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[FSLink]

The finals tonight were cheese as fuck, in my opinion of course. Lucario barely did anything except charge aura spheres and throw a few attacks out.

It's called a neutral game. Tsu had an incredible one. If it's boring to you, whatever, but I have a feeling you don't understand the game very well if you're simplifying it to just charging aura spheres and tossing out attacks.

Smash 4 is comprised of hit and runs, and few multi-hit combos (note: "true" combos, not these "combos" that aren't actual combos in the definition of the word "combo" -- it still irks me that "combos" have been changed to mean "chained hits and reads" instead of being "true" combos by default). There's such a reliance on defense and shielding that it can be painful to play against those who understand aggressive play doesn't win championships. When defense is so strong, it makes the gameplay stale imo.

Yeah, this is one thing that makes the game kinda different with the inconsistent combos thanks to the rage mechanic.

There really isn't much defensive play in Smash 4 lately, most top players are pretty damn aggressive, and there aren't very many zoners. The thing that makes people live forever is likely the large blast zones + ledge game not being as punishing as previous games.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

It's called a neutral game. Tsu had an incredible one. If it's boring to you, whatever, but I have a feeling you don't understand the game very well if you're simplifying it to just charging aura spheres and tossing out attacks.

Your feeling is wrong. Very wrong.

It's simply a matter of taste.

EDIT:

Yeah, this is one thing that makes the game kinda different with the inconsistent combos thanks to the rage mechanic.

There really isn't much defensive play in Smash 4 lately, most top players are pretty damn aggressive, and there aren't very many zoners. The thing that makes people live forever is likely the large blast zones + ledge game not being as punishing as previous games.

Yeah, the details are in the design changes, like the ledge mechanics not being as punishing (ie: auto ledge snap). Also, you can't knock shielded opponents off ledges anymore, which I think is a major step back. Lots of poking.

While top players may be aggressive in the sense that they're not just literally sitting back, there's still a big difference between Smash 4's aggression vs 64, Melee or PM.

 

[RampagingSoul]

There are some that think SSB Wii U sucks, but I'm not one of them. Personally, it's my favorite with Melee next up. More single player specific content would have been great, but I liked playing it by myself, online and local. The original game was great as my first experience with Smash, but it's not the best far as content goes and character roster is not that great. Melee was a step up in every way. Brawl was a disappointment, but I liked some of the new characters like Snake and some of the Subspace Emissary was great fun and the cut scenes were enjoyable for that. I wouldn't really go back to Brawl, but I won't bash it as much as some people have.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

No, but I REALLY miss the Subspace Emissary mode from Brawl.

 

[Nickle]

The finals tonight were cheese as fuck, in my opinion of course. Lucario barely did anything except charge aura spheres and throw a few attacks out. Cheap, powerful gimmicks are lame.

Smash 4 is comprised of hit and runs, and few multi-hit combos (note: "true" combos, not these "combos" that aren't actual combos in the definition of the word "combo" -- it still irks me that "combos" have been changed to mean "chained hits and reads" instead of being "true" combos by default). There's such a reliance on defense and shielding that it can be painful to play against those who understand aggressive play doesn't win championships. When defense is so strong, it makes the gameplay stale imo.

Tsu had immaculate spacing and did whatever he could to get an opening on Zero. You are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to even get a few hits in against someone like Zero, especially when you main a mid tier character.

 

[FSLink]

Your feeling is wrong. Very wrong.

It's simply a matter of taste.

Fair enough, but you also have to keep in mind Zero's aggressive game in sealing the stock made it harder for Lucario to just run in. If that's not your taste, so be it, but I find it awesome. Also I only said I had a feeling you're wrong because I don't think many people talk about the defensive play being composed of defense and shielding since reliance on shielding doesn't work very well anymore in the meta thanks to patches. It just sounds like an outdated opinion to me as someone who plays in tourneys.

Tsu had immaculate spacing and did whatever he could to get an opening on Zero. You are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to even get a few hits in against someone like Zero, especially when you main a mid tier character.

Yup. Especially against a character with as many kill options as Diddy has.

 

[1upsuper]

That's all I wanted. You Neogaffers just love a chance to shit talk dont you?

Is that not literally what you did in creating this thread?

As for myself, I can't agree that 4 sucks. I'd put Smash 4 in my bottom two Smash games, but it's leaps and bounds better than Brawl for me. I like Melee just a tad more than 4, and Smash 64 is still by far my favorite to play, but I still play 4 a ton with friends.

 

[LOLDSFAN]

Yes.

The 3DS version was slightly better.

The extra modes in the Wii U version do not interest me at all.

Also from a competitive standpoint, (it's gotten better but) it's very slow. 2 stocks vs 4 in Melee. Whoever gets the first stocks has a major advantage.

I'd really like a streamline/focused SSB5 (less characters, faster, and better modes) instead of a SSB4 port for Switch.

YES!

And I'm like the biggest fan of 64 and Melee, but while Brawl was a disappointment, Smash 4 (on both systems) was just a HUGE downgrade for me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sakurai is someone who's given way too much freedom, where he just tries to shove in everything including the kitchen sink, regardless if it's well thought out and top-quality or not. Then there's the awful long development times when Melee was 13 months (I know how that affected Sakurai, I wouldn't want that to happen to him again).

Melee had a harsh deadline as said, but they made sure that EVERY aspect of it was an utter joy. It wasn't perfect, but everything just took what was awesome in 64, made it better, and added cool new stuff in it also.

Smash 4 didn't even have much of a major adventure mode at all. Smash Tour was horrendous and even with that so called tutorial, I couldn't understand it at all. The visuals, despite being 1080p and 60fps on Wii U were pretty bad IMO, I mean what were they thinking with characters like DK for instance?

Trophies were really lazy when so many of them are practically Wii-grade models (and often mere rips at that) when in Melee, a huge chunk of them were very high-poly and felt like they were showcases of what the hardware could do at the time.

Classic mini-games like Break the Targets were completely changed (into Angry Birds? What?), there's still the missing Race to the Finish and Board the Platform mini-games from earlier entries.

Music, like Brawl, and so overdone where it's like 50% reused tracks and the rest is composed by like a dozen composers. When the 4 from HAL in Melee utterly blows them all out of the water to me. I cannot believe that Brawl had 41 composers and was still inferior to Melee's soundtrack IMO.

This is why I really hope Smash 4 does not get a Switch port and they just jump straight into 5 and go all-out in terms of pushing the system (Unreal 4 would be a great fit as BN already use it), I remember playing Soul Calibur 2 on GC and wanting Smash 3 to emulate that look, well what a coincidence! Do that with Smash 5 BN!

I know a lot love Smash 4, but man did I not like it, I mean it's DECENT, but that's the most I can say honestly.

I also just really miss HAL being in the series.

Good points.

 

[FlaygletheBagel]

A lack of single player content, some undercooked modes, and pricey DLC are the main negative attributes I can think of in Smash Wii U. Everything gameplay wise was damn near perfect though.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

No, but I REALLY miss the Subspace Emissary mode from Brawl.

This is another thing that needs to return in some shape or form. Smash needs an adventure mode again.

Tsu had immaculate spacing and did whatever he could to get an opening on Zero. You are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to even get a few hits in against someone like Zero, especially when you main a mid tier character.

Yup. Especially against a character with as many kill options as Diddy has.

These are good points, but it's just how every match feels. Not trying to dismiss the difficulty in match-ups and how they need to be played, but that also goes towards my point.

If there was landing lag cancels, for example, Lucario could have more options on how to approach ZeRo's Diddy. However, with how Smash 4 is designed, only the most optimal play makes sense in every match-up, leaving little room for creativity.

 

[LegendX48]

Nah. Gameplay is best in series. Everything surrounding it feels very half-hearted and half-assed though such as the new renditions of the Smash Bros. series music being complete shit for example.That and some great stages are exclusive to the 3DS version which is a damn shame.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Do people consider dash dancing to be a bug? the lack of this and other spacing/movement options are probably the main thing that stops me from loading up sm4sh (and the other games) more often.

The spacing and mindgame elements just seem so, i dunno, limited?
like you can barely trick people to recover high since theres like the magnet effect on edge recoveries so you dont need to sweet spot it (as in time the recovery so you grab at the maximum distance). I dont think you even need to be facing the edge to grab it?

I also think its kind of lame that their answer for "competitive smash bros" was to just have variations of Final Destination and not something like Battlefield

 

[dlauv]

It's a really good party game; but, aside from the wealth of tertiary features and game modes, the combat hasn't been as fun as Melee's, even as a casual party game. So, the franchise has gotten stale for me.

 

[Dimmle]

It's the best Smash since Melee. Second best in the series, IMO. So, no.

 

[FSLink]

This is another thing that needs to return in some shape or form. Smash needs an adventure mode again.


These are good points, but it's just how every match feels. Not trying to dismiss the difficulty in match-ups and how they need to be played, but that also goes towards my point.

If there was landing lag cancels, for example, Lucario could have more options on how to approach ZeRo's Diddy. However, with how Smash 4 is designed, only the most optimal play makes sense in every match-up, leaving little room for creativity.

Yeah I agree that the "tech" skill ceiling in Smash 4 has gotten neutered a bit so there's less creativity overall. It's why some Smash 4 pros even prefer Brawl despite the balance issues of that game. Sure, Metaknight and Snake and Icies were stupid, but they were fun and had a lot of depth.

But at the same time I kinda appreciate the game making it more accessible and there's still some characters with a lot of depth, and some that don't if you aren't a technical player.

The spacing and mindgame elements just seem so, i dunno, limited?
like you can barely trick people to recover high since theres like the magnet effect on edge recoveries so you dont need to sweet spot it (as in time the recovery so you grab at the maximum distance). I dont think you even need to be facing the edge to grab it?

I also think its kind of lame that their answer for "competitive smash bros" was to just have variations of Final Destination and not something like Battlefield

You can hit people from grabbing the ledge if you time it right (2 frame window if they don't recover like extremely vertical). You can also ledge trump (grab the edge while the opponent is on it) to push them off which has a lot of interesting mind games of itself. The mindgame element is there, but it's not as punishing for the person trying to get back on, which is why I'm not completely happy with what they did here. Maybe shorten the distance of some characters' recoveries if they repeatedly can't get back onto the stage.

 

[yyr]

I'll be honest, I didn't love it. There seemed to be a lot less single-player content, and it still felt slow compared to Melee. Once the DLC came out and was prohibitively expensive, I sold my copy.

Not saying it's a bad game, but I guess maybe I'm just bored of the formula by now?

 

[Forkball]

Best Smash. I do think the 3DS overall has better stages and Smash Run is something I would like to see included in the console version as well. That mode was surprisingly fun.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

You can hit people from grabbing the ledge if you time it right (2 frame window if they don't recover like extremely vertical). You can also ledge trump (grab the edge while the opponent is on it) to push them off which has a lot of interesting mind games of itself. The mindgame element is there, but it's not as punishing for the person trying to get back on, which is why I'm not completely happy with what they did here.

yes, i know these things and how they work, its just not a good tradeoff imo. I think the most fun I had was using Greninjas upB to force ledge trumps

 

[Snakeyes]

It's pretty boring compared to 64 or Melee. Exchanges reset to neutral too often, and infinite airdodges coupled with ridiculous recoveries for most of the cast means there's less of the tension that made those previous two games so good.

 

[Novocaine]

No. It's the best because of Villager and Mega Man.

 

[FSLink]

yes, i know these things and how they work, its just not a good tradeoff imo. I think the most fun I had was using Greninjas upB to force ledge trumps

Yeah, maybe they should make the 2 frame window easier to hit, or remove magnet hands from all but the first recovery. I'm not sure if they should go back to ledge hogging since it looks weird as a spectator, and harder to initially understand as a player, but they need to tweak ledge trumping to be more punishing for the person recovering.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Yeah, maybe they should make the 2 frame window easier to hit, or remove magnet hands from all but the first recovery. I'm not sure if they should go back to ledge hogging since it looks weird as a spectator, and harder to initially understand as a player, but they need to tweak ledge trumping to be more punishing for the person recovering.

competitive smash in general looks weird to a spectator!

How does holding the edge to stop someone grabbing it make less visual sense to the layman than making them jump backwards away?

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

No... it's amazing. It just lacks characters that are important.

 

[Yukinari]

It's pretty boring compared to 64 or Melee. Exchanges reset to neutral too often, and infinite airdodges coupled with ridiculous recoveries for most of the cast means there's less of the tension that made those previous two games so good.

Yeah its really obnoxious that a majority of the cast has amazing recovery ability with ledges magnetizing to your hands.

 

[FSLink]

competitive smash in general looks weird to a spectator!

How does holding the edge to stop someone grabbing it make less visual sense to the layman than making them jump backwards away?

I guess if you put it that way lol

Yeah its really obnoxious that a majority of the cast has amazing recovery ability with ledges magnetizing to your hands.

Yeah. Fighting Cloud or Mac are some of my favorite matchups in Smash 4 because their recovery isn't so free.

 

[chaosblade]

Do people consider dash dancing to be a bug? the lack of this and other spacing/movement options are probably the main thing that stops me from loading up sm4sh (and the other games) more often.

The spacing and mindgame elements just seem so, i dunno, limited?
like you can barely trick people to recover high since theres like the magnet effect on edge recoveries so you dont need to sweet spot it (as in time the recovery so you grab at the maximum distance). I dont think you even need to be facing the edge to grab it?

I also think its kind of lame that their answer for "competitive smash bros" was to just have variations of Final Destination and not something like Battlefield

It's a little janky, but I wouldn't consider it a bug since dashing and running were deliberately programmed to work the way they do. And I agree that movement feels weird without it.

About the same with wavedashing, all the components that make it up were specifically programmed to work the way they do. As a technique it may not have been intentional but functionally the game is working exactly as intended.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Yeah its really obnoxious that a majority of the cast has amazing recovery ability with ledges magnetizing to your hands.

Yup, I'm all for characters having good recoveries (RIP 64 Link), but the auto ledge snap is something I hope they change. People brought up dash dancing too, another change at the top of my list.

Even for casual play, Smash 4 leaves a lot to be desired. I know a bunch of casual players who just enjoy the characters and fun gameplay of Smash, but prefer 64 due to its simplicity in design. And just because it's more simple/accessible than later games does not mean it lacks depth, which 64 has in strides.

 

[JulianImp]

Smash 4 is an amazing game for playing with lots of friends, and I've enjoyed it playing it in a semi-serious manner for quite a while. The netcode was also a lot better than Brawl's, so I got the chance to enjoy playing online instead of being stuck in generic item-fests (also, playing co-op online was pretty cool). The 3DS version also rocked since I finally got to Smash on the go, and Smash Run was fun for a while.

Something I didn't like that other people already talked about in the thread was the boring For Glory mode, since it looked like the developers took the "No items. Fox only, Final Destination" meme to heart or something, while FD-type stages aren't actually neutral at all.

I won't really compare it to other Smash games competitive-wise because I don't know all that much about the scene, but personally I'd rate the games with Smash 4 as my favorite, then Melee, 64 (mostly for the good memories) and finally Brawl.

 

[woopWOOP]

Smash 4 is the best one yet
Online that actually works and patches that fix the balance somewhat
New stage editor is actually better than Brawl's and the customisable Mii Fighters are great

3DS version has the better stages tho, which is too bad because I rather play on the big screen.
Smash Tour and Smash Run are just alright, could've been way better with a couple of tweaks

 

[elshoelace]

Has Greninja, therefore greatest smash

 

[IntelliHeath]

I'll tell you what, if the Switch version doesn't allow for players to party up with online friends to play against other people through matchmaking, then they haven't learned much. It's pretty damn crazy how this isn't possible.

That's actually one of few issues I had with the game. Also I was surprised that Sakurai and the team got rid of three players for online plays.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Doesn't suck but it's not my cup of tea.

 

[trixx]

The game is good. So many great characters you can main. Lucario main almost beat zero

 

[Kiddy Dong]

I do, honestly. After the novelty of the new roster additions wore off, it just seemed like a major RNG-fest, more so than any previous Smash. The singleplayer is an absolute grind if you want to collect all the trophies/moves/challenges/etc, and the multiplayer is bogged down by obnoxious stage hazards and items. Something about this game felt very Skinner box-esque which was a turnoff for me.

Project M might not hold a candle to 4's roster and graphics, but overall I'd say it's the better crafted game when all is said and done.

 

[tapedeck]

Nah OP, for me it's..Melee>Smash4>>Smash 64>>>>>>>>Brawl

 

[GiantBreadbug]

The game is good. So many great characters you can main. Lucario main almost beat zero

Yeah the fact that so many characters can pull off cool shit is what makes it for me. Watching people play this game is so much fun (as is playing).

 

[Neoxon]

Nah OP, for me it's..Melee>Smash4>>Smash 64>>>>>>>>Brawl

This

 

[Twilight Gap]

The 3DS version is boring as fuck and I think the roster is bloated

 

[Vinc]

It still doesn't feel quite right to me. Melee felt much better to control. I was also bummed by the lack of adventure mode. But it's still a super fun party game and I like it more than Brawl overall.

 

[Neoxon]

A lack of single player content, some undercooked modes, and pricey DLC are the main negative attributes I can think of in Smash Wii U. Everything gameplay wise was damn near perfect though.

As mentioned earlier, the pricing of Smash 4's DLC (or at least the characters & stages) is perfectly fair when you factor in both the work that goes into said DLC as well as the pricing of characters & stages for other fighting games.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I'd pay $100+ bucks for Snake DLC

 

[jacobeid]

If Smash Wii u sucks then 95+% of the games released today are complete fucking trash. Come on, OP.

 

[Geno Breaker]

I'd pay $100+ bucks for Snake DLC

lol how many Smash threads have you posted in where the majority of what you said mentioned Snake?

 

[Jawbreaker]

I don't think it sucks; it's obviously a quality game. That being said, I wasn't able to get much enjoyment out of it. Smash Bros. peaked for me with Melee.

 

[Rapscallion]

It's an amazing game. Simple as that.
They made some poor decisions with it: exclusive levels between versions, no story mode, not offering people to form teams online, etc., but overall it's a fantastic game.

 

[Jawmuncher]

lol how many Smash threads have you posted in where the majority of what you said mentioned Snake?

The better question is how many have I hadn't.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Gameplay wise 64 and melee are my favourites with 64 slightly taking the edge. With how I play the game nowadays though content is king for me so I love smash 4. I do think it's stage line up is lacking badly and I would like to see a change to the gameplay but overall I loved it.

 

[Blizzard]

It's my favorite Smash game ever, and I especially appreciated tripping being removed. One of the few downsides for me is Snake being missing.

Otherwise, the attention to detail, the characters, the music, and the levels are pretty good.

 

[Taxman]

It's by far my favorite smash game. Online means I have something to do at 2AM. Also, it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever seen. So many characters and so many of them are not trash. It's like every tournament you see a new character holding its own and making top 8.

 

[Yukinari]

Shortening the DK Rap and removing Warrio's shoulder bash attack are criminal by the way.