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[A Link to the Past]

So it's set up like it is in real life to some degree. Are you saying the developers did that in order to make it easier for you to kill Sex workers? Or is it just a side effect of the profession made virtual.

Then they're horrifically gross for digitizing the oppression of a marginalized group.

 

[shiba5]

always the same response..always



well if we are going the anecdotal evidence route... i have played every single gta game an never use a prostitute or killed civilians just for fun

You said there was no evidence. I pointed out that I ran over civilians. I mean, it's not like there is a scientific study I can point to that proves how people play GTA one way or another. Based on just my friends, they seem to enjoy racking up as much collateral damage as possible.

 

[stufte]

Then they're horrifically gross for digitizing the oppression of a marginalized group.

What oppression? Killing them? Or simply the act of prostitution?

 

[andymcc]

What oppression? Killing them? Or simply the act of prostitution?

Most prostitution I'd gather

 

[A Link to the Past]

What oppression? Killing them? Or simply the act of prostitution?

If they wanted to digitally represent the risks of being a sex worker.

 

[stufte]

If they wanted to digitally represent the risks of being a sex worker.

Every npc in that game is at risk. They also digitized the risks of being a police officer. A criminal. A convenience store worker in a bad neighborhood. I'm still confused as to why Sex workers get elevated above all others when they are on the same playing field in the game.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Every npc in that game is at risk. They also digitized the risks of being a police officer. A criminal. A convenience store worker in a bad neighborhood. I'm still confused as to why Sex workers get elevated above all others when they are on the same playing field in the game.

Because there are specific types of NPCs. Cops, gang members, shop owners, sex workers, and... everyone else. Most NPCs are generic.

 

[Nanashrew]

It's quite clear that something like Tetris indeed has a message about the country it originated from.
That the message is inherently procommunist is however pretty far fetched.
But seriously there's a reason the whole marketing surrounding the game was centered around a clear distinct USSR imagery.
Thinking about it, I think it's a clear message about bureaucracy more than communism.

You reminded me of this article http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/game-design-always-political-im-not-even-exaggerating-here

 

[Kadayi]

The question is why it's there in the first place. Developers, actual human beings, put that in there. Then juxtapose that with the story where the women are 1-dimensional negative stereotypes of women. or that the player character will ,WITHOUT your prompting, say awful shit to trans women for no reason. Sex workers already get killed in real life with little done about it, why should a game make that part of the mechanics?

I'll be honest I'm not a fan of Rockstars writing or characterisation, but at the same time that seems to be irrelevant to the matter under discussion which is to do with the mechanics.

That game allows you to shoot pretty much anyone if you want.

 

[Jak140]

Then they're horrifically gross for digitizing the oppression of a marginalized group.

Is it possible to have a conversation about this without using language that turns the developers into some kind of cartoonish misogynists? Is it possible to talk about why the existence of prostitutes in the game and how they are portrayed is an issue for some without assuming malice or intent where it may not exist?

If you make a mistake, do you respond better to constructive criticism or to being berated for it? Which action is more likely to be conducive to change and which is more likely to cause you to resentfully double-down on your original position?

 

[Riposte]

Or because you almost never get punished for killing sex workers because the context they are in is almost always in a secluded area.

But hey, don't let me stop you from ignoring arguments whenever they flat-out destroy your point.


If you start shooting up a store, you get in trouble. Most taxi drivers are in public (logically). When sex workers are specifically evident, they are almost always in a secluded area.

I don't think them being secluded is necessarily true. I think you mainly see them on street corners, at night (which may make it easier to avoid a wanted level for killing anyone). I just looked at few videos of people picking them up in GTAV, and it fits this. Done a certain way, the people or cars (including police cars, by chance) could have triggered the wanted level. Whether you get a star depends on the current state of the sandbox. There's no reason to think Taxi drivers are any different, especially when you can choose where they appear or end up. Your original point was based on a conditional you didn't feel the need to clarify on. Factoring the randomness of contextual locations or day/night cycles in sandboxes just adds another layer of reading specific things from the mixing of various mechanics, all the more ways to lose people on the way of trying to establish a very carefully created and purposeful interpretation.

Questions like "Why does it need to exist?" or bringing up how the lack of it didn't bother you makes this whole argument seem like an elaborate way to get the point across you don't want want something to exist in a videogame. In this case, it's a loose, unrestricted representation of sex workers in a sandbox.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Is it possible to have a conversation about this without using language that turns the developers into some kind of cartoonish misogynists? Is it possible to talk about why the existence of prostitutes in the game and how they are portrayed is an issue for some without assuming malice or intent where it may not exist?

If you make a mistake, do you respond better to constructive criticism or to being berated for it? Which action is more likely to be conducive to change and which is more likely to cause you to resentfully double-down on your original position?

I responded to the possibility that Rockstar added sex workers to GTA in order to digitize the risks sex workers face. Can you point out what I said that made them seem like "cartoonish misogynists"? It sounds like calling them sexist is adequate to make the criticism cartoonish for you.

I don't think them being secluded is necessarily true. I think you mainly see them on street corners, at night (which may make it easier to avoid a wanted level for killing anyone). I just looked at few videos of people picking them up in GTAV, and it fits this. Done a certain way, the people or cars (including police cars, by chance) could have triggered the wanted level. Whether you get a star depends on the current state of the sandbox. There's no reason to think Taxi drivers are any different, especially when you can choose where they appear or end up. Your original point was based on a conditional you didn't feel the need to clarify on. Factoring the randomness of contextual locations or day/night cycles in sandboxes just adds another layer of reading specific things from the mixing of various mechanics, all the more ways to lose people on the way of trying to establish a very carefully created and purposeful interpretation.

Questions like "Why does it need to exist?" or bringing up how the lack of it didn't bother you makes this whole argument seem like an elaborate way to get the point across you don't want want something to exist in a videogame. In this case, it's a loose, unrestricted representation of sex workers in a sandbox.

What are you talking about? Your interaction is almost entirely in a place of seclusion. You can only have sex in secluded areas, and the interaction ends in that area, where if you are going to specifically kill her, you're going to do it after, not before.

 

[Mael]

The wad of cash does make it questionable, you're right. But I should mention I wasn't even really aware of that cash since I haven't used hookers to replenish my health in GTA because they are not at all the focus of the game, but the focus of media coverage due to the controversy surrounding violence against them.

To be fair from my limited playthrough GTA, hookers are surprisingly hard to find in New York .
I mean GTA IV.
Some would say that the sex worker not getting the wad of cash would be unrealistic, but pretty everything in the game is anyway.
The effect that wad being there however is something that couldn't possibly have been missed and makes the whole thing intentional.
I mean in QA that's something that would be tested to be sure it would freeze the game after all.
So yeah it's intentional, that doesn't the game is crap and should be burned along with books of Twilight in the Great Burning of Tasteless crap.

And I'd wager kids are still "off-limits" whereas sex workers in a game about criminals and the culture surrounding criminals are far from out of place. It would feel weirder if a satire of gangsters and mobsters completely overlocked that part, especially considering Rockstar seems to draw reference mostly from crime movies in which kids are also somewhat sacred.

There's plenty of kids in thrillers, crime movies and gangster stuffs.
I mean just look at the gangbangers stereotype, they pray on the kids to do their business and everything. There's room for something interesting to be done here, and I don't mean like Watch Dogs.
Otherwise they might as well be doing Lego City Undercover II, I mean at least in the 1rst one there was a reason why there was no kids.

You seem to be posting from several different versions of the game, with different assets and made by different people (e.g., those not in the USSR). And even then, the imagery in these games are very generic, superficial and, at times, nonsensical. Pretty understandable why it comes across as navel-gazing to paint a broader picture, even with some Russian landmarks thrown in.

Everything has messages. For example, the letters of this post, the images on your monitor, or even the monitor itself. The images your brain conjures up from the light your eye receives are given a meaning by your brain. Now, what's the difference between propaganda and any other sensation? How we categorize their meaning. To cut to the chase, one can see something as propaganda (which usually means promoting prominent (i.e., shared) messages they judge as harmful or antagonistic) even if others don't follow along. The bigger the leap, the less people are keen on jumping along. You have to "prove" to them, make them see, what you see, probably through logic. This can be difficult (strangers with different views agreeing can be very difficult in general), but might become impossible when you are trying to do this fucking Tetris.

Wait a minute, I think you misunderstand my point.
I'm not saying that with a voice of authority that Tetris message was somethingsomething.
My point was more that you don't need giant leaps to show that Tetris has a message about somethingsomething.
The gameplay from Tetris is pretty much blocks getting on top of one another till the construction is so big it becomes unmanageable.
I mean that's a metaphor out there for bureaucracy if there was ever one.
In the same way Super Mario Bros has a clear inspiration from Alice in Wonderland

 

[Riposte]

What are you talking about? Your interaction is almost entirely in a place of seclusion. You can only have sex in secluded areas, and the interaction ends in that area, where if you are going to specifically kill her, you're going to do it after, not before.

I was speaking about more where they appear (reading what you said as where they are, as opposed to where you take them). While true, this distinction isn't so different from taxi drivers, still.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Another point on children in GTA is interactivity. The only reason why GTA doesn't do it is to avoid controversy over players inevitably trying to kill kids in the game.

I was speaking about more where they appear (reading what you said as where they are, as opposed to where you take them). While true, this distinction isn't so different from taxi drivers, still.

True, but taxi drivers are more often than not going to be going to and from populated places. Further, I don't see taxi drivers killed as much as they are carjacked.

 

[Mael]

You reminded me of this article http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/game-design-always-political-im-not-even-exaggerating-here

That's actually what I was thinking about.
Every single thing made has a political message, even if the message is "all is well and nothing should change".

 

[Jak140]

I responded to the possibility that Rockstar added sex workers to GTA in order to digitize the risks sex workers face. Can you point out what I said that made them seem like "cartoonish misogynists"? It sounds like calling them sexist is adequate to make the criticism cartoonish for you.

I said the hyperbolic language creates the impression of that, specifically "they're horrifically gross" if they wanted to digitally represent the risks sex workers face.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I said the hyperbolic language creates the impression of that, specifically "they're horrifically gross" if they wanted to digitally represent the risks sex workers face.

If Rockstar was trying to represent the risks of sex work and this is what they ended up with, then they are horrifically gross. There is a lot of shit that you do not do unless you can do it right, and representation of any marginalized group is tricky enough that you shouldn't do it without proper care.

 

[not_so_special]

Or because you almost never get punished for killing sex workers because the context they are in is almost always in a secluded area.

.

yup..like in real life?

talking about destroying arguments

if you kill npc (sex workers included) and someone sees that you will get the police after you

so dont spread lies to suit your agenda,u can be punished on the game for killing sex workers

seriously i have some irish buddies on rockstar and everytime someone bring the "bu bu sex workes " fallacy they laugh their asses looking at the mental gymnastics some people do to make their point about that subject

 

[A Link to the Past]

The worst thing that happens is that you get chased by the police

And unless you're in a mission or trying to accomplish something, you are absolutely not inconvenienced or punished by having your wanted level increased.

That said, the best time and place to kill a sex worker - gameplay-wise - is after you've already brought them away from police, and after you've already achieved what you're trying to do.

Also, it's cute when people say of GTA "they're just trying to be realistic!" when the punishment for murdering hundreds of people is a $100 fine.

 

[stufte]

If Rockstar was trying to represent the risks of sex work and this is what they ended up with, then they are horrifically gross. There is a lot of shit that you do not do unless you can do it right, and representation of any marginalized group is tricky enough that you shouldn't do it without proper care.

What should they have done then? Not include them at all? Make them invincible? What could they have done to represent a group like this without being perceived as "horrifically gross" to someone?

Also, it's cute when people say of GTA "they're just trying to be realistic!" when the punishment for murdering hundreds of people is a $100 fine.

No need to attempt to belittle someone just because you disagree with them.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What should they have done then? Not include them at all? Make them invincible? What could they have done to represent a group like this without being perceived as "horrifically gross" to someone?

Chinatown Wars without sex workers was an amazing game. Sex workers aren't in GTA to give them a voice or anything, they're there because gamers expect them.

Further, I'd appreciate if you'd read what I'm saying and realize that me calling them horrifically gross was in response to the idea that they were trying to represent the risks of sex workers. If they're not doing that, they're not horrifically gross. If they are, they are. It's that simple.

No need to attempt to belittle someone just because you disagree with them.

That'd be a good point of the person was "merely disagreeing."

 

[not_so_special]

The worst thing that happens is that you get chased by the police

And unless you're in a mission or trying to accomplish something, you are absolutely not inconvenienced or punished by having your wanted level increased.

.

now they arent being punished as you want...yeah fella,,next time youy kill a npc on gta the four horsemen of the apocalypse will chase you trought the city

 

[A Link to the Past]

I've been specifically stating that players are never punished for pages now, and I've specifically stated that thew game has nothing that legitimately punishes players for doing anything. Sorry that you're not paying attention, at all.

 

[Mael]

What should they have done then? Not include them at all? Make them invincible? What could they have done to represent a group like this without being perceived as "horrifically gross" to someone?

Actually a good start would be to start to make it more than the cartoonish representation it currently is.
Seriously looking at GTA you would think pimps are extinct, you only have hookers in your cars and hotels don't exists.
But stripper club do....because reasons.
A way more interesting mechanic would be to have pimps or hooker chasing you on sight when you kill one on top of the police.
The way it is now is worse than offensive, boring.

 

[Jak140]

If Rockstar was trying to represent the risks of sex work and this is what they ended up with, then they are horrifically gross. There is a lot of shit that you do not do unless you can do it right, and representation of any marginalized group is tricky enough that you shouldn't do it without proper care.

If you value making the industry more open to women, I question the usefulness of taking an accusatory and hostile approach when studies have shown this only encourages people to redouble on their views. See this study on the effects of different messaging approaches on prejudice, for example:

Lisa Legault, Jennifer Gutsell and Michael Inzlicht, from the University of Toronto Scarborough, were interested in exploring how one’s everyday environment influences people’s motivation toward prejudice reduction.
The authors conducted two experiments which looked at the effect of two different types of motivational intervention – a controlled form (telling people what they should do) and a more personal form (explaining why being non-prejudiced is enjoyable and personally valuable).

In experiment one; participants were randomly assigned one of two brochures to read: an autonomy brochure or a controlling brochure. These brochures discussed a new campus initiative to reduce prejudice. A third group was offered no motivational instructions to reduce prejudice. The authors found that, ironically, those who read the controlling brochure later demonstrated more prejudice than those who had not been urged to reduce prejudice. Those who read the brochure designed to support personal motivation showed less prejudice than those in the other two groups.

In experiment two, participants were randomly assigned a questionnaire, designed to stimulate personal or controlling motivation to reduce prejudice. The authors found that those who were exposed to controlling messages regarding prejudice reduction showed significantly more prejudice than those who did not receive any controlling cues.
The authors suggest that when interventions eliminate people’s freedom to value diversity on their own terms, they may actually be creating hostility toward the targets of prejudice.

According to Dr. Legault, “Controlling prejudice reduction practices are tempting because they are quick and easy to implement. They tell people how they should think and behave and stress the negative consequences of failing to think and behave in desirable ways.” Legault continues, “But people need to feel that they are freely choosing to be nonprejudiced, rather than having it forced upon them.”

http://www.psychologicalscience.org...ronic-effects-of-anti-prejudice-messages.html

Full study here: http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/w...ads/2011/12/Legault-Gutsell-Inzlicht-2011.pdf

 

[not_so_special]

I've been specifically stating that players are never punished for pages now, and I've specifically stated that thew game has nothing that legitimately punishes players for doing anything. Sorry that you're not paying attention, at all.

excuse me but thats not true..getting the police after you its being punished by the mechanics of the game,you are wrong sir..again and again

Actually a good start would be to start to make it more than the cartoonish representation it currently is.
Seriously looking at GTA you would think pimps are extinct, you only have hookers in your cars and hotels don't exists.
But stripper club do....because reasons.
A way more interesting mechanic would be to have pimps or hooker chasing you on sight when you kill one on top of the police.
The way it is now is worse than offensive, boring.

so you want to avoid the cartoonish representation and want at the same time pimps chasing you alongside the cops? for real? how thats realistic?

 

[A Link to the Past]

The game never gives any meaningful punishment to the player, and in fact, getting chased by the cops is fun. Players like to be criminals. Rockstar deserves to get the piss taken out of them if they were trying to represent the risks sex workers face, because it does a horrific job.

excuse me but thats not true..getting the police after you its being punished by the mechanics of the game,you are wrong sir..again and again

If there's one thing that I hate, it's having a really popular, fun mechanic occur. Being in high-speed chases is one of the most entertaining aspects, seeing how long you can go without getting caught, or trying to lower your wanted level.

Getting an increased wanted level gives you more opportunities to engage in that kind of gameplay. Because all that happens when you get caught is you lose a bit of money and lose your weapons, there's no reason to be worried about the fail state. It's not a punishment.

 

[stufte]

Actually a good start would be to start to make it more than the cartoonish representation it currently is.
Seriously looking at GTA you would think pimps are extinct, you only have hookers in your cars and hotels don't exists.
But stripper club do....because reasons.
A way more interesting mechanic would be to have pimps or hooker chasing you on sight when you kill one on top of the police.
The way it is now is worse than offensive, boring.

Everyone in the realistic(ish) world of GTA is a cartoon representation. I do like the suggestion of angry pimps chasing you down though. Or ones you may run in to later in gameplay that has been hunting you down for killing his hookers. I think that would be pretty cool.

 

[Mael]

excuse me but thats not true..getting the police after you its being punished by the mechanics of the game,you are wrong sir..again and again

We're talking about a game called Grand Theft Auto.
I mean being chased by the police is pretty much the point of the game.

so you want to avoid the cartoonish representation and want at the same time pimps chasing you alongside the cops? for real? how thats realistic?

At this point I'd take Flying Spaghetti monster chasing you over the status quo.

Everyone in the realistic(ish) world of GTA is a cartoon representation. I do like the suggestion of angry pimps chasing you down though. Or ones you may run in to later in gameplay that has been hunting you down for killing his hookers. I think that would be pretty cool.

Exactly, on top of that it's pretty telling that to my knowledge (feel free to correct me) there's only hookers on the street and the strip club available to do that kind of unsavory activity.
My point is that the inclusion of hooker now is only lazy and pretty much there only because it's expected, nothing is done with it.At this point remove it or make it something else.
There wasn't hookers in Chinatown Wars and the game was better for it.

 

[not_so_special]

If there's one thing that I hate, it's having a really popular, fun mechanic occur. Being in high-speed chases is one of the most entertaining aspects, seeing how long you can go without getting caught, or trying to lower your wanted level.

Getting an increased wanted level gives you more opportunities to engage in that kind of gameplay. Because all that happens when you get caught is you lose a bit of money and lose your weapons, there's no reason to be worried about the fail state. It's not a punishment.

come on man..now you are the one who defines whats punishment is? this is ridiculous..to a lot of players getting wanted level is a pain in the ass

 

[Basketball]

I've never killed a sex worker in the game, many people don't. They aren't encouraged to be killed and they are killable like every other npc in the game. The ability to kill them is not the reason they exist.

You know what
Gta has been the scapegoat for this kind of stuff for way too long
The whole game is full of controversy and touchy issues (illegal immigrants- you can taser illegals, issues like torture, murder , rape , theft , marriage issues , drugs and addiction , war , racism , police brutality , armed robbery , sexism , ageism etc you name it are common place.
and I wouldn't change any of it
What do you expect, follow the traffic signals like ain real life, don't harm anyone , and be sure to recycle.
This is grand theft auto we're talking about. The developers know this stuff gets people pissed and they poke fun at them in their ingame television/ radio , adverts. I'm glad games like Gta still exist .. and will continue to exist
Yes you can bang a prostitute and kill her with a baseball bat to get your money back

Spoiler

like tradition ;p

(popular since gta3). You can go on rampages murdering everything in sight until the cops gun you down.
I'm kind of tired of this notion that if you partake in these optional activities in the game you're messed up or playing the wrong way.
"Oh look at that player what a weirdo how is this going push medium further or legitimize games yada yada yada"
Why should these activities be reduced/ removed because some don't like them.
Why are they in the game you say if they serve no purpose ?
..... it's a game , they may be fun from time to time, or they could be little diversions. it's nothing complex

 

[not_so_special]

We're talking about a game called Grand Theft Auto.
I mean being chased by the police is pretty much the point of the game.


At this point I'd take Flying Spaghetti monster chasing you over the status quo.



Exactly, on top of that it's pretty telling that to my knowledge (feel free to correct me) there's only hookers on the street and the strip club available to do that kind of unsavory activity.
My point is that the inclusion of hooker now is only lazy and pretty much there only because it's expected, nothing is done with it.At this point remove it or make it something else.
There wasn't hookers in Chinatown Wars and the game was better for it.

well its seem everyone here have a different view of what punishment its...

 

[Nekofrog]

You know what
Gta has been the scapegoat for this kind of stuff for way too long
The whole game is full of controversy and touchy issues (illegal immigrants- you can taser illegals, issues like torture, murder , rape , theft , marriage issues , drugs and addiction , war , racism , police brutality , armed robbery , sexism , ageism etc you name it are common place.
and I wouldn't change any of it
What do you expect, follow the traffic signals like ain real life, don't harm anyone , and be sure to recycle.
This is grand theft auto we're talking about. The developers know this stuff gets people pissed and they poke fun at them in their ingame television/ radio , adverts. I'm glad games like Gta still exist .. and will continue to exist
Yes you can bang a prostitute and kill her with a baseball bat to get your money back

Spoiler

like tradition ;p

. You can go on rampages murdering everything in sight until the cops gun you down.
I'm kind of tired of this notion that if you partake in these optional activities in the game you're messed up or playing the wrong way.
"Oh look at that player what a weirdo how is this going push medium further or legitimize games yada yada yada"
Why should these activities be reduced/ removed because some don't like them.
Why are they in the game you say if they serve no purpose ?
..... it's a game , they may be fun from time to time, or they could be little diversions. it's nothing complex

Aside from the grossly offensive statement in the spoiler tags, this is a lot of text from someone who has completely failed to grasp the argument at hand.

Nobody is asserting that there is something wrong with you for enjoying it. What is being asserted is that there is something inherently wrong with the way it's being presented.

 

[Mael]

well its seem everyone here have a different view of what punishment its...

If you get caught you get a slap on the wrist in GTA, there's no punishment in this game.
That's the whole point, that's even why it's so popular.
I'd argue that it can be ok if treated well.
Heck if the game crash and you lose your progress, that's a bigger punishment than anything GTA could ever throw at you.

 

[Riposte]

Wait a minute, I think you misunderstand my point.
I'm not saying that with a voice of authority that Tetris message was somethingsomething.
My point was more that you don't need giant leaps to show that Tetris has a message about somethingsomething.
The gameplay from Tetris is pretty much blocks getting on top of one another till the construction is so big it becomes unmanageable.
I mean that's a metaphor out there for bureaucracy if there was ever one.
In the same way Super Mario Bros has a clear inspiration from Alice in Wonderland

Unless you put the blocks in the right place, then there's no issue at all. Now what does that mean?

My point is that because the signs in this case are so nebulous, the weight behind any interpretation (beyond basic ideas like "this block is shaped like this") will be very flimsy. If you don't think it takes a giant leap, then perhaps it would be better to illustrate it as a million possible small leaps, to nowhere. Let's put it this way, maybe Tetris does read to you as a metaphor for bureaucracy, but why should anyone care that you think that? Hell, why should you care that you think that? How is that more meaningful than thinking the Sun is a God in a flaming chariot or the moon is made out of cheese? Or even when the idea or inspiration is helpful: do we attribute the theory of gravitation to an apple? Are apples about gravity?

Even in much, much more complex scenarios with more commonly understood symbols, like Grand Theft Auto, people can't agree with what this mechanic interacting with that mechanic based on another mechanic means. It's pretty much a contest of competing fictions, only some are less depended on ignoring the random nature of sandboxes.

"Political" messages are not much different, just considered more pressing (where the label of "propaganda" is most common), to the point where non-political messages are often not considered messages (e.g., people say "does this game have a message?" as if every single frame isn't telling your brain something). It's trivial to create a "political interpretation" (the very process of which can be interpreted politically, as well as me pointing this out, and maybe even you reading this). Anything can have a political meaning (or really, several), you only need to give it them, relate it something, anything, no matter how flimsy and obscure such an idea is. But to what effect? I get that people will say things like "Don't make it political" even when it's very easy to make a political interpretation, but to make everything political as a counterpoint has effect of making "political" a meaningless quality. In truth, what people are concerned about, one way or another, are the motivations behind various statements or even the pushing of an interpretation.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Every npc in that game is at risk. They also digitized the risks of being a police officer. A criminal. A convenience store worker in a bad neighborhood. I'm still confused as to why Sex workers get elevated above all others when they are on the same playing field in the game.

The difference is that sex workers are frequently marginalized in real life; there's the social stigma of working in the sex industry, there are real risks involved with the job and there is little political will towards bettering their lives. Making a game of killing prostitutes is punching down.

 

[Basketball]

Aside from the grossly offensive statement in the spoiler tags, this is a lot of text from someone who has completely failed to grasp the argument at hand.

Nobody is asserting that there is something wrong with you for enjoying it. What is being asserted is that there is something inherently wrong with the way it's being presented.

What would be the correct way of presenting a game about sociopaths with infinite freedom in a semi realistic game world

and on the tag I'm sorry to offend but still everyone knows about getting money back since gta 3 it's very gamey at least early on in the game when cash reserves are low.

 

[stufte]

The difference is that sex workers are frequently marginalized in real life; there's the social stigma of working in the sex industry, there are real risks involved with the job and there is little political will towards bettering their lives. Making a game of killing prostitutes is punching down.

If this was a game made with the sole intent of killing sex workers I'd agree with you. But as it stands sex workers are part of a broad canvas of people and experiences that make up the game of GTA. The game punches EVERYWHERE. Not just down.

 

[Mael]

Unless you put the blocks in the right place, then there's no issue at all. Now what does that mean?

If that happens the game will go faster and faster till you can't keep up, that's the whole point. You can never win.

My point is that because the signs in this case are so nebulous, the weight behind any interpretation (beyond basic ideas like "this block is shaped like this") will be very flimsy. If you don't think it takes a giant leap, then perhaps it would be better to illustrate it as a million possible small leaps, to nowhere. Let's put it this way, maybe Tetris does read to you as a metaphor for bureaucracy, but why should anyone care that you think that? Hell, why should you care that you think that? How is that more meaningful than thinking the Sun is a God in a flaming chariot or the moon is made out of cheese? Or even when the idea or inspiration is helpful: do we attribute the theory of gravitation to an apple? Are apples about gravity?

That is way off topic and beside the point.
If there's a message, the point of the message is to be shared or we might as well close all social media.

Even in much, much more complex scenarios with more commonly understood symbols, like Grand Theft Auto, people can't agree with what this mechanic interacting with that mechanic based on another mechanic means. It's pretty much a contest of competing fictions, only some are less depended on ignoring the random nature of sandboxes.

"Political" messages are not much different, just considered more pressing (where the label of "propaganda" is most common), to the point where non-political messages are often not considered messages (e.g., people say "does this game have a message?" as if every single frame isn't telling your brain something). It's trivial to create a "political interpretation" (the very process of which can be interpreted politically, as well as me pointing this out, and maybe even you reading this). Anything can have a political meaning (or really, several), you only need to give it them, relate it something, anything, no matter how flimsy and obscure such an idea is. But to what effect? I get that people will say things like "Don't make it political" even when it's very easy to make a political interpretation, but to make everything political as a counterpoint has effect of making "political" a meaningless quality. In truth, what people are concerned about, one way or another, are the motivations behind various statements or even the pushing of an interpretation.

Political message is inherently a call for a change (even conservative message, they just want a change to revert to a prior state), if you want politic out you really mean you don't want change.
I also don't agree with the inherent negative connotation of political messaging but that's really for another topic because it's really a tangent to the topic at hand.

 

[Nekofrog]

What would be the correct way of presenting a game about sociopaths with infinite freedom in a semi realistic game world

and on the tag everyone knows about getting money back since gta 3 it's very gamey

Again, you missed the point. We're talking about the presentation of the environment and the people who inhabit it and its dynamics, not how the main character is portrayed within it. World building.

 

[Michanical]

Seems that way, I'm not sure why he would fabricate it. He dosn't sound like a pro GG (the movement didn't even started whe he wrote that post) and he actually mantains a conversation with another person that did a conference in the same event (in the comments section) so he actually was there.

Neither I can find Anita commenting it and denying it that she said that.

Seems a pretty ignorant opinion about the incedent but certainly she's not entirely wrong in the lack of feminism on Japan,as far as I know.

People were harassing Anita long before GG. I remember when her kickstarter launched; it was terrible and it really hasn't let up since.

 

[Basketball]

Again, you missed the point. We're talking about the presentation of the environment and the people who inhabit it and its dynamics, not how the main character is portrayed within it. World building.

Rockstar wanted to create a beautiful and disgusting place that is chalk full of rich detail

full of annoying one dimensional civilians that say the darnedest things , trigger happy police , innuendo everywhere etc everything is a joke

 

[Riposte]

If that happens the game will go faster and faster till you can't keep up, that's the whole point. You can never win.

Maybe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDCpv8gEC4w

 

[Nekofrog]

Rockstar wanted to create a beautiful and disgusting place that is choke full of rich detail

full of annoying one dimensional civilians that say the darnedest things , trigger happy police , innuendo everywhere etc everything is a joke

You're making excuses for their abhorrent and offensive portrayal of a specific subset of people.

 

[Mael]

Maybe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDCpv8gEC4w

That's one version, I'm pretty sure the original has a killscreen.
NES version certainly does
And Tengen version is only limited by the endurance of the player, you literally can't win.

Rockstar wanted to create a beautiful and disgusting place that is choke full of rich detail

full of annoying one dimensional civilians that say the darnedest things , trigger happy police , innuendo everywhere etc everything is a joke

That's kind of a weird explanation.
I mean would a game that follows the worst kind of racist stereotype be ok because "Dev wanted to create a beautiful and disgusting place that is choke full of rich detail"?

 

[Basketball]

You're making excuses for their abhorrent and offensive portrayal of a specific subset of people.

What do you want me to say ? These games are pretty much like southpark

everyone and their mom get crapped on. Hipsters , Bikers , junkies , police , gangs , grimey business men and women etc

They pretty much poke fun at America and it's ideals the whole game as well.

Tell me is there one subset that is left untouched , unscathed , separated from the mud ?

 

[stufte]

You're making excuses for their abhorrent and offensive portrayal of a specific subset of people.

That quote of yours encompasses plenty of subsets of people in this game.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

People were harassing Anita long before GG. I remember when her kickstarter launched; it was terrible and it really hasn't let up since.

Sure, but the guy makes up a single quotation of a whole blog post about a convention, just to be used months later by totally unrelated persons?

Is not like he went to every site out there and said:"Look at what this woman said!!", the dude made a post about a series of conferences, making his own opinion of it and reaching his own conclussions, then in the whole post he makes a quotation of one of Anita's answers.

Seeing this as some king of Machiavellian to be used against Anita months later requires some imagination and ill feelings.

The guy as much posses himself as a more of a neutral stance, with the "2 sides" argument, which I know some people consider it insulting, since there aren't two sides, but hardly makes him either an GG apologist...

 

[A Link to the Past]

What do you want me to say ? These games are pretty much like southpark

everyone and their mom get crapped on. Hipsters , Bikers , junkies , police , gangs , grimey business men and women etc

They pretty much poke fun at America and it's ideals the whole game as well.

Tell me is there one subset that is left untouched , unscathed , separated from the mud ?

Let's not bring up South Park. That shit has some pretty transphobic stuff in it.