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[SerTapTap]

I wonder if people in this thread would support legislation of "doom clones" (you know, FPS games) in the mid 90s

Wait... I want to get this right. The game TxK has nothing to do with Atari (they are not publishing it) and they are blocking him to release it on other platforms because it looks like an Tempest game?

It's independently published, and yeah they're basically saying they'd block it because it looks like tempest. Most specifically Tempest 2000 which...surprise surprise, Jeff made. It reminds me of people saying Capcom would/should shut down Mighty No 9 because apparently Inafune does not own his own artstyle

 

[yurinka]

Shitty move, TxK is awesome

 

[Clear]

Sony need to step in and mediate a result for Jeff on this. They already have TxK on Vita, so unless Atari have the stones to step up and try and get it pulled on that platform, they shouldn't say a peep about it being on PS4.

Hopefully giving Llamasoft some funds in the process to get it out on the other platforms.

To be honest, Sony would be mad not to jump in... the positive publicity would justify the cost, not to mention the show of solidarity with Indie devs in general.

 

[Gaogaogao]

TxK works on PSTV so if you want it, get that.

 

[NervousXtian]

Okay...

But who has more of a claim to it?

Minter or "Atari"?

Exactly.

To actual tempest? Atari does.. they own the IP.

Jeff could argue his game doesn't infringe on it, but it's pretty obvious it's a Tempest 2000 remake/clone. Really, even comparing it to the clone-a-thon that is iOS, at least those places switch up the art and whatnot.. that was hardly done here.

..but nice response considering you were wrong about who created Tempest. You'd be wrong claiming that Minter has any rights to the IP.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I'm kind of tangentally involved in this, Jeff let me convert the game to work on Android, Linux, OSX while LS handled PC, VR and PS4 versions. It's been mostly done for a while now. I used to be a coder a while back so it's been great fun having a hobby project to work on. But yeah, right now that work doesn't look like it'll see the light of day.

I've been involved in games for a good while and have a passing understanding of IP law as it relates to videogames and my feeling is they don't have a case with much merit. That said the cost to establish that legally is really high, something they've taken the time to point out in their legal correspondance, which means we are where we are. Pretty sure some more details will come out soon but it's not for me to share tbh.

Probably best to make it clear that I'm not speaking for Llamasoft or even Ruffian, who pay me for my day job, just for myself.

And it all seems hugely wrong to me and could be catastrophic for Llamasoft.

Jeff could start a GoFundMe or Kickstarter (or something similar) for money to hire solicitors?

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

A massive GFB to Atari, the last game I bought from them was dogshit. They're just hating on people with talent.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Go start texting them fuckers on facebook. (https://www.facebook.com/atari)

A couple of people already did..

 

[iapetus]

It's hardly just the artstyle. The game is pretty much a clone of Tempest 2K, with a name that makes it obvious to anyone that that's intentional. And it's done by someone who has previously been paid by Atari to develop the game that it's ripping off for them.

Is it a dick move? Maybe. But it's hardly some crazy abuse of law.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Llame

Was really looking forward to the PS4 version. Thinking I'd better not delete this off my Vita in case it gets pulled off the store.

Real bummer, but I guess I didn't realize they didn't own the IP in the first place considering Minter has basically been remaking Tempest at different angles with different names for like 20 years

Truly a shame, one of my top 5 last year.

 

[stuminus3]

Absolutely deplorable. I don't have the words for how disgusted I am. Jeff doesn't have the money or the clout to fight something like this. Tempest (and Llamasoft) fans were desperate for something like TxK for years. The scumbags calling themselves "Atari" right now really are nothing but patent trolls. Clearly they have no respect for their properties or their fans (or at least, fans of the real Atari). Here's a fucking crazy idea you idiots - how about instead of being total dicks to Tempest fans you help Jeff publish the game as an actual Tempest sequel?

 

[DaBargainHunta]

To actual tempest? Atari does.. they own the IP.

Jeff could argue his game doesn't infringe on it, but it's pretty obvious it's a Tempest 2000 remake/clone. Really, even comparing it to the clone-a-thon that is iOS, at least those places switch up the art and whatnot.. that was hardly done here.

..but nice response considering you were wrong about who created Tempest. You'd be wrong claiming that Minter has any rights to the IP.

I edited my original post to include your correction, so you can stop your little arrogant high on the hog act now. You come across horribly. If Minter is going to get shut down for creating a "clone," half of the video games out there should be shut down as well. It's a ridiculous move from "Atari." At the very least, as someone suggested, "Atari" should have enough business sense to come to an agreement and publish the game themselves, possibly under the Tempest label.

 

[panda-zebra]

And it all seems hugely wrong to me and could be catastrophic for Llamasoft.

This is the bit that really hurts. It's been months and months of effort and now what...?

I'm even sat here worrying what the implications might be on his day to day living, all those beasties need feeding and attention from vets...

ffs, this is just horrible.

 

[border]

In almost any iOS thread there's an untold number of people bemoaning the number of games on the platform that are flagrant clones.

But now that a publisher actually does something about a clone/ripoff, and suddenly Atari is the villain.

I suspect that Atari doesn't really want to block the release of TxK, and that this is just a negotiating tactic to get Minter to give them royalties on the game's sales. Which to me seems a little dumb, since the game isn't going to sell very much anyway. The lawyers will probably cost more than the revenue that this will generate.

 

[hodgy100]

I love TxK but Atari are well within their rights to do this.

 

[Ramza]

It's hardly just the artstyle. The game is pretty much a clone of Tempest 2K, with a name that makes it obvious to anyone that that's intentional. And it's done by someone who has previously been paid by Atari to develop the game that it's ripping off for them.

Is it a dick move? Maybe. But it's hardly some crazy abuse of law.

I kind of agree in all honesty. But couldn't Atari just get in on some sort of deal where they get a certain percent of profits? I mean, they would get money for doing nothing and everyone would be happy.

 

[Peltz]

What are you talking about? They already said no, it's not like they'd just randomly change their mind after seeing people DIDN'T see it as a problem. I'm not saying Atari's fetid corpse will respond, but the last few years have shown companies DO respond to social media campaigns and fan backlash.

Atari stands to lose nothing by not allowing the game to be released.The more demand they see, the higher their bargaining power, and the more they can demand in return for allowing the game to get released.

In contrast, Jeff Minter stands to lose a lot by not having the game released considering he's already invested money in the ports, and is missing out on all of the upside, especially if there is a lot of perceived demand for the ports. If we make a big stink, he may be inclined to give up way more than he was otherwise willing to do in an attempt recoup his costs.

In contrast, if this is perceived as a very quiet release, Jeff Minter's attorneys could probably negotiate a much cheaper deal, and there would be far less potential upside at stake to get in the way of reaching said deal.

P.S. The game is really cool. It's one of my favorite Vita titles. I hope more people get a chance to play it.

 

[Piccoro]

Did they offer TxK on Playstation Plus?
It says "Download" instead of "Buy" in the store... I really should track the games offered through Plus.

 

[epmode]

I wonder if people in this thread would support legislation of "doom clones" (you know, FPS games) in the mid 90s

Legislating against clones is a slippery slope that would have a net negative effect on the industry. Judging from legal precedent over the last few decades, Atari almost certainly wouldn't win this case. They probably realize that, though, and they figure Minter can't afford a proper defense.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

The point is, Atari owns the rights, but they are a bunch of lawyers and not game publishers these days anymore..

It's like rooting for patent trolls.. they may have all the rights, but it does not feel right...

 

[Graphics Horse]

Did they offer TxK on Playstation Plus?
It says "Download" instead of "Buy" in the store... I really should track the games offered through Plus.

yeah, that's how I got it.

 

[Peltz]

Did they offer TxK on Playstation Plus?
It says "Download" instead of "Buy" in the store... I really should track the games offered through Plus.

They did.

 

[MMaRsu]

Wow, that's terrible. I was really looking forward to playing this game on Morpheus.

Bothering Atari on Twitter can't hurt, so feel free to join me:

Gonna do the same. Screw Atari, they havent brought a good game in years

 

[soxinthebox]

Jaguar successor incoming

 

[border]

I wonder if people in this thread would support legislation of "doom clones" (you know, FPS games) in the mid 90s

"Doom clone" was kind of just a catch-all term for FPS games before the term "FPS" came about. Doom clones like Hexen and Rise of the Triad did not steal artwork and design from Doom though -- they had their own unique levels, enemies, and look.

If Minter had made a game with its own style like N2O: Nitrous Oxide and given it a name that wasn't a pretty flagrant reference to Tempest 2K, he would probably not be in this predicament.

These are the hazards of basing your career on someone else's IP.

 

[gazliddon]

Legislating against clones is a slippery slope that would have a net negative effect on the industry. Judging from legal precedent over the last few decades, Atari almost certainly wouldn't win this case. They probably realize that, though, and they figure Minter can't afford a proper defense.

From the papers I've seen that's my reading of the situation.

 

[stuminus3]

Atari stands to lose nothing by not allowing the game to be released.

Not necessarily true.

The thing is Jeff isn't just another random scumbag on the app store ripping off something popular for nothing but a quick buck. His game is a homage to something that just doesn't exist anymore. Tempest fans want it. Atari fans want it. This shambling corpse of a company has just come along and shit on the people who are genuinely passionate about their history. Regardless of what the paperwork says, "Atari" themselves are closer to being like the guys on the app store making clones for a quick buck. It's sickening and if Jeff hangs it up for good after this then it'll be a sad day indeed.

 

[Takao]

"their" game that was originally also made by Jeff Minter? Besides, what the fuck does Atari do except sit on a bunch of IPs and not let anyone use them?
We should also be mad at Hasbro, they own the Atari name now.

Atari has been Infogrames in a mask for like 15 years now.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

leeeeeeak iiiittttt

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I love TxK but Atari are well within their rights to do this.

Pretty much. None of the new versions he's made over the years have really been particularly subtle, and TxK is probably the least so.

I unfortunately have to say in Atari's defense that I can see how this is legitimately confusing because I just assumed all along that he either had the IP or Atari's blessing.

I can't figure if this is just a dick move or something routine they just happened to get around to on a slow day. This certainly doesn't feel like something that's making so much money as to justify bothering, unless they felt impending release on a bunch more platforms finally offered enough opportunity to make a buck to justify legal fees.

 

[mclem]

I wonder if people in this thread would support legislation of "doom clones" (you know, FPS games) in the mid 90s

Tetris clones might be a better example; Doom clones are distinguished by their level design, whereas Tetris and Tempest live more off the gameplay design.

 

[hooijdonk17]

What podcast was it that always ended with, FUCK ATARI?

 

[Kill3r7]

Legislating against clones is a slippery slope that would have a net negative effect on the industry. Judging from legal precedent over the last few decades, Atari almost certainly wouldn't win this case. They probably realize that, though, and they figure Minter can't afford a proper defense.

Minter's case is different since he was a former Atari employee. That said, Minter should fight it.

 

[Deft Beck]

Tweeted at Atari. This is awful.

 

[Remembrance]

Tetris clones might be a better example; Doom clones are distinguished by their level design, whereas Tetris and Tempest live more off the gameplay design.

There's an important recent court case regarding game clones: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=aa54729e-ea71-4520-970c-c0dfa8083fff Showing that, yes, it is possible for a Tetris clone to infringe copyright.

 

[Dicer]

They aren't totally wrong in trying to do this, they just really shouldn't do this...

Support Minter...

 

[GooeyHeat]

Jeff Minter just pointed out on his Twitter that Atari doesn't even have an active trademark for Tempest 2000, which is the main game that he's supposedly infringing.

Interesting, though I'm not a lawyer, so it's probably less relevant than it sounds.

 

[panda-zebra]

Minter's case is different since he was a former Atari employee. That said, Minter should fight it.

Yeah, a former employee who pretty much gave them and their Jaguar the only ounce of credibility it ever had or deserved.

Jeff Minter WAS Tempest 2000. Everything that went beyond Tempest in Tempest 2000 was thanks to one man. He created something really special, for a system that perhaps didn't deserve it and certainly couldn't ever bring it to the attention it deserved, either.

He even had to fight them and put up with their head shaking when they saw it, they didn't have a fucking clue then and this shit-show that calls itself Atari now doesn't have a clue now. They still don't seem to see what the Atari name means to people and they sure as shit don't seem to understand how highly many of the very same people value Jeff Minter... yet they love to pull on the titties of same people when it comes to nostalgia and their half-arsed attempts to play on it with their retroshite.

Keep biting at that hand that feeds, "Atari", surely the last 4 or 5 years have taught you to choose your battles more wisely than this...

 

[mclem]

There's an important recent court case regarding game clones: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=aa54729e-ea71-4520-970c-c0dfa8083fff Showing that, yes, it is possible for a Tetris clone to infringe copyright.

Exactly where the law lies has been back and forth a few times. One where infringement was found that I think was a particular injustice was the case of Crush Roller / Make Trax:

Found to be too close to being a clone of Pac-Man.


It's a tough one, and I've never particularly been comfortable with any solution. On the one hand, I think developers should have the freedom to design as they wish - on the other, though, I'm not comfortable that it's possible to completely rip off a game's design and profit from that; there are games out there that are entirely about the design of the ruleset, with the protectable parts of the game mostly irrelevant.

A good example is Threes and 2048. I don't think 2048 should be endangered - there's a number of differences between it and Threes that mix up the gameplay - but someone who doesn't notice those things might brand it a rip-off. On the other hand, though, 2048 in turn has a myriad of direct clones that just change the presentation (and in some cases not even that!), and that, I take issue with.

 

[NervousXtian]

I edited my original post to include your correction, so you can stop your little arrogant high on the hog act now. You come across horribly. If Minter is going to get shut down for creating a "clone," half of the video games out there should be shut down as well. It's a ridiculous move from "Atari." At the very least, as someone suggested, "Atari" should have enough business sense to come to an agreement and publish the game themselves, possibly under the Tempest label.

It's just I don't feel we should change the narrative because it's Minter and he's a darling of the indie world.

I assumed the whole time he had gotten permission to make TxK.. seems he didn't. Putting Atari in quotes doesn't make them less of a company worthy of protecting IP. Yeah, as a company now, as serious game developers.. they suck.

Yet Minter clearly made Tempest 2000 again, called it TxK.

Here:

Tempest 2000

TxK

Not sure what he expected without permission..

 

[Polioliolio]

What's TxK?

brbusingimagination.gif

 

[Neuromancer]

Sony need to step in and mediate a result for Jeff on this. They already have TxK on Vita, so unless Atari have the stones to step up and try and get it pulled on that platform, they shouldn't say a peep about it being on PS4.

Hopefully giving Llamasoft some funds in the process to get it out on the other platforms.

To be honest, Sony would be mad not to jump in... the positive publicity would justify the cost, not to mention the show of solidarity with Indie devs in general.

This is a really smart idea. Thanks!

@yosp @amboyes @shahidkamal Atari is blocking Jeff Minter's TkX on PS4. Can Sony go to bat for him? Thanks! #freethellama

 

[stuminus3]

Jeff Minter just pointed out on his Twitter that Atari doesn't even have an active trademark for Tempest 2000, which is the main game that he's supposedly infringing.

Interesting, though I'm not a lawyer, so it's probably less relevant than it sounds.

Speaking as a fan (or Atari and Llamasoft), this little nugget is what's important to me. Zombie Atari had no intention of doing anything to respect Tempest and even if they did it'd be some cheap and nasty cash-in to take advantage of scmucks who remember the name from their youth and don't know any better. They've bascially come along and shut down the only chance we - as fans of Atari and fans of Tempest - ever had.

It's just I don't feel we should change the narrative because it's Minter and he's a darling of the indie world

...you're shitting me right? :lol

 

[jooey]

jeff minter's string of good luck continues

 

[Kill3r7]

Yeah, a former employee who pretty much gave them and their Jaguar the only ounce of credibility it ever had or deserved.

Jeff Minter WAS Tempest 2000. Everything that went beyond Tempest in Tempest 2000 was thanks to one man. He created something really special, for a system that perhaps didn't deserve it and certainly couldn't ever bring it to the attention it deserved, either.

He even had to fight them and put up with their head shaking when they saw it, they didn't have a fucking clue then and this shit-show that calls itself Atari now doesn't have a clue now. They still don't seem to see what the Atari name means to people and they sure as shit don't seem to understand how highly many of the very same people value Jeff Minter... yet they love to pull on the titties of same people when it comes to nostalgia and their half-arsed attempts to play on it with their retroshite.

Keep biting at that hand that feeds, "Atari", surely the last 4 or 5 years have taught you to choose your battles more wisely than this...

The problem is that Jeff did all of this while working FOR Atari. The IP is Atari's property and everything you stated only makes the case worse for Jeff. The current Atari is nothing more then your run of the mill IP troll. They are only in it for the money. I know because my law school roommate worked for them for a few years.

 

[Joseph Merrick]

best game on vita. atari can fuck off.

 

[erpg]

So, should I rush to buy it on the Vita just in case they move to take it down as well?

 

[Tain]

Uuuuuuuuuugh. uuuuugh. Ugh.

The DK2 demo is so great. Best thing Minter's done. What a fucking waste.

 

[GooeyHeat]

Yeah, I was wondering if I should buy TxK on the PSN store even though I don't have a Vita or PS TV yet.

Still, if Tempest 2000 is so worthless to the Atari of today that they haven't had an accepted trademark for its name in about 9 years, they really shouldn't be able to cite it as something Jeff Minter is ripping off from them.
I mean, they probably can do exactly that, because copyright law is some serious bullshit, but they shouldn't be able to.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Maybe he should've named it Galactic Alpacas.

Also, somehow not surprised to see people defending that rotten shell of a company called Atari. Litigation over graphic design and gameplay elements is the territory of software patent trolls. "But, but, but, the LAW!"