potatohead
Member
Kat is by far the best one. Most swag. Most interesting character. Just so easy to admire her character
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Anyone else notice a pattern here? (Nier: Automata, GR 2, and Horizon: Zero Dawn)
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Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Because you're in the thread...
Anyway, what made that demo trash? Is it because you don't like NieR and it didn't change your mind?
Fulminator
Member
but how lol. like im not even arguing with anything else you're saying. we've established at this point that the fabric covering her midsection is basically the equivalent of a t shirt, and wouldn't offer any extra protection compared to her skin.
now you're just making things up about how "you shouldn't expose your skin to this kind of environment" when you have no idea what the environment is like, all we know is that it's post apocalyptic, but other than that, you just keep projecting things from your own head on the issue just to prove your point.
like, throw me a bone here at least as to how her linen shirt is any more practical, given the facts that we have at the moment, not based on your opinion of the game and its setting.
like i guess she wouldn't get as dirty, but other than that?
YianGaruga
Banned
And it's so goddamn obvious
The four guys in your party are literally focus tested to hell to appeal to that audience, yet Cindy gets all the hate for being designed to appeal to dudes
I do not understand it
None of the main parties character's outfits make sense for what they're doing in the game
Because it's a fantasy based on Nomura's fever dreams
NinjamicWZ
Banned
...in which your needless affixing of race, nationality etc as a basis of criticism is part of what comprises the racism you're exhibiting and attempt to further establish the idea that you can define racism in a way which you believe will exempt you from accountability whenever you are being racist.
I guess it's because people don't interact with certain fandoms.
They are probably the same people that think Tales of Berseria is more aimed at women than Zestiria because female protagonist.
Exactly, they all dress/look like a boy band group that mostly female audience is going to find that attractive, I know I did.
Agreed.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
He's contributing by obstructing unapologetic, entrenched racism from Crossing Eden so that the conversation can not be monopolized by the underpinnings of abhorrent, consequence free racism which only angers and disgusts non-racists, effectively deterring participation in any possible conversation entirely.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
I'd put 2B behind her, as for Aloy that tribal outfit doesn't do it for me. But it's different.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Dude, the reason we wear clothing and grow body hair is to protect ourselves from the elements, if you're adventuring and you're going to a hot area, like a rain forest which could be filled with any number of bugs, toxins, (the former having sound effects in that trailer), etc. I assume you wouldn't wanna have COMPLETELY exposed skin. She's a tribal hunter so I assume she isn't bathing very frequently. And I'm projecting? Dude i'm not the one who came up with the "it's hot so she's wearing less" thing. The truth is we have no idea what the context behind that outfit is but can critique aspects of its design, namely, a midriff that by all accounts, seems pointlessly exposed.
The other thread about him is pretty much about how bad of a design Cidney is.
Yes but character design is more than just the face of a character, (plus the criticism is that they aren't doll faced or "pretty" enough),
and what the hell does "animated like a male character" mean. Women move incredibly similar to men in any given situation.
The pitch is that she's a tribal hunter in a post sci-fi world, in that regard, it's very believable.
By saying things like "designed like a male" when referring to characters not being doll-faced/thin enough but just as sexualized as a Japanese equivalent.
The differences are nowhere near as severe as you'd think:
This is MK9
This is Soul Calibur 4:
You can attribute that to comics more than anything else. That said, Marvel's been moving a bit more in a practical direction for their female heroes & villains as of late (Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, Gamora, Squirrel Girl, etc.). Even DC's TV shows on CW are being a bit more practical when it comes to female costumes (Black & White Canary, 1940's & Present-Day Vixen, Jessie Quick, & Earth-1 Killer Frost to name a few).What in the world dude? Injustice character designs are not designed as male:Injustice looks like this:
What about that is designed like a male? They're rocking boob armor and lingerie for fighting. What the hell. Injustice is an example of what I usually complain about.
It's more like this is becoming an ever increasing sentiment:
design men with believability in mind, also design women with believability in mind
I could see 2B later becoming my favorite due to her snarky dialogue in the demo, but first I need to play the actual game. With Kat though, it's easy to have her as my favorite due to her already having one game out, because she was just a delight in general in it.
thesolidshark
Member
Clever title, OP. I was curious enough by what all three games had in common, and found a pretty positive topic I like. I remember making a thread with a somewhat similar premise in the past, and have to thank Vex for bringing this up; I wasn't even aware of how many more female-led games were coming out. Despite the derailing, and some amazingly...memorable quoted posts, I'm glad this got some of the intended traction.
There's a good chance I'll be checking all three games out at some point, out of my own interest and some recommendations, and some things I've seen in this thread. Horizon is definitely on my must-try-sometime list, as well as GR1 and 2 since I don't have to have a Vita to play it now (I think). Nier...just hoping it lives up to all the praise. Either way, as I like diverse leads, I have a little more incentive to support these, so thanks for the notice.
There's a good chance I'll be checking all three games out at some point, out of my own interest and some recommendations, and some things I've seen in this thread. Horizon is definitely on my must-try-sometime list, as well as GR1 and 2 since I don't have to have a Vita to play it now (I think). Nier...just hoping it lives up to all the praise. Either way, as I like diverse leads, I have a little more incentive to support these, so thanks for the notice.
Schopenhauerian
Member
So does anyone know if Sony Santa Monica ever got a significant amount of criticism for this?
I've mentioned it before, and I know I'm not the only one who was bothered by it.
While I've also written critically about the protagonist's outfit in NieR: Automata, 2B's outfit doesn't bother me nearly as much as what Sony Santa Monica (an American developer, incidentally) decided to put into their game.
I've mentioned it before, and I know I'm not the only one who was bothered by it.
While I've also written critically about the protagonist's outfit in NieR: Automata, 2B's outfit doesn't bother me nearly as much as what Sony Santa Monica (an American developer, incidentally) decided to put into their game.
Stormblessed
Member
I think this is only notable in the case of Horizon, as Japanese titles regularly feature female leads where Western titles have not. Japan has entire franchises with casts comprised largely or solely of female characters. Any perception of this as a "new" phenomenon in their games is likely shaped by your own ethnocentric biases.
Edit: RE: the above, I think Adam Sessler kicked up a bit of stink at the time, but with the way news cycles work in Gaming, it was swiftly forgotten.
Edit: RE: the above, I think Adam Sessler kicked up a bit of stink at the time, but with the way news cycles work in Gaming, it was swiftly forgotten.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That's good. Generally fighting games and comics are still pretty ridiculous in this regard so good to see them improving especially with characters like Batgirl, Spider Gwen, and Miss Marvel which I appreciate seeing in threads despite not being an avid comic book reader.
Shit like Poseidon princess are why i'm baffled that they're trying to humanize and redeem Kratos when he's incredibly irredeemable and doesn't deserve a peaceful family life let alone a dad simulator. That shit is straight up disturbing.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
I wanna see more of Aloy's personality tbh. I agree with the 2B comment.
Serenade_King
Banned
I know I couldn't and I REALLY want the figure and the steelbox
I would only buy it if by miracle the Black Box edition is released on Amazon kinda like Drakengard 3 only being on the Square store but later also releasing it on Amazon... but I won't hold my breath.Also, god damn I'm still catching up with this thread... just a little bit more.
YianGaruga
Banned
I asked this before but got no reply.
If the bare midriff outfit in Horizon came with terrible defensive stats, would that be okay? Or are you of the opinion that a player should not be allowed to make choices like that?
If the bare midriff outfit in Horizon came with terrible defensive stats, would that be okay? Or are you of the opinion that a player should not be allowed to make choices like that?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I didn't even know Horizon had 'armors' and changeable costumes, does it ?
NinjamicWZ
Banned
...in which you essentially assert that Japan is not compatible with western civilization as if you were Richard Dawkins speaking on Islam in a way that could be said to empower racism, and preemptively justify your nationalist, xenophobic racism as being necessary for the greater good.
YianGaruga
Banned
I have no idea, it's a hypothetical question and I'm simply curious
peronmls
Member
if you look up her skirt she will push away the cameraThe female lead in Nier is wonderful. She appears to have no personality at all, and her eyes are covered so you can focus on her exposed thighs and buttocks, rather than her soul or feelings. Just the way GAF likes it!
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That would be a good subtle criticism of such outfits if she took major damage from piercing attacks. Bioware had this as a small easter egg:
Player agency is a big thing with me so if a player would do something like wear inadequate armor that is by design bad i'm all for that as it's a more overt criticism, like the shields in bloodborne being useless.
In which you completely and utterly misinterpret every single one of my posts as racism despite clear and succinct explanations of their intent. If I critique the absolutely horrendous itemization, fan ownership, and dehumanization of idols would you find that racist too?
Fulminator
Member
yeah fair point, i was thinking about it more from a comfort/battle damage perspective. it only sounded like you were projecting to me bc you were saying things about the environments of the game that we don't really know about other than visuals, but maybe that was just me projecting haha. There are plenty of other environments in the game besides a jungle-esque setting from what we've seen though. And also, like, people do wear less clothing when it's hot, and midriff exposing clothing is something that women do wear, particularly when exercising because your body temperature rises.
i think it's fine to critique, i don't want to to discourage that, and i don't want it to come off like an attack either bc i don't want to attack anybody lol, but i think there is usually discussion to be had about these kinds of things. Ultimately yeah, we won't know anything until the game comes out, and then we can critique further based on the actual context.
Sure, some are even preorder/CE bonuses. There are some images in this very thread.
Cripes. Look, you can address perceptibly racist comments WITHOUT bringing them up on entirely unrelated arguments, alright?
There's an interesting conversation to be had here on the value posters put on the respectful representation of female characters, but it's very difficult to have that conversation when people are constantly trying to discredit posters through ad hom attacks and focusing on extremely minor aspects of the argument instead of the bigger picture.
Frankly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering at this point. I try my best to type up my thoughts but then everyone ignores it in favor of getting outraged at something or other. It's quite tiring.
neohwa
Junior Member
No it doesn't. Why are you making things up?
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/pe...as-more-than-doubled-since-2009/1100-6420680/
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
People do wear less clothing when it's hot true but I would chock that up to not knowing what to do in response to a situation. Like, I'd expect a hunter to know what to wear to protect themselves from the elements as efficiently as possible. And hey I don't think you're attacking me, at least you aren't calling me racist. Ծ_Ծ
Seems I was completely wrong on that front. Apologies. :/ Still, more women work there but it's not very ideal in terms of their influence. and ofc the inequality.
Mithos
Member
How much of a difference could there even be, 50def with, 49def without?
Or are you meaning punishing people that like the "wrong" type of looking armors?
I don't see why it shouldn't. A lot of games are taking the practicality of what you wear into combat as a matter of survival or being foolhardy. In fact, there is a significant portion of games that balance the ability to run around nearly fully naked for the sake of being less restricted in movement. The downside being that one good hit and you get split from shoulder to thigh. It's nothing new. Ghosts N Goblins did it.
Edit to add that those games seem to repel people who aren't interested in that kind of control and the minutiae of building resistance to combat and to the elements. Details like that. Eye candy is never practical in any game with a character that needs to move like their stars depend upon it.
Serenade_King
Banned
i know it doesn't have to do with the conversations happening but reading this just made me think "O yeah, there is supposed to be a new Vanillaware game and I have forgotten about it until now...".
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Piercing attacks having a hell of a stronger effect than they would if she were wearing something like this:
neohwa
Junior Member
No they don't. Observe them. This is why attention to details in Japanese games are so much more superior.
No she would need an armor with a helmet at the very least. It's not very believable that she can survive in the world for more than 1 sec.
Notice how your MK9 character is covered by a mask? Have you even seen what's behind that mask? Does her face look like a female to you? That's how Western devs design their female characters. No thoughts put into them, no clue, or downright offensive.
That would be a good subtle criticism of such outfits if she took major damage from piercing attacks. Bioware had this as a small easter egg:
Funny, because DAI has a character like this:
The majority of her outfits actually leave her chest exposed.
(No, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that outfit myself. It actually works pretty well for that character and it's a pretty good design, but it's clearly not "realistic". And there is nothing wrong with it.)
Astral Dog
Member
Uh, that definetly was a good example as they ended
covering him up due to complains he was too sexualized.
And Neogaf threads noticed him right away.
FF in general is good at this.
Other would be any character with skimpy outfits but thats dwsignated more as simple "manservice" unlike women wich are used more to define their character (any femme fatale like villain)
I guess its simply "easier" to make fanservice for straight boys than anything else in the industry
Funny, because DAI has a character like this:
The majority of her outfits actually leave her chest exposed.
(No, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that outfit myself. I actually works pretty well for that character but it's clearly not "realistic")
To be fair, if that character is ever taking melee damage, you're doing it wrong. But that doesn't invalidate your point.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
If they manage to humanize Kratos and I shed a tear when he dies, yes, he will die, then that's the biggest achievement in recent gaming history.
Also, I was never a big fan of him, and yet I am incredibly hyped after the reveal. Like Persona 5 level hyped.
Bioware is awful. Fill a bar to fuck NPC X. Not thanks.
Edit: Cory Barlog did not make that game.
Also, I was never a big fan of him, and yet I am incredibly hyped after the reveal. Like Persona 5 level hyped.
Bioware is awful. Fill a bar to fuck NPC X. Not thanks.
Edit: Cory Barlog did not make that game.
potatohead
Member
Wow that explanation was fucking obtuse to the max holy shit lol!
Like who the fuck cares it's a fantasy game jesus lmao
+1 to the ignore list
Like who the fuck cares it's a fantasy game jesus lmao
+1 to the ignore list
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Pretty sure I recall Kratos abusing male "survivors" elsewhere in exactly the same way, and the scene in question just showed him being an equal-opportunity psychopath!
I mean, in those games Kratos' answer in practically any situation is to murder the shit out of everyone. The difference between SSM and say Yoko Taro's approach to having such an irredeemable psychpath in the lead is that in the former case they just "leave it there", without comment; whereas the latter is more likely to really lean into it to stress the irony of having such a monstrous "hero" and make the player feel bad about it.
Kaine in Nier's appearance is another example of Yoko really subverting the "sexy heroine" trope and has far more story weight than is initially apparent, so I'd be wary of writing off the androids appearance in Automata too soon also.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes, they do, I go people watching and am an animator. They absolutely do. The differences are subtle unless you go by media.
That armor includes a crown in some form and considering her moveset it's very believable that she can survive as she's very mobile.
Yes, i've seen what Mileena looks like without a mask, she's still unmistakably a woman.
And i'm gonna go out on a limb here, like, completely left field, but I don't think that Mileena is very representative of how the west design female characters. I actually am legitimately struggling to think of other game characters have have a similar mouth to Mileena, and, ofc, lots of thought went into designing a face that looks like that. The most common attribute among women in games is that they're white, and some form of brunette. But thankfully, slowly but surely that's becoming less common. Just going by playable characters this gen:
and ofc Aloy herself.
I missed quite a few.
So I sincerely gotta ask, what in the world are you talking about? None of these women look masculine at all, in fact, a criticism could be that they all have very similar physics.
As someone said earlier year she shouldn't be taking melee hits but I agree that outfit is pretty dumb and a lot of her outfits are similarly revealing. Bioware is about equal opportunity everybody is sexy though, like Dorian getting a sex scene and then the camera pans fades in and he's completely nude. Now if only he had an outfit that showed off his pecks like Varric.Funny, because DAI has a character like this:
The majority of her outfits actually leave her chest exposed.
(No, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that outfit myself. It actually works pretty well for that character and it's a pretty good design, but it's clearly not "realistic". And there is nothing wrong with it.)
Have you seen how Yuri on Ice is doing? Sex sells when it's integrated effectively, picking poor examples doesn't negate that.
Serenade_King
Banned
First off, I finally reached the end of the thread!... I'm a slow reader. And yeah, I thought so too but I remember some people debating it not being sexualized... don't remember the details mentioned since it was a while but I think it was that even if he was light on clothes his pose was more power fantasy rather than fanservice? That's what I think I remember but I could be wrong, my memory can be trash at times :S.
Serenade_King
Banned
Yeah, I knew about her thong leotard before playing the demo but never noticed it on my first play and actually found it wierd when I heard of the complaint about it on her running animation. It seems that some people play with the camera directly on her back while I always angle it a little up.
Crossing Eden got attacked for criticizing waifus. Calling Crossing Eden racist based on what was said is really dumb and skewing what was actually said. Those racism accusations were a deflection if anything. I understand that it's hard to defend some female character designs, so the discussion easily goes off the rails.
SolidSnakex
Member
One of the most well known moments in the series is in the original game where Kratos pushes a caged Spartan into a puzzle where he's burned alive. The soldier is begging for his life the entire time it's happening. The room you have to do it in has another soldier that had committed suicide rather than go through with what was required of him. In the original PAL and Japanese release the caged soldier was changed to an enemy skin that was angry at Kratos rather than begging for its life.
This is a common sentiment of those that have played GR. She's just a fucking awesome character. It says a lot about the good job they did with her when she starts with the "character with amnesia" plotline but it doesn't fall into the usual holes you'd expect with that as a starting point for a character.
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