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[unomas]

There are no inherent values in atheism, and for that simple fact I think some type of religious belief system is beneficial in society in terms of people trying to do good. I wonder if polling was done on who donates more to charity and volunteers more of their time to good causes where the religious would rank compared to atheists?

Also, one of the biggest bitches I've ever dealt with was a god hating atheist, that being my first experience, and her being an utterly morally bankrupt vile human being lead to my bias against atheists in general. To me, it was a built in excuse not to have to own up to moral responsibility in life since you never had to pay the price for what you had done, as long as it wasn't against the law.

 

[Nocebo]

Atheists do bad things. Christians do bad things. Muslims do bad things. Hindus do bad things. Pony-GAF does bad things. Who you pray to at night has nothing to do with it, despite how much some factions like to think it does.

If you think religion isn't used to fuel and strengthen the determination to commit certain atrocities then you're pretty naive to put it mildly. Also for certain religious groups the contents of their doctrine is absolutely the cause of the "bad things" they commit.

 

[jaxword]

Also, one of the biggest bitches I've ever dealt with was a god hating atheist, that being my first experience, and her being an utterly morally bankrupt vile human being lead to my bias against atheists in general.

This honestly sounds like you were just looking for an excuse to hate those you disagree with.

 

[Ketchup Boy]

What's the meaning of life to atheists?

I'm checking wikipedia and there is sooo many to choose from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

The absurdism one is kind of making sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

I also like this Secular Humanism one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Humanism

We, humans, and other creatures came into existence for whatever fu*king reason and might as well make the most of it and try to have some fun. Makes sense?

 

[Acerac]

I'm an atheist and I believe in all of the typical christian ideals more than many who would have you believe they are christian do.

I think the world would be better off without humans, personally.

 

[vilmer_]

Everything it took to create this Universe is within you.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Is it really better? I've been thinking all day about beliefs.

It's difficult to sort out your belief system - at least from what you posted here. You were raised Catholic, and were admittedly fairly religious. But now you're no longer a believer, and while you recognize that something is absent from your life, you don't place too much value on it. At least that's what I've taken from your writing.

The whole 'you don't need religion for morals' is an interesting statement, and virtually one impossible to prove or disprove. For example, we live in what I think is fairly called a post-Christian society in the West. Our laws, foundational ethics, and patterns of life are still 'borrowed' from the earlier Christian culture. As we move away from that past society, set up our new social norms and so forth, I think we'll be able to look at the this question much better than we can now.

Also, reducing the state-enforced atheism of Soviet Russia and China to cults of personality is very misleading. The cults themselves were created to maintain that man's control of the party, and sure, they achieved in some ways a divinization of the leader. However irreligion was very much the thrust of the state into the public sphere. The explicit purpose of state atheism in these countries was to completely remove religious belief for the sake of emancipation of the proletariat and progress.

I'm also curious about how New Atheists feel about Richard Rorty's assertion that sans an ultimate being that is the arbiter of good and evil, that there's no reason whatsoever to lead a moral life.

 

[universalmind]

Only Atheists who believe in it and preach it so much it's become their religion.

 

[Opiate]

First Postulate: you have a finite amount of time to consider and understand the world around you.

Second postulate: there is an infinite or near-infinite number of things to understand.

If we accept these two postulates, then it seems reasonable to conclude that one should not attempt to thoroughly understand everything in the universe, as you'll die before you even get done analyzing the stuff inside your house.

Further, it may be simpler, more time efficient, and less emotionally draining to either simplify or contrive an explanation for some things. In other words: you cannot fight all battles in a single lifetime. Ignoring certain battles -- or even pretending those battles don't exist -- can save intellectual and emotional resources, which seem nearly limitless when spread out over the course of a lifetime, but are quite finite when compared to the amount of comprehensible things in the universe.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't know about a negative impact but I can say that I've definitely noticed a negative attitude from a lot of atheists on the net. But that could also be due to the fact that the online world is full of cynicism.

I've noticed the basic fact of life that denying things is inherently more distressful to people than asserting things.

I could talk to people and assert crystal power, homeopathy, and ancient aliens all I want, and people will still perceive me as a positive, happy human being (even if they think I'm wrong and crazy).

But denying what other people assert is ALWAYS a dirty business, because you're essentially denying not only the belief, but the believers. There's always the issue of being perceieved as "attacking others" when denying certain beliefs, and that draws some measure of negative stink or outright hatred when in the process of denying.

The thing with atheism is that you only will see the tip of the iceburg of all people who are truly "lacking theism", because of this imbalance between asserting/denying. Some atheists will keep their mouth shut, to avoid "disrespect". Some don't care who they offend, and will broadcast it without a care. The nature of atheism fosters iconoclasts as their strongest voice, because they don't care who they offend. And some people who generally hold respect will be seen as "disrespectful" anyway, simply by means of asserting their position. The result is a heavily skewed idea of atheists as only the worst kind of intellectual rabble-rousers. The broadcasting of the position favours the most brash individuals, and so it appears that the belief is brash. But it is not so...

Long story short: the very position of atheism tends to foster the idea that atheists are annoying, society-disrupting haters, when it's really a problem of denying other's beliefs which creates a false stereotype. The average atheist may not resemble anyone's stereotype of an athiest.

 

[Sqorgar]

I still believe that you should be kind and respectful to one another, but it was cool to believe in Heaven and that you could go there if you were a good person which I personally thought I was beasting out on. I know that people used/use religion to do many horrible things, but it personally made me be a better person and care for others, to care for the poor more. Actually, before I started getting religious in the 3rd or 4th grade I was a pretty bad kid and would get into fights and steal candy/Sport cards and junk (lolol).

More likely, you became less naive as you grew up. As such, your gradual change into a not "better person" happened simultaneously with becoming an atheist, but because one is a measurable point of change, it gets all the credit. It's a common mistake to think back to a more naive time and assume things were better rather than you just being too naive to know that they weren't.

People become worse people as they grow up because it becomes more difficult to maintain that naivete that allows you to be good all the time. Like a bum asking for change. Living in a naive world allows you to believe that giving money to him will help him. But then you start thinking that he's likely to spend that money on drugs or alcohol, that he is actually making better than minimum wage by exploiting the kindness of strangers, or even that he might not actually be a bum at all and has an SUV parked around the corner - I'm not saying all these are true. But that they become possibilities that make the decision of helping this stranger into a more nuanced decision. Are you helping? Are you enabling? Are you being taken advantage of? Would your help be better served by donating to a charity that helps the homeless or volunteering at a shelter? Is giving money to this stranger really in the name of helping, or is it just a simple throw away action that makes you feel better about yourself for not doing more? Maybe you are giving that money more for your own self image than actually helping anybody in any significant way?

Atheism is the belief system of someone who is okay - even overjoyed - with the world being complicated.

But yeah, I started to stop believing 2 or 3 years ago and one of the coolest reasons to live was taken away from me. :.( But there is still the possibility that there is a mad cool reason why we even exist and maybe some cool stuff does happen when we die.

As a strong atheist, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there is a mad cool reason why we exist, and that cool stuff does happen when we die. But it's not a divine plan and it's not an afterlife. More like... evolution.

 

[scorcho]

What's the meaning of life to atheists?

I'm checking wikipedia and there is sooo many to choose from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

why should there be a meaning to life? i understand the impulse in trying to make sense out of the unknown, but the question of 'why', 'what' or 'how' doesn't hold much relevance to me personally.

 

[unomas]

This honestly sounds like you were just looking for an excuse to hate those you disagree with.

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

 

[Monocle]

There are no inherent values in atheism, and for that simple fact I think some type of religious belief system is beneficial in society in terms of people trying to do good. I wonder if polling was done on who donates more to charity and volunteers more of their time to good causes where the religious would rank compared to atheists?

Why does it have to be a religious belief system? Why not a secular one?

About your second remark, charitable behavior doesn't magically erase wrongdoing, so even if religious people were ten times more charitable than atheists they'd still have a lot to answer for.

Also, one of the biggest bitches I've ever dealt with was a god hating atheist, that being my first experience, and her being an utterly morally bankrupt vile human being lead to my bias against atheists in general. To me, it was a built in excuse not to have to own up to moral responsibility in life since you never had to pay the price for what you had done, as long as it wasn't against the law.

I had an analogous experience as a kid. The first apple I ate had a worm in it, so now I despise all fruit. Perfectly rational, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Jintor]

To me, it was a built in excuse not to have to own up to moral responsibility in life since you never had to pay the price for what you had done, as long as it wasn't against the law.

Really? Because Atheism to me means that you are utterly responsible for your own actions. You, and no-one else.

 

[The Technomancer]

There are no inherent values in atheism, and for that simple fact I think some type of religious belief system is beneficial in society in terms of people trying to do good. I wonder if polling was done on who donates more to charity and volunteers more of their time to good causes where the religious would rank compared to atheists?

You could view it that way. But I'd rather people were doing things for the right reasons: because they felt they were good things to do, not so they'd earn spiritual brownie points.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

You sound like someone who isn't a pleasure to have around.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

This is so hilariously retarded. I'd rather take someone who's LOYAL to have my back personal beliefs be damned.

 

[Opiate]

There seems to be an inherent and profound desire of humans to find order in, or superimpose order on, the cosmos. For many, or perhaps most, to live in a disorderly universe is to live in a constant state of anxiety.

I believe this is an affliction both of atheists and theists, and that the primary difference between the two groups is in the design of their remedy.

 

[jaxword]

A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone,

Kind of ironic you'd say that.

 

[Poimandres]

Interesting. While death is something everyone has to deal with intellectually at some point, for many non-religious people, there's hardly that moment of "that's not true! That's impossible!".

A lot of kids are raised with "you die, that's it, get prepared", and that's actually just fine for them.

I think the real issue is people being raised with "you die, AWESOME STUFF HAPPENS" and it's the chipping away of that obvious lie which can make for depressing times....

To be fair, I don't think we can definitively talk about what happens after death. There's a lot we don't know about the nature of consciounsess, and there have been some intriguing findings in NDE studies.

If a child asks me what happens when you die my response would be "noone truly knows".

 

[Jintor]

Would you say that skepticism is an inherent value to athiesm?

 

[Nocebo]

I'm also curious about how New Atheists feel about Richard Rorty's assertion that sans an ultimate being that is the arbiter of good and evil, that there's no reason whatsoever to lead a moral life.

Confucius says: "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself"
If everyone lead an immoral life we wouldn't get very far in life. We're social animals and societies are created on trust. Leading a moral life is absolutely required for survival for a social species.
Actually how long have religions that claim there's a single arbiter of good and evil been known to humans? And how long have humans walked the earth. Did the Chinese and Japanese know of this arbiter thousands of years ago?

 

[The Technomancer]

Would you say that skepticism is an inherent value to athiesm?

I would say that it should be, even if it isn't always.

 

[Monocle]

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

Which is more moral: a good deed done for its own sake or one performed to obey a command from an authority figure who threatens punishment for disobedience? And who is more reliable: a person who is consistently good for the sake of being good, or one who follows orders?

 

[Ketchup Boy]

More likely, you became less naive as you grew up. As such, your gradual change into a not "better person" happened simultaneously with becoming an atheist, but because one is a measurable point of change, it gets all the credit. It's a common mistake to think back to a more naive time and assume things were better rather than you just being too naive to know that they weren't.

People become worse people as they grow up because it becomes more difficult to maintain that naivete that allows you to be good all the time. Like a bum asking for change. Living in a naive world allows you to believe that giving money to him will help him. But then you start thinking that he's likely to spend that money on drugs or alcohol, that he is actually making better than minimum wage by exploiting the kindness of strangers, or even that he might not actually be a bum at all and has an SUV parked around the corner - I'm not saying all these are true. But that they become possibilities that make the decision of helping this stranger into a more nuanced decision. Are you helping? Are you enabling? Are you being taken advantage of? Would your help be better served by donating to a charity that helps the homeless or volunteering at a shelter? Is giving money to this stranger really in the name of helping, or is it just a simple throw away action that makes you feel better about yourself for not doing more? Maybe you are giving that money more for your own self image than actually helping anybody in any significant way?

Atheism is the belief system of someone who is okay - even overjoyed - with the world being complicated.


As a strong atheist, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there is a mad cool reason why we exist, and that cool stuff does happen when we die. But it's not a divine plan and it's not an afterlife. More like... evolution.

Yeah, I studied economics in college (done with my requirements, now studying math and comp. sci. ) and all that stuff makes sense. *sigh* I always analyze things, now.

So according to you, we can decide how things evolve and the course of history or direction that our species take?

 

[thetrin]

But yeah, I started to stop believing 2 or 3 years ago and one of the coolest reasons to live was taken away from me. :.( But there is still the possibility that there is a mad cool reason why we even exist and maybe some cool stuff does happen when we die.

Wait, your reason to live was the cool place you were going to go when you die? Did you ever actually think for more than 5 seconds about that train of thought?

Which is more moral: a good deed done for its own sake or one performed to obey a command from an authority figure who threatens punishment for disobedience? And who is more reliable: a person who is consistently good for the sake of being good, or one who follows orders?

Obviously the person who is good because they want to be good is truly more good than one who is good because God demands it. Anyone who would say otherwise is wrong.

 

[scorcho]

Would you say that skepticism is an inherent value to athiesm?

i would think that skeptics are more likely to be agnostic or atheist by default. to hold onto religion would require a suspension of disbelief that is hard to reconcile with a questioning, doubtful mind.

 

[disappeared]

Religion alone has had a negative impact on the world.

 

[scorcho]

Religion itself has had a negative impact on the world.

Man has had a negative impact on the world. Religion is just one of many tools that has been used to justify our actions.

 

[thetrin]

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

Yeah, because Christianity definitely advocates inherent good, rather than the mystical and magical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that god gives them for being good people.

The only people I want having my back are my friends and family. No matter their creed, their beliefs, their gender or their social status. My friends and family love me as much as I love them, and no religion or belief can replicate that in kind.

 

[BocoDragon]

To be fair, I don't think we can definitively talk about what happens after death. There's a lot we don't know about the nature of consciounsess, and there have been some intriguing findings in NDE studies.

If a child asks me what happens when you die my response would be "noone truly knows".

I can accept that.

But any kind of assertion of what does happen, so as to derive some sort of earthly comfort from it... we're in la la land, no doubt. Or at least "rampant speculation land". You really shouldn't be deriving some sort of confidence from it that we're all going to be hanging out in an afterlife later, or whatever.

As someone who is very open to what you say... I think it's quite possible that nothing passes on... and if something DOES pass on, it's not like it's confidently YOU, the collection of thoughts that your brain has accumulated, etc. Our personality is quite clearly tied to our brain... so if our consiousness goes on, what does that REALLY mean?

If there is some rational form of afterlife, it's still a transition that is so drastic as to be feared* as much as an atheist "full stop"!

*(or NOT feared, as it were)

 

[thetrin]

The worst part about death is it's going to be like seeing an awesome youtube video you can't forward to anyone who would appreciate it.

You'll be like "OH SHIT! THAT'S WHAT IT'S LIKE!" but you won't be able to link it to anyone still alive.

 

[Monocle]

Yeah, because Christianity definitely advocates inherent good, rather than the mystical and magical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that god gives them for being good people.

The only people I want having my back are my friends and family. No matter their creed, their beliefs, their gender or their social status. My friends and family love me as much as I love them, and no religion or belief can replicate that in kind.

Well, Christianity does serve the vital function of making children feel ashamed about their own sexuality, so I guess that's something.

Man has had a negative impact on the world. Religion is just one of many tools that has been used to justify our actions.

Religion is defined by and dependent on its followers. Indict one and you necessarily indict the other. (Though of course there can be intrafaith disputes. I'm not suggesting all adherents to a particular religion can be held accountable for everything it represents, nor the actions of other followers.)

 

[Ketchup Boy]

Wait, your reason to live was the cool place you were going to go when you die? Did you ever actually think for more than 5 seconds about that train of thought?

hahaha they also said you'd go straight to hel! if you killed yourself. Then every time I heard about someone killing themselves, I felt bad because they were supposedly going to hel!. notice how I put exclamation marks on the word hel! I can't stop doing it weird. I used to think it was bad to say. hahaha

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

Nothing about atheism has a negative impact on the world. Unless you're religious and don't like being mocked about it. Which, let's be honest, you deserve for believing in a fairy tale.

 

[jaxword]

Would you say that skepticism is an inherent value to athiesm?

Only in a correlative way. There's plenty of gullible atheists out there. In fact, it's almost as if there's a "belief vacuum" if you don't believe in things like Gods or demons.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

I'm not talking about good morals. I'm talking about it was cool believing that you could go to Heaven, a sick magical place, just if you were a good person which was easy. Then people became party poopers and said there was no such thing.

You must have been devastated when you learned Santa wasn't real.

 

[Speevy]

I think the kinds of discourse we engage in here at Neogaf concerning these issues has a negative impact on the world.

For example, any discussion which endlessly recycles the same arguments until one group overpowers the other, leaving many self-satisfied and others left out.

Most religious people are just trying to live their lives, and if you wish to destroy their way of thinking through words or actions, you're just wasting time that ought to be spent doing something actually constructive.

 

[Monocle]

I think the kinds of discourse we engage in here at Neogaf concerning these issues has a negative impact on the world.

For example, any discussion which endlessly recycles the same arguments until one group overpowers the other, leaving many self-satisfied and others left out.

Most religious people are just trying to live their lives, and if you wish to destroy their way of thinking through words or actions, you're just wasting time that ought to be spent doing something actually constructive.

Or maybe these threads have had a huge positive impact on the lives of lurkers who you will never know of. In any case, I think it's better to discuss controversial topics than to sweep them under the rug, even if people repeat themselves most of the time.

 

[Nocebo]

To be fair, I don't think we can definitively talk about what happens after death. There's a lot we don't know about the nature of consciounsess, and there have been some intriguing findings in NDE studies.

If a child asks me what happens when you die my response would be "noone truly knows".

What intriguing findings? What I find intriguing is that when you accept that the brain is where the consciousness is and originates from and nowhere else that there are no real mysteries. While if you think otherwise you would need a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile certain data.

Or maybe these threads have had a huge positive impact on the lives of lurkers who you will never know of. In any case, I think it's better to discuss controversial topics than to sweep them under the rug, even if people repeat themselves most of the time.

Exactly. And an overnight deconversion is rare. It usually takes time and deep reflection before one can shake the mental manacles forced on people from birth by religion.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

- Douglas Adams

 

[scorcho]

Most religious people are just trying to live their lives, and if you wish to destroy their way of thinking through words or actions, you're just wasting time that ought to be spent doing something actually constructive.

did you actually read the OP or the thread title?

 

[Reprise]

Nope, just ran into a loud mouth liar who also happened to be a proud atheist. A person that would literally make things up and flat out lie to slander someone, not a great experience. There are bad apples in every bunch, but good deed for good deed I'll take a devout Christian over an Atheist to have my back any day of the week, and I'm not a Christian.

Ahh the devout christian/muslim whatever who would be an mean spiteful backstabbing prick during the week and then redeem themselves, paying off their moral credit card by going to church every Sunday only for them to splurge during the week?

Met plenty of those types in my travels.

 

[BocoDragon]

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

- Douglas Adams

I hate this quote because I want fairies.

Spoiler

Sexy fairies.

I think the kinds of discourse we engage in here at Neogaf concerning these issues has a negative impact on the world.

For example, any discussion which endlessly recycles the same arguments until one group overpowers the other, leaving many self-satisfied and others left out.

Most religious people are just trying to live their lives, and if you wish to destroy their way of thinking through words or actions, you're just wasting time that ought to be spent doing something actually constructive.

Pity on those who think they're here to win arguments. I think the minds of people on GAF have been expanded by these threads, be they religious, atheist or anyone in-between.

 

[Count Dookkake]

These "debates" are for the long game. It works out pretty well.

 

[njean777]

Anyone think religious people have had a negative impact on the world?

Also, just because it was nice to believe in the fairy tale, it doesn't make it any more true. Life's better without it. You're free to make your own purpose. And furthermore, because it isn't true, it doesn't make the lack of religion inherently negative.

We all have to (should) grow up one day.

So just because I believe I am not a grown up? great to know.

The problem between atheist's and religious people is they fail to see each others logic. You have militant atheist which are unreasonable, same with religious extremist's. Logical people would not waste their time on this debate, because it does not matter if you believe or not. I have many atheist friends and many christian, we all get along and have great times. Never letting religion get in the way of who we are.

Also to all the people saying Europe lost a thousand years thanks to the church, you need to do more research and look at the scientific advancements during the Dark ages. They were not stupid and herp derp like many history books would have you believe. Just look here to see that there was scientific advancement during the middle ages. Don't get me wrong the church did a lot of bad things, but when enlightenment was around so did scientist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_Middle_Ages

The people who say its logical to not believe, how is it logical in any sense? How does me not believing all of a sudden make me a logical person? I believe how I act makes me a logical person. Please stop using "Im atheist because I am logical" it doesn't make you logical at all.

 

[Poimandres]

I can accept that.

But any kind of assertion of what does happen, so as to derive some sort of earthly comfort from it... we're in la la land, no doubt. Or at least "rampant speculation land". You really shouldn't be deriving some sort of confidence from it that we're all going to be hanging out in an afterlife later, or whatever.

As someone who is very open to what you say... I think it's quite possible that nothing passes on... and if something DOES pass on, it's not like it's confidently YOU, the collection of thoughts that your brain has accumulated, etc. Our personality is quite clearly tied to our brain... so if our consiousness goes on, what does that REALLY mean?

If there is some rational form of afterlife, it's still a transition that is so drastic as to be feared* as much as an atheist "full stop"!

*(or NOT feared, as it were)

I agree completely.

What we should actually be doing is trying to cultivate the idea that the unknown isn't something to be feared.

 

[Knox]

So just because I believe I am not a grown up? great to know.

The problem between atheist's and religious people is they fail to see each others logic. You have militant atheist which are unreasonable, same with religious extremist's. Logical people would not waste their time on this debate, because it does not matter if you believe or not. I have many atheist friends and many christian, we all get along and have great times. Never letting religion get in the way of who we are.

Also to all the people saying Europe lost a thousand years thanks to the church, you need to do more research and look at the scientific advancements during the Dark ages. They were not stupid and herp derp like many history books would have you believe. Just look here to see that there was scientific advancement during the middle ages. Don't get me wrong the church did a lot of bad things, but when enlightenment was around so did scientist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_Middle_Ages

The people who say its logical to not believe, how is it logical in any sense? How does me not believing all of a sudden make me a logical person? I believe how I act makes me a logical person. Please stop using "Im atheist because I am logical" it doesn't make you logical at all.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logic

 

[Momo]

Not for the sake of atheism no.