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[jim-jam bongs]

The people who say its logical to not believe, how is it logical in any sense? How does me not believing all of a sudden make me a logical person? I believe how I act makes me a logical person. Please stop using "Im atheist because I am logical" it doesn't make you logical at all.

Because lacking concrete proof of an assertion and still choosing to believe it is illogical. If I said to you that I think that Obama is a reptilian plant by the Illuminati, and that I firmly believe this because you can't prove it's not the case either way, don't you think you would find that pretty illogical?

 

[Extollere]

I appreciated life much more once I became an atheist..

+1

Same.

 

[IsntChrisL]

I've noticed the basic fact of life that denying things is inherently more distressful to people than asserting things.

I could talk to people and assert crystal power, homeopathy, and ancient aliens all I want, and people will still perceive me as a positive, happy human being (even if they think I'm wrong and crazy).

But denying what other people assert is ALWAYS a dirty business, because you're essentially denying not only the belief, but the believers. There's always the issue of being perceieved as "attacking others" when denying certain beliefs, and that draws some measure of negative stink or outright hatred when in the process of denying.

The thing with atheism is that you only will see the tip of the iceburg of all people who are truly "lacking theism", because of this imbalance between asserting/denying. Some atheists will keep their mouth shut, to avoid "disrespect". Some don't care who they offend, and will broadcast it without a care. The nature of atheism fosters iconoclasts as their strongest voice, because they don't care who they offend. And some people who generally hold respect will be seen as "disrespectful" anyway, simply by means of asserting their position. The result is a heavily skewed idea of atheists as only the worst kind of intellectual rabble-rousers. The broadcasting of the position favours the most brash individuals, and so it appears that the belief is brash. But it is not so...

Long story short: the very position of atheism tends to foster the idea that atheists are annoying, society-disrupting haters, when it's really a problem of denying other's beliefs which creates a false stereotype. The average atheist may not resemble anyone's stereotype of an athiest.

Good point. This works both ways, actually. A lot of atheists seem to view the religious as crusading, intolerant, hate-mongers. This is for the same reason you described. The loudest are often the biggest dicks of the bunch.

I think it's all been magnified by the anonymity of the internet, however. Anonymity has become a powerful tool for getting people to "let loose" their thoughts a little more freely.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

First Postulate: you have a finite amount of time to consider and understand the world around you.

Second postulate: there is an infinite or near-infinite number of things to understand.

If we accept these two postulates, then it seems reasonable to conclude that one should not attempt to thoroughly understand everything in the universe, as you'll die before you even get done analyzing the stuff inside your house.

Further, it may be simpler, more time efficient, and less emotionally draining to either simplify or contrive an explanation for some things. In other words: you cannot fight all battles in a single lifetime. Ignoring certain battles -- or even pretending those battles don't exist -- can save intellectual and emotional resources, which seem nearly limitless when spread out over the course of a lifetime, but are quite finite when compared to the amount of comprehensible things in the universe.

I accept those two things. The only conclusion I can muster up, right now, is that this question about existence I am asking is not leaving me satisfied and kind of pissing me off...and I shouldn't be feeling this way. I have better things to do. I should be happy like anyone else...we can either be happy or sad and I want to be happy...so the only logical thing to do is ignore this question and not think about it, anymore. Cool. It's a question that has no straight answer. *Goes back to studying math where everything makes sense. (so far lol)*

 

[Arrowgigantic]

My dick is known for making positive impacts and it is atheist, so there you go.

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

Atheists do bad things. Christians do bad things. Muslims do bad things. Hindus do bad things. Pony-GAF does bad things. Who you pray to at night has nothing to do with it, despite how much some factions like to think it does.

Atheists don't do bad things in the name of their religion. Christians and Muslims do.

To the OP - Religion is poison. So no?

 

[Lesath]

Come now, atheists did not "create" atheism. Tell me, did you come to the conclusion that there is no invisible magical teapot floating above your head by yourself, or did somebody have to tell you? No, if anything is to blame, it is yourself. Your brain is honed by millions of years of evolution to seek out the most rational, most pragmatic answer. And once it has it, it refuses to be deluded otherwise. Otherwise, what exactly has been keeping you from going back, if you were so happy before?

As far as "cool" reasons to live goes, I encourage you think back upon your fondest and worst memories. In the scope of an infinite afterlife of bliss with a supreme being, they wouldn't matter, and in nothingness, they wouldn't matter. All you are and where would therefore cease to matter in death, but at the moment, right now, you are thinking and breathing. Savor it.

 

[Nocebo]

[...]
The people who say its logical to not believe, how is it logical in any sense? How does me not believing all of a sudden make me a logical person? I believe how I act makes me a logical person. Please stop using "Im atheist because I am logical" it doesn't make you logical at all.

Only a naive illogical person would say that debates like these don't matter. Meanwhile millions of Africans are dying due to aids because the church says condoms are immoral.

Also how is it logical to believe something for which there is no evidence?

 

[Korey]

Humans are atheists by default, so no

 

[Poimandres]

What intriguing findings? What I find intriguing is that when you accept that the brain is where the consciousness is and originates from and nowhere else that there are no real mysteries. While if you think otherwise you would need a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile certain data.

I'm not advocating the idea of an after life, but I do think there is a lot about consciousness we don't understand. NDEs are commonly reported, and people who have experienced them have been known to bring up specific details about things that occur while they are unconscious. This isn't real evidence, but the scientific community has found it intriguing enough that proper studies are being conducted.

There is an extensive study of 1,500 patients which has been running since 2008 coordinated by Dr. Sam Parnia. Last year Sam had this to say on the matter "evidence is now suggesting that mental and cognitive processes may continue for a period of time after a death has started" and describes the process of death as "essentially a global stroke of the brain. Therefore like any stroke process one would not expect the entity of mind / consciousness to be lost immediately".

Like I said, intriguing. I don't think anyone can deny we have a long way to go before reaching a fully functional model of human consciousness.

 

[Angry Fork]

In fact, I can make a strong argument that deliberately choosing to live in a more pleasant but admittedly false world view can have tangible benefits not just for yourself, but for the rest of the world.

 

[jaxword]

Logical people would not waste their time on this debate, because it does not matter if you believe or not.

Oh, this is wrong. Very, very wrong. Religion is politics. And politics shape our world. People KILL over religion all across the world. People die for another person's holy dirt. People slaughter because God is on their side.

It matters a very big deal whether you believe or not, because that shows what kinds of arguments and reasoning will work.

Someone who is completely unreasonable and unwilling to listen to any arguments is a very, very dangerous person.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Because lacking concrete proof of an assertion and still choosing to believe it is illogical. If I said to you that I think that Obama is a reptilian plant by the Illuminati, and that I firmly believe this because you can't prove it's not the case either way, don't you think you would find that pretty illogical?

Firstly, some people believe the universe's existence is proof of a creator. Are you equating them with people who believe Obama is a reptilian plant? Or just fundamentalists? The former would be a ridiculous comparison.

Secondly, the entire premise of most religions is faith. Which is inherently, by definition, not based on absolute proof by evidence, except in varying views and opinions. Shitting on people because they are "illogical" must mean some of the people in this topic hate/are disappointed with 90% of the world. People who believe in karma, luck, blessings, and anything remotely not enveloped in concrete evidence and "logicality".

There's a huge, huge grey area between "oh hey the universe is an intricate and wonderful place, I'll choose to put my faith in the category that pertains to it having a creator" and "Obama is a reptilian plant". Making such long reaches is akin to the "lol santa claus" posts here(which are always made by the same people, who never really contribute to serious discussions with posts worth reading) and in all the similar topics.

This is the same merry-go-round spiel that happens in all these topics. Almost verbatim, everytime.

 

[Cyan]

The people who say its logical to not believe, how is it logical in any sense? How does me not believing all of a sudden make me a logical person? I believe how I act makes me a logical person. Please stop using "Im atheist because I am logical" it doesn't make you logical at all.

If you're getting hung up on the word "logical," try reading it as "based on real-world evidence and inductive reasoning."

 

[jaxword]

There's a huge, huge grey area between "oh hey the universe is an intricate and wonderful place, I'll choose to put my faith in the category that pertains to it having a creator" and "Obama is a reptilian plant". .

There are people who genuinely believe things that are similar to the latter. Strongly, 100% believe with all their heart and mind, regardless of the proof to the contrary. Are they truly wrong?

 

[Tenck]

Why?

You're not worried about praying before a meal or before bed. You don't have to worry about Church. You don't have to worry about going to hell or heaven.

It's just peaceful. I mean, I'm not a bad person and I actually believe in good morals. I try to be nice and not take things for granted. I like to thank my parents and people around me for the good things in my life. I just love that I don't have to worry about pleasing someone/something(?) so I can be rewarded with eternal life in Heaven.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

There are people who genuinely believe things that are similar to the latter. Strongly, 100% believe with all their heart and mind, regardless of the proof to the contrary. Are they truly wrong?

There is proof to the contrary that Obama is a reptilian plant. There isn't proof to the contrary that there may be a creator(of any kind) to the entire universe. Statistics and odds, sure. But that's where someone's faith may come in.

Do tell.

Typo *hides Obama reptile rose bush statue*

 

[Deleted member 1235]

sounds like you're saying 'being a grown up sucks'

 

[jaxword]

There is proof to the contrary that Obama isn't a reptilian plant. There isn't proof to the contrary that there may be a creator(of any kind) to the entire universe. Statistics and odds, sure. But that's where someone's faith may come in.

I wasn't specifically referring to the Obama=plant idea. Let's take people who truly BELIEVE things that are unprovable either way. Say, they saw a UFO and aliens talk to them in their mind now. Or that they are actually an athropromorphic cat inside their soul. Or that shuffling cards can predict the future.

In other words, there's no criteria or qualitative way to discern whose faith is right if they operate under the "you can't prove it wrong, therefore it's right" stance.

 

[Count Dookkake]

There is proof to the contrary that Obama isn't a reptilian plant.

Do tell.

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

Oh, this is wrong. Very, very wrong. Religion is politics. And politics shape our world. People KILL over religion all across the world. People die for another person's holy dirt. People slaughter because God is on their side.

It matters a very big deal whether you believe or not, because that shows what kinds of arguments and reasoning will work.

Someone who is completely unreasonable and unwilling to listen to any arguments is a very, very dangerous person.

But a real religious person would never kill for their deity.

/typical rebuttal

 

[Salacious Crumb]

There is proof to the contrary that Obama is a reptilian plant. There isn't proof to the contrary that there may be a creator(of any kind) to the entire universe. Statistics and odds, sure. But that's where someone's faith may come in.



Typo *hides Obama reptile rose bush statue*

Saying that you believe in some sort of creator of the universe is fine, ostensibly it may even seem to be the most logical option for many, but to make the leap that that creator is the 'god' described in the bible or any other religious text on earth is incredibly illogical.

 

[Speevy]

did you actually read the OP or the thread title?

Sure I did.

I do not think Atheists have a negative impact on the world, although I do not agree with their views.

The original post um...yeah, I read that too, I'm sad to say.

 

[cajunator]

I don't really see a point in arguing about religion.
There's no way to prove it either way. You either believe it or you don't.

 

[Mgoblue201]

I could see someone lamenting the loss of religion if it meant giving up a belief in god who actually had humanity's best interests in mind. But such a religion probably doesn't exist. Instead, it means giving up on a belief that immediately creates a dichotomy between believers and non-believers based upon an obedience to some archaic ideas and a moral system that is more concerned with evil invisible imps than the happiness of people. Believers who do try to imagine Jesus as some kind of inclusive humanist are just cherry picking.

 

[Knox]

I don't really see a point in arguing about religion.
There's no way to prove it either way. You either believe it or you don't.

Only one side has something to prove.

 

[PumpkinPie]

So OP believed in heaven until an Atheist told him it wasn't real and now he's mad that they spoiled it for him? He obviously didn't hold much strength in his beliefs if someone else's opinion changed them so easily.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Saying that you believe in some sort of creator of the universe is fine, ostensibly it may even seem to be the most logical option for many, but to make the leap that that creator is the 'god' described in the bible or any other religious text on earth is incredibly illogical.

Thanks mate, that was pretty much what I would have replied. Being open to things is a good idea, I take issue with dogma.

 

[Nocebo]

I don't really see a point in arguing about religion.
There's no way to prove it either way. You either believe it or you don't.

You must be living under a rock then.

 

[Rei_Toei]

If you live to die you have problems... really. Live and enjoy it. Its gone in the blink of a second.

Grandpa: Can I give you some advice?
Dwayne: [shakes head "no"]
Grandpa: Well, I'm going to give it to you, anyway. I don't want you making the same mistakes I made when I was young. Dwayne, that's your name, right? Dwayne? Listen to me, this is the voice of experience talking. Are you listening? Fuck a lot of women, Dwayne.
Richard: Dad!
Grandpa: I got no reason to lie to you kid, fuck a lotta women. Not just one, a lot. So are you gettin' any? Is it going anywhere?
Dwayne: [shakes his head no]
Grandpa: No? Jesus! What are you? Fifteen? You should be gettin' that young stuff! That young stuff is the best stuff in the world!

 

[les papillons sexuels]

There is proof to the contrary that Obama is a reptilian plant. There isn't proof to the contrary that there may be a creator(of any kind) to the entire universe. Statistics and odds, sure. But that's where someone's faith may come in.



Typo *hides Obama reptile rose bush statue*

there is proof to the contrary that every organized religion has a false understanding of the universe, how it works, it's timeline etc.

So our understanding of god could be completely wrong aswell, what if god(s) is(are) merely a microbe that floats around aimlessly.

Hell, what exactly defines god(s) in the first place. What defines reptilian plant by that means?

 

[SmokyDave]

There are no inherent values in atheism, and for that simple fact I think some type of religious belief system is beneficial in society in terms of people trying to do good. I wonder if polling was done on who donates more to charity and volunteers more of their time to good causes where the religious would rank compared to atheists?

Also, one of the biggest bitches I've ever dealt with was a god hating atheist, that being my first experience, and her being an utterly morally bankrupt vile human being lead to my bias against atheists in general. To me, it was a built in excuse not to have to own up to moral responsibility in life since you never had to pay the price for what you had done, as long as it wasn't against the law.

You basically decided that the characteristics of the first atheist that you met was typical of all atheists?

You're probably not in a position to be making morality judgements.

 

[davepoobond]

not more than the religions they do not believe in.

 

[Dreaver]

To be honest I think religon does more harm than good. And do you really need a religon to be nice to eachother?

 

[Mortrialus]

Anyone who thinks Mao pushed atheism is, unfortunately, ignorant.

He REPLACED religion with himself. So yes, it was atheist in that there's no God, but no, it was not, because he WAS God.

Mao used a Cult of Personality to control the masses, which uses a very similar mentality to religion--one could say it's religion without the supernatural.

Mao is The Leader. He will Save us. He can do anything. You must believe in Mao.

This. The same applies to North Korea as well.

Have atheists done bad things throughout history? Of course. Have people one bad things in the name of atheism? No. That is impossible. Atheism is not a belief system. It is not a philosophy. It is a single position on a single question: Do you believe in a theistic god? If you answer is anything except "yes", you're an atheist. You simply cannot tie that single position as the motivation for any action good or bad.

Also, one of the biggest bitches I've ever dealt with was a god hating atheist, that being my first experience, and her being an utterly morally bankrupt vile human being lead to my bias against atheists in general. To me, it was a built in excuse not to have to own up to moral responsibility in life since you never had to pay the price for what you had done, as long as it wasn't against the law.

If they actively hated god, then they weren't an atheist by default.

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

Do you believe in a theistic god? If you answer is anything except "yes", you're an atheist.

Could be a deist.

 

[markot]

I don't really see a point in arguing about religion.
There's no way to prove it either way. You either believe it or you don't.

People use religion to justify their actions on earth, the laws they want passed, the way they want society and the world to run. If you cant see why that is worth arguing about, then I dont know what you could think is worth it.

 

[Mortrialus]

Could be a deist.

Deists are theists.

 

[markot]

Also you cant be an atheist and hate god.

You can hate fictional beings for what they represent, and what their followers do in his name.

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

Deists are theists.

Oh, ok.

 

[UrbanRats]

Santa is fake, too.

Cry more.

Can you prove it?
Believing in his non existance, is as much faith as believing in his existance.

 

[markot]

Can you prove it?
Believing in his non existance, is as much faith as believing in his existance.

Yeah, he is just this dude in Finland who gets dressed up once a year for the cameras with the reindeer >.<

 

[daviyoung]

Can you prove it?
Believing in his non existance, is as much faith as believing in his existance.

I can prove he doesn't exist by setting up a camera in my living room for a night in December.

 

[SmokyDave]

Can you prove it?
Believing in his non existance, is as much faith as believing in his existance.

My ghast is utterly flabbered.

 

[Knox]

Can you prove it?
Believing in his non existance, is as much faith as believing in his existance.

False equivalence of epic proportions. Would you also be willing to say it takes just as much faith to believe in unicorns as it would not to?

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

You basically decided that the characteristics of the first atheist that you met was typical of all atheists?

You're probably not in a position to be making morality judgements.

I see it on both sides like this all the time. Including here on GAF. Especially here on GAF.

 

[shanshan310]

It didn't realise that anyone felt the same way that I do OP, thankyou. I feel kind of terrified that I can't believe anymore. Its very comforting, being sure about what you believe. Over the past few years its just slowly melted away though. I'd still like to think there is a heaven, but who knows really.

 

[jaxword]

I'd still like to think there is a heaven, but who knows really.

For there to be a heaven, it'd be up to us to make it here on Earth for everyone.

 

[Amir0x]

Well that was a disappointing OP when compared to the title.

I mean, I think the universe is a beautiful, astounding thing and looking up to the sky is as eye opening and blissful as ever before. I don't need a heaven to be there to fulfill my life.

I will say, though, that being raised by hardcore religious fundamentalists, it is still to this day difficult for me to not occasionally have to fight myself internally over, for example, the idea that if I don't believe in God that my family will somehow be rewarded with eternal life and I won't be. I know it's false, it's not even a debate with me - but it's extremely difficult to not on a rare occasion have a pang of subconscious doubt due to the way I was raised.

This is another reason why I think in general teaching most of the judeo christian religions to children is basically child abuse. One, because the texts these religions are based on is a horrifying thing from a moral point of view. But two, because it becomes such a brainwashing tool that shaking it completely as an adult is difficult for many. I am lucky... others... not so much.

 

[UrbanRats]

False equivalence of epic proportions. Would you also be willing to say it takes just as much faith to believe in unicorns as it would not to?

Don't be racist towards Unicorns now.

I can prove he doesn't exist by setting up a camera in my living room for a night in December.

You're a Santa skeptic, so you're on his black list and he won't visit you (but he does watch you sleep, from the window).