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Ars Techniica: Sony will wake a sleeping HDR beast via firmware. Rigby mentioned!
- Thread starter LordOfChaos
- Start date
DJ Lushious
Member
It does, but the article Ars wrote is still incorrect.
Well, Dolby Vision is HDR. It's a much better form of HDR than HDR10, as it carries metadata that tells the HDTV how to display the picture, rather than the other way around.
Your article even reaffirms my original post.
Saint Gregory
Member
I haven't read through the other thread but I can tell you that there's no difference physically between a BD drive and a UHD BD drive, at least not on PC. The encoding between the two formats is different and require specific firmware and decoding licenses to work on PC but that's it. I can't think of a reason it would be different for consoles unless their processors just aren't capable of decoding UHD data.
If the XB1S can do it though...
I agree with this. Arguing with him is fine. Dogpiling is mean and futile. For all his errors Jeff stayed more or less polite, and his maIn "sin" was ignoring contrary evidence.
marlowesghost
Member
It is a physical drive limitation. Please read the quote by Andrew House, or any other engineer on both sides that have said this. So there is a physical difference.
Yes, Dolby Vision is HDR but it is a kind of HDR that not every TV can implement, which is the point I was (poorly) trying to make, lol. My TV doesn't support Dolby Vision, which is why I hope that's not the only kind PS4 will implement because of it potentially being HDMI 1.4.
Also on Vanilla ps4? They only mentioned HDR for ps4.
this is what i said. i never said if you support HDR-10 you also support Dolby Vision. i was being very precise.
Reallink
Member
No it doesn't. All the first gen 4KTVs were sold with nothing but 1.4 ports, as well as GPUs. They were even updated to carry 4K/60, but only at 4:2:0.
Agreed.
Discuss and argue the topic at hand like adults. If you can't or wont, then stay out of it.
family_guy
Member
HDR and 4k are hand in hand as far as streaming is concerned. If your system doesn't have HDCP 2.2, which the PS4 doesn't, then you won't get the 4k stream. If you don't get the 4k stream, you won't get the HDR.
Agreed. And on a personal note, I admire Jeff's passion even if I can't always follow his logic.
I've updated the article to get the facts straight: that Dolby Vision only requires HDMI 1.4b. HDR10 does require HDMI 2.0a, on the other hand, even if it's only supplying a small amount of metadata to enable the transfer of specific color-space data.
Really, we'd love to see Sony come out and comment at greater length about what's going on here and what the firmware update is and isn't doing to the hardware that has already shipped in OG PS4s. Until then, we're stuck with guesswork and cross-referencing information that's already out there on the webs.
Thanks for pounding away at this topic, GAF. Very interesting stuff.
I'll ask our editors to rename the site Ars Techniica, stay tuned.
Really, we'd love to see Sony come out and comment at greater length about what's going on here and what the firmware update is and isn't doing to the hardware that has already shipped in OG PS4s. Until then, we're stuck with guesswork and cross-referencing information that's already out there on the webs.
Thanks for pounding away at this topic, GAF. Very interesting stuff.
I'll ask our editors to rename the site Ars Techniica, stay tuned.
By "something" you meant the TV itself, and I assumed you meant the PS4 upgrade that's coming. So there was a little bit of confusion there, my bad.
If the PS4 HDR update supports only Dolby Vision, folks that have a 4k TV that supports HDR-10 only are out of luck.
EDIT: Just saw what you posted, so HDR-10 it is.
ethomaz
Banned
Dolby Vision needs dedicated hardware, no? I'm sure PS4 didn't have it.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
That's what happens when people jump on a bandwagon.
Not really. Despite the fact that he was talking about UHD playback, most people said it wasn't technically feasible... So then it became about him explaining why the controller for PS4 could be updated via software to 2.0 and a lot of people were dicks and should apologize because they were wrong and he was right. Its very simple.
The other crux of his argument was that the optical drive would be physically able to read the discs, and I am pretty sure he is right about that too, but I am no expert.
30yearsofhurt
Member
I never doubt Jeff. I just don't understand him 90% of the time either.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
No he wasn't, in any way.
Adam Tyner
Member
So the core premise of his argument about Ultra HD Blu-ray support in the launch consoles is incorrect, and he's also completely off-base about critical pieces and parts (in particular, the optical drive and HEVC decoding on the scale that UHD BD requires ). How is he right, again? What is there to apologize for? HDR, HDMI 2.0a, and even UHD streaming weren't even the primary points of contention!
Why do you think he's right about that? Sony and Microsoft both say otherwise about their launch consoles.
I'm not 100% sure, I only know that my TV doesn't support Dolby Vision so I was worried. LOL
As far as I know it's a process like HDR10, only it goes about it a different way. It's apparently higher quality since it uses 12 bit instead of 10.
As someone that doesn't know a whole lot about Dolby Vision, I wonder if they didn't want to splurge for the license to use it.
marlowesghost
Member
They cannot physically read the discs. How many times does this need to be stated?
Here: http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/09/08/ps4-pro-the-ultimate-faq/
thats the official FAQ for the ps4 pro, talking about how the disc drive cant read it.
Here: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...o-our-approach-isnt-reactive-this-time-around
That's Andrew House talking about the same thing.
Yes he was the HDMI has been updated to support HDR which is something that you need HDMI 2.0 to do & that's also one of the things that was holding back 4K playback but now the only thing holding back 4K media is security & licences.
marlowesghost
Member
No. No. No. What's holding back 4k media is the drive. Here, from the Sony FAQ.
"No, PS4 Pros internal Blu-ray drive does not support the new Ultra 4K Blu-ray Disc format. It supports the same Blu-ray Disc specs as the standard PS4"
I said media not Blu-ray.
Also they are basically the same drives but need firmware updates & to pay a fee for use.
marlowesghost
Member
No they are not basically the same drive.
And here's Andrew House refuting your firmware theory.
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...o-our-approach-isnt-reactive-this-time-around
dr_rus
Member
...What?
HDR10 is 10 bits per channel which means that it's 30 bits per pixel instead of 24. HDMI 1.4 is able to support 4096×2160p/30 Hz with 24 bits color, supporting 30 bits in 1080p/30 and even 60 should not be a problem.
The reason there are no 1.4a with official HDR metadata support is because new features aren't being back ported into a previous version of the standard usually. Technically nothing prevents 1.4a with HDR support in 1080p from being a thing, and this is most likely just how Sony will implement HDR on the OG PS4 - by mixing the HDR metadata into the data stream sent to HDMI. I have some doubts on this being even possible though so I'll wait till I see it.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
HAIL JEFF
Screen the detractors!
Screen the detractors!
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
thelastword
Banned
Why would it not enable True HDR, it's just conjecture on your part, even when Sony said it will be a thing next week. It's already been said that HDR requires HDMI 2.0a, so Jeff was on track, that's for sure.
The amount of drivebys and disrespectful posts he receives has always been unsightly, I try to complement his level headedness, politeness and the effort he put into his posts in said threads, but at least he got some form of redemption/ recognition from all the vitriol.
I believe the current drive can support UHD media as well, but that may be opening a can of worms for several other parties involved, so perhaps it's best to leave UHD playback out till the PS5 when there will be mass adoption of 4k screens. Till then, let some of these manufacturers sell their brand spanking new UHD players........
It's also worth noting that Sony would have figures on UHD sales and 4k resolution screen sales against 4k streaming services and decided they could forego UHD playback for another two to three years.
The only thing I would like on top of the HDR patch, is for the vanilla PS4 to support a 4k XMB/UI and to scale it's 1080p games to 4k.
Adam Tyner
Member
Why?
It's kind of funny that you "grrr" at someone for their conjecture and not taking Sony's word at face value, and yet you don't take them at their word about the optical drive being incapable. Andrew House has said it's not possible with any sort of firmware update. Masayasu Ito said the same last year. It's unambiguously stated in the FAQ for the Pro on playstation.com that the drive isn't capable. It's a different console, I know, but several folks from Microsoft said that the optical drive in the launch Xbox One physically isn't capable of playing UHD BDs either.
I'm curious what compelling evidence there is to suggest otherwise.
Beyond the drive, there's also the matter of HEVC decoding at the levels that Ultra HD Blu-ray demands. Folks in a position to know at Microsoft and Sony have both said that their companies' launch consoles do not have what it takes to handle those demands. Perhaps Jeff is right about HDCP 2.2 being able to be implemented with a firmware update, but that's very much in the realm of speculation right now.
LordOfChaos
Member
What indicates this? Didn't IHS supply estimate the BD drives they use save around $15 over that required for a UHD drive?
Yep.
As I said in the other thread, people are just: HDR + firmware = Rigby am right!
Anyone that actually followed the thread knows that his main thing was about how the PS4 and Xbox One were released years ago ready to play UHD and 4K Blurays and was just a matter of a firmware upgrade.
That, hasn't happened. Heck, Microsoft released a new console for that.
old manatee
Banned
jeff_rigby is like Edward Snowden. He really shocked people out of complacency. It's about time he got some recognition for his work.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Not really a "wow". No playback device on the market supports DV.
100% truth. Also- HDCP 2.2 is required by Netflix for 4K/HDR playback. So, unless the HDMI port in existing PS4's is upgraded to support it, you'll likely only see HDR support for games. More precisely: ~1080p games being scaled to 4K on output in order to add the HDR10 metadata. Nothing to sneeze at, but not a huge development. Truth is, if you have a 4K set with HDR, you'll really want to get a PS4Pro ASAP anyway.
I'm just saying wait until we hear what they're actually doing before jumping to conclusions. They announced that it will support HDR without any mention of which spec of HDR it will actually support. HDR10? Dolby vision? Some proprietary solution for their TV sets?
People are still incredibly desperate to believe Rigby was right. That's my only problem.
Every single thing people quote Rigby for getting "right", was something that literally no one was disputing with him in his many threads.
The problem was him trying to say that BECAUSE of those things, these OTHER things also are GOING to happen, it's an EVENTUALITY, and FACT, and I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY.
That's how a Jeff Rigby thread goes. He connects a bunch of unrelated dots then claims a theory as fact.
The PS4 and the PS4 Pro will continue to not support UHD 4K Bluray. That was the main thrust of Jeff argument, and literally what everything else was building towards. All the little bits and pieces, that people weren't even denying, aren't adding up to the grand reveal he was promising people.
Jeff wasn't right.
Every single thing people quote Rigby for getting "right", was something that literally no one was disputing with him in his many threads.
The problem was him trying to say that BECAUSE of those things, these OTHER things also are GOING to happen, it's an EVENTUALITY, and FACT, and I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY.
That's how a Jeff Rigby thread goes. He connects a bunch of unrelated dots then claims a theory as fact.
The PS4 and the PS4 Pro will continue to not support UHD 4K Bluray. That was the main thrust of Jeff argument, and literally what everything else was building towards. All the little bits and pieces, that people weren't even denying, aren't adding up to the grand reveal he was promising people.
Jeff wasn't right.
Latvian Hitman
Member
There are no proprietary HDR solutions and there are no Dolby Vision enabled playback devices on the market. It'll be HDR10, like the PS4Pro.
He was right about the HDMI port being software upgradeable. He was wrong about the BD drive being software upgradeable. He was wrong about PS4 being capable of UHD BD playback.
So, he had it partly right, mostly wrong.
Well, that depends on what types of content existing PS4's are able to provide HDR support for. Right now, the only thing you can count on is that games with HDR support will be able to be upscaled by the PS4 to an HDMI 2.0a-compliant signal and sent to an existing UHD TV. We don't know whether the HDMI software upgrade will include HDCP 2.2 support, which would be required for Netflix 4K/HDR playback, and for Amazon, Vudu and the other usual suspects if they make updated apps down the road.
LordOfChaos
Member
Wrong about UHD, but his line of reasoning about the chipset in the PS4 supporting HDMI 2.0 was somewhere in the right province of interest. If Ars is right, which also sounds like guesswork though. Partial props if true.
If it can't be upgraded to the HDMI 2.0 spec, I'm not sure what Sony is advertising with HDR without the new colour space. Just software HDR like games had for over a decade?
(Oh, second last comment on Ars right now is Jeff. Did I point you to it?)
I don't think there was much argument over the PS4 having a custom HDMI chipset that was probably programmable for new formats and could handle a higher bandwidth. I don't recall much dispute over that (there's always some), as it's almost exactly what Sony did with the PS3 and 3D support. I'd give him some credit for being right about that, but it's not a major area of vindication.
The main problem areas were HDCP 2.2 copy protection and UHD triple-layer disc support from the drive. HDCP 2.2 is required for pretty much any Hollywood streaming service at 4K, so if Netflix and/or Amazon or even Sony's own streaming service supports 4K HDR on normal PS4s I'd say Jeff was half right.
But Sony seemed pretty clear Netflix 4K and Youtube 4K were just for Pro, so I wouldn't be surprised if this update was just so Sony could distribute demo clips of Pro games.
Adam Tyner
Member
...and HEVC decoding at Ultra HD Blu-ray resolution/bitrates. Folks from Sony and Microsoft have both pointed to this as one of the reasons that UHD BD playback isn't possible in the launch consoles.
Sorry, forgot that one, despite posting that quote from the VLC developer saying original Xbox One would get software support for HEVC, with only the S having hardware for it.
So three areas of contention, Netflix 4K HDR would only clear up one of them if I'm remembering everything.
edit: I strongly suspect (apparently I'm the only one reading open source licenses in the beta) the PS4's media player will get an update when 4.0 hits, so if it supports HEVC we can see what kind of bitrates it'll take.