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[Gangxxter]

What about Western games? Any examples there?

The source of Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee (and probably Exoddus too) is lost. Therefore Oddworld Inhabitants (or Just Add Water, who have practically taken over the whole development/support of the Oddworld franchise now) can't release a patch which would fix some problems of Oddysee on modern PCs. Luckily the compatibility issues are not that bad and a few fan patches are also out there.

Besides that a brand new HD remake of Oddysee is in the works anyway.

 

[encephalon]

I believe Atlus lost the source code to Princess Crown, and SMT: Devil Summoner.

And yet, they ported both to PSP?

 

[Borman]

That doesn't matter. If every physical copy of Final Fantsay VII ceased to exist, you'd still be able to find and play Final Fantasy VII.

Released games are only the tip of the iceberg though.

ROM carts for Bioforce Ape (NES) and Star Fox 2 (SNES) were only recently recovered.

Im not aware of any carts for Star Fox 2 existing, I dont think that one was found in cart form, at least from any evidence that Ive seen.

 

[baphomet]

Thankfully most every game that was released is preserved thanks to pirates. Even things like Marble Madness 2 and Arcade Beavis and Butthead are backed up even if they're not publicly available. Even MMO's previous incarnations are being backed up such as vanilla WoW. Prototypes, especially the older generations, are increasingly lost to time. To think Ill never be able to see the floating ufo's in Marble Zone on the first Sonic game bums me out. The only actual footage of it happens to come from the Noah's Arcade commercial in the first Wayne's World movie.

Im not aware of any carts for Star Fox 2 existing, I dont think that one was found in cart form, at least from any evidence that Ive seen.

Obviously, you are more qualified than anyone in this thread on preservation, but I'm under the same impression.

 

[Takao]

And yet, they ported both to PSP?

They were emulated, which is why they weren't localized.

 

[Jac_Solar]

This is what worries me most about video games as a medium going forward, I think it's a serious problem we should all think about.

I foresee many games being lost. Even games like Halo 2 or Journey will be "lost" in a sense when their online multiplayer support goes away (see Halo 2 MP). How can you even "archive" something like online multiplayer, that is a crucial element of both of these games (and many more)?

We must find a solution! Nice to see a thread concerned about the archiving of games and sich.

P2P multiplayer -- people host their own servers on their console/computer.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Concerning the Panzer Dragoon Saga source code. Couldn't Sega just buy a copy off Ebay and reverse engineer it or see the code on the disc? or just rebuild it from scratch using Saturn hardware and reporgramming every detail from the game?

 

[Borman]

Concerning the Panzer Dragoon Saga source code. Couldn't Sega just buy a copy off Ebay and reverse engineer it or see the code on the disc? or just rebuild it from scratch using Saturn hardware and reporgramming every detail from the game?

You're talking about years worth of work. It isn't an easy task at all.

Obviously, you are more qualified than anyone in this thread on preservation, but I'm under the same impression.

Everyone I talked to seem to think that the prototypes were from a PC or data backup and not a cart. You would think an image of the cart would have turned up by this point. Even Wiki says it was compiled from the source code I know it may not seem like a big deal, but finding a source archive versus finding a ROM cart is a huge difference really.

 

[tokkun]

Concerning the Panzer Dragoon Saga source code. Couldn't Sega just buy a copy off Ebay and reverse engineer it or see the code on the disc? or just rebuild it from scratch using Saturn hardware and reporgramming every detail from the game?

Yes, but that would likely not be profitable since the market for the game is small.

 

[encephalon]

They were emulated, which is why they weren't localized.

Surprised to hear that the PSP could emulate Saturn games.

 

[televator]

Aren't the Silent hill games missing the full source code? Also didn't Blue Point pretty much prove that no source code wasn't the end of a game's continued existence by reverse engineering retail disk assets?

 

[Borman]

Aren't the Silent hill games missing the full source code? Also didn't Blue Point pretty much prove that no source code wasn't the end of a game's continued existence by reverse engineering retail disk assets?

It is only going to get more and more difficult to reverse engineer titles.

 

[baphomet]

Everyone I talked to seem to think that the prototypes were from a PC or data backup and not a cart. You would think an image of the cart would have turned up by this point. Even Wiki says it was compiled from the source code I know it may not seem like a big deal, but finding a source archive versus finding a ROM cart is a huge difference really.

Just goes to show how little actually escapes Nintendo's fortress. Most things that have shown up have been from outsides sources like translation teams and such. What I wouldn't give to just see some of the things in their vault.

 

[Borman]

Just goes to show how little actually escapes Nintendo's fortress. Most things that have shown up have been from outsides sources like translation teams and such. What I wouldn't give to just see some of the things in their vault.

Just gotta hope that Nintendo does a good job at it, we don't really hear all that much for better or for worse. It seems like they had their source codes still as of the GBA anyway, but most of what Nintendo has been doing lately is emulation. Which is why I was happy to be able to get the couple of RARE titles out there, despite losing so much money

 

[JakOfTheShadows]

Would Thrill Kill for PS1 count? I remember "bootleg" copies of this, but it was never actually released to my knowledge?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Primal Rage II (Arcade)

IIRC, a collector owns the only working pre-alpha board in existence and will not dump it

 

[xelios]

Somewhat... http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/15/hangame-mmo-accidentally-deleted-shut-down-forever/

I remember this. Hilarious.

 

[Frolow]

Primal Rage II (Arcade)

IIRC, a collector owns the only working pre-alpha board in existence and will not dump it

Does the guy have any good reason as to why he won't dump it?

 

[Ty4on]

Time Trax for the Genny is hopefully not lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyEbu8cmMg

 

[Pudge]

There's also digital-only titles that were removed from their market places due to publisher bankruptcy, or license expiration that will never see release again. They're not exactly lost source code, but they're close enough to being lost games.

Those games aren't lost though, at least on Xbox. People who bought them can still download them, and if you go to the "usual places", they still exist there as well.

 

[Yawnier]

Somewhat... http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/15/hangame-mmo-accidentally-deleted-shut-down-forever/

Oh man, if I were invested into a MMO that I put a bunch of time and money into and something like this happened, I would be damn pissed.

 

[GulAtiCa]

Original Prince of Persia source code was lost until recently I believe.

 

[friday]

Has anyone mentioned The Crossing yet? It was going to be Arkane's attempt to fuse single player and multipayer into a cohesive FPS experience. It was put on hold after they ran out of development money and is now considered cancelled. I guess it was never really far enough along in development to be considered lost, but it is still an interesting story. Apparently they have a playable build that is shown to new employees.

 

[Tokubetsu]

i dont know if it counts, but the game "XIII" cannot be bought online (at least digitally) anymore... indefinitely.

It's still on GoG servers though if you already bought it, you can redl it anytime. You just can't purchase it anymore. Still a strange situation.

 

[ElectricThunder]

On the PC, there is more of this than probably anywhere when you factor it in globally---hell, the likes of MegaUpload getting zapped likely added quite a bit. With version control software and remote storage solutions only recently getting better situated, a downright depressing amount of titles small and otherwise are quite likely lost to time outside of some freak accidents.

The emu/FPGA/generic emulation/VHDL/romhacking/fantrans/etc scene on top of various other low level and Assembly sorcery beget projects are doing better than ever but still have a long way to go in terms of comprehensive scope and accuracy. The solution will ultimately boil down to a riddle of software cloaked in a riddle of hardware---and the answers to each are still being hashed out by the few sharp folks that are thankfully taking a mind to it.

Gaming on the whole should pray to not ultimately allow a loss on the level of The Burning of the Red Lotus Monastery in terms of cultural loss---if the amount of work that went into this and has 99% been utterly lost doesn't chill you to your very core then I don't know what to tell you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_of_the_Red_Lotus_Temple

 

[t26]

Does the guy have any good reason as to why he won't dump it?

Because it makes his collection worth less if he is not the only person to own it.

 

[IHaveIce]

Jeez no one even mentioned:

Oh man this crazy story again lol.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

The best example? Too Human.

After the failure of Silicon Knight in suing Epic, they have to permanently erase Too Human source code and actually destroy the copies that haven't been sold off.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

The best example? Too Human.

After the failure of Silicon Knight in suing Epic, they have to permanently erase Too Human source code and actually destroy the copies that haven't been sold off.

Wow, I did not know that erasing the source code was part of the lawsuit. I wonder Dennis Dyack secretly kept that source code and is just waiting to release when he dies.

 

[RedSwirl]

I made a thread about finished games that never saw release. There's also digital-only titles that were removed from their market places due to publisher bankruptcy, or license expiration that will never see release again. They're not exactly lost source code, but they're close enough to being lost games.

But even those aren't TOTALLY lost. People who bought those games can still re-download them, so the data is probably still sitting on those servers in some form. Theoretically someone could ferret that away, or a customer who can still download the game might figure out how to reverse engineer the console DRM off of it. That would be even easier in the case of a digital PC game that's been discontinued.

Wasn't the original FF VII PSX source code (minus the assets) gone? So Eidos had to hack together the PC version based on an older version of the sources, which resulted in a messy port.

Same thing happened to Silent Hill 2 and 3.

 

[dog$]

http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2012-a-year-in-mame/

Something like this might go to show how much there is out there which is years/decades old and has yet to be even emulated.

I found it to be an interesting read regardless.

Japanese companies are notorious for losing code. I think it would take less time to compile a list of Japanese games for which the code is preserved.

 

[SnowTeeth]

Wing Commander 2 for the SNES?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

There's probably a fair bit of sattelaview content that nobody has anymore, except perhaps nintendo.

 

[Easy_D]

Wasn't the original FF VII PSX source code (minus the assets) gone? So Eidos had to hack together the PC version based on an older version of the sources, which resulted in a messy port.

So that's why they didn't have access to the soundfonts and why they had to resort to the awful midi interpretation of the soundtrack?

Satellaview games?

I wonder how hard it was to piece together Ancient Stone Tablet, anyone got some links describing the process anywhere?

 

[UncleSporky]

I don't know about FF VII, but Square did lose the source code of FF III (NES).

I'm pretty sure most NES games were written in assembly and to this day you can extract the raw commands from the ROM quite easily. I suppose you'd have to re-label everything, learn which variables were used for what, but it's not like losing the source to a modern game. NES ROMs are raw source, generally unprotected from tampering, only compressed if they really needed the space and the compression routines are out in the open.

 

[SoundLad]

Not sure if this counts, but I have fond memories of playing Super Star Wars PC port around 1995. The PC port was officially cancelled but somehow my dad managed to get his fingers on it at the time.

Good times

 

[nan0]

So that's why they didn't have access to the soundfonts and why they had to resort to the awful midi interpretation of the soundtrack?

Seemingly, there is some more history about the PC port here (PDF, pages 7/8).

 

[Easy_D]

Seemingly, there is some more history about the PC port here (PDF, pages 7/8).

I'm glad my first experience with FF on PC was 8 and not 7, at least 8 had a somewhat decent port. Waited until I learned of ePSXe before I played 7, found a mint condition copy of it for cheap

FF8 is kind of odd too considering they had the music files set up in a way that allowed for easy modding by fans to replace the instruments to their PSX counterparts.

 

[oneida]

Half-Life (Dreamcast)
Virtua Fighter 3 (Saturn)

These games "exist" to some unknown capacity. Supposedly VF3 was finished.

 

[Celine]

Nintendo shouldn't have Donkey Kong original source code.

 

[Bjoern the Smexy]

Nintendo shouldn't have Donkey Kong original source code.

That's news to me. Why shouldn't they have it?
I think out of all Japanese companies Nintendo might be the one who still has all their source code for all their games.
I could of course be wrong on that one but I know of no Nintendo game that had its source code lost.

 

[Gameboy415]

Satellaview games?

Yeah, especially some of the games that were meant to be played "live" on specific days.
However, the worst part is that even if you track down a cart with one of the games you want, some of them had expiration dates.
Back when I was in Japan, I bought a Satellaview cart on Yahoo Auctions that had "Panel De Pon '98" (an exclusive Tetris Attack variant) on it.
I booted the cart on my Satellaview, clicked on "Panel de Pon '98", and got a message saying "this content has expired" and the game got erased.

Also, there were a bunch of games released for Super Famicom & Game Boy via "Nintendo Power" cart machines in Japan that could only be obtained from in-store kiosks.
The in-store kiosks are long gone so the only way to find a majority of the games is to track down a cart that still has the data saved on it. (a handful of games were re-released as retail games but many are extremely hard-to-find/expensive)

The whole issue of games being "lost" is my biggest fear of games going digital-only.
As companies go out of business and/or lose licenses, games get pulled from digital distribution channels and are effectively lost forever unless you can track down a console that still has them installed.
This has already happened with a few games I was interested in:
-WiiWare - The Magic Obelisk
-PS3/360 - TMNT: Turtles in Time (remake)
-360 - TMNT: The Arcade Game
-360 - OutRun Online Arcade (also PS3 outside the US, I believe)
I was lucky enough to find out about the TMNT games and OutRun being delisted shortly before they got pulled so I grabbed them but I'll probably never get to play The Magic Obelisk.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

There are only a handful of Marble Madness 2 arcade machines in existence and I don't think anyone has managed to copy the ROM from one of them. So I guess once those machines are gone, that will be it.

I don't think I even knew there was a sequel. I suddenly feel empty.

 

[GRW810]

OK, I didn't mean games based on the Lost TV series (which by the way, most overrated TV show of the last decade). I was referring to games in which the source codes have vanished.

Overrated usually translates as "I didn't like it, others shouldn't either."

But on-topic, this is an interesting discussion. Looking forward to the replies.

 

[eso76]

I think i remember reading Sega lost the source code to a few of their titles, including Panzer Dragoon Saga ?

Incredibly late edit: so beaten

 

[Starwolf_UK]

@Gameboy415 Don't forget everything Irem and Donkey Kong Country.

That's news to me. Why shouldn't they have it?

Ikegami Tsushinki were subcontracted to make it and Nintendo modded it without their permission to make another game. There was an out of court agreement reached. There is something on the Japanese wikipedia about it.

Also that Chrontendo guy covers it in one of the episodes.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I wonder if we'll ever see a VC release or whatever of Metal Warriors on the SNES

 

[Borman]

Because it makes his collection worth less if he is not the only person to own it.

I have no problem with that. I just hope he backed it up for himself.

 

[Bergsy]

Sega has lost a few games, according to an ex employee, Archiving wasn't a priority it seems.
I'd love 24 hours in that room though!

http://blogs.sega.com/2008/08/07/the-sega-game-archive/

 

[awm8604]

I've wondered this for a while, thinking along the lines of the lost Doctor Who original television episodes.