Support NeoGAF

[mrkgoo]

I don't see a need to have 2 cameras. All it needs is one in the front for video chats. A second might be nice, but it's still a bit awkward to use a big tablet like this to take photos. I can see it coming in handy for some applications, though.

I lost my post regarding front-facign camera to 500 error, but gist is that it's the primary feature missing from this iteration. iChat or SKype partnered default is a killer app. It would've sold devices.

And then I can have a mirror as well.

 

[dyls]

Quick question: Did Apple ever really talk about the lack of Flash, or is it all stemming from the point in the presentation when Jobs went to the NY Times site? Because it seems a bit odd that someone as prepared as Jobs would forget that there is Flash on that site, or assume that the internet, which catches every mundane detail ever, wouldn't notice. Which makes me think it had to be on purpose. But why? To fire a shot across Adobe's bow? Perhaps they are in negotiations and he wanted the uproar to be seen to help get a deal in place?

I suppose everyone would have found out anyway once they got the hands on, but I still find it strange.

 

[mrkgoo]

Quick question: Did Apple ever really talk about the lack of Flash, or is it all stemming from the point in the presentation when Jobs went to the NY Times site? Because it seems a bit odd that someone as prepared as Jobs would forget that there is Flash on that site, or assume that the internet, which catches every mundane detail ever, wouldn't notice. Which makes me think it had to be on purpose. But why? To fire a shot across Adobe's bow? Perhaps they are in negotiations and he wanted the uproar to be seen to help get a deal in place?

I suppose everyone would have found out anyway once they got the hands on, but I still find it strange.

Some people speculate that it was very deliberate. But I'd wager not to get a 'deal', as Adobe very much want flash on the device, and it's Apple's decision not to have it for whatever reason.

Probably just making a point that it doesn't have it (just like the iPhone).

 

[XMonkey]

It looked deliberate to me from watching the Keynote during the NYT part. Jobs even left the missing plugin logo there for awhile before moving off it :lol

 

[dyls]

Some people speculate that it was very deliberate. But I'd wager not to get a 'deal', as Adobe very much want flash on the device, and it's Apple's decision not to have it for whatever reason.

Probably just making a point that it doesn't have it (just like the iPhone).

But why would he want to make that point knowing it would anger nearly everyone, minus some of the Flash-haters? Just to get it out of the way?

 

[Tobor]

Quick question: Did Apple ever really talk about the lack of Flash, or is it all stemming from the point in the presentation when Jobs went to the NY Times site? Because it seems a bit odd that someone as prepared as Jobs would forget that there is Flash on that site, or assume that the internet, which catches every mundane detail ever, wouldn't notice. Which makes me think it had to be on purpose. But why? To fire a shot across Adobe's bow? Perhaps they are in negotiations and he wanted the uproar to be seen to help get a deal in place?

I suppose everyone would have found out anyway once they got the hands on, but I still find it strange.

This. No matter what you believe is the reason for the lack of Flash, it's clear Apple has drawn the line in the sand and won't budge on this. Adobe is taking it very personally:

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1703

A few points:

1. How much this is really about porn?(Gruber's opinion)

2. Looking at that list, I'm not bothered by the lack of Flash personally.

3. I've changed my tune on this. I'll buy the argument as App Store vs. Flash.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Obviously I haven't used it, but I actually expect quite the opposite. When you're 'really' typing you're not looking at the keyboard, you're looking at the screen. When you're not looking at a keyboard with no tactile feedback, your hands drift.

Note that this is not the first large-size tactile-less keyboard ever. They were mildly popular in the 80s for a while until everyone realized how much they sucked. They were flat plastic surfaces with low resistance button keys and you really couldn't touch type on them.

Two handed typing while looking at the keyboard is very tedious. A lot of people are going to discover that now, I suspect.

If I were designing it I'd have probably put two iphone-size keyboards on each of the two bottom corners to allow you to easily use your thumb for typing, because I think that'll actually be more comfortable.

I think the fact that the screen is the keyboard mitigates that to a large degree. Peripheral vision should keep your hands properly oriented even if your gaze is focused on the text you're typing.

 

[D4Danger]

This. No matter what you believe is the reason for the lack of Flash, it's clear Apple has drawn the line in the sand and won't budge on this. Adobe is taking it very personally:

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1703

A few points:

1. How much this is really about porn?(Gruber's opinion)

2. Looking at that list, I'm not bothered by the lack of Flash personally.

3. I've changed my tune on this. I'll buy the argument as App Store vs. Flash.

what did you think was the reason before then?

 

[Teddman]

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1703

Ouch. Good thing there's no mass market competing tablet right now... A good commercial ad campaign designed around how many websites don't work with the iPad would cripple its appeal.

Think Verizon's "There's a Map For That" ads but way worse.

 

[dyls]

It looked deliberate to me from watching the Keynote during the NYT part. Jobs even left the missing plugin logo there for awhile before moving off it :lol

I thought so too. Either that, or he was just having an, "Oh, Fuck I didn't mean to show that" moment. But again, that doesn't sound like the obsessive Jobs that we all know and [insert extreme emotion here].

I wonder if it was some sort of red herring, and that they have a solution planned. Again, I don't know why they would go through the trouble, but it just seemed off...

 

[Tobor]

what did you think was the reason before then?

I was buying into the HTML5 argument. If HTML5 video works fine on Mobile Safari down the road, then that's a valid point. Too early to tell.

 

[Seraphis Cain]

How about really really old?

Yeah, and I have no real interest in the iPad, so I'm not reading through 59 pages just to see if one link has been posted or not. :lol

Plus, I tried searching the thread to make sure, but searching is still down.

 

[SnakeXs]

Ouch. Good thing there's no mass market competing tablet right now... A good commercial ad campaign designed around how many websites don't work with the iPad would cripple its appeal.

Think Verizon's "There's a Map For That" ads but way worse.

Not that Apple would, but the vast majority of those are covered or will be covered by apps, and the rest are pretty menial.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Hopefully Notion isn't intending to do it all from scratch themselves. What they need, and what I hope they were aiming for, is interest from a major manufacturer to develop the product.

So what is Notion Ink bring to the table to attract a major manufacturer?

They use off-the-shelf components and Android OS. Why wouldn't a major manufacturer just buy those same components--the screen, the NVidia chip, the battery, ect. and call it a day? Why cut Notion Ink in at all?

In the end, I don't care who makes it -- the concept is the most attractive tablet-with-limited-OS I've seen purely because of the e-ink adaptable screen.

As a concept, it's pretty sweet. Unfortunately, a concept will never find it's way into your shopping basket.

If the iPad2 has a Qi screen, the price will start looking more attractive to me.

Over the last 15 years, I usually get to go to CES, but couldn't this time. A photographer friend of mine that I usually go with was there though, and gave me a pretty thorough briefing on his impressions. We've checked out everything from the first e-ink displays to SED (R.I.P.) so I trust his eyes. For backlight off operation, the screen is nice, (well, it's faster and a quite a bit cleaner than e-ink, anyway,) but for everything else, it's crap compared to the screen on the iPad. Not even in the same league as an LED-backlit IPS LCD. He reported: Pretty terrible viewing angles by modern LCD standards. Colors don't pop, and aren't particularly accurate. Somewhat fuzzy/blurry overall (but again, sharper than e-ink).

I think we'll see iPad II before we see the tech improved enough for Apple. But we may see it on a third or fourth revision...who knows?

 

[mrkgoo]

I thought so too. Either that, or he was just having an, "Oh, Fuck I didn't mean to show that" moment. But again, that doesn't sound like the obsessive Jobs that we all know and [insert extreme emotion here].

I wonder if it was some sort of red herring, and that they have a solution planned. Again, I don't know why they would go through the trouble, but it just seemed off...

If you go back to the iPhone demo, it's there too.

To be honest, I think the simplest answer is the most likely - that he just doesn't give a damn if it was shown or not. If anything it's just showing adobe that they haven't put flash in there, but I don't see what that really achieves except letting them know without calling them.

I mean what do they expect Adobe to do about it? Is it Adobes current implementation? If adobe changes something, will they then let it in?

 

[Tobor]

Ouch. Good thing there's no mass market competing tablet right now... A good commercial ad campaign designed around how many websites don't work with the iPad would cripple its appeal.

Think Verizon's "There's a Map For That" ads but way worse.

2 problems with that.

1. You can't show a porn video failing in an ad.

2. It's hard to make the argument for games when Apple can counter with App Store gaming.

This sums it up:

Here’s an email I got from a DF reader:

"I was in line waiting for a coffee on Christmas day. In front of me was a kid, about nine or ten, who had an iPhone. He clearly had gotten it that morning. He was pushing frantically at a white box on a web page with the broken plug-in symbol. He was squeezing it, swiping it. He was frustrated and on the verge of getting pissed with his new toy. It seemed like he was trying to hit an online game page, probably one he was used to playing on the family PC. Finally I couldn’t take it anymore. I leaned over and said, “It won’t load Flash. It won’t play your Flash games.” His mom, ignoring him up to that point, was triggered by a stranger talking to her kid. “That’s okay honey,” she said, “we’ll get you a game from the App Store.” His response to this? He started working that device even harder. He didn’t want an App Store game; he wanted his Flash game. And that iPhone suddenly took a huge dive in value to him.

Like it or not, Apple needs to come to terms with this. If only for the kids."

I think this anecdote, and this reader’s takeaway from it, accurately captures the feeling behind much of the “Apple has got to bend on this eventually” sentiment that’s out there.

But think about it from Apple’s perspective. How do you think this situation turned out in the long run? Do you think the kid told his mom to return the iPhone for a refund? Or, do you think they went home and started buying games from the App Store? That there was a period of initial frustration due to Flash games not playing doesn’t change the fact that they (a) bought an iPhone and (b) were set to buy games from the App Store.

http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash

 

[Panda1]

Is it not possible for someone to write a homebrew browser that supports flash?
Of course we would have to wait for it to be cracked frist

 

[D4Danger]

I was buying into the HTML5 argument. If HTML5 video works fine on Mobile Safari down the road, then that's a valid point. Too early to tell.

Naa. If they were really trying to support HTML5 they would include Vorbis\Theroa support as well but they don't (Google does)

Also, I read the post by Gruber. That guy is pathetic. He thinks the guy at Adobe should be fired :lol

 

[mrkgoo]

Is it not possible for someone to write a homebrew browser that supports flash?
Of course we would have to wait for it to be cracked frist

I was wondering this myself.

Even if it were - would Apple block it?

Anyway, aren't thirdparty 'browser' apps still based on a safari API?

 

[Tobor]

Naa. If they were really trying to support HTML5 they would include Vorbis\Theroa support as well but they don't (Google does)

Also, I read the post by Gruber. That guy is pathetic. He thinks the guy at Adobe should be fired :lol

Huh, I read that as him needing to look for a job since Flash wont win this war. But you might be right.

 

[border]

I was in line waiting for a coffee on Christmas day. In front of me was a kid, about nine or ten, who had an iPhone. He clearly had gotten it that morning. He was pushing frantically at a white box on a web page with the broken plug-in symbol. He was squeezing it, swiping it. He was frustrated and on the verge of getting pissed with his new toy. It seemed like he was trying to hit an online game page, probably one he was used to playing on the family PC. Finally I couldn’t take it anymore. I leaned over and said, “It won’t load Flash. It won’t play your Flash games.” His mom, ignoring him up to that point, was triggered by a stranger talking to her kid. “That’s okay honey,” she said, “we’ll get you a game from the App Store.” His response to this? He started working that device even harder. He didn’t want an App Store game; he wanted his Flash game. And that iPhone suddenly took a huge dive in value to him.

I'm sorry, that sounds like such a horseshit story. :lol :lol

COMING SOON:

The Grandma Who Couldn't Multi-Task

The Disabled World War 2 Veteran Who Couldn't Find The USB Port

 

[mrkgoo]

As for the reason it doesn't have it, I think it's just a stability/security thing. It's a plug-in that's not theirs. Adobe have to update it. And what happens when they do? They give it to Apple, and then we have to wait for a firmware update?

What if it's buggy, Safari keeps crashing, who gets the brunt of "The browser keeps crashing!"? Apple does. Apple's product gets hampered by something that's not under their control.

People know that by getting a third party app that it's not apple's fault (well, some don't), but if Safari is borked...

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Isn't the keyboard is bigger in landscape orientation than it is in portrait?

I'm sure it is, I meant it would be cool if we could manually adjust the size of the keyboard ourselves.

 

[Teddman]

Flash has always worked fine enough on normal OS X Macs.

Look, Apple not supporting Flash is about money, plain and simple.

Flash competes with iTunes, because it opens up an array of streaming video sites that will offer plenty of free content to watch. Apple wants you to buy/rent movies from them.

Flash compete with App Store, because it opens up an array of free website games. Apple wants you to buy games from them.

Flash puts a strain on AT&T's 3G network, because it's not equipped to handle people streaming Hulu and Netflix all day at iPad size data rates. It will cost AT&T money well beyond a $30 unlimited plan would offset. Can't have that.

This is also the reason the iPad doesn't have a standard USB connector or support playing video files in anything but Apple formats through the iTunes browser.

Sorry, I can't really have any sympathy for a decision to put profits so nakedly above the interests of customers, not to that extent.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Flash has always worked fine enough on normal OS X Macs.

Look, Apple not supporting Flash is about money, plain and simple.

Flash competes with iTunes, because it opens up an array of streaming video sites that will offer plenty of free content to watch. Apple wants you to buy/rent movies from them.

Flash compete with App Store, because it opens up an array of free website games. Apple wants you to buy games from them.

Flash puts a strain on AT&T's 3G network, because it's not equipped to handle people streaming Hulu and Netflix all day at iPad size data rates. It will cost AT&T money well beyond a $30 unlimited plan would offset. Can't have that.

This is also the reason the iPad doesn't have a standard USB connector or support playing video files in anything but Apple formats through the iTunes browser.

Sorry, I can't really have any sympathy for a decision to put profits so nakedly above the interests of customers, not to that extent.

Netflix doesn't use flash.......

Edit: And how does watching videos in other formats "overload" At&t servers and hurt apple? It's just a format? How does usb destroy the network either?

 

[Teddman]

Uses Silverlight. Also not supported.

 

[Xeke]

I feel like my ipod touch would catch fire running flash if the current OS X rendition is anything to go on.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Netflix has already said their exploring an app, as we already discussed.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Uses Silverlight. Also not supported.

Which isn't flash so? You were bitching about flash and flash usage crashing due to netflix streaming but you still wouldn't be able to watch netflix. So what are we talking about again?

 

[mrkgoo]

What are the ads on gaf using?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

What are the ads on gaf using?

The TMNT one at the top is flash for me, I dunno what google ads is.

 

[Tobor]

Netflix has already said their exploring an app, as we already discussed.

As is Hulu. And there are porn sites who offer h.264 video for iPhone. *cough* That's what I hear anyway. *cough*

 

[D4Danger]

Netflix has already said their exploring an app, as we already discussed.

The biggest problem with that is they'd need to work with Apple to support whatever DRM it is they're using.

At the moment they use Microsoft's PlayReady on Silverlight. Many sites use Flash and Adobe Protected Streaming.

If Apple don't support the DRM or provide one it can use then there's no way they'll start streaming to the iPad/iPhone without it.

 

[Blackhead]

Im looking for excuses to buy this cause its just so damn sexy, but ive got an iphone, a macbook and a pretty fast desktop... I dont think this was designed for me.

No multitasking and no flash are kind of a shame. Though i cant imagine them not incorporating multi tasking if they intend for this to be an end all be all kind of device.

I do want one though, especially at 400/450 euros. Damn thats cheap for such a cool toy. But why lug it around when youve got an iphone or macbook? Maybe its a bit like a Wii and just not for me.

Anyway, who here has an iphone, macbook, pc and still plans to buy this?

Me. But I'm primarily getting it as an ebook reader and note taker

 

[Tobor]

The biggest problem with that is they'd need to work with Apple to support whatever DRM it is they're using.

At the moment they use Microsoft's PlayReady on Silverlight. Many sites use Flash and Adobe Protected Streaming.

If Apple don't support the DRM or provide one it can use then there's no way they'll start streaming to the iPad/iPhone without it.

Right, but Silverlight for iPhone is also being worked on, which determines the device and serves h.264. That would solve the problem, right?

 

[XMonkey]

Flash has always worked fine enough on normal OS X Macs.

Look, Apple not supporting Flash is about money, plain and simple.

Flash competes with iTunes, because it opens up an array of streaming video sites that will offer plenty of free content to watch. Apple wants you to buy/rent movies from them.

Flash compete with App Store, because it opens up an array of free website games. Apple wants you to buy games from them.

Flash puts a strain on AT&T's 3G network, because it's not equipped to handle people streaming Hulu and Netflix all day at iPad size data rates. It will cost AT&T money well beyond a $30 unlimited plan would offset. Can't have that.

This is also the reason the iPad doesn't have a standard USB connector or support playing video files in anything but Apple formats through the iTunes browser.

Sorry, I can't really have any sympathy for a decision to put profits so nakedly above the interests of customers, not to that extent.

This, so many times over.

Before the iPad I think Apple could get away with blaming lack of Flash support on it being too resource intensive for the iPhone or whatever other argument. Well, that doesn't fly with the iPad anymore.

 

[mrkgoo]

Flash has always worked fine enough on normal OS X Macs.

Look, Apple not supporting Flash is about money, plain and simple.

Flash competes with iTunes, because it opens up an array of streaming video sites that will offer plenty of free content to watch. Apple wants you to buy/rent movies from them.

Flash compete with App Store, because it opens up an array of free website games. Apple wants you to buy games from them.

Flash puts a strain on AT&T's 3G network, because it's not equipped to handle people streaming Hulu and Netflix all day at iPad size data rates. It will cost AT&T money well beyond a $30 unlimited plan would offset. Can't have that.

This is also the reason the iPad doesn't have a standard USB connector or support playing video files in anything but Apple formats through the iTunes browser.

Sorry, I can't really have any sympathy for a decision to put profits so nakedly above the interests of customers, not to that extent.

I don't buy that it's about money from content necessarily. Otherwise you'd only be able to use drm movies. Buy apps? What is stopping those free flash places from making a free app? Or people downloading the free app games?

If flash were stopped on a desktop, would those people who play them suddenly go and buy games instead?

 

[Teddman]

I don't buy that it's about money from content necessarily. Otherwise you'd only be able to use drm movies. Buy apps? What is stopping those free flash places from making a free app? Or people downloading the free app games?

You do know that Apple makes money off of even free apps right?

Every Flash website must make an App!

CHA CHING!

 

[Tobor]

So we've got three major arguments:

1. No Flash speeds up the switch to HTML5

2. Flash interferes with the App Store

3. Flash causes more crashes on OSX than any other application. Apple is more concerned with stability.

Can't it be all 3?

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Flash has always worked fine enough on normal OS X Macs.

Look, Apple not supporting Flash is about money, plain and simple.

Flash competes with iTunes, because it opens up an array of streaming video sites that will offer plenty of free content to watch. Apple wants you to buy/rent movies from them.

Flash compete with App Store, because it opens up an array of free website games. Apple wants you to buy games from them.

Flash puts a strain on AT&T's 3G network, because it's not equipped to handle people streaming Hulu and Netflix all day at iPad size data rates. It will cost AT&T money well beyond a $30 unlimited plan would offset. Can't have that.

This is also the reason the iPad doesn't have a standard USB connector or support playing video files in anything but Apple formats through the iTunes browser.

Sorry, I can't really have any sympathy for a decision to put profits so nakedly above the interests of customers, not to that extent.

common knowledge

 

[SnakeXs]

The Flash competes with the App Store thing blows my mind.

Do people not realize that Apple makes 0 say in pricing, and *gasp* you can make games free?

Thinking that's where Apple wringing their revenues from is crazy.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

In regards to Flash, isn't it possible that Apple will allow it on the iPad? I mean, we've only known about the thing for a few days, and to my knowledge, no one from Apple has commented in any way about Flash support.

 

[mrkgoo]

You do know that Apple makes money off of even free apps right?

Every Flash website must make an App!

CHA CHING!

Besides the developers fee, they do?

Edit: forgot. You need to buy a mac to develop. :lol. Maybe you're right.

Are there web app games?

Not trying to argue. Just tryiNg to get information to form a better picture.

I always just assumed it was a control of the platform issue.

 

[mrkgoo]

The Flash competes with the App Store thing blows my mind.

Do people not realize that Apple makes 0 say in pricing, and *gasp* you can make games free?

Thinking that's where Apple wringing their revenues from is crazy.

As I edited, you have to buy sdk. That wasn't enough to really make me reconsider, but then i remembered - that sdk has to run on a mac.

Devious.

So I guess the arguement is that without flash , users turn tithe AppStore. To make an app for the appstre developers have to buy macs.

If true then most likely is a tobor said, all three things (plus maintain control). By removing flash, they get win-win-win.

 

[D4Danger]

In regards to Flash, isn't it possible that Apple will allow it on the iPad? I mean, we've only known about the thing for a few days, and to my knowledge, no one from Apple has commented in any way about Flash support.

It's possible I guess. As bad as things get between Adobe and Apple, Adobe would jump at the chance to get Flash on as many platforms as possible. They are a business after all.

But I think if Apple were going to do it they would've done it by now. I can understand it not being on the iPod/iPhone because Flash content that isn't video just wanted work. No Flash content is ever designed for a screen that small but on something like the iPad it's a poor decision not to include it since so much of the web does use it (whether Steve Jobs likes it or not)

 

[Tobor]

It's possible I guess. As bad as things get between Adobe and Apple, Adobe would jump at the chance to get Flash on as many platforms as possible. They are a business after all.

But I think if Apple were going to do it they would've done it by now. I can understand it not being on the iPod/iPhone because Flash content that isn't video just wanted work. No Flash content is ever designed for a screen that small but on something like the iPad it's a poor decision not to include it since so much of the web does use it (whether Steve Jobs likes it or not)

Well, the games will never work due to interface issues, so all we're really talking about is video.

As I edited, you have to buy sdk. That wasn't enough to really make me reconsider, but then i remembered - that sdk has to run on a mac.

Devious.

It's not the best argument, though. Adobe is acting like it's Flash or nothing, and the reality is that Adobe is protecting it's revenue as much as Apple is. Two companies butting heads.

The fact remains that there are 75 million web browsers and counting that do not support Flash sold to customers, and their needs are being taken care of elsewhere.

Realistically, If you're Apple, and your customers are happy and you're making money, why do you budge on this?

 

[giga]

Flash not supported because of App Store? Didn't I go over this already?

Majority of flash games require a mouse and keyboard people.

 

[Futureman]

You've alI pretty much nailed it, but I the think strain on AT&T's network has got to be numero uno. They can barely keep up without Flash... Just think of what implementing it on all these AT&T/Apple devices would do.

 

[D4Danger]

Flash not supported because of App Store? Didn't I go over this already?

Majority of flash games require a mouse and keyboard people.

Well, the games will never work due to interface issues, so all we're really talking about is video.

There's no reason you can't add an abstraction layer to this to support keyboard commands.

You could map keys to on screen buttons and the mouse to touch or something.

I'm not saying it would be perfect but it would probably work for most things. I don't think it's a limitation worth sacrificing everything for.

You've alI pretty much nailed it, but I the think strain on AT&T's network has got to be numero uno. They can barely keep up without Flash... Just think of what implementing it on all these AT&T/Apple devices would do.

Well again that's Apple's fault for locking their product down to one carrier.