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[MrHoot]

So they're allowed to say transphobic stuff and express transphobic views, but so long as they aren't actually transphobic, it's okay for them to do all of that? Like, if you're not racist, you can say the n-word?

They're allowed to do their show, yes, as they always had and try to have their take on it. And they can be criticized for it. I'm pretty sure they always are aware of them like regular creative adults. Again, if you want to pin every mistake of a creator as an integral part of his personality ("They made an episode about trans people i judge bad, THEY MUST BE TRANSPHOBIC"), I think that's dishonest and too simple.

That's how the world works. In the words of Neil Gaimann

If you accept -- and I do -- that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said.

 

[Mael]

It's very disconcerting how many of you are unwilling to look at comedy through the eyes of a minority. Comedy is a great tool to combat injustice. But at the same time, it can have the opposite effect when in the hands of the privileged. Look at political cartoons dealing with woman from 1900-1960. They all basically tell us how "suffrage is ruining women!" But it's comedy right? We should just deal with it?

Heck just look at caricatures circa 1890->1930, there's some pretty vile stuffs out there.
I guess we reached the quantum point where you can't in a offensive manner but since you say you didn't mean it it's ok.

 

[Jumplion]

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

Look, I get the feeling that you're coming from a decent place (at least I hope you are). You are conflating "making fun of" and "making fun with" and I'm pretty sure that's what people are taking issue with. But you need to understand the positions that marginalized groups are put in and how seemingly harmless jokes help reinforce shitty realities. This video is a great explanation of social critique and touches on jokes and stuff.

 

[DrBo42]

Do you understand what it means to be trans? I do, I'm trans, and I leave out of my apartment with weapons to defend myself in a "progressive" state like Massachusetts after a gang of teenage kids sent me to the ER because I was just walking by. When I was 16, I had to quit high school because the harassment and bullying I was getting since Grade 5 was too intense for me and my grades were reaching Ds and Fs.

You think the lives of trans is a joke? Do you understand what its like to be afraid almost everyday of your life because you are different? The way trans are portrayed in media is disgusting, its always the same joke about an over-masculine looking transwoman acting extreme feminine and everyone is laughing because "Hahaha, they're a freak for being different". The media always shows the idea that boys are suppose to look, act, and be interested in this and girls are suppose to look, act, and be interested in that, and if you cross that line, you're a freak and you deserve to be humiliated. That isn't funny, not to me and the other trans people who goes through the bullshit society toss at us everyday because we're different.

Again, it was a general statement without a SPECIFIC joke detailed or referenced. How is someone supposed to respond to this? It's fucked up how you're treated and I'm sorry that you have to endure what you do. I'm not going after you or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm not someone who jumps into a thread like this and posts that awful "You're offended, so fucking what?" jpg.

Look, I get the feeling that you're coming from a decent place (at least I hope you are). You are conflating "making fun of" and "making fun with" and I'm pretty sure that's what people are taking issue with. But you need to understand the positions that marginalized groups are put in and how seemingly harmless jokes help reinforce shitty realities. This video is a great explanation of social critique and touches on jokes and stuff.

Fair enough.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So what you're saying is that I have the 100% defensible right to call them transphobes

 

[delta25]

man, the more I read up on her the more I see a lot of damning evidence against her.

 

[A Link to the Past]

man, the more I read up on her the more I see a lot of damning evidence against her.

Do share

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So what you're saying is that I have the 100% defensible right to call them transphobes

You can, you'd be wrong, but it's your right to be wrong.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So they're allowed to say transphobic stuff and express transphobic views, but so long as they aren't actually transphobic, it's okay for them to do all of that? Like, if you're not racist, you can say the n-word?

So are they transphobic or they aren't transphobic?

They can't be both things at the same time. Making fun of something dosn't mean you actually hate it.

Is ok they did the episode? That's up to debate, sure. But do you actually know Trey Parker hate trans? Like he did a public stance on the theme and he actually hates them?

 

[Mael]

man, the more I read up on her the more I see a lot of damning evidence against her.

Wait a minute, I need to bring out my bingo card.

 

[mjp2417]

man, the more I read up on her the more I see a lot of damning evidence against her.

Go on...

 

[A Link to the Past]

So are they transphobic or they aren't transphobic?

They can't be both things at the same time. Making fun of something dosn't mean you actually hate it.

Is ok they did the episode? That's up to debate, sure. But do you actually know Trey Parker hate trans? Like he did a public stance on the theme and he actually hates them?

Apparently the only racists are Klansmen

No, a HUGE percentage people are transphobes. Transphobia is normal and is considered acceptable. I see nothing to suggest that a pair of comedians who made a really offensive episode making fun of trans people are this weird exception to how members of our society works.

You can, you'd be wrong, but it's your right to be wrong.

Brb, letting all of the trans people who took issue with the episode that they're wrong because a guy said they were

 

[Michanical]

They're allowed to do their show, yes, as they always had and try to have their take on it. And they can be criticized for it. I'm pretty sure they always are aware of them like regular creative adults. Again, if you want to pin every mistake of a creator as an integral part of his personality ("They made an episode about trans people i judge bad, THEY MUST BE TRANSPHOBIC"), I think that's dishonest and too simple.

That's how the world works. In the words of Neil Gaimann

No one here (from what I've read) is trying to censor them. If you give people the freedom to say whatever they want, then you have to accept the freedom of people to call them out on their shit and draw conclusions based on what they say. If the only joke you hear a friend make about gay people is homophobic, you can't really be faulted for believing that person is homophobic.

You are allowed to say "what he said is indefensible" without being a censor.

 

[DrBo42]

man, the more I read up on her the more I see a lot of damning evidence against her.

Don't do it. Just don't.

 

[Dryk]

Is ok they did the episode? That's up to debate, sure. But do you actually know Trey Parker hate trans? Like he did a public stance on the theme and he actually hates them?

That's not what transphobia is though

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Apparently the only racists are Klansmen

No, a HUGE percentage people are transphobes. Transphobia is normal and is considered acceptable. I see nothing to suggest that a pair of comedians who made a really offensive episode making fun of trans people are this weird exception to how members of our society works.

No?

At least where I live...

That's not what transphobia is though

antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people

?

 

[MrHoot]

So what you're saying is that I have the 100% defensible right to call them transphobes

Sure, that doesn't make it true, or you automatically right or your argument solid but sure, you have that right. I have explained to you though that you don't have the right to censor them nor is it sensible in my book to do so. Because yes, I do value freedom of speech as a core important value of modern society that serves everyone, minorities and all

 

[Michanical]

Don't do it. Just don't.

Personally, I'm curious what he has to say. It's weird that he'd just make a post like that and let it hang out there like a stale fart.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No?

At least where I live...

If you live in the US, you're wrong. Transphobia is normal. Most states don't let trans people use the appropriate bathrooms, most states allow businesses to discriminate against trans people, and many politicians are openly anti-trans. It's normal.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Brb, letting all of the trans people who took issue with the episode that they're wrong because a guy said they were

So you have factual evidence that Matt and Trey are actively transphobic outside of an episode that you found distasteful? Because I never said that the episode couldn't be offensive, alot of their episodes can be offensive to different types of people.

 

[DrBo42]

Personally, I'm curious what he has to say. It's weird that he'd just make a post like that and let it hang out there like a stale fart.

Haha it always ends the same way. Some ridiculous "evidence" and then 20 quote replies and a ban.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you have factual evidence that Matt and Trey are actively transphobic outside of an episode that you found distasteful? Because I never said that the episode couldn't be offensive, alot of their episodes can be offensive to different types of people.

Saying transphobic shit is suitable to say that someone is transphobic. If you use the t-slur, you're probably transphobic. Your interpretation is equally pulled from your ass, except in my case, the audience they play to views trans people as punchlines.

 

[Nekofrog]

Sure, that doesn't make it true, or you automatically right or your argument solid but sure, you have that right. I have explained to you though that you don't have the right to censor them nor is it sensible in my book to do so. Because yes, I do value freedom of speech as a core important value of modern society that serves everyone, minorities and all

Nobody is calling for censorship. In fact, multiple times throughout this saga we've declared that that we're not calling for censorship.

What we're doing is calling them out on their bullcrap as two highly privileged individuals shitting on one of the worst treated group of people in this country. We don't have to know them personally to know if they're transphobic; they've presented their arguments and it's easy enough to hear what they're saying and base off of that.

What we're doing is highlighting the negative effect that these people are having on transgendered people, just so you can have a laugh. I hope the chuckle is worth it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Sure, that doesn't make it true, or you automatically right or your argument solid but sure, you have that right. I have explained to you though that you don't have the right to censor them nor is it sensible in my book to do so. Because yes, I do value freedom of speech as a core important value of modern society that serves everyone, minorities and all

So if I shame them, I'm censoring them

Let's make this more on-topic, you sound like Anita's critics who complain that she's trying to censor game devs.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Again, it was a general statement without a SPECIFIC joke detailed or referenced. How is someone supposed to respond to this? It's fucked up how you're treated and I'm sorry that you have to endure what you do. I'm not going after you or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm not someone who jumps into a thread like this and posts that awful "You're offended, so fucking what?" jpg.

What I'm saying is that people need to understand that words can be powerful, even if they're a joke. There is a limit to everything, a line that shouldn't be crossed, and for good reason. There are ways to make joke without crossing that line, and hell it can be as raunchy as any other adult joke, but once you cross the line you leave the realm of funny to the realm of hurtful. Comedians have to and should constantly think through their implications and make sure they don't cross that line because what they say can make some not only feel offended, but even depressed and distressed.

 

[Michanical]

Haha it always ends the same way. Some ridiculous "evidence" and then 20 quote replies and a ban.

Look, I've got a bingo card I am desperate to fill out. ;P

So you have factual evidence that Matt and Trey are actively transphobic outside of an episode that you found distasteful? Because I never said that the episode couldn't be offensive, alot of their episodes can be offensive to different types of people.

Like I said above, if your friend only makes homophobic jokes about gay people, then it's not unreasonable to assume they are homophobic. The creators have "evolved" on a lot of their views given the "CIS" episode (which wasn't perfect on the issue), but their history with the subject matter (Mr./Mrs. Garrison, for example) is pretty vile.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Saying transphobic shit is suitable to say that someone is transphobic. If you use the t-slur, you're probably transphobic. Your interpretation is equally pulled from your ass, except in my case, the audience they play to views trans people as punchlines.

But Matt and Trey never said anything transphobic. Their characters, sure, but I think you're conflating what was written for a character and what the creator believes. Like, I highly doubt they're transphobic. That doesn't mean they can't write about it, nor should writing about it make them transphobic.

I understand what you're getting at, but I disagree with it. Now If Matt and Trey actively go and make fun of trans people themselves, yeah I'll agree with you that they're transphobic. But as it stands, they're not. Sure they can write offensive scenarios, but don't conflate the scenario with what a person believes.

Like I said above, if your friend only makes homophobic jokes about gay people, then it's not unreasonable to assume they are homophobic. The creators have "evolved" on a lot of their views given the "CIS" episode (which wasn't perfect on the issue), but their history with the subject matter (Mr./Mrs. Garrison, for example) is pretty vile.

That's a bad example, because South Park doesn't just make transphobic jokes. If we were to take South Park at face value, than we would be calling Matt and Trey Racist/Homophobic/Transphobic/etc.

Edit-Let's get it back on topic. Like the SP creators, Anita has the right to say whatever she wants without being harassed.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

No?

At least where I live...

Unless you're posting from a literal paradise, I'd be willing to bet against that.

Hell, Ms. Galaxy has already posted about her experiences living in a supposedly progressive state.

 

[Nekofrog]

But Matt and Trey never said anything transphobic. Their characters, sure, but I think you're conflating what was written for a character and what the creator believes. .

Are you serious? Are you serious right now? Matt Stone and Trey Parker have used the show a countless number of times to espouse their own personally held beliefs. I could probably list you 40 episodes in which they do it off the top of my head.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Nobody is calling for censorship. In fact, multiple times throughout this saga we've declared that that we're not calling for censorship.

What we're doing is calling them out on their bullcrap as two highly privileged individuals shitting on one of the worst treated group of people in this country. We don't have to know them personally to know if they're transphobic; they've presented their arguments and it's easy enough to hear what they're saying and base off of that.

What we're doing is highlighting the negative effect that these people are having on transgendered people, just so you can have a laugh. I hope the chuckle is worth it.

That's where you are wrong, there are no arguments here by shock comedy, it just that. It might have a negative effect in the actual minority that makes fun of it, but they actively aim to everybody and make fun of everybody, was it right in this case? Probably not.

Are they actively taking an stance? given they track record then Trey Parker and Matt Stone, basically hates everything and deep inside are some kind of chaotic anarchists or something.

 

[FiggyCal]

That's a bad example, because South Park doesn't just make transphobic jokes. If we were to take South Park at face value, than we would be calling Matt and Trey Racist/Homophobic/Transphobic/etc.

And anti-ginger.

 

[delta25]

Haha it always ends the same way. Some ridiculous "evidence" and then 20 quote replies and a ban.

wait so people cant have a negative opinion of her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-69xXD734

 

[A Link to the Past]

wait so people cant have a negative opinion of her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-69xXD734

How dare you not note that the video is by

SARGON

Fucking Sargon

Are you fucking with me, lol

 

[Mael]

wait so people cant have a negative opinion of her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-69xXD734

OH YES! THANK YOU!
I was so sure it wouldn't be thunderfoot vid!

delta25
I will never gamble again
(Today, 03:14 AM)

 

[MrHoot]

Nobody is calling for censorship. In fact, multiple times throughout this saga we've declared that that we're not calling for censorship.

What we're doing is calling them out on their bullcrap as two highly privileged individuals shitting on one of the worst treated group of people in this country. We don't have to know them personally to know if they're transphobic; they've presented their arguments and it's easy enough to hear what they're saying and base off of that.

What we're doing is highlighting the negative effect that these people are having on transgendered people, just so you can have a laugh. I hope the chuckle is worth it.

Yes you do. When you call out someone for something that is considered pretty heinous, you can't just base your evidence on "Well that episode seemed transphobic" when it's about a show about over the top situations who have painted other minorities and people in worst lights and in more outlandish situations. Burden of proof and all that

I'm not defending the episode in itself, in retrospective it was in poor taste. But I am defending against the fact that you're trying to paint people you obviously don't know as transphobes based on one clumsy episode. After that, is the episode shit ? Sure, whatever, go ahead. And if transgendered people feel that way, then it's important that they make themselves heard.

Let's make this more on-topic, you sound like Anita's critics who complain that she's trying to censor game devs.

You'd be wrong, I don't think that at all. Apologies if i constructed my point clumsily, it's late. But you seem also dedicated into painting me as some kind of horrible monster because I happen to disagree with you

 

[Michanical]

But Matt and Trey never said anything transphobic. Their characters, sure, but I think you're conflating what was written for a character and what the creator believes. Like, I highly doubt they're transphobic. That doesn't mean they can't write about it, nor should writing about it make them transphobic.

I understand what you're getting at, but I disagree with it. Now If Matt and Trey actively go and make fun of trans people themselves, yeah I'll agree with you that they're transphobic. But as it stands, they're not. Sure they can write offensive scenarios, but don't conflate the scenario with what a person believes.



That's a bad example, because South Park doesn't just make transphobic jokes. If we were to take South Park at face value, than we would be calling Matt and Trey Racist/Homophobic/Transphobic/etc.

I don't think that parody gives them the protection you think it does.

Maybe they are also racist and homophobic. Do you have an example of when they've written episodes on these two things without having some sort of positive message at the end? I know the episode where they redefine a homophobic slur was meant to take the power out of the word, but how were they doing that for trans people?

Also, we may be getting way off topic

 

[BreezyLimbo]

wait so people cant have a negative opinion of her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-69xXD734

.......

Uhhhhhhh it's not so much as having a negative opinion as it is you coming in here and practically saying 'Boy there is alot of evidence that she's a fraud!!!'. You can have a negative opinion of her, but that opinion stops when you start insinuating she's a fraud.

I don't think that parody gives them the protection you think it does.

Maybe they are also racist and homophobic. Do you have an example of when they've written episodes on these two things without having some sort of positive message at the end? I know the episode where they redefine a homophobic slur was meant to take the power out of the word, but how were they doing that for trans people?

Also, we may be getting way off topic

I'm not the type of person who assumes that actors believe in what their characters do on screen. I give the same benefit of the doubt to Matt and Trey.

 

[RM8]

I'm a huge South Park fan, but I wish that episode hadn't been a thing, really. They've shown pretty progressive views in other episodes, actually, but that dolphin one was pretty bad. And no, I'm censoring anyone, I'm stating why I dislike that episode.

 

[Jumplion]

But Matt and Trey never said anything transphobic. Their characters, sure, but I think you're conflating what was written for a character and what the creator believes. Like, I highly doubt they're transphobic. That doesn't mean they can't write about it, nor should writing about it make them transphobic.

You do realize those characters were written by Matt and Trey, and by necessity a creation reflects the thoughts of its creator, right?

Transphobia, just like homophobia, racism, and sexism, don't have to be intentional to be.

 

[delta25]

How dare you not note that the video is by

SARGON

Fucking Sargon

Are you fucking with me, lol

so its not a lie?

 

[Mael]

so its not a lie?

'Just asking question, guys!'

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's amazing when people talk about comedians deserving to have free reign over their comedy, but then argue that "they didn't say it, their characters did."

They're responsible for what they write.

so its not a lie?

I wouldn't know, I don't watch Sargon videos because he's a disgusting asshole and is such a bad person that it can be assumed that any 'evidence' provided by Sargon is a lie or intentionally taken out of context.

 

[Mman235]

so its not a lie?

That one's "Anita's doesn't play games" isn't it?

Yes it's a lie, that's pretty much the only way it can be described after the multiple instances it's been explained (and it was completely out of context in the first place).

 

[cambiata]

Wow, the Anita Sarkeesian thread is like the best place ever for straight white dudes to explain how minorities need to get a better sense of humor. If the dude response to Tropes vs Women in video games has taught us anything, it's that white dudes in general cannot bear to be made fun of in even the most trivial of ways ways.

"How dare you, HOW DARE YOU suggest that maybe white dudes use the damsel in distress trope too much! I'll kill you! I'll murder you while you sleep! CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW SERIOUS THIS IS?"

 

[Nekofrog]

Yes you do.

Nope!

When you call out someone for something that is considered pretty heinous, you can't just base your evidence on "Well that episode seemed transphobic" when it's about a show about over the top situations who have painted other minorities and people in worst lights and in more outlandish situations. Burden of proof and all that

Sure can! They use this show as a platform to espouse their own ignorant, entitled libertarian views almost every other episode. Stan and Kyle constantly act as stand-ins for their own voices; sometimes this is also delegated to other characters (Cartman) because their opinions aren't popular and they can get away with it by being "funny".

Their own body of work is the burden of proof. You are wrong, and it's okay to admit it.

 

[Jumplion]

wait so people cant have a negative opinion of her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-69xXD734

That is going to be my default reaction whenever someone links to Sargon, Tfoot, InternetAristrocrat, or any other GG figurehead without a hint of irony. So much out of context, so little time.

 

[FiggyCal]

You do realize those characters were written by Matt and Trey, and by necessity a creation reflects the thoughts of its creator, right?

Transphobia, just like homophobia, racism, and sexism, don't have to be intentional to be.

Yes. Someone that is already racist can't hide behind their characters and say "he said it, not me". But they'd have to hold those views already. It'd be unfair to them if they tried to make a point in having their characters be a certain way or their intention was different from what some people saw them to be.

Edit: And it is a shame that so many youtubers I previously respected have these ridiculous views on feminism/gamgergate like Thunderfoot. Not specifically Sargon -- i have no idea who the guy is.

 

[Michanical]

I'm not the type of person who assumes that actors believe in what their characters do on screen. I give the same benefit of the doubt to Matt and Trey.

You are right, if my friend only makes homophobic jokes about gay people, he's probably not homophobic because I refuse to believe that the jokes he makes do not reflect on him.

He's now trying making racist jokes about interracial dating. What a progressive, I assume without evidence.

 

[DrBo42]

Saying transphobic shit is suitable to say that someone is transphobic. If you use the t-slur, you're probably transphobic. Your interpretation is equally pulled from your ass, except in my case, the audience they play to views trans people as punchlines.

Not to defend it but it's still kind of a new thing for the majority of us. I'll be honest with you and share a story. I'm from a super small town in upstate NY (graduating class was around 100). Nearly 99% white. "Gay" was synonymous with lame on the East Coast. Massive part of conversation for teen guys over there, at least back in the 2000s.

Moved to Los Angeles when I was 17 and joined GAF around the same time. It was like living on another planet. I remember taking a bus down from Hollywood to Santa Monica for work and passing through West Hollywood when there was a "Sailors, board me!" billboard with two men embracing in front of a cruise ship. There were literally 0 openly gay classmates when I was coming up. Huge culture shock. Anyway, eventually worked with openly gay people and worked it out of my vocabulary because at some point you understand how ignorant you were/don't realize how it affects others. I remember being on GAF through the times where T Surprise was a popular meme. It's the same thing. The majority of people are still figuring it out.

 

[delta25]

I wouldn't know, I don't watch Sargon videos because he's a disgusting asshole and is such a bad person that it can be assumed that any 'evidence' provided by Sargon is a lie or intentionally taken out of context.

I mean, regardless of the source the video clearly shows her lying.