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[BocoDragon]

Religious concepts (God, Heaven, etc) are only comforting to those who were raised with religious concepts. They're only "sad/distressing" to lose for those who were raised with them.

To those who were not raised with these concepts... they're actually quite creepy!

It's not universally comforting to believe these things. It's just comforting to believe the things one was raised with.

 

[Divvy]

That's called a cult of personality right?

Yes. The dogma they instituted was no different than the ones they abolished.

 

[Monocle]

Here, take these similarly broad questions: Do you think Asian people are good listeners? Do you think gay people recycle? Do you think food is healthy?

Religious concepts (God, Heaven, etc) are only comforting to those who were raised with religious concepts. They're only "sad/distressing" to lose for those who were raised with them.

To those who were not raised with these concepts... they're actually quite creepy!

It's not universally comforting to believe these things. It's just comforting to believe the things one was raised with.

How do you know what religious concepts mean to those different groups of people?

 

[plasticpassion]

Well, I'm talking about myself..

Also, am I the only one who (even back when I still believed) is creeped out by Heaven?
I also preferred to go to Hell cause it seemed you get to keep your humanity rather than "become one with God" or other versions where you live all happy and lose tons of emotions that we identify as human..

I always thought it would be strange, going to heaven to praise god all the time. I remember thinking as a kid I hoped i could bring my Sega Genesis and Mortal Kombat so I wouldn't be bored. Lol

 

[krypt0nian]

Blame Constantine. He fucked the world.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

Anyone think religious people have had a negative impact on the world?

Also, just because it was nice to believe in the fairy tale, it doesn't make it any more true. Life's better without it. You're free to make your own purpose. And furthermore, because it isn't true, it doesn't make the lack of religion inherently negative.

We all have to (should) grow up one day.

Is it really better? I've been thinking all day about beliefs. I've come to the realization that you can be happy without anything...without ever having a family or any material possessions. You can just become a monk and live the rest of your life in a temple and be happy for the rest of your life. But that kind of life seems really boring, though, I know I could be happy in that life.

But then I thought to myself, well, I do love women and I thought living the rest of my life just trying to mate with women would probably be more interesting and fun. It would give me motivation to better myself and level up which is cool I guess. But I know that I could live the rest of my life in my parent's basement and work at Burger King and be happy.

But when it comes down to it, I feel like you can get your mind to believe in anything with enough practice. I could tell myself over and over, again, that there is a God because how the heck does all this stuff exist?! Science has not explained everything in life. They cannot tell us if there are others out there like us that exist. I could tell myself this argument over and over and convince myself that there is a God.

Really, all it comes down to is get busy living or get busy dying (Shawshank Redemption reference lol). You can be happy either way. If I had to choose one option, I would get busy living. So my reason to live is to do cool fukking sh!t, make people go holy sh!t from the cool sh!t I do, mate with a lot of woman and constantly level up in all aspects of life ie physically, intellectually etc. (don't care about financially except stability). Really, just make other people entertained and make life more interesting and fukk what haters think (including the hater side of me, probably my biggest hater, his as$ is locked up). Really, I think that would make an enjoyable life.

 

[Cmagus]

Don't need religion to teach good morals.

Yep, funny as an atheist the only difference between you and me is I don't believe in a god.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I'll agree with that. Maybe bigot is too strong of a word. But I feel like disrespectful is too light of one.

How do you propose one show respect for that which one does not see evidence for?

 

[I_D]

A Google search for "famous bad atheists" gives tons of examples.

It sounds like you're talking about atheism in general, though, particularly the truth that we're not special.
Sometimes the truth hurts, unfortunately.


I find it liberating though. This is your life, so make the most of it. A belief in Heaven would just be full of anticipation, and we already know that anticipation is was better than the real thing.


EDIT:
And yes, it's hard to respect something completely unfounded.
I treat those who preach in the same way I treat kids waiting for Santa.

 

[M.Bluth]

I always thought it would be strange, going to heaven to praise god all the time. I remember thinking as a kid I hoped i could bring my Sega Genesis and Mortal Kombat so I wouldn't be bored. Lol

I remember my mother telling me "You'll get everything you wish for in Heaven" and responding "Where's the fun in that?"

 

[Orayn]

But when it comes down to it, I feel like you can get your mind to believe in anything with enough practice. I could tell myself over and over, again, that there is a God because how the heck does all this stuff exist?! Science has not explained everything in life. They cannot tell us if there are others out there like us that exist. I could tell myself this argument over and over and convince myself that there is a God.

Really, all it comes down to is get busy living or get busy dying (Shawshank Redemption reference lol). You can be happy either way. If I had to choose one option, I would get busy living. So my reason to live is to do cool fukking sh!t, make people go holy sh!t from the cool sh!t I do, mate with a lot of woman and constantly level up in all aspects of life ie physically, intellectually etc. (don't care about financially except stability). Really, just make other people entertained and make life more interesting and fukk what haters think (including the hater side of me, probably my biggest hater, his as$ is locked up). Really, I think that would make an enjoyable life.

Where are you going with this? Yes, there are a number of ways to be happy. Mine happens not to involve supernatural beliefs. I don't think it's a matter of "I do my thing, you do yours." Religious belief has a dark side to it - I mean, hell, there are plenty of happy cult members out there. Should I just be cool with them believing some guy in Utah is God and doing whatever he says?

 

[plasticpassion]

Is it really better? I've been thinking all day about beliefs. I've come to the realization that you can be happy without anything...without ever having a family or any material possessions. You can just become a monk and live the rest of your life in a temple and be happy for the rest of your life. But that kind of life seems really boring, though, I know I could be happy in that life.
...
Really, all it comes down to is get busy living or get busy dying (Shawshank Redemption reference lol). You can be happy either way. If I had to choose one option, I would get busy living. So my reason to live is to do cool fukking sh!t, make people go holy sh!t from the cool sh!t I do, mate with a lot of woman and constantly level up in all aspects of life ie physically, intellectually etc. (don't care about financially except stability). Really, just make other people entertained and make life more interesting and fukk what haters think (including the hater side of me, probably my biggest hater, his as$ is locked up). Really, I think that would make an enjoyable life.

For me, yes. It's the capability to live a life free of constraints and how I want to. It sounds like you're seeking the same thing. I recall first becoming an atheist and breaking free of the chains of Christianity (as in no longer being afraid to not believe because of the threat of hell). It was so liberating as I felt like the curtain or veil had been lifted from my eyes and I could truly see the world for what it is. It was exciting and I've really embraced it. I recommend trying to look at it from a similar perspective and not so much lamenting over what it could be. The reality is that won't do anything for you, it still will be just as untrue and impractical.

 

[Divvy]

This was not the thread I expected it to be; the OP is not talking about atheistic philosophies inspiring war, or violence in a broader sense; he's just saying that atheism is super depressing.

I think it can be, but doesn't have to be inherently. However, I would also say that I'm far more concerned with believing something that is valid or true, even if it happens to be depressing; however, I again acknowledge that this isn't always the case.

In fact, I can make a strong argument that deliberately choosing to live in a more pleasant but admittedly false world view can have tangible benefits not just for yourself, but for the rest of the world.

While I can understand why on an individual basis, living a life based on false, but comforting premises can be better. I still think that when considered on the scale of whole populations, it is a far more negative influence on things like civil rights and public health.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

This assume that...

1. Humans have an inborn belief in a comfortable afterlife.
2. Believing in a comfortable afterlife is a good thing.

I wouldn't take either of those things for granted.

What do you mean?

 

[Lamel]

Yeah I suppose I know what you mean OP.

Not that you need religion to learn good morals as a kid, but it certainly did provide the motivation to be good...something I do miss. However it turned me into a pretty good person (or at least I've been told and like to think).

 

[DonMigs85]

Yep, funny as an atheist the only difference between you and me is I don't believe in a god.

There's also stuff like premarital sex, Halal meat and other mandates in religion.

 

[Lionel Mandrake]

"The chances of finding out what's really going on in the universe are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied … I'd far rather be happy than right any day." -The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Spoiler

Damn, why didn't I include that in the excerpts you love thread?

 

[ghostofsparta]

Do you hold the same feeling about political beliefs? That they are above criticism?

Obviously there is tact. I'm not going to go to a funeral and make a stink when they bring up god. However, I really see no problem with criticizing a religious belief on a forum when a debate involving religion pops up.

I don't know anything about politics :s

I also see no problem debating religion on a forum, but I see threads getting derailed all the time and I'm pretty sick of it. I just wish there was a mega Atheist vs Religion thread and if you debated it anywhere else you get banned for it.

I just feel like any Atheists posting will not get their minds changed by anyone and any religious person defending their beliefs won't be moved either. I think it's pointless. I just want everyone to get along (yeah right, right?).

 

[BocoDragon]

How do you know what religious concepts mean to those different groups of people?

I don't think I implied anything related to the answer of that question.

I meant only that, to those not raised as theists, there's hardly anything distressing about discussing the non-existance of God/Heaven. It's not universal to have atheists be a "party pooper" about the good things in life.

But quite clearly, those who are raised theists find that the atheist line of questioning is either untrue, or a horrible revelation if it is true. Their good feelings are at risk of being ruined, not because the lack of god is universally horrifying, but it is horrifying to those who have raised with the assumption that it is true..

 

[Orayn]

What do you mean?

1. Human may have a tendency to come up with supernatural agents to explain things we don't understand, but this doesn't necessarily mean that we are inclined to believe in a heaven-like afterlife by default. Plenty of religions through human history haven't had anything like that.

2. It's a supernatural belief, meaning it's unproven. I agree that it's a powerful idea, but think about what it could do to a vulnerable individual who hates their current life - Someone who gets hung up on the idea of going to heaven could very well make bad choices because of that.

 

[jaxword]

Anyone who thinks Mao pushed atheism is, unfortunately, ignorant.

He REPLACED religion with himself. So yes, it was atheist in that there's no God, but no, it was not, because he WAS God.

Mao used a Cult of Personality to control the masses, which uses a very similar mentality to religion--one could say it's religion without the supernatural.

Mao is The Leader. He will Save us. He can do anything. You must believe in Mao.

 

[thetechkid]

Santa is fake, too.

Cry more.

THIS IS A JOKE RIGHT?!

 

[Orayn]

I also see no problem debating religion on a forum, but I see threads getting derailed all the time and I'm pretty sick of it. I just wish there was a mega Atheist vs Religion thread and if you debated it anywhere else you get banned for it.

We have one. It's a clusterfuck.

I just feel like any Atheists posting will not get their minds changed by anyone and any religious person defending their beliefs won't be moved either. I think it's pointless. I just want everyone to get along (yeah right, right?).

I used to be a religious person who defended his beliefs, but various sources planted the seed Why's that? Ideally, we're talking about people throwing rational arguments at each other. Just watching and listening to this kind of debate over the years planted the seed of doubt and eventually lead to my "deconversion." For all but the most obstinate zealots, there's no reason to believe that each side is invulnerable to the other's argument.

 

[ruuk]

As a group? Unequivocally no.

 

[Atrus]

Well, I'm talking about myself..

Also, am I the only one who (even back when I still believed) is creeped out by Heaven?
I also preferred to go to Hell cause it seemed you get to keep your humanity rather than "become one with God" or other versions where you live all happy and lose tons of emotions that we identify as human..

I don't really find the afterlife to be a critical issue in Christian or Abrahamic beliefs, it's God. Even if God and Heaven were a 100% certainty, I would still question the ethics and morality it and of those that would place these things on a pedestal.

On the basis that I will die when I cease to exist, I take great pains to ensure that the life I do live is one I can respect. I don't want to say that I went out and needlessly harmed people or that I would sacrifice everything, no matter how unconscionable, just so I can live longer.

I find the character of God to be a being of lesser ethical and moral standards, and that I would disrespect myself for having to kowtow to it for any reason.

I could live with non-existence knowing I stood for something better. I could not imagine living for an eternity with the shame of prostituting myself for ever lasting life. Eternity is a long time with which to endure oneself.

 

[BocoDragon]

Anyone who thinks Mao pushed atheism is, unfortunately, ignorant.

He REPLACED religion with himself. So yes, it was atheist in that there's no God, but no, it was not, because he WAS God.

Mao used a Cult of Personality to control the masses, which uses a very similar mentality to religion--one could say it's religion without the supernatural.

Mao is The Leader. He will Save us. He can do anything. You must believe in Mao.

The way they sent CCP leaders into the villages.. and the villagers learned to quote Mao and use Maoist thinking to organize their society and criticise one another using Maoist morality?

Religion with a capital R!

And that comes not from a general armchair perspective but from an intensive historical study of that era.

I think Mao was atheist, but the way in which his society was run made it, certainly, a new religion.

 

[maomaoIYP]

Bad people will do bad things no matter which god they pray to.

You don't need a religion to be moral.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

This was not the thread I expected it to be. The OP is not talking about atheistic philosophies inspiring war, or violence in a broader sense; he's just saying that atheism is super depressing.

I think it can be, but doesn't have to be inherently. However, I would also say that I'm far more concerned with believing something that is valid or true, even if it happens to be depressing; however, I again acknowledge that this isn't always the case.

In fact, I can make a strong argument that deliberately choosing to live in a more pleasant but admittedly false world view can have tangible benefits not just for yourself, but for the rest of the world.

Yeah, I remember like when people would say "you rot in the ground when you die" and I was still religious and for some reason, that scared the hel! out of me. I couldn't believe it. But because I was always interested in intellectual things and learning how things worked, I was more open to people's arguments and stuff. I used to actually post on the forums at:

http://www.freeratio.org/

lol I didn't know there were a lot of atheists there. I was interested in reading more about philosophy and political issues.

People were always making a big issue over religion on internet forums (I only posted on nerdy video game ones like neogaf lol) and I wanted to see what the big deal was... Those times were tough when I eventually transitioned.

 

[UrokeJoe]

Feed me to the dogs. I am going to heaven.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

My religious beliefs are that after death everyone turns into dragons and the better of a person you are, the more badass of a dragon you are. Most cultures develop religion and most develop dragon stories, it's born into us, we just have connected the dots yet.

 

[Zaptruder]

When you first switch away from religion, what is typical is a feeling of... discontent - for most, religion provides more than just answers of who and what made us and rules for living - it provides community and meaning.

In time - you'll come to develop an understanding and a community that is independent of religion. Not too long into that process, you'll feel that your perception of the world will have surpassed what could've been possible under religion.

To see and understand the true interconnected nature of our world and reality is fairly exhilirating. And it's great that the world is there to reinforce rather than tear down the world view that we develop in our minds.

 

[Alkimia]

My religious beliefs are that after death everyone turns into dragons and the better of a person you are, the more badass of a dragon you are. Most cultures develop religion and most develop dragon stories, it's born into us, we just have connected the dots yet.

I was going to post about something, but nothing else seems important now.

 

[The Technomancer]

As someone else said I can understand how an individual can live a happier life believing in an afterlife or the idea of an omniscient planner, but I don't think that it has good effects on society as a whole. So I'm not going to be too upset if/when hardcore religious beliefs begin to fade.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

Religious concepts (God, Heaven, etc) are only comforting to those who were raised with religious concepts. They're only "sad/distressing" to lose for those who were raised with them.

To those who were not raised with these concepts... they're actually quite creepy!

It's not universally comforting to believe these things. It's just comforting to believe the things one was raised with.

lol wow man how do you know this stuff?!?!?! Are you a psychologist or something? What books do you read/recommend??? Geez, man, you're the only person I remember on neogaf. lol

 

[BocoDragon]

Yeah, I remember like when people would say "you rot in the ground when you die" and I was still religious and for some reason, that scared the hel! out of me. I couldn't believe it.

Interesting. While death is something everyone has to deal with intellectually at some point, for many non-religious people, there's hardly that moment of "that's not true! That's impossible!".

A lot of kids are raised with "you die, that's it, get prepared", and that's actually just fine for them.

I think the real issue is people being raised with "you die, AWESOME STUFF HAPPENS" and it's the chipping away of that obvious lie which can make for depressing times....

lol wow man how do you know this stuff?!?!?! Are you a psychologist or something? What books do you read/recommend??? Geez, man, you're the only person I remember on neogaf. lol

Thanks!.. But it's just "my opinions" and all that. Anything I say is debatable (but then again.... that's true for every human on this planet )

 

[travisbickle]

OP... I think you'd better start reading your guidebook in finer detail. You're not going to get into the exclusive club "heaven" just by being a self-proclaimed good person, you have to excel and complete all the tasks given to you by the man upstairs, moral absolution in the catholic church may be good place to start reading.

 

[scorcho]

the biggest hurdle against atheists is the theist belief that morality can't justifiably exist outside of some religious framework that either rewards or encourages 'good' or normative behavior; that man without religion devolves into some Hobbesian state of anarchy.

i've had more than one argument about this with my sister, who is a born again Christian. i consider myself leaning more towards agnostic than atheist, but overall i don't prescribe to any organized religions. for me, religious texts are nothing more than parables that, like most children's books, try to teach between 'right' and 'wrong' actions. they existed and were necessary in a time when mankind didn't have the scientific means to make sense of the world-at-large.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

1. Human may have a tendency to come up with supernatural agents to explain things we don't understand, but this doesn't necessarily mean that we are inclined to believe in a heaven-like afterlife by default. Plenty of religions through human history haven't had anything like that.

Interesting, can I get a source or something? Are these arguments in that God Delusion book?

 

[jambo]

OP... I think you'd better start reading your guidebook in finer detail. You're not going to get into the exclusive club "heaven" just by being a self-proclaimed good person, you have to excel and complete all the tasks given to you by the man upstairs, moral absolution in the catholic church may be good place to start reading.

Ignorance is bliss it seems.

 

[jaxword]

The way they sent CCP leaders into the villages.. and the villagers learned to quote Mao and use Maoist thinking to organize their society and criticise one another using Maoist morality?

Religion with a capital R!

And that comes not from a general armchair perspective but from an intensive historical study of that era.

I think Mao was atheist, but the way in which his society was run made it, certainly, a new religion.

That's what I was saying. A cult of personality may as well be a religion, just minus the supernatural.

The iconography is an obvious mirror of religious figures.

 

[Divvy]

the biggest hurdle against atheists is the theist belief that morality can't justifiably exist outside of some religious framework that either rewards or encourages 'good' or normative behavior; that man without religion devolves into some Hobbesian state of anarchy.

i've had more than one argument about this with my sister, who is a born again Christian. i consider myself leaning more towards agnostic than atheist, but overall i don't prescribe to any organized religions. for me, religious texts are nothing more than parables that, like most children's books, try to teach between 'right' and 'wrong' actions. they existed and were necessary in a time when mankind didn't have the scientific means to make sense of the world-at-large.

This hurdle is easily jumped when you observe morality in monkeys and apes.

 

[Orayn]

the biggest hurdle against atheists is the theist belief that morality can't justifiably exist outside of some religious framework that either rewards or encourages 'good' or normative behavior; that man without religion devolves into some Hobbesian state of anarchy.

Yeah, this is among the most common accusations I hear as a nonbeliever. Personally, I find it kind of insulting to humanity as a whole. As far as I can tell, most people would not turn into raping, murdering barbarians if they found out there was no afterlife, because most people have a Machiavellian understanding of such things at the very least.

 

[Poimandres]

Religion helps people be good for bad reasons, out of hope for reward or fear of punishment. I think it's much more admirable to do good without these expectations.

Agreed. This doesn't mean religion is always a bad thing. Many religions stress doing good for its own sake, not for some promised reward. But philosophies that use fear of punishment to keep people in line I can never agree with.

Also, the universe is just as remarkable and wonderous without the concept of a higher power.

 

[The Technomancer]

Agreed. This doesn't mean religion is always a bad thing. Many religions stress doing good for its own sake, not for some promised reward. But philosophies that use fear of punishment to keep people in line I can never agree with.

Also, the universe is just as remarkable and wonderous without the concept of a higher power.

IMO far more so. The idea that all of the complexity we see around us is derived from the interactions of simple rules is incredibly beautiful.

 

[scorcho]

Yeah, this is among the most common accusations I hear as a nonbeliever. Personally, I find it kind of insulting to humanity as a whole. As far as I can tell, most people would not turn into raping, murdering barbarians if they found out there was no afterlife, because most people have a Machiavellian understanding of such things at the very least.

i'd argue that there's also an instinctive incentive for man to naturally form into social groups that wouldn't reward overtly selfish or aggressive behavior within its members. in other words, you quickly learn what is right or wrong by studying those around you, and self-destructive behaviors for the group, like murder, are weeded out by necessity.

 

[Count Dookkake]

This hurdle is easily jumped when you observe morality in monkeys and apes.

And immorality in high-ranking holy men.

 

[BocoDragon]

That's what I was saying. A cult of personality may as well be a religion, just minus the supernatural.

The iconography is an obvious mirror of religious figures.

Yup. I think there's little that's different between the way Mao was used to reorganize society and the way, say, Mohommad was used to reorganize society. They were both used as sources of new axiomatic truths about the way people and society should be run.

It hardly resembles atheism as it would be understood in the cafes of Enlightenment France, or for that matter, the forums of NeoGAF. A bunch of cantankerous intellectuals who agree on little else except that many of mankind's favourite ideas are clearly fairytales

 

[speculawyer]

I think there are many Athiests that have had very significant negative impacts on the world. Stalin, Mao, etc.

But that was from their killing, not their being atheists.


I don't think spreading atheism is a negative impact on the world.

 

[IsntChrisL]

I don't know about a negative impact but I can say that I've definitely noticed a negative attitude from a lot of atheists on the net. But that could also be due to the fact that the online world is full of cynicism.

I get what the OP is saying, in a way. I was raised for a good portion of my life as a Christian. And I can definitely say that putting God into the equation influenced a lot of the moral choices I was faced with. Maybe I tied God to my conscience, and therefore, guilt (an un-fun combo). God wasn't the sole reason I would choose to do "the right thing" but there was a definite influence in situations where the worry of disappointing God got the best of me. In a way, that's way too much stress for a child. On the other hand, I often acted outside of my own immediate desires in order to be the better person.

 

[Orayn]

i'd argue that there's also an instinctive incentive for man to naturally form into social groups that wouldn't reward overtly selfish or aggressive behavior within its members. in other words, you quickly learn what is right or wrong by studying those around you, and self-destructive behaviors for the group, like murder, are weeded out by necessity.

Oh, of course. The Machiavellian idea of "If I hurt people, people will want to hurt me." is what I consider the lowest normal level of morality for a sane person. All the community-building aspects follow from that, and extend its basic precepts by rewarding pro-social behavior and cooperation and forming a non-aggression pact that works better for everyone. Learning how to be good really isn't that hard.