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Any correlation between Jim stepping down and TLOU getting canned?

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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I can't imagine this is something they decided to do this morning. The decision was very likely being considered for weeks and the project wasn't going well. Whoever decided to force their most prized single player studio into GAAS is a grade A moron. Bungie has also been struggling mightily when they were brought in for their GAAS expertise. That's two major blunders by who was behind these decisions (Jim Ryan).

The timing can't be a coincidence.
 

Aion002

Member
Maybe... Maybe Bungie input made them change plans... Maybe Redfall colossal failure made Sony realize that they also had a broken mess in the making...

I believe that it was a combination of all that.
 
I can't imagine this is something they decided to do this morning. The decision was very likely being considered for weeks and the project wasn't going well. Whoever decided to force their most prized single player studio into GAAS is a grade A moron. Bungie has also been struggling mightily when they were brought in for their GAAS expertise. That's two major blunders by who was behind these decisions (Jim Ryan).

The timing can't be a coincidence.
Alright, i'll spell it out a little for folks.

So, the devs working on this weren't just in-house SIE/ND, but also contractors who would've been needed to bolster the asset delivery pipelines needed to maintain a big live-service operation. When hammering out SLAs for contractors on a live-service project like this, you typically set them on time-based service timelines, 6-12 months, with automatic extensions baked in. The thing is, the SLA cuts both ways - if you cancel the project, say, 6 months before the contracts have matured, then thats just lost money. So what you can opt to do is you keep the contractors around, have them working on assets that can be shared in the engine and resources that your studio needs, then when the SLA does mature, you can cancel the project, without opening yourself up to legal liability, or handing out money and getting nothing in return.

This is one of the things that happened here. Its why you're hearing about its cancellation now instead of 6 months ago.
 
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Alright, i'll spell it out a little for folks.

So, the devs working on this weren't just in-house SIE/ND, but also contractors who would've been needed to bolster the asset delivery pipelines needed to maintain a big live-service operation. When hammering out SLAs for contractors on a live-service project like this, you typically set them on time-based service timelines, 6-12 months, with automatic extensions baked in. The thing is, the SLA cuts both ways - if you cancel the project, say, 6 months before the contracts have matured, then thats just lost money. So what you can opt to do is you keep the contractors around, have them working on assets that can be shared in the engine and resources that your studio needs, then when the SLA does mature, you can cancel the project, without opening yourself up to legal liability, or handing out money and getting nothing in return.

This is one of the things that happened here. Its why you're hearing about its cancellation now instead of 6 months ago.
So it's possible other GAAS games from Sony have been cancelled behind the scenes that we don't yet know about.
 

Mr Hyde

Member
"In ramping up to full production, the massive scope of our ambition became clear. To release and support The Last of Us Online we’d have to put all our studio resources behind supporting post launch content for years to come, severely impacting development on future single-player games. So, we had two paths in front of us: become a solely live service games studio or continue to focus on single-player narrative games that have defined Naughty Dog’s heritage"

Wrote in another thread, but how could you not foresee this? This just reads like someone higher up at ND or SIE (most likely Jim) wanted ND to become a full on GaaS-studio, but the majority of the staff wanted none of it and it was a power struggle to regain creative control and to start focusing on SP games again.

But also the failures of Redfall, the poor showing of Suicide Squad, cancellation of Hyenas before release, surely plays a part of it all. But overall, I think Sonys GaaS strategy is going to collapse completely. Fair games had an awful reception when it debuted so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the next game that is going to be axed.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
He's not stepping down for a few more months.

Decisions to cancel projects aren't made on a whim. This was something they decided internally months ago, just made public today.


Also.


GAww2B-W0AAC6Ts.jpg:large
 
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Wrote in another thread, but how could you not foresee this? This just reads like someone higher up at ND or SIE (most likely Jim) wanted ND to become a full on GaaS-studio, but the majority of the staff wanted none of it and it was a power struggle to regain creative control and to start focusing on SP games again.
This is not at all what happened. This entire time, they have had 2 different SP titles in dev; their next main title (you can easily guess what it is) and a much smaller incubation team on something new.

SIE spent a lot of money and time since 2019 expanding their core dev teams, thanks to the tutelage on Insomniac, to turn them into multi-production teams. Almost all of their major studios now have multiple full production teams going. SSM has 2 and 1 smaller one, for example (Valhalla). Bend has 2, Sucker Punch has 2, ND had 2 + 1 smaller one as well, etc.. They talked openly about this for many years.

ND simply bit off more than they can chew here. They honestly believed they had a production pipeline that could support a live-service game for years all on their own, when they famously miss nearly all of their major publisher set milestones. There was no internal struggle - ND was super passionate about doing a live-service MP title.

This is not the last we have seen from MP modes at ND btw.
 

Mr Hyde

Member
- ND was super passionate about doing a live-service MP title.

I've no doubt they were passionate about doing MP, but that was when the project was Factions and still attached to TLOU2 as an MP component. Expanding it to a full blown GaaS just sounds like SIE higher ups forcing NDs hand. The team are then unable to scope it accordingly due to inexperience and soon the passion for the project starts to dry up. This whole GaaS initiative from Sony is a mistake and is now blowing up in the faces of their teams. I expect more cancellations going forth.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
So it's possible other GAAS games from Sony have been cancelled behind the scenes that we don't yet know about.

Not likely.

"Totoki said, in comments translated to English, that Sony still has 12 live-service titles planned, but that the company is currently reviewing them in order “to meet gamers’ expectations” and to ensure that those games “will be played and liked for a long time.”

“Mid to long term, we want to [expand] this kind of service,” Totoki said. “That’s the unchanged policy of our company.”


Read that second paragraph again. They're expanding their Live Service ambitions.
 

tmlDan

Member
Jim is still there, and seemingly still signing deals - this would be on Hermen more than Jim, he would ask Hermen with his expertise in game dev what would be the best avenue to take to increase revenue

I don't think live service is a bad idea but the approach needs to be different. Make new teams/pick up new studios with an expertise in it or a team dedicated for long term content pipelines.
 
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I've no doubt they were passionate about doing MP, but that was when the project was Factions and still attached to TLOU2 as an MP component. Expanding it to a full blown GaaS just sounds like SIE higher ups forcing NDs hand. The team are then unable to scope it accordingly due to inexperience and soon the passion for the project starts to dry up. This whole GaaS initiative from Sony is a mistake and is now blowing up in the faces of their teams. I expect more cancellations going forth.
I can factually tell you, SIE didn't force anything on ND. ND truly believed they were fully capable of launching and supporting a live-service title all on their own.

To be fair to ND, what we're now seeing happening in the GAAS/live-service economy is something no one could've predicted really back when they first endeavored into this project (2018/2019). The bar to enter the field is simply far too high, with the resources required, both in terms of manpower and in terms of money, far too steep. When ND set about this, it felt like easy money. The game is also a year late (Covid), which didn't help that those problems grow way worse during that time frame.
 
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vivftp

Member
If only we could find a way to harness the energy of these crazy hot takes. Humanity would be able to power all our needs for the next billion years.
 
What is happening?
Its a myriad of factors but i'll try to summarize it plainly.

First, market expectation. The expectation from the market on what a GAAS or live-service title needs to be at launch has drastically increased in the last 4-5 years. Its not enough that you have a solid MP mode, launched as F2P - you need to have ample loads of modes, passes, cosmetics, earnables, etc. - all day 1 when you launch. Its an unfair comparison, to be sure, but when you launch today, you're immediately compared to the likes of Fortnite, Minecraft, Warzone, Destiny, Rocket League, Apex, Valorant, just to name a few. So if you're not offering a similar breathe of content on day 1 now that those games are offering after years of support, you're already starting well behind the starting line.

Secondly, the above factor also ties into just how big the team sizes need to be not just to deliver the base game, but to keep the game going. When a game as big and as lucrative as Fortnite is still resulting in 18% of Epic's workforce being cut this year, it tells you a lot about just how expensive it is to keep the support teams for these larger projects going. Many of these games launched as either experiments or even as an indie dev project, but now these studios have over 1k devs all working as a content delivery team for a game that has existed for however long. The perception among the financial folks at pubs was that GAAS was super lucrative because a small support crew could maintain the userbase and deliver content, while the primary dev team goes off to make other projects. Nowadays, the cost of running these support teams dwarfs AAA game budgets.

Both the financial commitment and manpower required to make a true swing in the GAAS field has never been higher. Most devs who wanted to get into it never imagined it could've ballooned to this point. And even for the big players, they are all increasingly seeking ways to experiment and grow their base audiences in order to attract large groups of new users (see how Fortnite has expanded in recent weeks).
 

Mr Hyde

Member
I can factually tell you, SIE didn't force anything on ND. ND truly believed they were fully capable of launching and supporting a live-service title all on their own.

Well, that's what the statement reads like. And why should I believe you? What are your credentials? Do you work at ND?
 

Mr Hyde

Member
I have colleagues who worked and work at ND for a long time. Its a small industry. We all share stories.

In that case you should get vetted by the mods because right now you're about as trustworthy as my uncle who works at Nintendo.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Its a myriad of factors but i'll try to summarize it plainly.

First, market expectation. The expectation from the market on what a GAAS or live-service title needs to be at launch has drastically increased in the last 4-5 years. Its not enough that you have a solid MP mode, launched as F2P - you need to have ample loads of modes, passes, cosmetics, earnables, etc. - all day 1 when you launch.
The Finals and Lethal Company kind of disprove your theory here. The Finals has 2 game modes, and pretty sparse cosmetics at the moment. It's a huge hit because the core gameplay is so enjoyable. Lethal Company has turned into a revelation and it's made by 1 person.

People do this a lot online, but it's so overwhelmingly untrue...Players only care about cosmetics and Battle Passes if they love the core game. You're putting the cart before the horse when you overinflated the importance of "modes, passes, cosmetics, and earnables on day 1".

Gamers are much more simple than that. They want games that are fun to play. Once you have that, THEN the secondary stuff becomes important.

Its an unfair comparison, to be sure, but when you launch today, you're immediately compared to the likes of Fortnite, Minecraft, Warzone, Destiny, Rocket League, Apex, Valorant, just to name a few. So if you're not offering a similar breathe of content on day 1 now that those games are offering after years of support, you're already starting well behind the starting line.

I semi agree with your take here. You can't make an inferior version of the games listed above and expect to succeed. You need to do something unique to draw players...because if you're a B tier version of a Fortnite, you're just going to get steamrolled by a bigger, more well oiled machine (Epic Games Fortnite Team).

But this is not new and is something most developers have understood for years now.

Secondly, the above factor also ties into just how big the team sizes need to be not just to deliver the base game, but to keep the game going. When a game as big and as lucrative as Fortnite is still resulting in 18% of Epic's workforce being cut this year, it tells you a lot about just how expensive it is to keep the support teams for these larger projects going.
This point is likely wrong as well. Epic Games is a multifaceted company. The most profitable part of that company is Fortnite. Epic Games Store, is their money pit.

About two-thirds of the layoffs were in teams outside of core development.

The great thing about GAAS that remains true to this day is that, once you have a hit, you're revenue is far more predictable than if you're forced to make big expensive single player games. Epic has a pretty line graph showing revenue trends of Fortnite going all the way back to 2017. That means they can safely budget team sizes without breaking the bank.


Many of these games launched as either experiments or even as an indie dev project, but now these studios have over 1k devs all working as a content delivery team for a game that has existed for however long. The perception among the financial folks at pubs was that GAAS was super lucrative because a small support crew could maintain the userbase and deliver content, while the primary dev team goes off to make other projects. Nowadays, the cost of running these support teams dwarfs AAA game budgets.
There's no good data publically available to see how many employees are working on games like Fortnite, Valorant, League of Legends etc...

A company like PlayStation is far more knowledgeable about that stuff and they're going hog wild into GAAS which suggests the math looks awfully enticing for them.

Both the financial commitment and manpower required to make a true swing in the GAAS field has never been higher. Most devs who wanted to get into it never imagined it could've ballooned to this point. And even for the big players, they are all increasingly seeking ways to experiment and grow their base audiences in order to attract large groups of new users (see how Fortnite has expanded in recent weeks).

PlayStation has repeatedly projected the Live Service segment of the market to grow at a blistering pace over the next 5 years. They have shown a repeated commitment to this process.

Because PlayStation is actually working from numbers, and we're not, I tend to think they know what's up.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Its a myriad of factors but i'll try to summarize it plainly.

First, market expectation. The expectation from the market on what a GAAS or live-service title needs to be at launch has drastically increased in the last 4-5 years. Its not enough that you have a solid MP mode, launched as F2P - you need to have ample loads of modes, passes, cosmetics, earnables, etc. - all day 1 when you launch. Its an unfair comparison, to be sure, but when you launch today, you're immediately compared to the likes of Fortnite, Minecraft, Warzone, Destiny, Rocket League, Apex, Valorant, just to name a few. So if you're not offering a similar breathe of content on day 1 now that those games are offering after years of support, you're already starting well behind the starting line.

Secondly, the above factor also ties into just how big the team sizes need to be not just to deliver the base game, but to keep the game going. When a game as big and as lucrative as Fortnite is still resulting in 18% of Epic's workforce being cut this year, it tells you a lot about just how expensive it is to keep the support teams for these larger projects going. Many of these games launched as either experiments or even as an indie dev project, but now these studios have over 1k devs all working as a content delivery team for a game that has existed for however long. The perception among the financial folks at pubs was that GAAS was super lucrative because a small support crew could maintain the userbase and deliver content, while the primary dev team goes off to make other projects. Nowadays, the cost of running these support teams dwarfs AAA game budgets.

Both the financial commitment and manpower required to make a true swing in the GAAS field has never been higher. Most devs who wanted to get into it never imagined it could've ballooned to this point. And even for the big players, they are all increasingly seeking ways to experiment and grow their base audiences in order to attract large groups of new users (see how Fortnite has expanded in recent weeks).


What are the chances they just salvage some of the resources used in this project for a Last of Us Part III Multiplayer mode?

Just about all their major games since the PS3 era (outside of Part II) released with multiplayer. It would be hard to see them completely going away from it.
 

ungalo

Member
This just reads like someone higher up at ND or SIE (most likely Jim) wanted ND to become a full on GaaS-studio
I doubt that was his goal , he just wanted to actually make profit with strong IPs, which is understandable. But i think they tried with a cautious and nuanced approach.

But even that didn't really fit with the studio or the IP. I don't think the studio was reluctant at first, they had MP in all their previous games, perhaps they just underestimated the challenge of a fully multiplayer experience in this day and age with their current skill.
 
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