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[speculawyer]

I've still yet to hear someone explain how they manage to maintain the moral high ground by cheating and lying about it.

I think I could imagine some scenarios.


For example, what if one spouse gets early onset alzheimer's and pretty much becomes non functional while the other spouse is still fine and employed with a good healthcare program for the couple. Now perhaps it would be ethically OK for that spouse to have an affair with someone else without divorcing the Alzheimer's victim so that the Alzheimer's victim still gets good healthcare.


If it was me as the Alzheimer's victim, I couldn't fault my spouse for having an affair while I'm off in la-la land.

 

[Ayt]

If their name/email is on the list, and their significant other is concerned, the SO can ask them about it.

If the "accused" has nothing to hide, then there is nothing to worry about. They would have no posts or history on the site. If it turns out you have a post history on the site, or some sort of interaction history, well... where there's smoke, there's fire.

There is nothing wrong with investigation.

What if friends, family, or coworkers search the site and find an email that wasn't actually used by the person but was instead used on a burner account? Rumors like that can do serious harm to someone's reputation, yet they would be completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

We've already had people in this thread gleefully searching email of people they know. I highly doubt people like that are going to put much effort into finding out if cheating actually happened because in the end they really don't care. They just want to be able to sit smugly in judgement.

 

[Captin Quacker]

He didn't 17 years ago. Here, here's the original.

A and B are married for 17 years. For all intents and purposes, they're very happy together. A has a drastic surgery that changes exactly how sex is for them, but ONLY sex. A can still be "close" for lack of a better term. But not only can A now not have sex but the psychological and physiological impact of the surgeries have basically made A frigid to the point that the thought of sex makes A physically ill. A still craves physical affection otherwise. A and B share financial responsibility overall, but A would have a much harder time than B if they separated. Should B cheat or get divorced or just "suffer"?

Do they know each others feelings on the matter?

If so they could try a more open relationship

 

[Starphoenix]

Nevermind. Dumb musing.

 

[MogCakes]

Nothing like a thread about marriage and infidelity to point out the age of various posters.

Let's set some things straight here. And I don't mean to aim this solely at you mkenyon.

Cheating (the act of): bad, inexcusable.

Cheater (the person): not inherently a terrible person for cheating. Reasons behind their action can be related to from a human perspective.

Cheating, as the verb, is never a good thing. Never. The reasons one may choose to cheat might be relatable to (abusive relationship, spouse lost sex drive/doesn't want sex/can't have sex but doesn't want open relationship or let you go [rock and a hard place, and they are being selfish. Personally I'd divorce here]), but the act of cheating itself, the deceit and the betrayal of trust, are inexcusable. There are alternatives. People act irrationally sure. Doesn't mean we just make exceptions. "Yeah but I wasn't thinking straight! So it's okay that I cheated". "My spouse didn't give me the attention I wanted so it's okay that I cheated". "My spouse abuses me so it's okay that I cheated instead of seeking help". Yeah no. Does that mean, since the act is inexcusable, that the cheater is a horrible person? No. Often times they are far from it, and made a bad choice. Humans do that. The act itself is still a terrible thing and the cheater making excuses like "but neglect!" "but abuse!" "but disability!" "but child!" come off as attempts to justify their deceit. And it comes as no surprise that every excuse fails to take into account their partner's feelings.

There is no moral high ground. There's just an understanding that every situation is different, and not all relationships are healthy. Not all relationships have two people working really hard at them.

(...)

Nah, you're misunderstanding. They're not saying, "It was morally okay for me to do this." It's more like, "You can understand, as one human to the next, why I would make a decision like that."

I dislike the disingenuous reasoning put forth, that because we are human and make mistakes, that cheating should sit at the same level of reverence as being a faithful partner. Bullshit. Deceit and betrayal are never okay in a relationship. Few things are black and white in the world, but this is one of them. You as the person who lied, betrayed, and deceived, are not a bad person just because you cheated, but neither are you fit to call yourself your partner's equal. From there any decision made by your partner is fair game and you have no say; patch or split. If you are going to make the decision to cheat, perhaps understand first that you are willing to bear the burden of making an immoral decision, rather than attempt mental gymnastics to turn cheating into a moral grey. Cheating is not a moral grey.

If you're reading this cybrwzrd, I hope you find some measure of peace in your life after your ordeal is over.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Let's say in both cases, the person not "getting any" went ahead and cheated. Then what? Is there just a judgement of "you're bad, period"? Or is there more to the thought?

Here's another twist - my family situation is the second one (she's frigid but wants cuddling, basically). She says she won't have sex with her husband because she gets nauseated thinking about it. She's said that if he cheats, she's going to be pissed. They both financially support each other and I don't think either could make it on their own. (So for all intents and purposes, divorce wouldn't be an option.) Would it be better if he cheated but didn't tell her or cheated openly knowing that she has no real recourse? Assuming he's going to go out and do something, regardless.

Well... Yes. If you submit to hormonal impulses that violate the trust of people you care about, not to mention suddenly necessitate grand scale lying that will ripple outwards through their lives, then yes, you are a bad person who has traded a moment of physical pleasure for wide damage to your family.

In the second case, there's this thing called 'Separation' that may suit them until they're ready to move forward with the divorce.

The bottom line here is that these people should have had these conversations before they were even married. Moreover, they should never say 'I won't give you what you need, and I also won't allow you to seek recourse. You must suffer.', because that's not love, dude. Both A and B are doing it here, one with sex, the other with fidelity.

 

[Oersted]

Having an account on a cheater site doesn't mean you cheated.

Having an account on a cheater site doesn't mean you lost your right of privacy.

On a site dedicated to infidelity.

Doesn't exactly inspire trust does it?

What made you think that this is relevant?

 

[NullPointer]

What made you think that this is relevant?

That people put their trust in a site that's based upon breaking trusts means those people really aren't entitled to jack. They left their common sense at the door when they signed up to the site.

 

[Oersted]

That people put their trust in a site that's based upon breaking trusts means those people really aren't entitled to jack. They left their common sense at the door when they signed up to the site.

Did you come from a wrong conclusion to another? Being on such a site doesn't mean you cheat and doesn't make anyone entitled to go against your privacy.

 

[StoOgE]

That people put their trust in a site that's based upon breaking trusts means those people really aren't entitled to jack. They left their common sense at the door when they signed up to the site.

Or in my case, someone made a burner account, deleted it and now my email is searchable by everyone I know including friends and family.

 

[CountAntonius]

Really don't like cheaters and find the site disgusting but having personal information stolen by hackers is not good.

 

[gatti-man]

Did you come from a wrong conclusion to another? Being on such a site doesn't mean you cheat and doesn't make anyone entitled to go against your privacy.

It means at the very least you are considering it. You're putting yourself out there and everything has a risk. Nothing is private anymore besides your own thoughts. I feel sorry for those people the way I feel sorry for a drunk driver that wrecks their car.

 

[NullPointer]

Did you come from a wrong conclusion to another? Being on such a site doesn't mean you cheat and doesn't make anyone entitled to go against your privacy.

Its purpose built to enable affairs. Its target audience and community is people in committed relationships looking to cheat.

Don't sign up to such a site and then cry foul when your trust is violated.

Or in my case, someone made a burner account, deleted it and now my email is searchable by everyone I know including friends and family.

Now this stuff about burner accounts I'm not following. How is some random person's temp email account linked to you?

 

[StoOgE]

Now this stuff about burner accounts I'm not following. How is someone random person's temp email account linked to you?

Ashley Madison didn't require email verification. So, you could create an account with any email address and access the site.

This is how noreply@microsoft.comis on the list.

My email address is a super simple early beta gmail address that tons of people use. Like I get someone's Dish Bill every month.

 

[NullPointer]

Ashley Madison didn't require email verification. So, you could create an account with any email address and access the site.

This is how noreply@microsoft.com is on the list.

I should've assumed they wouldn't verify emails :/

So, some random person signed up with your email address (what a dick) and you're worried about having to explain yourself? I can see that.

My email address is a super simple early beta gmail address that tons of people use. Like I get someone's Dish Bill every month.

And this just sounds bizarre.

 

[Oersted]

It means at the very least you are considering it. You're putting yourself out there and everything has a risk. Nothing is private anymore besides your own thoughts. I feel sorry for those people the way I feel sorry for a drunk driver that wrecks their car.

No, it does not mean that. And no, it doesn't give anyone the right to fuck your privacy over.

Its purpose built to enable affairs. Its target audience and community is people in committed relationships looking to cheat.

Don't sign up to such a site and then cry foul when your trust is violated.


Now this stuff about burner accounts I'm not following. How is some random person's temp email account linked to you?

Let me repeat it for you. Having an account on the site, doesn't mean you created it/you considered/committed adultery. Even when you created the account to committ adultery, doesn't make it a crime. It is a private matter. All these potential scenarios doesn't make anyone entitled to fuck their privacy over.

 

[BamfMeat]

Well... Yes. If you submit to hormonal impulses that violate the trust of people you care about, not to mention suddenly necessitate grand scale lying that will ripple outwards through their lives, then yes, you are a bad person who has traded a moment of physical pleasure for wide damage to your family.

In the second case, there's this thing called 'Separation' that may suit them until they're ready to move forward with the divorce.

The bottom line here is that these people should have had these conversations before they were even married. Moreover, they should never say 'I won't give you what you need, and I also won't allow you to seek recourse. You must suffer.', because that's not love, dude. Both A and B are doing it here, one with sex, the other with fidelity.

You can't have those conversations 17 and 20+ years earlier. I mean, that's not even a question. Both situations are things that no one would ever even foresee. My family member never in her wildest dreams ever thought "oh I'm going to someday have my uterii (yes, uterii) removed and it's going to cause me to be completely disgusted by sex". That's not something you can plan for.

Also, love is an interesting thing you bring into the equation. Love is a nice thought, but feels are far more complex than that. And as I illustrated - separation (and divorce) isn't an option, for multiple reasons. They can't sustainably live without the others' income. Like, I mean that literally. They're both in their 50s.

I'm not arguing against you so much as I'm showing that, it's not like you can say that one person is at fault and one isn't. In the real life example (17 year one), literally, this is the only issue in their relationship. They're actually a really happy couple otherwise, but since she had her surgery about... oh 3ish years ago, she's become this frigid person. Is she at fault for withholding from him right now and not allowing him to get his needs met? If he were to cheat, does that suddenly make her the good guy and him the bad guy even though she refuses to allow him to meet his needs? Do the roles of "good" and "bad" suddenly now get changed? To me, saying yes to any of those is an extremely simplistic view of a complex situation that doesn't have any real good answers. Or winners, for that matter. No matter which one wins, in the end, they both lose.

I know people want to wad it up and go "Cheaters bad." and on the general, yes I think cheating is bad. But just because something is bad doesn't mean that the actions weren't understandable. Divorce isn't always an option. Separation isn't always an option. In my case, neither would be able to survive. So even if they did "separate" they'd have to still live together to make bills. And I'm not sure in that case which I think would be worse to have to deal with, of all 3 of the options.

 

[old manatee]

What if one person doesn't want to have sex and the other person does and honesty isn't on the table for some reason?

 

[gatti-man]

No, it does not mean that. And no, it doesn't give anyone the right to fuck your privacy over.




Let me repeat it for you. Having an account on the site, doesn't mean you created it/you considered/committed adultery. Even when you created the account to committ adultery, doesn't make it a crime. It is a private matter. All these potential scenarios doesn't make anyone entitled to fuck their privacy over.

I agree it doesn't give anyone the right to intrude on your privacy however there are risks in choices people make.

Honestly Ashley Madison is a paid service right? You're trying to say that someone paying for a service isn't even considering using it? Come on now. That's like me having a Brazzers membership and saying I never intended to watch porn. It's frankly ridiculous.

 

[NullPointer]

Let me repeat it for you. Having an account on the site, doesn't mean you created it/you considered/committed adultery. Even when you created the account to committ adultery, doesn't make it a crime. It is a private matter. All these potential scenarios doesn't make anyone entitled to fuck their privacy over.

Let's hold up a second: I'm not speaking as a lawyer, nor am I charging anybody with a crime, nor advocating that people be charged with a crime. Save those technicalities and entitlements for the courts.

I just can't empathize with those who would willingly sign up for such a site complaining about how they got fucked over when the site itself markets itself as a tool to help those very people fuck others over.

 

[Oersted]

I agree it doesn't give anyone the right to intrude on your privacy however there are risks in choices people make.

Honestly Ashley Madison is a paid service right? You're trying to say that someone paying for a service isn't even considering using it? Come on now. That's like me having a Brazzers membership and saying I never intended to watch porn. It's frankly ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/annehelen/status/633970234731458561?s=09

Also StoOgEs post. And again, even if you considered adultery doesn't make it a public matter.

Let's hold up a second: I'm not speaking as a lawyer, nor am I charging anybody with a crime, nor advocating that people be charged with a crime. Save those technicalities and entitlements for the courts.

I just can't empathize with those who would willingly sign up for such a site complaining about how they got fucked over when the site itself markets itself as a tool to help those very people fuck others over.

Am I right in assuming that you are posting as someone who is disgusted by privacy when it comes down to adultery, even though you have no insight in their private life and even if they actually created the account or considered adultery?

Because you surely sound like it.

 

[MogCakes]

I know people want to wad it up and go "Cheaters bad." and on the general, yes I think cheating is bad. But just because something is bad doesn't mean that the actions weren't understandable. Divorce isn't always an option. Separation isn't always an option. In my case, neither would be able to survive. So even if they did "separate" they'd have to still live together to make bills. And I'm not sure in that case which I think would be worse to have to deal with, of all 3 of the options.

I dislike the disingenuous reasoning put forth, that because we are human and make mistakes, that cheating should sit at the same level of reverence as being a faithful partner. Bullshit. Deceit and betrayal are never okay in a relationship. Few things are black and white in the world, but this is one of them. You as the person who lied, betrayed, and deceived, are not a bad person just because you cheated, but neither are you fit to call yourself your partner's equal. From there any decision made by your partner is fair game and you have no say; patch or split. If you are going to make the decision to cheat, perhaps understand first that you are willing to bear the burden of making an immoral decision, rather than attempt mental gymnastics to turn cheating into a moral grey. Cheating is not a moral grey.

At this point in that situation he either goes behind her back and deceives her to fulfill his sexual needs or he can tell her up front and make no bones about fulfilling his needs outside the marriage since she cannot/will not have sex and isn't open to the idea of an open relationship. If he chooses to cheat, he does so knowing the responsibility of that decision falls on him, and knowing that it is a grievous undermining of trust and an insult to her faith in him. This is assuming they're monogamous.

Even in polyamorous relationships communication is key. The issue with cheating isn't the sex or emotions themselves, it's the lie - sex carries risk of disease and they deserve to know. Emotionally, they deserve to know if you are becoming romantically intimate with someone other than them, because the rules of the relationship were that you were monogamous. If it was an open relationship and both agreed on it, then it wouldn't be cheating in the first place.

It's not black and white, but it isn't rocket science.

 

[StoOgE]

I should've assumed they wouldn't verify emails :/

So, some random person signed up with your email address (what a dick) and you're worried about having to explain yourself? I can see that.


And this just sounds bizarre.

Yeah, guy never pays his bill on time and there isn't an unsubscribe button from the Dish notice.

I've also got a family that sends me photos of their sick mom that won't stop and some guy who owns a yacht in Portugal as part of a co-op.

Thats the tip of the iceberg. Someone was using my email for her Snapchat account a few years ago and I got in a weird war with her resetting her password and trying to message her to get her to change her email.

It's a super pain having an email a lot of people think k is theirs.

It's actually reasonably likely I shut this persons account down at some point in the past as its my go to move to claim non creation and/or delete an account if I didn't set it up.

But AM on top of shit security appears to have never removed anything from their database ever.

 

[Oersted]

snip

Strictly talking about the website, you can't even know if the husband/wife accepted that the SO has an account, or even encouraged it.

 

[MogCakes]

Strictly talking about the website, you can't even know if the husband/wife accepted that the SO has an account, or even encouraged it.

Yeah the ID theft and exposure isn't something I'd wish upon anyone except terrorists. That argument is strictly about cheating and is pretty far removed from the thread topic.

 

[BamfMeat]

At this point in that situation he either goes behind her back and deceives her to fulfill his sexual needs or he can tell her up front and make no bones about fulfilling his needs outside the marriage since she cannot/will not have sex and isn't open to the idea of an open relationship. If he chooses to cheat, he does so knowing the responsibility of that decision falls on him, and knowing that it is a grievous undermining of trust and an insult to her faith in him. This is assuming they're monogamous.

So basically he just has to suffer if he wants to be, we'll say, morally upstanding. I don't see how that's fair, but we'll go with it.

 

[Oersted]

Yeah the ID theft and exposure isn't something I'd wish upon anyone except terrorists. That argument is strictly about cheating and is pretty far removed from the thread topic.

I don't see the point in dumbing terrorist data, esp when non-terrorists can easily become a target these days. But thats a different matter.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Cheaters got exposed.

Cheaters SHOULD be exposed.

I have no problem with this.

Divorce lawyers will make a killing this year.

Regardless of whatever morality debate about cheating this situation may entail, we are talking about very sensitive information being dumped to the public here, including credit card details. So no, exposing this stuff is not a good thing.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Divorce Lawyers : "what a time to be alive" opens champagnes

 

[Uhyve]

Or in my case, someone made a burner account, deleted it and now my email is searchable by everyone I know including friends and family.

Eep. It might be worth downloading the full database and finding the billing information (name/address) for the account associated with your email, I mean, just in case it ever comes back to bite you.

I've got the same issue with gmail, it's an early beta address, so I got my real name @gmail. I've received very personal emails, bills/invoices, confidential business emails, alot of dating sites emails (some pretty weird). A couple of times I've emailed these people to let them know their mistake and nobody ever seems to listen, it's super weird.

Luckily, I don't appear to be on the leaked Ashley Madison database though.

 

[jmizzal]

https://ashleymadisonleakeddata.com/

Punch in the email and well, just pray that your spouse/partner/work friend/your email isn't on it.

This site is down, and other way to check emails?

 

[riotous]

Yeah I've got a FirstLast@gmail address.

Someone keeps signing up to things with my email; like they have a hotmail or something but type gmail into forms. It's like.. accidentally identity borrowing lol.

 

[MogCakes]

So basically he just has to suffer if he wants to be, we'll say, morally upstanding. I don't see how that's fair, but we'll go with it.

I think it's fair. If you're going to deceive and lie to your spouse about such a serious matter as sex (risk of STDs) and intimacy (betrayal of trust and relationship boundaries), then you accept that doing so is a reprehensible and selfish act devoid of moral character. I don't quite see the logic in "I get to deceive my spouse about a very grave matter and be guilt-free, time to eat my cake".

EDIT: your parents' scenario is tough on both of them I'm sure. If he cheats, he knows what he's doing and that he's forfeiting the trust of his wife. He can always tell her what he's going to do, rather than try and take it to his grave. Yes, it will emotionally hurt her and possibly destroy their relationship. Doing the right thing isn't always the easy way out. Cheating would destroy it regardless. The difference is he is being fair to her by telling her his intentions.

 

[Ayt]

Ashley Madison didn't require email verification. So, you could create an account with any email address and access the site.

This is how noreply@microsoft.comis on the list.

My email address is a super simple early beta gmail address that tons of people use. Like I get someone's Dish Bill every month.

The moralists in this thread will conveniently ignore your situation and countless others that are easily imaginable to quench their thirst for justice against people they've never met.

 

[MogCakes]

The moralists in this thread will conveniently ignore your situation and countless others that are easily imaginable to quench their thirst for justice against people they've never met.

Morality of cheating =/= stance on identity theft

 

[Ayt]

Morality of cheating =/= stance on identity theft

How many people in this thread have essentially stated that this is a good thing and that cheaters are getting what is coming to them while ignoring all the potentially innocent people that could be caught up in this mess?

 

[jstevenson]

Ashley Madison didn't require email verification. So, you could create an account with any email address and access the site.

This is how noreply@microsoft.comis on the list.

My email address is a super simple early beta gmail address that tons of people use. Like I get someone's Dish Bill every month.

I'm in the same boat.

Not only that, after searching the DB, there are TWO different accounts under my gmail, one of which was deleted, which allowed someone else to create a new account.

Even funnier, I think the guy in Richmond VA who created the AM account, screwed up his email again today because I got a Gmail notification for a flight from Richmond and the age almost lines up (he shed a few years to be more attractive maybe?)

 

[MHWilliams]

Yeah, guy never pays his bill on time and there isn't an unsubscribe button from the Dish notice.

I've also got a family that sends me photos of their sick mom that won't stop and some guy who owns a yacht in Portugal as part of a co-op.

Thats the tip of the iceberg. Someone was using my email for her Snapchat account a few years ago and I got in a weird war with her resetting her password and trying to message her to get her to change her email.

It's a super pain having an email a lot of people think k is theirs.

It's actually reasonably likely I shut this persons account down at some point in the past as its my go to move to claim non creation and/or delete an account if I didn't set it up.

But AM on top of shit security appears to have never removed anything from their database ever.

That actually happens to me as well. I get emails for around 7 different people, to the point that I have a rough idea of where they live and what they do. Occasionally, I have to react - like when someone wanted to let one of them be the first to know they had a baby - but otherwise, I just see and delete.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

That people put their trust in a site that's based upon breaking trusts means those people really aren't entitled to jack. They left their common sense at the door when they signed up to the site.

Really tired of reading replies like these.

 

[MogCakes]

How many people in this thread have stated that this is a good thing and that cheaters are getting what is coming to them?

A fair few. My point stands though

 

[shadowsdarknes]

On a site dedicated to infidelity.

Doesn't exactly inspire trust does it?

Is this some sort of two wrongs make a right logic?

For the most part, people's dirty laundry does not need to be aired out for everyone to see.
And if my spouse were on there, I sure as hell would not want that information leaked for my friends and family and employers to see.

 

[Menome]

Josh Duggar's confessed to being in the site legitimately:

http://www.duggarfamily.com/2015/8/statements-from-jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-josh-duggar

 

[Korgill]

Yeah, guy never pays his bill on time and there isn't an unsubscribe button from the Dish notice.

I've also got a family that sends me photos of their sick mom that won't stop and some guy who owns a yacht in Portugal as part of a co-op.

Thats the tip of the iceberg. Someone was using my email for her Snapchat account a few years ago and I got in a weird war with her resetting her password and trying to message her to get her to change her email.

It's a super pain having an email a lot of people think k is theirs.

It's actually reasonably likely I shut this persons account down at some point in the past as its my go to move to claim non creation and/or delete an account if I didn't set it up.

But AM on top of shit security appears to have never removed anything from their database ever.

Someone in Germany managed to sign up for PSN on my email somehow and Sony can't / won't fix it. I get emails every time he spends money.

 

[chadskin]

from Reddit, via https://twitter.com/adambkushner/status/634476105416736768

 

[Miles Quaritch]

from Reddit, via https://twitter.com/adambkushner/status/634476105416736768

It's a month old. He apparently already left the country, but he hasn't provided any updates since saying he was leaving.

 

[And_Gignac]

Nothing like a thread about marriage and infidelity to point out the age of various posters.

Yeah. Older people still believe marriage under its current form works, lol.

 

[StylesClash]

So I've never signed up for this site and one of my emails was used...guess I should have changed the password sooner. Luckily my wife isn't crazy and knows that I wouldn't be on that site under any circumstances. I can see a lot of people getting falsely accused due to email fraud.

 

[Tapiozona]

So I've never signed up for this site and one of my emails was used...guess I should have changed the password sooner. Luckily my wife isn't crazy and knows that I wouldn't be on that site under any circumstances. I can see a lot of people getting falsely accused due to email fraud.

So you think someone hacked your email and signed up for Ashley Madison when they could have made a new fake one a million times easier?

The site doesn't require email verification so its more likely that's what happened. Now I'd your name and credit card info is in there then you're fucked.

 

[NoWayOut]

yeah yeah burn these people and their private lifes

Exactly! Gather all the righteous men in the town square, saddle up the high horses and grab the pitchforks! Time for some moral retribution.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Exactly! Gather all the righteous men in the town square, saddle up the high horses and grab the pitchforks! Time for some moral retribution.

Looks like "high horse" is the new "salt" drive-by post.