, that lets people run from a to b doing nothing but ducking behind cover, shoot the wave of enemies, run a bit further, do the same, rinse and repeat for 10 hours is not what I would call outstanding in any way.

 

[ghstwrld]

So basically KZ2 invading every other thread prior to release was fine, but now that it's out absolutely everything about it should remain in one single thread ? Interesting... *takes notes*

:lol

 

[mujun]

Your name is perfect for a crusader against hypocrisy!

should i change it to "jibun o tana ni ageru"?

 

[JudgeN]

Well, Resistance 2 (big monster fights), Bioshock (Big Daddy Fights), Halo (excessive use of vehicle sections) and Half Life 2 (puzzels using the physics engine) do a very good job in shipping around this issue. Even duke3d tried to get around that with implementing under water levels. CoD4 had the sniper mission, helicopter rides and the disturbing dying soldier scenes. Even Turok on the N64 tried to use jump'n'run-sequences to alleviate this (but failed miserably).

In KZ2, there's duck, cover & shoot and that's about it. Doom 3 had the same problem in forcing you to do exactely the same thing for a too big portion of the game to stay interesting.

An excellent, outstanding game forces you to play in different and entertaining ways with the given concept, at least, that's my opinion. That's why the mario series is such a brilliant gameplay experience, for example. That's why Action-Adventures are so popular, because they combine different things into one playing experience. A shooter, that lets people run from a to b doing nothing but ducking behind cover, shoot the wave of enemies, run a bit further, do the same, rinse and repeat for 10 hours is not what I would call outstanding in any way.

Guess this is were we are going to just have to disagree, Fighting a big boss monster doesn't magically make R2 game design less linear. Its just a bigger monster that I will still run in and shoot. Same thing with the big daddies in Bioshock another enemy that takes more bullets to kill but for higher reward ( big daddy are like KZ2 heavy mobs). So forth and so on but that's just my opinion the bottom line is in corridor shooters you go from one place to the next and you kill shit.

 

[Kuroyume]

Well, Resistance 2 (big monster fights), Bioshock (Big Daddy Fights), Halo (excessive use of vehicle sections) and Half Life 2 (puzzels using the physics engine) do a very good job in shipping around this issue. Even duke3d tried to get around that with implementing under water levels. CoD4 had the sniper mission, helicopter rides and the disturbing dying soldier scenes. Even Turok on the N64 tried to use jump'n'run-sequences to alleviate this (but failed miserably).

In KZ2, there's duck, cover & shoot and that's about it. Doom 3 had the same problem in forcing you to do exactely the same thing for a too big portion of the game to stay interesting.

An excellent, outstanding game forces you to play in different and entertaining ways with the given concept, at least, that's my opinion. That's why the mario series is such a brilliant gameplay experience, for example. That's why Action-Adventures are so popular, because they combine different things into one playing experience. A shooter, that lets people run from a to b doing nothing but ducking behind cover, shoot the wave of enemies, run a bit further, do the same, rinse and repeat for 10 hours is not what I would call outstanding in any way.

Killzone 2 has its own "Big Daddys," boss fights, an on rails section, a tank section, and a section where you're in a mech...

 

[mrbagdt]

I'm not really familiar with sales-age, but these numbers come from retailers who participate in the NPD, correct? Wal-mart doesn't report to NPD? Thanks for any info.

 

[guggnichso]

Killzone 2 has its own "Big Daddys," boss fights, an on rails section, and a section where you're in a mech...

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post before that.

Btw. I don't think the heavies are in any way compearable to the big daddies. To take out a big daddy, you actually had to use some tactics and your environment.

To kill a KZ2 heavy unit, you dock behind cover, you shoot his hat, shoot his backpack, do it again, boom, heavy explodes.

Show me anyone who managed to kill the first big daddy in bioshock just by running and shooting and I show you either a liar or a god of gaming.

 

[Rolf NB]

In all KZ2-levels, you went from the start to the finish in a straight way and shot everything IN your way.

There were only some minor variations to "go straight ahead and kill everything":

Spoiler

- defending the plaza against oncoming enemies
- defending some oncoming enemies with your two groop members whose name I forgot, the native american looking and the annoing ass
- driving 30 sec with a tank
- running around with the exoskeleton
- the radec fight

That was it. The rest was just going in a straight line from start to finish (and one time back again). THAT is generic level design for me.

Please mind that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS. Graphics were gorgeous all the way.

EDIT: Maybe my english is bad and the word generic doesn't actually mean what I think it does. I mean bland, uninspired and mediocre.

So what you're clamoring for is backtracking through levels you already played?

Now that's something you only expect to see in "discussions" about PS3 exclusives.

 

[guggnichso]

So what you're clamoring for is backtracking through levels you already played?

Now that's something you only expect to see in "discussions" about PS3 exclusives.

You obviously didn't read my text at all. And there's next to zero backtracking in KZ2.

Now that kind of behaviour is something you only expect to see in "discussions" about PS3 exclusives.

 

[Rolf NB]

You obviously didn't read my text at all. Now that's something you only expect to see in "discussions" about PS3 exclusives.

I did. You are wrong. Your complaint is ridiculous.