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[Zolo]

From the same game

Spoiler

Also know there's a male nude scene (though no gentials due to rating system and possibly android design?)

 

[thebaroness]

Kaine is actually an excellent example of my point.

You can write her off as just titillation, but she *does* have a good reason for dressing how she does.

Spoiler

(she's a hermaphrodite and was persecuted for it growing up. Has a complex and decides to be hella sexy to show she's female)

She's complex, well written, and strong. I've heard from a number of friends that's she's very empowering for trans people. Who are you to tell someone trans that this is harmful to them?

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

If we can't have waifus then no Husbandos either.

 

[LotusHD]

Don't like it. Would rather be a male. No specific reason just innate preference. Say whatever you want SJWs.

Still will play Horizon though. Looks amazing.

Isn't that so heartwarming guys? Horizon is so amazing, it broke through his "innate preferences".

 

[Dame]

Only one that comes to mind. The "change" if it exists, comes at a snails pace unfortunately.
At least, for the next year, like OP said, we'll have 3 major releases.

we just can't have anything nice without there needing to be some form of sexualisation to them can we? just once though? Back to beyond good & evil, i guess.

 

[gow3isben]

Well, you certainly won't be discussing it on here.

Why not?

Just because I like playing as a dude doesn't mean I can't enjoy and talk about a game with a chick.

Isn't that so heartwarming guys? Horizon is so amazing, it broke through his "innate preferences".

Tomb Raider is the only other game so far in recent memory that did so as well. Last of Us and Lost Legacy will be others.

 

[RainForce]

I mean I would still find that a bit creepy, to elaborate on this, I'm a 3D animator, so for me, while working with a rig, that rig is like my child, I wouldn't want people to fap to my child or to use a rig I created for that purpose.

If you're expecting any sort of success, even minimally, I would hope you prepare yourself for people using your rigs for exactly that reason. Even if it's not the exact rigs themselves, people are more than willing to do very close recreations. Plenty of people that can churn out MMD porn quickly. Hell, with your controversial visibility, I wouldn't put it past people to make them just to spite you.

It's also a pretty uncommon stance to have from people growing up in the internet era. Every artist friend I know would be flattered if someone drew porn of their work. That shows that people love the work/art so much that they see it as having enough potential to get sexually aroused by.

 

[Primethius]

Only one that comes to mind. The "change" if it exists, comes at a snails pace unfortunately.
At least, for the next year, like OP said, we'll have 3 major releases.

Edit: found out the uncharted one was just dlc, like that assasin's creed game with the black girl a few years back. oh well. It is something still.

I'm playing through Dishonored 2 and man, as much as I appreciate being able to play as Emily, 4 missions in and you can feel that like no effort was put into making her stand out. That her and Corvo share so much early dialogue makes her feel more like a different skin then an actual character.

 

[Dame]

I'm playing through Dishonored 2 and man, as much as I appreciate being able to play as Emily, 4 missions in and you can feel that like no effort was put into making her stand out. That her and Corvo share so much early dialogue makes her feel more like a different skin then an actual character.

Damn. That sucks. Sorry to hear that. Guess it seems like they just figured they already had a male, might as well throw in a woman for brownie points in there. C for effort,though?

 

[Zolo]

Why not?

Statements like this:

Say whatever you want SJWs.

tend to get you banned. Bans for junior members are permanent.

 

[Crossing Eden]

When someone says that something is a video game in response, they are pointing out that it's fiction and not real life and/or not attempting to recreate real life events or qualities in its exactness. By virtue of its inherent nature of being fictional, video games and all other media that fall under the category of fiction are subject only to the rules set in place by its creator, being unbound by the limitations of reality and bound only by the limits of imagination.

The reason I quoted that post was because it looked like the poster was projecting instead of quoting what someone said and/or thought so I asked "Who's saying this" and I still don't have an answer to that.

Bringing up that people use a shorthand phrase to explain that fictional worlds in games run under their own self defined rules does not answer this.

Many people early in the thread answered criticism with "it's a video game."

The designs only need to be grounded within the worlds they're actually taking place in. That's why Ellie's design would make no sense for Nier. Ellie's clearly designed like a human in modern society. 2B's design on the other hand fits perfectly within that world. Or do you want everything to be grounded by real world logic rather than the logic a game creates for itself?


From the same game

You should read the whole post, why is 9S wearing a collared shirt and shorts when he could be wearing something more akin to what 2B is wearing aside from the color scheme? Ok, here's an example of this in action, AC:Syndicate has two protagonists, one male, one female, during the fight club minigame, all of the contenstants for the most part are completely shirtless, Jacob obliges with the trend and openly shows off his chest:

but here's the thing, Evie can participate in this activity too, now, she's a woman, women in games typically show off their midriff, some cleave, maybe her clothing can be destroyed too, wait no, this is what she looks like:

it fits, everything about that has an explanation, both are treated equally in this situation. Now compare that to something like 2B and 9S side by side or even the concept of the other character you can play as apparently that's a male model. There's a contrast without there being a disparity in a game like Syndicate while a disparity exists in Nier. That disparity is common despite exceptions like the two men you posted pictures of. Who probably weren't designed with cosplay in mind. >_> Not gonna lie I don't even find those two characters very sexy. Small heads.

If you're expecting any sort of success, even minimally, I would hope you prepare yourself for people using your rigs for exactly that reason. Even if it's not the exact rigs themselves, people are more than willing to do very close recreations. Plenty of people that can churn out MMD porn quickly. Hell, with your controversial visibility, I wouldn't put it past people to make them just to spite you.

I'm aware but I don't openly post downloadable rigs online.

It's also a pretty uncommon stance to have from people growing up in the internet era. Every artist friend I know would be flattered if someone drew porn of their work. That shows that people love the work/art so much that they see it as having enough potential to get sexually aroused by.

I've talked about that sorta thing with many of my friends and gotten different opinions. Some would be grossed out others would be fine with it, i've even been asked if I've made 3D pornography. I know people who make pornography commissions. It's a very different ballpark than say out of place sexualization in a game.

 

[gow3isben]

Statements like this:



tend to get you banned. Bans for junior members are permanent.

Ok just edited that out. My bad. Didn't know.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

we just can't have anything nice without there needing to be some form of sexualisation to them can we? just once though? Back to beyond good & evil, i guess.

Bye?

 

[jayu26]

we just can't have anything nice without there needing to be some form of sexualisation to them can we? just once though? Back to beyond good & evil, i guess.

Jade also shows middrift.

Get out of here perv.../s

 

[Jocund]

Damn. That sucks. Sorry to hear that. Guess it seems like they just figured they already had a male, might as well throw in a woman for brownie points in there. C for effort,though?

Wouldn't it be the reverse? The reveal trailer starred Emily, right? I think Corvo was the afterthought. It feels more like her story, too.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

...well this thread certainlty went to places.

As far as Im concerned if anyone wants to fap to video game character then fine by me. We all have our sexual preferences, even though I find some of it absolutely bloody weird.

And I did work on animation so I understand now wanting your work being sexualised, but you just cant stop these thjngs from happening.

 

[Dame]

.

 

[Dame]

Wouldn't it be the reverse? The reveal trailer starred Emily, right? I think Corvo was the afterthought..

Only the guy i responded to would know for sure,really. He's played the game. If he feels like there was no thought put into her at all vs the other guy, then that may or may not have some merit. i'm responding to him in kind.


that midriff response was kinda funny.

Only the guy i responded to would know for sure,really. He's played the game. If he feels like there was no thought put into her at all vs the other guy, then that may or may not have some merit. i'm responding to him in kind.

that midriff response was kinda funny.

And I did work on animation so I understand not wanting your work being sexualised, but you just cant stop these things from happening.

true,true. Just seems cliched when it is purposefully done for the sake of appealing to a demographic is all. Also, i just double posted liek an idiot. how do you delete one again?

Dishonored 2 was designed with Emily in mind first

My saying appealing to a demographic was speaking toward women who are sexualised for the sake of it, not Emily. Again, i know nothing past what this guy's experience is,and i'm speaking on his notions of it. If you feel she was characterized past being cardboard, then yay. He may be wrong.

 

[Crossing Eden]

true,true. Just seems cliched when it is purposefully done for the sake of appealing to a demographic is all.

Dishonored 2 was designed with Emily in mind first and foremost but they also wanted to give players the option to play as Corvo as Arkane is ALL about player agency. So the dialogue was written with Emily first and then they got the actor from Thief to do Corvo's voice for some meta brownie points. Both characters seeing the game dialogue is just cost cutting at that point. Same reasons why you can play as a woman in Prey 2 despite the original CG trailer featuring a male. I'm not seeing what your issue is since half the audience is comprised of women so why not give them some equal representation to?

 

[Gxgear]

She's not, I love Kat design, but they're starting with the questionable outfits already

Um did you not play the original? Schoolgirl, maid, and a revealing spy outfit.

 

[SolidSnakex]

You should read the whole post, why is 9S wearing a collared shirt and shorts when he could be wearing something more akin to what 2B is wearing aside from the color scheme? Ok, here's an example of this in action, AC:Syndicate has two protagonists, one male, one female, during the fight club minigame, all of the contenstants for the most part are completely shirtless, Jacob obliges with the trend and openly shows off his chest:

I read your whole post. You claim it creates a gender disparity when it doesn't. If 9S was the only male character in the game and 2B and A2 were the only female characters, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. It's a game where some male characters are dressed provocatively and some female characters are dressed that way. There are also female characters dressed in a more conservative manner (like Anemone) as well as male characters. It's not the one note system with genders that you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[Zolo]

The argument could also be made that 9S is also designed to look like a young teenager and the others like full-grown women.

 

[Jocund]

Only the guy i responded to would know for sure,really. He's played the game. If he feels like there was no thought put into her at all vs the other guy, then that may or may not have some merit. i'm responding to him in kind.


that midriff response was kinda funny.

Oh, my bad. I wasn't coming at you or anything. Just conversatin'.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I read your whole post. You claim it creates a gender disparity when it doesn't. If 9S was the only male character in the game and 2B and A2 were the only female characters, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. It's a game where some male characters are dressed provocatively and some female characters are dressed that way. There are also female characters dressed in a more conservative manner (like Anemone) as well as male characters. It's not the one note system with genders that you're trying to make it out to be.

Anemone looks like a great character design but like those two men, she seems to be the exception compared to the rest of the cast.

The argument could also be made that 9S is also designed to look like a young teenager and the others like full-grown women.

Despite their bodies being comprised of mostly legs they have that perpetually young anime face thing going on. I mean, 9S is barely shorter than 2B and she's wearing relatively large heels.

 

[Primethius]

Damn. That sucks. Sorry to hear that. Guess it seems like they just figured they already had a male, might as well throw in a woman for brownie points in there. C for effort,though?

Yea, I appreciate being able to play Emily regardless.

But with Dishonored 1, I felt like I got to know Corvo a bit a few missions in. Most of Emily's dialogue so far is generic observations about the plot and world.

There isn't much in the way of actual characterization. You could plop in mostly in character and the dialogue would largely work.

 

[Zolo]

Despite their bodies being comprised of mostly legs they have that perpetually young anime face thing going on. I mean, 9S is barely shorter than 2B and she's wearing relatively large heels.

I mean...maybe it's because women are naturally shorter than guys, but I still see 9S's design more as a young teenager while 2B's is more of a full-grown woman (18-25 range anyway).

 

[Crossing Eden]

I mean...maybe it's because women are naturally shorter than guys, but I still see 9S's design more as a young teenager while 2B's is more of a full-grown woman (18-25 range anyway).

I mean a young woman wouldn't be shorter than a young teenager. Like say senior in high school compared to a freshman. Their physical ages are conveyed more by their voices than their heights. But again, they got the perpetually young flawless anime face thing going on so she could be 25 and we wouldn't be able to tell. ._.

 

[LotusHD]

Um did you not play the original? Schoolgirl, maid, and a revealing spy outfit.

Meh, the game had scenarios/context for which to put her in said outfits, rather than them merely giving her those outfits and then just simply calling it a day. Though of course, the Spy costume is still questionable nonetheless both in terms of how she was convinced to wear it, and that it is obviously more revealing than the others, but meh. It's just a cute outfit, a character shouldn't necessarily be forbidden from wearing them, especially when in general her character is handled pretty well imo. The spy costume aside, the rest of her costumes were completely tame imo, along with a Special Defense force outfit. Same thing will probably happen in the sequel, in which she gets scenarios in which to have outfits for her temporary roles as a jazz singer, a nurse, and a waitress, as well as an outfit that's just her in a simple tanktop.

Does she have a few outfits that also happen to be considered to be common fetishes? Yes, I can't deny that. But I felt that they handled it rather well all things considered, and it's not as if those are the only outfits accessible to her. Plus it also helps that they present her character as someone who loves to dress up.

But that costume that has her in her freaking underwear, yea, that's just disgusting (plus, it's just flat-out ugly) in a way that I couldn't possibly try to defend at all. People may have already taken issue with her old outfits, but that's the one that just blatantly sticks out to me in terms of being inappropriate.

 

[Tohsaka]

Meh, the game had scenarios/context for which to put her in said outfits, rather than them merely giving her those outfits and then just simply calling it a day. Though of course, the Spy costume is still questionable nonetheless both in terms of how she was convinced to wear it, and that it is obviously more revealing than the others, but meh. It's just a cute outfit, a character shouldn't necessarily be forbidden from wearing them, especially when in general her character is handled pretty well imo. The spy costume aside, the rest of her costumes were completely tame imo, along with a Special Defense force outfit. Same thing will probably happen in the sequel, in which she gets scenarios in which to have outfits for her temporary roles as a jazz singer, a nurse, and a waitress, as well as an outfit that's just her in a simple tanktop.

Does she have a few outfits that also happen to be considered to be common fetishes? Yes, I can't deny that. But I felt that they handled it rather well all things considered, and it's not as if those are the only outfits accessible to her. Plus it also helps that they present her character as someone who loves to dress up.

But that costume that has her in her freaking underwear, yea, that's just disgusting (plus, it's just flat-out ugly) in a way that I couldn't possibly try to defend at all. People may have already taken issue with her old outfits, but that's the one that just blatantly sticks out to me in terms of being inappropriate.

I think we may not even get that one in the west, since it's a Phantasy Star Online 2 crossover and that was never localized.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

The discussion about the character in Horizon having a midriff costume is hilarious. I think it's tastefully designed as far as costumes go.

Dont you guys have female friends who like showing their midriffs? Hell even my wife did even though she's more conservative now. It's for a fact that there a lot of women who dont mind it, even like it as long as it's tasteful.

That said we really need more females discussing about the designs here in this thread.

 

[Mega]

This article explains really well why the sex scenes in Wolfenstein work as well as they do. The only way it could be improved imho is if they didn't create a plot where BJ was camotose for as long as he was and still a perfectly chiseled example of human perfection but the game doesn't try to be THAT realistic despite dealing with heavy subject matter. For me I don't consider it appropriate in the vast majority of situations because I understand the really transparent intent behind it, 2B being an example well because the character designer has a fetish for large thighs and long legs and apparently leotards, that to me is pretty backwards, as people are SO accepting of mindsets and design philosophies like that compared to when it's the other way around say that mobile FF game that had an absurdly sexualized male protagonist and wasn't apologetic about it, because they're so used to easy self insertion and aren't used to as men being objectified. Plus it either usually has nothing to do with the setting itself, OR has an incredibly convoluted or "why or how would a human being think like this in any situation" reason why it's there. Like why did Kaine specifically choose lingerie? Why did Quiet specifically choose a thong, bikini, ripped leggings, and two different gloves? etc. 9S doesn't appear to be wearing a leotard whatsoever, it creates this gender disparity despite having two males that may or may not have been designed with women in mind, but they're the exception. Compared to say the disparity in this picture where one of these things is not like the others because it has a dick.

The article seems hung up on the fact that people are having ordinary sex in a grim setting (and the woman initiated it), as if that gives it purpose above other "lesser" sex scenes in other media. Thats very restrictive. Also this part:

We so rarely see people simply enjoying the act of sex in pop culture that having it presented in this way seems downright progressive for games.

Is complete bullshit pulled out of thin air. Entirely baseless and untrue that anyone who has seen a modest number of movies or show's can verify.

Is it bad that a creator has a leg fetish and translates it into his work? Tarantino has a foot thing, no big deal. Chris Sanders (Lilo and Stitch) loves his full, curvy girls. If your personal, maybe pervy quirks find themselves into your work, it's like... so fucking what?

So just to be clear you do not ever allow yourself to enjoy stuff like Bayonetta? I'm trying to understand but all I'm getting is that you're very much... No Fun Allowed (if it doesn't meet your personal test of appropriateness and purpose). Everything has to be practical just because? Everything has to put function over form? Safe, inoffensive should not be the order of the day every single time. A woman (fictional or otherwise) CANT just be dressed sexy without a deeper meaning or a backdrop of tragedy, dreariness and drama to justify it?

Let me ask you... do you think burlesque dancers, strippers and women who cam for a living are bad? The people who partake in what they do? Could you see yourself going to a strip club just to enjoy titillation?

Part of the reason so many people dislike me on this forum is that I critique both.

My reasons for my issues with you are pretty clear (outlined above and in my last few posts) and it's not because you critique things. You come across as a sex-negative conservative feminist with a penchant for being controlling and wanting to force your stuffy perspective onto others. I know some very progressive feminists who would really dislike the stuff you mouth off.

 

[RainForce]

Part of the reason so many people dislike me on this forum is that I critique both.

I really don't think that's why.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

That said we really need more females discussing about the designs here in this thread.

Yeah, would be interesting. But we did have two(?) but they were at the oppersite ends of the debate.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Yeah, would be interesting. But we did have two(?) but they were at the oppersite ends of the debate.

It would be fine, because Id rather have more of their input.

Im more for conservative designs. Reason why I dont play the Bayonetta series is due to how the game's aesthetics are, but the way some are saying in this game is that girls dont like females in games to be sexualised. This is wrong and generalising.

If this is true Tumblr wouldnt be full of sexy female fanarts. Also sexy male on male fanarts for that matter.

 

[LotusHD]

I really don't think that's why.

Same...

The discussion about the character in Horizon having a midriff costume is hilarious. I think it's tastefully designed as far as costumes go.

Dont you guys have female friends who like showing their midriffs? Hell even my wife did even though she's more conservative now. It's for a fact that there a lot of women who dont mind it, even like it as long as it's tasteful.

That said we really need more females discussing about the designs here in this thread.

I have a few that do. Seriously though, complaining about it, especially when it's not like even the default attire, just sounds so whiny to me. Like I legitimately had no idea that too would be considered as inappropriate, impractical or whatever other words were used to describe it. Because like damn, if some midriff isn't allowed, what is? Or is showing skin always a huge no-no? But to each their own I guess.

I think we may not even get that one in the west, since it's a Phantasy Star Online 2 crossover and that was never localized.

I mean, I'd still cringe regardless of whether or not we got it in the West. It's just that, more or less everything else people find questionable concerning Kat and her attire, I'd be willing to defend it, to discuss it in general. That outfit though? There's just nothing to say. Is it even based off of a character?

 

[Dame]

It would be fine, because Id rather have more of their input.

Im more for conservative designs. Reason why I dont play the Bayonetta series is due to how the game's aesthetics are, but the way some are saying in this game is that girls dont like females in games to be sexualised. This is wrong and generalising.

If this is true Tumblr wouldnt be full of sexy female fanarts. Also sexy male on male fanarts for that matter.

Did you just site the presumably majority of male artists drawing waifus/sexualized girls on tumblr as a reason to decry women who claim to be tired of being sexualized in media? This is an interesting assertion. Please elaborate if you have the time.

I do agree with you that we need more women's input on women's designs,though. I wonder if Hideo Kojima were a woman, would he have bothered to make up the excuse of why Quiet goes into combat with ripped stockings, though i digress.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The article seems hung up on the fact that people are having ordinary sex in a grim setting (and the woman initiated it), as if that gives it purpose above other "lesser" sex scenes in other media. Thats very restrictive. Also this part

It's not restrictive at all. The framing, context, the way sex is shown, it's not focusing on the sex itself but on what the meaning behind the act is. Like the fight scenes in The Assassin not being bloody at all and only being a minute long in the majority of them.

Is complete bullshit pulled out of thin air. Entirely baseless and untrue that anyone who has seen a modest number of movies or show's can verify.
He's wrong when it comes to pop culture but holy shit is he right when it comes to how video games portray sex.

Is it bad that a creator has a leg fetish and translates it into his work? Tarantino has a foot thing, no big deal. Chris Sanders (Lilo and Stitch) loves his full, curvy girls. If your personal, maybe pervy quirks find themselves into your work, it's like... so fucking what?

How do you feel about the animated version of the killing joke, or Padme's outfits in Star Wars?

So just to be clear you do not ever allow yourself to enjoy stuff like Bayonetta? I'm trying to understand but all I'm getting is that you're very much... No Fun Allowed (if it doesn't meet your personal test of appropriateness and purpose).

No not really as there's so many other games to enjoy, it's not that i'm "not allowing" myself to enjoy something or have a no fun allowed attitude, it's just that I can choose to indulge in other media that's just as fun without the hangups.

Everything has to be practical just because? Everything has to put function over form? Safe, inoffensive should not be the order of the day every single time. A woman (fictional or otherwise) CANT just be dressed sexy without a deeper meaning or a backdrop of tragedy, dreariness and drama to justify it?

How do you feel about every playable woman in david cage games having scenes involving rape?

Let me ask you... do you think burlesque dancers, strippers and women who cam for a living are bad? The people who partake in what they do? Could you see yourself going to a strip club just to enjoy titillation?

Don't compare women irl with women designed by teams of men.

I really don't think that's why.

Oh no it really is. It's odd seeing the disparity in the reactions with discussions with people irl and people on a forum. I've never been called xenophobic irl by people who disagree with me. I've never been called racist, no one has ever harassed me, or threatened me, people irl don't use random ad hominem, and are generally much better at explaining their point of view without resorting to things like "it's just a video game." Etc. It's pretty uncanny.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Did you just site the presumably majority of male artists drawing waifus/sexualized girls on tumblr as a reason to decry women who claim to be tired of being sexualized in media? This is an interesting assertion. Please elaborate if you have the time.

I do agree with you that we need more women's input on women's designs,though. I wonder if Hideo Kojima were a woman, would he have bothered to make up the excuse of why Quiet goes into combat with ripped stockings, though i digress.

No, because more than a few of those artists drwing those sexualised women are women themselves. Some like it that way.

Dont assume that I think that over-sexualising isnt an issue. It definitely is, and the argument about it can be better in this thread with more women discussing it, that's all.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I mean a young woman wouldn't be shorter than a young teenager. Like say senior in high school compared to a freshman. Their physical ages are conveyed more by their voices than their heights. But again, they got the perpetually young flawless anime face thing going on so she could be 25 and we wouldn't be able to tell. ._.

She is a robot/android.

I find this entire discussion extremely silly and I will never be convinced that there is anything wrong with any of these designs so I'm done with it.

 

[kuroneko0509]

Same...




I have a few that do. Seriously though, complaining about it, especially when it's not like even the default attire, just sounds so whiny to me. Like I legitimately had no idea that too would be considered as inappropriate, impractical or whatever other words were used to describe it. Because like damn, if some midriff isn't allowed, what is? Or is showing skin always a huge no-no? But to each their own I guess.



I mean, I'd still cringe regardless of whether or not we got it in the West. It's just that, more or less everything else people find questionable concerning Kat and her attire, I'd be willing to defend it, to discuss it in general. That outfit though? There's just nothing to say. Is it even based off of a character?

it looks based off an original outfit in pso2:

www.segalization.com/2016/12/16/gravity-rush-2-getting-phantasy-star-online-2-costume-photo-items

https://i0.wp.com/www.segalization....Online-2-Crazy-Kitten-Costume.jpg?w=800&ssl=1

 

[LotusHD]

it looks based off an original outfit in pso2:

www.segalization.com/2016/12/16/gravity-rush-2-getting-phantasy-star-online-2-costume-photo-items

https://i0.wp.com/www.segalization....Online-2-Crazy-Kitten-Costume.jpg?w=800&ssl=1

I see. That makes it like 0.00000001% better lol, I had thought it was some original costume they had come up with for her.

 

[thebaroness]

Things like GG and the constant harassment of women in this medium whether they're gamers or are the direct result of men constantly being pandered to specifically and the medium changing because hey, women are people too, not objects.

Media should represent them as people imho because the constant objectification has had devastating effects on the audience so far. For instance, look at how many people defend virtual sexual harassment as an ok thing to happen, or how far they'll go to defend a character like Quiet. It's terrible. Is getting better, but seemingly the west is putting in much more work in this regard despite the incredibly pertinent harassment to anyone who even dares to speak up like that woman who lost her job at Nintendo after being explicitly targeted for something she didn't do.

Take this from someone who has been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, the issue is NOT because of sex appeal within media. It's a much large issue that spans multiple cultures and usually stems from negative views on sex as a whole. In this very conversation, you continue to dodge my inquiries when I present a difference between sex appeal and objectification. You treat them as though they are the same. It's the same negative view on sex that would lead someone to think a stripper isn't a person.
Indeed, you as an artist act like a father for your character, a father that points a shotgun at any man that dare glance at his daughter.

You present positive female characters as those who keep their clothes on, and negative characters are those who wear less. I would argue that some of your examples are less progressive because they don't have a strong personality or character of their own. (Evie) While I think Cidney is great, she spunky and adorable, has a unique personality, has a job she's great at. She's not a poor character just because she's in an orange bikini.

My point is writing in games and media as a whole needs to grow. But eradicating any sex appeal in costume design isn't the solution.

 

[MaKTaiL]

We need strong powerful women that are not necessarily sex symbols in their design. Horizon Zero Dawn is a perfect example of that. Alloy isn't perfect, yet she is beautiful in her own way without the need for large boobs and ass. She doesn't need to walk in a bikini to be badass.

EDIT

Another example is Life is Strange. Two great female leads with strong personalities. Or even Walking Dead and Clementine's character.

EDIT 2

Forgot about Ellie on The Last of Us.

 

[Tohsaka]

Take this from someone who has been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, the issue is NOT because of sex appeal within media. It's a much large issue that spans multiple cultures and usually stems from negative views on sex as a whole. In this very conversation, you continue to dodge my inquiries when I present a difference between sex appeal and objectification. You treat them as though they are the same. It's the same negative view on sex that would lead someone to think a stripper isn't a person.
Indeed, you as an artist act like a father for your character, a father that points a shotgun at any man that dare glance at his daughter.

You present positive female characters as those who keep their clothes on, and negative characters are those who wear less. I would argue that some of your examples are less progressive because they don't have a strong personality or character of their own. (Evie) While I think Cidney is great, she spunky and adorable, has a unique personality, has a job she's great at. She's not a poor character just because she's in an orange bikini.

My point is writing in games and media as a whole needs to grow. But eradicating any sex appeal in costume design isn't the solution.

Great post. There was so much shitposting about Cidney but she wasn't even a bad character or anything, and was one of the most helpful NPCs in the game.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Great post. There was so much shitposting about Cidney but she wasn't even a bad character or anything, and was one of the most helpful NPCs in the game.

Not sure if this is the right word but I guess people around here were being shallow. Only judging her looks and not how helpful and fun her personality is.

 

[Mega]

but holy shit is he right when it comes to how video games portray sex.

Sometimes, yes. AAA gaming ain't doing a good job in this area of having scenes that aren't written for a horny 13 year old.

How do you feel about the animated version of the killing joke, or Padme's outfits in Star Wars?

Haven't seen Killing Joke yet. Padme's outfits do not bother me, why should they? Far more disturbing is her nonsensical stalker-abuser relationship with Anakin the Creep. He didn't earn her looking sexy and making eyes at him in a cozy chamber. Any decently written girl would have been like, I'm busy bye weirdo.

No not really as there's so many other games to enjoy, it's not that i'm "not allowing" myself to enjoy something or have a no fun allowed attitude, it's just that I can choose to indulge in other media that's just as fun without the hangups.

So you're a conservative. Got it. No shame in that, just don't misconstrue your POV as being progressive.

How do you feel about every playable woman in david cage games having scenes involving rape?

Doesn't phase me. Maybe he shouldn't be so repetitive, that's about it.

Don't compare women irl with women designed by teams of men.

I was not. Go back and reread what I said and stop deflecting. It was a question for you and about you. Maybe try answering before you read into it what isn't there.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Take this from someone who has been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, the issue is NOT because of sex appeal within media.

That's a large part of it. There's a really big difference between sex appeal and straight up objectification, just

It's a much large issue that spans multiple cultures and usually stems from negative views on sex as a whole.

Along with the objectification of women in media. Just to clarify, women in real life have agency. And often times women are treated more like dolls than actual people. Just HOW often is a female character genuinely portrayed in a mundane heteroexual relationship in gaming that isn't absolutely absurd.

In this very conversation, you continue to dodge my inquiries when I present a difference between sex appeal and objectification.

Because we're talking about examples of objectified characters.

You treat them as though they are the same. It's the same negative view on sex that would lead someone to think a stripper isn't a person.

In many cases of gaming they ARE the same. None of what they're doing has any reason to do with sex whatsoever! A stripper in real life, has a shit ton more justification and agency in her actions than a video game character designed by men for other men.

Indeed, you as an artist act like a father for your character, a father that points a shotgun at any man that dare glance at his daughter.

As one of the only three men in a family comprised of women this is a bafflingly bad interpretation of my views.

You present positive female characters as those who keep their clothes on, and negative characters are those who wear less.

I present positive examples of characters who're reasonably dressed in the context of what they're doing, instead of characters who were designed by people who're trying to encourage cosplay.

I would argue that some of your examples are less progressive because they don't have a strong personality or character of their own. (Evie)

Evie Frye has plenty of character in her game and is actually allowed to have a relationship, with a colored male no less.

While I think Cidney is great, she spunky and adorable, has a unique personality, has a job she's great at. She's not a poor character just because she's in an orange bikini.

Or because she literally doesn't have a character arc, never looks like she's doing anything that even remotely resembles being a mechanic, is treated like an object by the devs, and has a stereotypically bad accent.

My point is writing in games and media as a whole needs to grow. But eradicating any sex appeal in costume design isn't the solution.

Maybe if devs think more about how to make their characters seem less like objects for the male gaze and more like actual people the writing will get better. How the fuck is Cindy a positive example of representation or has a unique personality? What even IS her personality because the majority of her lines include you going to get an object for her. Her animation doesn't even convey a personality. She's so little of a character that she doesn't even have a model for the endgame.

Sometimes, yes. AAA gaming ain't doing a good job in this area of having scenes that aren't written for a horny 13 year old.

And yet Wolfenstein's take on it would absolutely work in a film.

Haven't seen Killing Joke yet. Padme's outfits do not bother me, why should they? Far more disturbing is her nonsensical stalker-abuser relationship with Anakin the Creep. He didn't earn her looking sexy and making eyes at him in a cozy chamber. Any decently written girl would have been like, I'm busy bye weirdo.

Yes, she's terrible. And her outfit design makes zero sense in the context of her character.

So you're a conservative. Got it. No shame in that, just don't misconstrue your POV as being progressive.

You guys are literally arguing that we should praise character design that completely goes for the status quo in the context of the representation of women in Japanese media yet i'm the conservative for critiquing that. Yea ok.

Doesn't phase me. Maybe he shouldn't be so repetitive, that's about it.

You don't see the issue in women specifically, in every time we get them as playable, including a scenario that involves rape. Wow.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Nothing like a man telling a woman she's wrong about her thoughts in female characterisation and design.

 

[Mega]

I present positive examples of characters who're reasonably dressed in the context of what they're doing, instead of characters who were designed by people who're trying to encourage cosplay.

Who made you an authority on what is reasonable dress in a fictional setting? What is wrong with cosplay?

You guys are literally arguing that we should praise character design that completely goes for the status quo in the context of the representation of women in Japanese media yet i'm the conservative for critiquing that. Yea ok.

Dude, you're not pushing the envelope like you imagine. You're a liberal Jack Thompson with misguided good intentions. I just want sexuality of all manner to get less judgmental crap, same as depictions of violence. I want more chill attitudes towards all this stuff instead of the digging and digging for criticisms to levy against games.

You don't see the issue in women specifically, in every time we get them as playable, including a scenario that involves rape. Wow.

Uh. I said he should be less repetitive, so that it doesn't become a thing he's known for and people don't dwell on it.

 

[RainForce]

Oh no it really is. It's odd seeing the disparity in the reactions with discussions with people irl and people on a forum. I've never been called xenophobic irl by people who disagree with me. I've never been called racist, no one has ever harassed me, or threatened me, people irl don't use random ad hominem, and are generally much better at explaining their point of view without resorting to things like "it's just a video game." Etc. It's pretty uncanny.

Conversely, I've never been called a sexist for defending certain character designs irl. Anecdotal evidence is worthless.

And you're making yourself out to be the victim here when all those except maybe the last one are things you've done.

You debate in a very abrasive and arrogant way using both your race and profession as a shield, you call people sexist for their affinity toward certain character designs, you resort to ad hominems and dismissive phrases such as "sorrynotsorry", and on top of all that you sometimes have no clue what you're talking about but persist anyway. I recall a time you argued with someone that Family Guy was better written than an anime you admitted to never having seen because the only anime you deem worth your time is Flowers of Evil. You say your critique is even and balanced among regions, yet it's so grossly skewed toward the west that most of the time your arguments reek of misinformation. I'm surprised you owned up to the misinformation you spewed earlier in the thread about women in the Japanese gaming industry, though you of course decided to go ahead and move the goalposts in the same post. A lot of times when something doesn't fit your narrative, it seems you flat out ignore it. Right now, you're telling a famous female cosplayer how to feel about characters/designs she loves, one that has had to live with all the harassment and other bullshit that comes with such a hobby/job. Do you not see how hypocritical and arrogant that is? So much for women having agency.

And it's not like there aren't other posters that have critiqued both east and west with a known affinity towards one over the other without getting the same level of notoriety as you. It's not what you're arguing, it's the way you're arguing and the ignorance that comes with it. Here's what the number one rule for non-trolling forum-posting should be; if you don't know what you're talking about, don't post.