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[A Link to the Past]

I mean, regardless of the source the video clearly shows her lying.

Elaborate. What is she lying about? Why is it that the only posts you've made in this thread have done nothing to elaborate on YOUR (not Sargon's) views? What is in the video?

Not to defend it but it's still kind of a new thing for the majority of us. I'll be honest with you and share a story. I'm from a super small town in upstate NY (graduating class was around 100). Nearly 99% white. "Gay" was synonymous with lame on the East Coast. Massive part of conversation for teen guys over there, at least back in the 2000s.

Moved to Los Angeles when I was 17 and joined GAF around the same time. It was like living on another planet. I remember taking a bus down from Hollywood to Santa Monica for work and passing through West Hollywood when there was a "Sailors, board me!" billboard with two men embracing in front of a cruise ship. There were literally 0 openly gay classmates when I was coming up. Anyway, eventually worked with openly gay people and worked it out of my vocabulary because at some point you understand how ignorant you were/don't realize how it affects others. I remember being on GAF through the times where T Surprise was a popular meme. It's the same thing. The majority of people are still figuring it out.

Trans people aren't patient enough to wait. People need to be called out every time it happens.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

so its not a lie?

Do some critical thinking, damnit.

She says she learned a lot of videogames while working on his tropes videos:

- Of course she learned a lot, she probably played a lot of games she would have never played before. Does this contradicts that "she loves videogames"? Nope

She says she dosn't like to shoot dudes and blow heads:

- Like a lot of people, who also loves videogames! you can not like a particular genre or type of game and still loves them. Like not liking action movies dosn't mean you don't love videogames.

Yeah, she is not a fan, but dosn't mean she dosn't like them or love them, I understand as more than she likes them but is not like she has a very deep knowledge of them.

 

[Mman235]

I mean, regardless of the source the video clearly shows her lying.

Zzzz

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=149544653&postcount=1383

 

[Jumplion]

I mean, regardless of the source the video clearly shows her lying.

Regardless of whether or not people actually saw the source of the video that explains the context, dumbasses will still harp on this as if it even matters.

 

[DrBo42]

Trans people aren't patient enough to wait. People need to be called out every time it happens.

Not asking you to wait. Ah nevermind.

 

[cambiata]

I mean, regardless of the source the video clearly shows her lying.

Dude, there was a time maybe 10 years back when I would have said I'm not a gamer, even though I played video games religiously as a kid, and even though I play video games a lot right now. In fact, with everything that happened with gamergate, I actually would say now that I'm not a "gamer" because I'm not a hate filled pus-bag. But I play video games every day, I raid three times a week and I buy every Bioware game that comes out. Anyone saying "i'm not a gamer" is not lying if they also say they love games, especially since (and this is important) people's tastes and hobbies change over time.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You are right, if my friend only makes homophobic jokes about gay people, he's probably not homophobic because I refuse to believe that the jokes he makes do not reflect on him.

He's now trying making racist jokes about interracial dating. What a progressive, I assume without evidence.

I'm not Delta

And no, unless your friend is being paid or acting out as a homophobe for some sort of play or movie, he doesn't get a pass. Way to twist my argument, though. If your friend does it when you're just hanging out...he's probably not acting. But keep using your strawfriend, I'm sure he'll pull through.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Not asking you to wait. Ah nevermind.

I said that they shouldn't need to be patient about this. If Matt and Trey want to do or say transphobic things, whatever, or even if they're ignorant, they can and should be shamed for it.

 

[More_Badass]

Do some critical thinking, damnit.

She says she learned a lot of videogames while working on his tropes videos:

- Of course she learned a lot, she probably played a lot of games she would have never played before. Does this contradicts that "she loves videogames"? Nope

She says she dosn't like to shoot dudes and blow heads:

- Like a lot of people, who also loves videogames! you can not like a particular genre or type of game and still loves them. Like not liking action movies dosn't mean you don't love videogames.

Yeah, she is not a fan, but dosn't mean she dosn't like them or love them, I understand as more than she likes them but is not like she has a very deep knowledge of them.

We're at "she's not a gamer/doesn't actually play games" again? I haven't been following

 

[Nekofrog]

I'm not Delta

And no, unless your friend is being paid or acting out as a homophobe for some sort of play or movie, he doesn't get a pass. Way to twist my argument, though. If your friend does it when you're just hanging out...he's probably not acting. But keep using your strawfriend, I'm sure he'll pull through.

Trey and Matt aren't just acting. They are the principal writers of the material. Stop using this argument.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Matt and Trey are not Carroll O'Connor.

 

[FiggyCal]

Trey and Matt aren't just acting. They are the principal writers of the material. Stop using this argument.

Do you really think that Trey and Matt also hate Jews and gingers?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Trey and Matt aren't just acting. They are the principal writers of the material. Stop using this argument.

Yup, they're content creators. They also act out their characters. Let's start assuming they're racist transphobic people because their show touches on controversial material!

Wait...that's not how humanity works..

Do you really think that Trey and Matt also hate Jews and gingers?

According to Neko, yeah they probably are. They also hate disabled people, Lordie, the Government, Canada, Religion, and just everything under the sun.

 

[bootski]

Trey and Matt aren't just acting. They are the principal writers of the material. Stop using this argument.

unless you're willing to throw every comedian who uses race and gender based humor under the same bus from george carlin to chris rock to russell peters, i'd say you're way off base. if you're offended by the content of their show, that's one thing, but to try to paint all creators of offensive parody material as bigots,racists,sexists etc is completely off base, no matter how much you stand behind it.

 

[AlucardGV]

Do you really think that Trey and Matt also hate Jews and gingers?

and barbra streisand

 

[Nekofrog]

Yup, they're content creators. They also act out their characters. Let's start assuming they're racist transphobic people because their show touches on controversial material!

Wait...that's not how humanity works..



According to Neko, yeah they probably are. They also hate disabled people, Lordie, the Government, Canada, Religion, and just everything under the sun.

Do you really think that Trey and Matt also hate Jews and gingers?

If this had been a show in the 1940s, then yes, I would think they hate Jews due to what the Jewish people were enduring.

You are equating an oppressed minority (transgendered) with people of privilege, false equivalency ahoy.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

If this had been a show in the 1940s, then yes, I would think they hate Jews due to what the Jewish people were enduring.

You are equating an oppressed minority (transgendered) with people of privilege, false equivalency ahoy.

Is not like the only minority they made fun of, and not the last one...

If you don't like the jew example there are plenty others.

 

[ken_matthews]

If you value making the industry more open to women, I question the usefulness of taking an accusatory and hostile approach when studies have shown this only encourages people to redouble on their views. See this study on the effects of different messaging approaches on prejudice, for example:



http://www.psychologicalscience.org...ronic-effects-of-anti-prejudice-messages.html

Full study here: http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/w...ads/2011/12/Legault-Gutsell-Inzlicht-2011.pdf

That's a rather interesting study. A few pages back I posted a link to another article that also deals with this issue in the peripheral. Both make claims that are far from intuitive, and I think that is the point. The conditions that fostered this issue are complex and the discussion is marred with assumptions that don't hold up to scientific scrutiny. I think if we refrain from pointing fingers and castigating respectful disagreement (and even bad-mannered disagreement), and instead use a scientific/evidence based approach to focus on how social constructs and perceptions develop, we might have a better idea of how to to remedy this problem. It's difficult to get others to think critical or emphatically about any issue, but they are both sure ways to defeat bigotry and promote positive social change.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

If this had been a show in the 1940s, then yes, I would think they hate Jews due to what the Jewish people were enduring.

You are equating an oppressed minority (transgendered) with people of privilege, false equivalency ahoy.

.......wait, did you just compare what happened to Jewish people in the Holocaust to Transgender people of today?

That what transgender(Btw, transgendered can be seen as offensive) go through today is like what Jewish people went through in the 40's?

 

[bootski]

.......wait, did you just compare what happened to Jewish people in the Holocause to Transgender people of today?

That what transgender(Btw, transgendered can be seen as offensive) go through today is like what Jewish people went through in the 40's?

lol, i was just thinking that but omg he used false equivalence! he got you!

ridiculous argument aside, is the south park episode being discussed a new episode that came out after the cis one or just generally speaking prior to that?

 

[ken_matthews]

You do realize those characters were written by Matt and Trey, and by necessity a creation reflects the thoughts of its creator, right?

Transphobia, just like homophobia, racism, and sexism, don't have to be intentional to be.

I do not understand your criticism. Are you saying satirical social commentary is part of the problem? Are you saying humor is part of the problem?

 

[Michanical]

I'm not Delta

And no, unless your friend is being paid or acting out as a homophobe for some sort of play or movie, he doesn't get a pass. Way to twist my argument, though. If your friend does it when you're just hanging out...he's probably not acting. But keep using your strawfriend, I'm sure he'll pull through.

I know you aren't Delta!

They write and produce their show. They have total creative control. Any transphobic episode released is something they endorse. They often position themselves as the voice of reason in a situation, and they refused to do so on trans issues.

 

[MrHoot]

Nope!



Sure can! They use this show as a platform to espouse their own ignorant, entitled libertarian views almost every other episode. Stan and Kyle constantly act as stand-ins for their own voices; sometimes this is also delegated to other characters (Cartman) because their opinions aren't popular and they can get away with it by being "funny".

Their own body of work is the burden of proof. You are wrong, and it's okay to admit it.

No, I do not think this is necessarily true. Not in the case of satire at least. Did Matt and Trey do a shitty job on that episode ? Sure. Outright transphobic ? I don't think so. It's the same kind of debate I had with friends after the horrible Charlie massacre, about satire. Charlie panned a WHOLE array of people and were thus accused of either being islamophobes, but also antisemites when they were trashing the jewish/sionist community and whatnot "because they are responsible of what they publish".

If we went for the same line of thought about M. and T, they would be as well racist, sexist, homophobes

But sure, you want to use that as evidence of their misdeeds, fine. I could probably scrounge up commentaries if i had the patience. But I could also really simple take the episode they have done or at least their latest episode about gender identification which seems to have been way more widely accepted and even liked by several outlets from the LGBT community.

Anyway, I am backing out of this discussion as it's getting incredibly late, sorry. And apologies if I offended, it wasn't my intention. I guess we'll have to stay on "agree to disagree" but I wish you all good night and keep fighting your good fights

 

[Opto]

.......wait, did you just compare what happened to Jewish people in the Holocaust to Transgender people of today?

That what transgender(Btw, transgendered can be seen as offensive) go through today is like what Jewish people went through in the 40's?

Neko didn't mention the holocaust. 1940's America wasn't exactly super jewish friendly

 

[Nekofrog]

.......wait, did you just compare what happened to Jewish people in the Holocaust to Transgender people of today?

That what transgender(Btw, transgendered can be seen as offensive) go through today is like what Jewish people went through in the 40's?

No, that was your inferrence. I used it as an example of how a currently privileged class of people were at one time a subjugated minority, and thus, making fun of them during that time period would have been an obvious declaration of anti semitism.

When transgendered people are on an the same playing field some day, then you can make the argument that it's okay to make fun of everyone for the luls.

You are literally trying to twist my argument that is spelled out plain as day to win some arbitrary game; being intentionally obtuse about a subject like this is near the level of trolling.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I know you aren't Delta!

They write and produce their show. They have total creative control. Any transphobic episode released is something they endorse. They often position themselves as the voice of reason in a situation, and they refused to do so on trans issues.

Mhm, but recently they made a positive episode out of it(I linked it earlier, 'The CIssy'). The way I see it, they always choose a hot topic issue or social issue, and then just make an episode making fun of it or being judgemental of it. I dunno their thought processes on how they make episodes, though. But I certainly don't assume they're bigots.

No, that was your inferrence. I used it as an example of how a currently privileged class of people could, were at one time a subjugated minority, and thus, making fun of them during that time period would have been an obvious declaration of anti semitism.

When transgendered people are on an the same playing field some day, then you can make the argument that it's okay to make fun of everyone for the luls.

You are literally trying to twist my argument that is spelled out plain as day to win some arbitrary game; being intentionally obtuse about a subject like this is near the level of trolling.

That's my mistake for mistaking what you were trying to say, but I'm not the one trying to make weird comparisons to the 40's. If South Park existed in the 40's, it wouldn't even be aired or allowed to continue to exist.

 

[Michanical]

Mhm, but recently they made a positive episode out of it(I linked it earlier, 'The CIssy'). The way I see it, they always choose a hot topic issue or social issue, and then just make an episode making fun of it or being judgemental of it. I dunno their thought processes on how they make episodes, though. But I certainly don't assume they're bigots.

As I said in a previous statement: I think they've "evolved" on the issue, as many Americans have. That doesn't excuse the fact that they've never rebuked or commented on the horrible episodes and they way they've dealt with trans characters. The Mr./Mrs. Garrison joke was repeated over many, many episodes and used as an "arc" to poke fun at the trans issue.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

As I said in a previous statement: I think they've "evolved" on the issue, as many Americans have. That doesn't excuse the fact that they've never rebuked or commented on the horrible episodes and they way they've dealt with trans characters. The Mr./Mrs. Garrison joke was repeated over many, many episodes and used as an "arc" to poke fun at the trans issue.

I saw it as poking fun of Garrison herself. And they haven't 'owned up' to any of the other offensive things they've said either, let's not pretend it's only the trans things they've talked about is the only thing they haven't 'rebuked' or owned up on.

 

[Opto]

God this topic has gone off the rails and into the trees, and then into the mountains

 

[Michanical]

I saw it as poking fun of Garrison herself. And they haven't 'owned up' to any of the other offensive things they've said either, let's not pretend it's only the trans things they've talked about is the only thing they haven't 'rebuked' or owned up on.

I find it problematic, but I hear what you are saying. I'm can't be positive of their position currently, but their thinking at the time was bigoted.

 

[Nekofrog]

God this topic has gone off the rails and into the trees, and then into the mountains

Yeah, apologies. I'll leave it at what I have posted.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yeah, apologies. I'll leave it at what I have posted.

Same here.

 

[Jumplion]

I do not understand your criticism. Are you saying satirical social commentary is part of the problem? Are you saying humor is part of the problem?

Just watch this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzqQgAJd6Xo

It's a multilayered issue that gets tiring to explain over and over again. That video is the best one I have found to summarize the complexity of the issue.