Anyone else notice a pattern here? (Nier: Automata, GR 2, and Horizon: Zero Dawn)

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Zolo

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Horizon is very aggressively targeted at the audience of teenage girls and young women who are getting into gaming en masse.

It's about a beautiful post apocalyptic setting. it has a very Young Adult Literature plotline. It's rated T. It stars a young woman going out and confronting the greater world around her as she faces rejection at home. The weaponry focuses around outdoorsy tools. Most of the enemies are robots so you wouldn't feel bad about mauling animals to death.

The entire thing is built in the same mold as The Hunger Games, The 100, or Divergent.

I honestly don't think her clothing is put in there to sex up the game, but to give it a modern trendy aesthetic while maintaining the setting of the game.

There are a lot of games aiming toward this these days, and you can see it just looking through the examples listed in the thread.

You actually saw this a lot in the PS1 and PS2 era in regards to games starring guys. We can even just look at something like GTA 3 featuring an up and coming gangster trying to get into the world of crime. Similarly, a lot of the other leading games were about animals with attitude (who were generally teenage dudes) and JRPG dudes trying to save the world while all these stupid adults did nothing.

Now that the male audience is a lot older, GTA V was an ensemble cast of a middle aged guy with a pretty old family going through a midlife crisis, a nearly middle aged guy who had rejected the expectations society placed on him, and a somewhat younger guy getting into crime, but at an older age than you might otherwise expect. You will probably notice the sea of "Dad Simulators" in gaming toward that end as well, and the thematics very much being things targeting older male audiences.

Dishonored 2 and The Last of Us might actually be some of the best examples of both, with Emily and Ellie fitting the younger emerging female audience, while Corvo and Joel target the aging male audience.

But yeah, in general, while it's true that a lot of midriff type outfits are targeted at getting more dudes to play a game, I don't think that's actually the objective of this product.
I feel it partly has to do with aging game developers too.
 

Xadjim

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That bingo card is the dumbest shit ever and only used by people like you to shut down other opinions. Next you'll be calling me a GamerGater

Try harder

There needs to be zero "reasonable explanation" for optional costumes in any game ever. That's ridiculous.

"It's a videogame" is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a lot of things. Not everything of course, but dressing up in "unrealistic" costumes? Absolutely.

Say there was a "cameo" Killzone outfit in the game. Would you be so vehemently against that too? Or is it only when it's a slightly sexy outfit that shows some skin?
I dont really want to argue with anyone here but these bingo cards are really stupid. Asside from the fact that many of the "statements" on this card are just wrong or dont fit to every situation. just as you said, people use these to shut down other opinions and thats actually what bothers me a little right now.
 

Hexa

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That'd be indeed dumb if it were a regular primitive bow and arrow, but they're clearly not...?
I mean just the entire situation. There are robots but only in the form of dinos, and the only way to fight them is bows, arrows, and traps that are similarly super advanced, despite pretty much everything being primitive. The world itself is obviously taking a lot of liberties in terms of whats 'logical' and requires heavy suspension of disbelief to produce something that'll appeal to the player. Trying to argue that something isn't 'logical' or 'doesn't make any sense' in this context is weird. Its an argument that I've only seen to criticize female designs and it always sounds like nonsense to me. If you don't like the design that's fine, but being believable isn't an objective measure of good, rather I personally think most realistic designs are pretty shitty.
 

EventHorizon

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I am not going to be totally naive and say there aren't some valid issues with how women have been (or not at all as the case may be) depicted in video games...

On the other hand "Oh My God!!! They made her too attractive for men." is really difficult to get worked up over. Since when is being attractive a negative, and how did realism in video games ever become a talking point anyone thought had weight?
 

Kenzodielocke

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While I feel that's true to an extent, I'd point to Japan as a counter example, where you have seas of 50+ year olds making games about teenage boys, because that's what the market still primarily is.
I'd like to compare Aloy to Mononoke, and hopefully, she lives up to that.
 

RuinerPrime

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She's not "your character", she's Guerilla's character.
And? I'll still change my outfit on a whim regardless of the character. Did the same with the Witcher.

I think it was one of the interviews up on Gameinformer's youtube channel. They don't want anything overly complex but each piece of gear can have different customization slots.

Do you really think her clothing here is as cool as her original outfit? Her original outfit might be one of my favorite female character designs period. You can make things cool and practical.
I don't mind it, but I really like the red outfit in the CE.
 

Hexa

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I think it was one of the interviews up on Gameinformer's youtube channel. They don't want anything overly complex but each piece of gear can have different customization slots.
Thanks. I wonder how well crafting is going to play into that, I suspect tremendously. Sounds great. :)
Really hope this game hits it out of the park.
 

KR_remix

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Just to address the point about her eyes being covered. As humans we are hardwired to look for eyes in other people and living beings, it helps us to sympathize more with an animal than say a plant. In this case we are literally talking about an object made to look like a human, that then has their most humanizing part covered. The face is how we identify other humans, and a face without eyes is hard to connect to. It is why shooting squads blindfold their victims or shoot them in the back, because they want to dehumanize them first so that they are able to kill them.

Do I think it was the author's intent to make an object appear human then take away the most humanizing part in order to sexualize it even further? Do I think this is some sort of brilliant meta-commentary on objectification? No, neither. They probably just thought the blindfold looked cool, and the fanservice is probably there for the same reason it would be in any other Japanese game.

Also I think you guys are reaching with the midriff stuff.
 

Tesser

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Possibly an empty post here, but I honestly could not give two shits about the gender and/or sexuality of game x/y/z's main/secondary character. If they're interestingly written and designed, then it's all good. Probably should throw in the good ole' disclaimer that I'm not against female leads - because some people are idiots - but I'm starting to get rather sick of the whole "has to be female lead because WAAAAAAAAH DIVERSITY YOU SEXIST!!!" How's about a gay male lead at some point in time eh? Or, in LGBT terms, are we confined to just making one out of a certain number of female characters be lesbians now and leave it at that? Again, nothing against differing sexualities, i just find it all...meh. Take it or leave it; neither love it nor loathe it.

Of course, if people then have a massive fit over a certain character's gender/sexuality...JUST BECAUSE...without any base of argument...then yes, I love that. I love laughing at people's senseless anger.
 

Eolz

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Was going to say the OP was nice and that it was indeed pretty cool, hoping that there was already a good discussion about it, but I see that the first page already switched the topic to their outfits and how the games can't be enjoyed as long as they're this way.
That's a shame. Until the next thread I guess, to see this happen again as usual.
 

Gooch: The Destroyer

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Was going to say the OP was nice and that it was indeed pretty cool, hoping that there was already a good discussion about it, but I see that the first page already switched the topic to their outfits and how the games can't be enjoyed as long as they're this way.
That's a shame. Until the next thread I guess, to see this happen again as usual.
It always takes one...
 

Crossing Eden

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Fantasy and videogames don't need to be realistic, they just need to be tonally consistent. You are not playing Mount & Blade: Warband, you are playing cavemen vs mecha dinosaurs. What the heck is immersion breaking about that outfit exactly in this kind of setting?
What's tonally consistent about a character forgetting to use her brain again>
 

Nya

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I can't believe some people are blowing Aloy's outfit out of proportion, it isn't even sexy lmao
 

Humdinger

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I am not going to be totally naive and say there aren't some valid issues with how women have been (or not at all as the case may be) depicted in video games...

On the other hand "Oh My God!!! They made her too attractive for men." is really difficult to get worked up over. Since when is being attractive a negative...?
I don't think people are upset that a particular character is attractive. I think they're upset that the character is sexually objectified (used merely as a way to titillate the male audience).

As part of that male audience, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I get it -- women have been objectified both in society and in videogames for as long as I can remember. That stinks.

On the other hand, there has to be some leeway for making characters attractive and even sexy (we are sexual beings, after all). Visual beauty is part of why I play games. Visually attractive and even sexy female characters is part of the beauty, part of the appeal. I don't see anything wrong with that.
 

Platy

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You will probably notice the sea of "Dad Simulators" in gaming toward that end as well, and the thematics very much being things targeting older male audiences.

Dishonored 2 and The Last of Us might actually be some of the best examples of both, with Emily and Ellie fitting the younger emerging female audience, while Corvo and Joel target the aging male audience.
Like I said before, Dad simulators are awesome because at one point we will be playing with their daughters xD
 

Laiza

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What's tonally consistent about a character forgetting to use her brain again?
I think that's exactly the problem. The folks who are okay with this sort of thing are the kinds of people who turn off their brain to consume whatever media they consume. They don't care to put even the slightest inkling of thought into the way the character they're playing would think, and so they don't even question it when the choice of clothing is completely inconsistent with the characterization.

I think a lot of this boils down to a lack of reading. People just don't read enough books. They don't get into other people's heads, so the concept is foreign to them. It's a problem on a very fundamental level.

Which is why I've not really taken to arguing with folks over it lately. It's a more deep-seated issue than any argument I can produce will help them get over. All I can do is suggest that people read more books. Preferably books with protagonists that are unlike themselves.
 

Morrigan Stark

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Crossing Eden

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No, I use "it's just a video game" to excuse just about anything, including everything you mentioned.

I explicitly don't WANT logic in all aspects of my games.
"It's a video game" really discredits the amount of artistry that much go in a game. Or any artistic product really.
Laughing because you apparently think fighting robodinos with a bow and arrow is more logical than midriff.
The bow makes more sense in context.
 

Phil Fish

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GRavity RUSH 2 January
H: ZD February
Nier: A March

All of these games come out in 2017! And in consecutive months( Jan, Feb, March)!


...I'm joking. What I wanted to say is that I am liking how developers seem to be more comfortable with having female leads. It isn't like this hasn't happened before, but back to back like that? Coincidence? Most likely. But I think it is a testament to how times have changed, even if ever so slight.

I mean, they are all badass (from what I've seen so far) and incredibly unique in design. Oh, and it also helps that the gameplay looks great as well. For those of you who have played the demo for 2/3 of these games, I think you would agree that the gameplay IS good. Am I right? I am fully immersed whenever I do a playthrough of those demos.

I'm rambling a bit, but I just wanted t7o say how happy I am that these types of creative (and risky) games are coming out.
2B is the best kind of female lead :')
 

BocoDragon

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I never really believed the "we only cast male heroes because $$$" was anything more than a temporary moment in time.

Anyone remember the OG Tomb Raider and have every game after starred a Lara clone?
 

Salty Rice

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I really like this trend. The beginning of 2017 great game after another.

Hope Microsoft continues the trend next year with female Halo Soldier and female Forza car.
 

Zaventem

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I dunno i feel like japan was never afraid to feature leading women, it the western world that has a harder time accepting it, but yeah it's pretty great. Best part is i haven't seen any objections to these decisions.
 

Platy

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I think that's exactly the problem. The folks who are okay with this sort of thing are the kinds of people who turn off their brain to consume whatever media they consume. They don't care to put even the slightest inkling of thought into the way the character they're playing would think, and so they don't even question it when the choice of clothing is completely inconsistent with the characterization.
Choice of clothing based on what sells instead of what makes sense can totaly break a character for me.

A good example is SF5. If Capcom puts Sakura AGAIN with a schoolgirl outfit the character is dead to me. Sorry, I like the character because she was a cool fun who cares more about fighting than anything else., not a 35 year old who still dresses like a schoolgirl. That is creepy and goes against everything the character acts like. At this point she needs actual fighting gear !
 

Hektor

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I think that's exactly the problem. The folks who are okay with this sort of thing are the kinds of people who turn off their brain to consume whatever media they consume. They don't care to put even the slightest inkling of thought into the way the character they're playing would think, and so they don't even question it when the choice of clothing is completely inconsistent with the characterization.

I think a lot of this boils down to a lack of reading. People just don't read enough books. They don't get into other people's heads, so the concept is foreign to them. It's a problem on a very fundamental level.

Which is why I've not really taken to arguing with folks over it lately. It's a more deep-seated issue than any argument I can produce will help them get over. All I can do is suggest that people read more books. Preferably books with protagonists that are unlike themselves.
The people arguing that the unbelievability of a certain outfit in the context of its setting is a nonsensical argument to bring when said setting is inherently illogical to begin with are obviously just too dumb for smart people like you.

This isn't tolstoy, this is a freakin' pulp-fiction novel.
 

Crossing Eden

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Horizon is very aggressively targeted at the audience of teenage girls and young women who are getting into gaming en masse.

It's about a beautiful post apocalyptic setting. it has a very Young Adult Literature plotline. It's rated T. It stars a young woman going out and confronting the greater world around her as she faces rejection at home. The weaponry focuses around outdoorsy tools. Most of the enemies are robots so you wouldn't feel bad about mauling animals to death.

The entire thing is built in the same mold as The Hunger Games, The 100, or Divergent.

I honestly don't think her clothing is put in there to sex up the game, but to give it a modern trendy aesthetic while maintaining the setting of the game.

There are a lot of games aiming toward this these days, and you can see it just looking through the examples listed in the thread.

You actually saw this a lot in the PS1 and PS2 era in regards to games starring guys. We can even just look at something like GTA 3 featuring an up and coming gangster trying to get into the world of crime. Similarly, a lot of the other leading games were about animals with attitude (who were generally teenage dudes) and JRPG dudes trying to save the world while all these stupid adults did nothing.

Now that the male audience is a lot older, GTA V was an ensemble cast of a middle aged guy with a pretty old family going through a midlife crisis, a nearly middle aged guy who had rejected the expectations society placed on him, and a somewhat younger guy getting into crime, but at an older age than you might otherwise expect. You will probably notice the sea of "Dad Simulators" in gaming toward that end as well, and the thematics very much being things targeting older male audiences.

Dishonored 2 and The Last of Us might actually be some of the best examples of both, with Emily and Ellie fitting the younger emerging female audience, while Corvo and Joel target the aging male audience.

But yeah, in general, while it's true that a lot of midriff type outfits are targeted at getting more dudes to play a game, I don't think that's actually the objective of this product.
Ofc it's not the objective but it's pretty offputting, because it's like damn, even Guerilla can't do a game without this kinda inconsistent nonsense?
 

Taruranto

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What's tonally consistent about a character forgetting to use her brain again>
If she's so smart why doesn't she reverse engineer the dinosaurs to build a mecha?

I think that's exactly the problem. The folks who are okay with this sort of thing are the kinds of people who turn off their brain to consume whatever media they consume. They don't care to put even the slightest inkling of thought into the way the character they're playing would think, and so they don't even question it when the choice of clothing is completely inconsistent with the characterization.

I think a lot of this boils down to a lack of reading. People just don't read enough books. They don't get into other people's heads, so the concept is foreign to them. It's a problem on a very fundamental level.

Which is why I've not really taken to arguing with folks over it lately. It's a more deep-seated issue than any argument I can produce will help them get over. All I can do is suggest that people read more books. Preferably books with protagonists that are unlike themselves.
The best thing about this point it's the last thing I read was Fata Morgana. Those who played it know what I'm talking about.
Stealth Read Fata Morgana post.

Also wut. Wanna try some more generalization in there? Maybe we are GG or something?
 

sonicmj1

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It's actually a good summary of all the absurd arguments people use to defend sexist designs.
Bingo cards like that are just reductive ways to laugh at things you want to dismiss. They never actually improve a conversation.

I mean, I get the impulse. Rebutting bullshit is tiring. But, like, those aren't supposed to convince anyone, right? An uncharitable person could make an "SJW Complaints Bingo Card" with spaces like, "I need realism in my magic space adventure" or "You're being disrespectful to this collection of pixels" or "Developers should make the story I want instead of what they want to do," and it would be just as shitty.

People talk past each other enough in these threads as it is.
 

Laiza

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The people arguing that the unbelievability of a certain outfit in the context of its setting is a nonsensical argument to bring when said setting is inherently illogical to begin with are obviously just too dumb for smart people like you.

This isn't tolstoy, this is a freakin' pulp-fiction novel.
I'm not even discussing that game in particular. I'm (rather obviously) speaking in generalizations regarding the kinds of justifications I always see people trot out to defend all kinds of out-of-character outfit choices (in games and elsewhere).

Whether the setting is outrageously fictional or not is completely immaterial to me. Characterization works the same way either way. If someone is apt to dress in a functional and practical manner, then they should do so. I'm fine with the vice-versa scenario as well, provided that it's not... y'know... totally sexist in practice.

Basically, there are two layers to this. One is whether or not the characterization is consistent with the way a character is presented. Another is whether or not either the characterization OR the presentation are obviously skewed towards one sex or the other. They can both be issues independent of one another. There are still a lot of examples of games over-emphasizing female sex appeal at the expense of characterization, and doing so in a manner that is very obviously predicated on straight-male viewership.

Whether or not THIS PARTICULAR EXAMPLE is one of them is not what I am discussing, and I am not interested in discussing it. I haven't played the game or seen more than a couple videos of it. I think Nirolak very well summed up my thoughts on that matter specifically. I'm far more interested in the bigger picture.
The best thing about this point it's the last thing I read was Fata Morgana. Those who played it know what I'm talking about.
Stealth Read Fata Morgana post.

Also wut. Wanna try some more generalization in there? Maybe we are GG or something?
If it doesn't apply to you, then congratulations, you're not a part of the group I'm talking about. Is that so difficult to understand? Cut out the persecution complex already. It's really not conducive to a conversation if you're going to take things so personally.
 

phoenix296

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Horizon is very aggressively targeted at the audience of teenage girls and young women who are getting into gaming en masse.

It's about a beautiful post apocalyptic setting. it has a very Young Adult Literature plotline. It's rated T. It stars a young woman going out and confronting the greater world around her as she faces rejection at home. The weaponry focuses around outdoorsy tools. Most of the enemies are robots so you wouldn't feel bad about mauling animals to death.

The entire thing is built in the same mold as The Hunger Games, The 100, or Divergent.

I honestly don't think her clothing is put in there to sex up the game, but to give it a modern trendy aesthetic while maintaining the setting of the game.

There are a lot of games aiming toward this these days, and you can see it just looking through the examples listed in the thread.

You actually saw this a lot in the PS1 and PS2 era in regards to games starring guys. We can even just look at something like GTA 3 featuring an up and coming gangster trying to get into the world of crime. Similarly, a lot of the other leading games were about animals with attitude (who were generally teenage dudes) and JRPG dudes trying to save the world while all these stupid adults did nothing.

Now that the male audience is a lot older, GTA V was an ensemble cast of a middle aged guy with a pretty old family going through a midlife crisis, a nearly middle aged guy who had rejected the expectations society placed on him, and a somewhat younger guy getting into crime, but at an older age than you might otherwise expect. You will probably notice the sea of "Dad Simulators" in gaming toward that end as well, and the thematics very much being things targeting older male audiences.

Dishonored 2 and The Last of Us might actually be some of the best examples of both, with Emily and Ellie fitting the younger emerging female audience, while Corvo and Joel target the aging male audience.

But yeah, in general, while it's true that a lot of midriff type outfits are targeted at getting more dudes to play a game, I don't think that's actually the objective of this product.
Is this necessarily the case for Horizon? If they're targeting the teenage girl demographic a midriff outfit doesn't seem that out of place. It's pretty common in teen's fashion.
 

Taruranto

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If it doesn't apply to you, then congratulations, you're not a part of the group I'm talking about. Is that so difficult to understand? Cut out the persecution complex already. It's really not conducive to a conversation if you're going to take things so personally.
It's also not very productive to come into a thread to make generalization about people you are arguing (Read more books lol) with and resorting to ad hominem, but OK?

Also you quoted a post that was referring to me so
 

Sub Boss

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While I feel that's true to an extent, I'd point to Japan as a counter example, where you have seas of 50+ year olds making games about teenage boys, because that's what the market still primarily is.
Japan has been on the decline for years, plus many popular series (Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing) have wider appeal than specific teenage boys.
And you could say many Western AAA games are made to appeal to a young crowd too, just with exaggerated violence and guns.
 

Vex_

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Was going to say the OP was nice and that it was indeed pretty cool, hoping that there was already a good discussion about it, but I see that the first page already switched the topic to their outfits and how the games can't be enjoyed as long as they're this way.
That's a shame. Until the next thread I guess, to see this happen again as usual.

:(
 
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