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Are there any "lost" games?

It's a pretty well known phenomenon in the other mediums - works in which there are no existing copies. A lot of the BBC's early archives for instance are lost due to bad storage or just having the original copies rewritten.

The equivalent for video games I'd imagine would be a lost source code which would prevent future ports. I think the most notable example of this would be Panzer Dragoon Saga's source code. Without a source code, the game will likely only continue to exist on emulators going forward.

So with what said, are there any games out there who's source codes have been lost to time?
 

Vico

Member
256px-LostViaDomusCover_small.jpg


Had to be done, right? :p

Edit: too late, obviously. :p
 
OK, I didn't mean games based on the Lost TV series (which by the way, most overrated TV show of the last decade). I was referring to games in which the source codes have vanished.
 

Roto13

Member
There are only a handful of Marble Madness 2 arcade machines in existence and I don't think anyone has managed to copy the ROM from one of them. So I guess once those machines are gone, that will be it.
 
I wonder if some MMORPG's suffer from this issue since all them go through so many different updates and iterations through their lifecycle.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
I wonder if some MMORPG's suffer from this issue since all them go through so many different updates and iterations through their lifecycle.

Well I guess in that regard any offline MMO is basically lost. Such as Star Wars Galaxy and Tabula Rasa. No one ever playing those again unless they make their own server nonsense to it. Not to mention if its offline I don't see why they'd hold onto the source code.
 
It's a pretty well known phenomenon in the other mediums - works in which there are no existing copies. A lot of the BBC's early archives for instance are lost due to bad storage or just having the original copies rewritten.

The equivalent for video games I'd imagine would be a lost source code which would prevent future ports. I think the most notable example of this would be Panzer Dragoon Saga's source code. Without a source code, the game will likely only continue to exist on emulators going forward.

So with what said, are there any games out there who's source codes have been lost to time?

This sort of thing seems to have happened a lot among Japanese companies, like Atlus losing the source code for the original Devil Summoner.
 

Takao

Banned
I believe Atlus lost the source code to Princess Crown, and SMT: Devil Summoner.

I wonder if some MMORPG's suffer from this issue since all them go through so many different updates and iterations through their lifecycle.

Yep, sometimes to embarrassing results:

There's a good chance you've never heard of M2, a small free-to-play MMO developed by Japanese company Sankando and operated by Hangame, and if it wasn't for a major misstep last month, your ignorance might've gone on indefinitely. Due to a recent accident, the MMO was deleted and won't be coming back. Ever.

The story goes like this: On October 21st, M2 suffered a critical server issue and the game was taken offline to check it out. Unfortunately, the problem was widespread and the company could not restore the game's data from whatever backups it did or did not have. With no other option but to declare the title dead on arrival, Hangame posted an announcement that it somehow deleted an entire MMO and could not -- or would not -- restart it from scratch.

Hangame has since apologized and is offering conditional refunds to affected players, who were undoubtedly miffed when the money they spent on M2's microtransactions went poof during one October night.
 

Katori

Member
With the way that the games industry has a massive turnover in companies and jobs, I'd imagine there are thousands. When everyone gets fired without being able to collect their things, you lose a lot of code.

I'd imagine that ever since games became a "thing" (since about Halo or maybe Halo 2 era, growing exponentially after Modern Warfare), companies became way more interested in archival. But still, for example...who has the code of THQ games? Sure, Volition might have Saints Row or Red Faction stuff, but where is the code to Destroy All Humans? Would it be worth trying to find, for anyone? It's a complex legal web, not to mention that the code may be physically located in disparate places.

I think that it will become less of a problem nowadays, but it's not the same as films or TV shows. If just one person DVR's or tapes your TV show, there is a copy of it (this is how many early Doctor Who episodes are archived still today). But with games, only a handful of people (potentially the entire company, even though it would be legally irresponsible to copy it for personal or archival use) ever have access to the code, and once they're gone it's a crapshoot as to whether or not they're able to maintain it. I believe the onus is on games companies for this kind of stuff in the future.
 
Zing.

Too Human I'm sure will be.

Nah, Too Human will continue to exist I think. There hasn't been any indication that the source code has been lost. Due to the lawsuit, it just can be released. Maybe in 30 years or something, someone will get a hold of it and release it for historical curiosity and the game will exist again. Who knows.
 
With the way that the games industry has a massive turnover in companies and jobs, I'd imagine there are thousands. When everyone gets fired without being able to collect their things, you lose a lot of code.

I'd imagine that ever since games became a "thing" (since about Halo or maybe Halo 2 era, growing exponentially after Modern Warfare), companies became way more interested in archival. But still, for example...who has the code of THQ games? Sure, Volition might have Saints Row or Red Faction stuff, but where is the code to Destroy All Humans? Would it be worth trying to find, for anyone? It's a complex legal web, not to mention that the code may be physically located in disparate places.

I think that it will become less of a problem nowadays, but it's not the same as films or TV shows. If just one person DVR's or tapes your TV show, there is a copy of it (this is how many early Doctor Who episodes are archived still today). But with games, only a handful of people (potentially the entire company, even though it would be legally irresponsible to copy it for personal or archival use) ever have access to the code, and once they're gone it's a crapshoot as to whether or not they're able to maintain it. I believe the onus is on games companies for this kind of stuff in the future.

If that's the case, there must be thousands upon thousands of games - and actually software in general, without any source codes. A great many of them probably disappear every year without much fanfare because they aren't that notable but every once in a while there's a Panzer Dragoon Saga.

What about Western games? Any examples there?
 

Roto13

Member
Games aren't really "lost" because their source code is lost, as long as copies of the game continue to exist out there somewhere.
 
I made a thread about finished games that never saw release. There's also digital-only titles that were removed from their market places due to publisher bankruptcy, or license expiration that will never see release again. They're not exactly lost source code, but they're close enough to being lost games.

i wish i could play r-type on my ps3 but it was removed before i could buy it. i dont think it can be bought anywhere anymore, due to Irem's demise
 

nan0

Member
Wasn't the original FF VII PSX source code (minus the assets) gone? So Eidos had to hack together the PC version based on an older version of the sources, which resulted in a messy port.
 

Arkos

Nose how to spell and rede to
This is what worries me most about video games as a medium going forward, I think it's a serious problem we should all think about.

I foresee many games being lost. Even games like Halo 2 or Journey will be "lost" in a sense when their online multiplayer support goes away (see Halo 2 MP). How can you even "archive" something like online multiplayer, that is a crucial element of both of these games (and many more)?

We must find a solution! Nice to see a thread concerned about the archiving of games and sich.
 
D

Deleted member 102362

Unconfirmed Member
I made a thread about finished games that never saw release. There's also digital-only titles that were removed from their market places due to publisher bankruptcy, or license expiration that will never see release again. They're not exactly lost source code, but they're close enough to being lost games.

I didn't realize older versions of Condition Zero actually still existed.
 
Wasn't the original FF VII PSX source code (minus the assets) gone? So Eidos had to hack together the PC version based on an older version of the sources, which resulted in a messy port.

Dunno, but you just reminded me Konami doesn't have (or can't be bothered to search properly - I wouldn't be surprised) the final source code of Silent Hill 2 & 3. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-29-silent-hill-hd-collection-ported-from-unfinished-code

But I don't consider lost source code = lost game, and in any case beta somewhat buggy source code is miles better than no source code at all :p
 
Too Human might be.

granted you can still find copies online but they pulled the digital release on live because of the UnrealEngine lawsuit, so I imagine they may be bought out in time.
 
I'd wager most of the game make in the retro era from the 70's to early 90s from now defunct developers are probably gone so for as sourcecode goes. Counting in now unreadable file formats or arcade only releases, there are probably a few that are completely gone.

For games from the cd and dvd eras, as long as a working copy exists i'd wager you could rip the iso or even recompile the games for their surcecodes.

Online dependent games are iffy for now defunct ones, as the company may not have saved any of the server side codebase. Online only games for defunct services are probably completely gone.
 

Neff

Member
It's a pretty well known phenomenon in the other mediums - works in which there are no existing copies. A lot of the BBC's early archives for instance are lost due to bad storage or just having the original copies rewritten.

The equivalent for video games I'd imagine would be a lost source code which would prevent future ports. I think the most notable example of this would be Panzer Dragoon Saga's source code. Without a source code, the game will likely only continue to exist on emulators going forward.

So with what said, are there any games out there who's source codes have been lost to time?

It's not an issue, so long as the game is on a disc somewhere, meaning it can be reversed-engineered by skilled coders. The huge majority of ports aren't created using old assets, they're created by simply dumping a retail release of the game, taking it apart, and putting it back together. It's difficult, but rarely impossible.
 

Borman

Member
Games aren't really "lost" because their source code is lost, as long as copies of the game continue to exist out there somewhere.

Which don't last forever. I have media from 2002-2003 that already has bit rot.

I am actually researching gaming prototypes in my spare time, leading up to an eventual PhD. Games disappear more often than we would like. Gaming archives aren't kept. Places go out of business. Here is a quick write up I did on reddit :

This : http://ptoponline.com/?p=945
Is the most basic of it really.
I plan on doing a more complete write-up at some point. But basically, hundreds of prototypes are created every year, most of them are disposed of and never thought of again. But just like deleted scenes in movies, or lost TV shows of popular series (think Doctor Who), the history of games are important. Games aren't just a passing fad.

Right now, preservation is mostly focused on the end point, in preserving the games that came out. But the others are just as important, you can learn a lot from a prototype. There can be good ideas within one, or there could be a thousand bad ideas. Imagine if a game programmer had a chance to sit down and look at it and see why?

Ask companies like SEGA how it feels to lose source code. There is a monetary benefit to preserving the data. Being able to jump back 20 or 30 years in a companies history, and to pull out individual assets, has the potential to make money. But if that data is being thrown out (literally), then there is nothing to be gained.

So what I try to do right now is raise awareness to developers and the gaming community as a whole that these things matter. If we don't back them up now, there simply won't be anything to save later. Bit rot is only going to claim more and more data as time goes on. Data backups are nearing the end of their shelf lives, assuming that they were stored properly in the first place.

How can we access the things that are backed up, what kind of hardware is required to get there? And software? What about licenses to compile the software? And even once you have the game, how are you going to play it? Modifying a system, which could be illegal? Emulators? But what about a PS3 game, for instance?

Ultimately, the companies need to have some sort of reliable, uniform system to ensure they have the data. Beyond that, an external system needs to be designed. What happens when a company goes out of business? If the sole holder of the data dies? Morbid, but it could happen.

I just know I would rather have the data safely backed up now, than to have to pick up the pieces and dig through garbage to find remnants of what was and what could have been.
And of course, there needs to be a way to play the games. Games are pointless without the interactive element.
 

espher

Member
I wonder if some MMORPG's suffer from this issue since all them go through so many different updates and iterations through their lifecycle.

Confirming this was the case w/ DAoC. I remember the conversation when we were discussing the throwback Old Frontiers Classic reboot in the TL program. Needed to rewrite a lot of the code/assets.
 
Wasn't the original FF VII PSX source code (minus the assets) gone? So Eidos had to hack together the PC version based on an older version of the sources, which resulted in a messy port.

I don't know about FF VII, but Square did lose the source code of FF III (NES).
 
I foresee many games being lost. Even games like Halo 2 or Journey will be "lost" in a sense when their online multiplayer support goes away (see Halo 2 MP). How can you even "archive" something like online multiplayer, that is a crucial element of both of these games (and many more)?

I'd wager a few MUDs are already lost. Maybe even more than a few.
 

sarcoa

Member
Regarding Panzer Dragoon Saga's code, wasn't there a PC port ready to go on Gametap, but it got held up in some legal paperwork? I remember hearing or reading that somewhere.
 

Loona

Member
Apparently SNK lost the source code and assests to its NeoGeo 64 arcade games, and since done of those got a direct home version (Fatal Fury Wild Ambition got a PS1version with extra characters, but couldn't retain the original version's look), once they leave the few arcades that still carry them, it's over.

Probably happens to a lot of aging arcade games, but it would have been nice to try out Buriki One's control scheme at home.
 
Regarding Panzer Dragoon Saga's code, wasn't there a PC port ready to go on Gametap, but it got held up in some legal paperwork? I remember hearing or reading that somewhere.

Wasn't a port, it was being emulated, if I recall correctly. It was pretty much ready to be released from what I remember, though. Digital manual was ready and everything.
 
I think the OP meant lost in the sense that it was released and/or broadcast but is all but gone now. e.g. MMO without a private server, arcade game that isn't dumped or emulated.

But a similar note quite a bit of the Satellaview broadcasts. Yes the ROMs can be dumped, emulators sure have advanced in how to make the BIOS etc interact but the live broadcasts preservation was down to people who recorded the audio (and bear in mind these were originally broadcast in the 90s) and this isn't always clean (plus I'm sure many games are missing, IIRC, Fire Emblem, Zelda and F-Zero are complete). I'd guess copyright or actual loss prevent official re-releases. But still loads of games have been found, its just how much more can done which remains to be seen.

I guess the SEGA network stuff (either the modem in Japan or SEGA channel) might be in kind of in a similar position.

For the non-serious answer of let's laugh at lost source code. Chocobo's Dungeon on the PS1. When it came to translating the game the source code would not compile, asking around (for the missing files) it had been deleted because the job was finished (I guess hard drives were kind of small back then, still what about CDs...). Bear in mind that could have been months after the game came out (or a few years at most).

Another answer to give...the North American Super Mario Bros release date...its a similar story, in an era when we write down so much, why is this piece of information so well...flaky.
 

Jac_Solar

Member
I think it would be a good idea to establish a company that "stores" the source codes for various games. Like, as soon as the basic source code has been finished at the development level, it'd be normal to send it to this company for archival purposes.

It'd serve as a server for the games, and perhaps it could share the source code if the game company goes bankrupt, or for other reasons. But there are lots of legal hurdles for IP's and such, so there needs to be a legal precedent as well for this to happen - like, if no one releases a game in the vein of the originator of the IP (To prevent someone releasing a game with a 5$ budget simply to maintain the IP.), the archival company is allowed to share it.

Gaming is still very disorganized when it comes to this. People and companies hang on to IP's for decades, which prevents other people and companies from making a new game with similarities, or the IP itself.

If there was a central archive for gaming that had some unique legal rights, people might be inclined to share source code they've personally got stored from various companies as well.
 

Oneironaut

Neo Member
If always on DRM catches on, we'll have a lot more of them before too long. I think having millions of copies out there with none of them playable would qualify a game as lost.
 

Aguirre

Member
i dont know if it counts, but the game "XIII" cannot be bought online (at least digitally) anymore... indefinitely.
 
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