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Atheist GAF: Your moment of realization
- Thread starter Snuggles
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I didn't say they weren't Christians, but they are a bit ignorant as to exactly what it is their church is about or what it preaches. I don't think they invented the "homosexual-hating" God because they hate homosexuals either. I think they honestly believe that that is what their religion is saying and what it's about.Jintor said:
Either because they're the type of Christians who go on and on about how holy they are but never actually go to church or spend any time reading about or talking with those in the church, or because they really are just completely oblivious.
the realization came from "if your not a christian you gonna burn in hell/torture"
i then started thinking off all the famous and non famous good people who weren't christians around the world and the concept that a god would make them suffer for no reason whatsoever because they didn't "worship" (stroke his/she/its ego)
then you have the types of christians who say "those good people won't go to hell!! as long as your a decent person you go to heaven"
well if being a good person is all thats required "then WTF is the point in being religious in the first place!!!!"
such a clusterfuck
this was as a kid
christianity is a fear based religion
absolutely a disgusting thing
the "worship me or i'll fuck your shit up for enternity!!!!" is such a kind loving god isn't it?
i then started thinking off all the famous and non famous good people who weren't christians around the world and the concept that a god would make them suffer for no reason whatsoever because they didn't "worship" (stroke his/she/its ego)
then you have the types of christians who say "those good people won't go to hell!! as long as your a decent person you go to heaven"
well if being a good person is all thats required "then WTF is the point in being religious in the first place!!!!"
such a clusterfuck
this was as a kid
christianity is a fear based religion
absolutely a disgusting thing
the "worship me or i'll fuck your shit up for enternity!!!!" is such a kind loving god isn't it?
Sunday school. I can't remember if I ever believed it, but I never got on with the self/human-centredness of it. Life is so depressingly cruel for the conscious, and has been for over a hundred million years.
I have no problem at all with the religious though. If it's important to someone and helps them to cope, then that's wonderful. I imagine ignorance is bliss if you're capable.
Reality certainly is depressing if you can't tune it out.
I have no problem at all with the religious though. If it's important to someone and helps them to cope, then that's wonderful. I imagine ignorance is bliss if you're capable.
Reality certainly is depressing if you can't tune it out.
Uh, what?Onny said:
In Christianity, the only thing you can blame God for is for not intervening and stopping it, not for causing it.
It sounds like most people who lose their faith in God lose it the moment something bad happens to them and they figure turning their anger on God for not making everything perfect and "heavenly" for them is the only real answer to their hardship.
This excuse has always seemed pretty dumb to me because it implies ignorance about the church you claim to have followed. I think there are plenty of legit reasons for being indifferent to religion, but "Someone I loved got a disease or died so I decided God must not exist" has always struck me as the most inane.
Dan Yo said:
Ah, alright. The distinction was a little difficult for me to grasp. I don't disagree with you, but I don't entirely agree with you either - I do think that they honestly believe that this is what their religion is saying, but I don't think that Christianity is entirely blameless in this. You have to remember that religion is not an object that just sits there and 'is'. Once interpreted by people, it doesn't stop being Christianity, if you see what I'm saying. So the Christianity that teaches people that homosexuality is a sin is still Christianity, just like the Christianity that says nothing about homosexuality.
What I think that you are arguing is that it is people's misinterpretations of some 'pure' Christianity that causes them to persecute homosexuals, but I believe that there is no such thing as 'pure' Christianity, only many different interpretations of some very strange ideas.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
There was some documentary on the BBC and it said relating to religion that most families just follow the parents religion. I realised nobody was questionining this, as children we are not given a choice.
Religious education as lest should be fair and balanced and then from that you can choose a religion to follow if you even want to.
After that many people on forums kind of filled in a whole load of stuff that to me makes me not belive any of it.
Religious education as lest should be fair and balanced and then from that you can choose a religion to follow if you even want to.
After that many people on forums kind of filled in a whole load of stuff that to me makes me not belive any of it.
So, a question to all of you non-believers....
Would you marry someone that believes in God, or would you only look to get married to someone that shares your beliefs? As I mentioned in a previous post, getting as much pussy as I can is one of my higher goals in life, and limiting myself to those that don't believe in God would jeopardize this goal.
But when it comes to marriage... I haven't given it much thought. I think I would prefer someone that didn't believe as well just for the sake of not having incongruencies when raising children, but I don't think it would be a requisite. Any opinions?
Would you marry someone that believes in God, or would you only look to get married to someone that shares your beliefs? As I mentioned in a previous post, getting as much pussy as I can is one of my higher goals in life, and limiting myself to those that don't believe in God would jeopardize this goal.
But when it comes to marriage... I haven't given it much thought. I think I would prefer someone that didn't believe as well just for the sake of not having incongruencies when raising children, but I don't think it would be a requisite. Any opinions?
Always-honest
Banned
Dan Yo said:
it's so weird to think religion needs to be involved for people to do/ be good. You just need empathy and common sense to understand we all need to get along in some way to make it work. Lots of atheist believe in that we as humanbeings can make things work together. If anything, religions are in the way of that.
iapetus said:
Yeah, my friend's family is in the the same situation. However, I heard that his mother's family prohibited her from marrying his father unless he converts to Catholic. Is there any rule in Catholic that states this? Anyways, they negotiated and decided that their children have to be Catholics instead of him. My friend is still bitching about how he had to attend the Church on Sunday till now.
Monocle
Member
Yeah, yesterday, rereading my post, I thought my Dark Ages comment might have been a mistake. My good old Western Civ professor would have had my hide for that one. In my haste to emphasize religion's abuse of power in that era I made an inaccurate statement, which I now retract.
I'll throw in my 2 cents:
Growing up in Colorado I never really attended church, and belief in god was never really instilled in me. Nevertheless, I became quite religious when I first moved to Oklahoma, and began attending lots of church functions on a regular basis. In retrospect, however, I'm pretty sure this is because I was having a hard time finding my place in a new town, and I needed a place to belong.
I'm pretty sure I still had substantial doubts during this period, but I kept them at bay by thinking "I can't imagine what happens after death" and other similar questions.
Any substantial belief in god was gone by age 17-18, and I haven't seriously considered that god exists for close to 10 years now. I don't think I could possibly believe in god at this point, and I'm at peace with that.
In fact, I've gotten to the point where I find it kind of silly that so many people struggle with it... people sure spend a lot of time worrying about whether a deity exists, when it seems so obvious to me that the vast weight of the evidence is against it. Religion has become so deeply instilled in our culture that the default position is belief in an invisible deity, rather than disbelief. Seems backward to me.
Growing up in Colorado I never really attended church, and belief in god was never really instilled in me. Nevertheless, I became quite religious when I first moved to Oklahoma, and began attending lots of church functions on a regular basis. In retrospect, however, I'm pretty sure this is because I was having a hard time finding my place in a new town, and I needed a place to belong.
I'm pretty sure I still had substantial doubts during this period, but I kept them at bay by thinking "I can't imagine what happens after death" and other similar questions.
Any substantial belief in god was gone by age 17-18, and I haven't seriously considered that god exists for close to 10 years now. I don't think I could possibly believe in god at this point, and I'm at peace with that.
In fact, I've gotten to the point where I find it kind of silly that so many people struggle with it... people sure spend a lot of time worrying about whether a deity exists, when it seems so obvious to me that the vast weight of the evidence is against it. Religion has become so deeply instilled in our culture that the default position is belief in an invisible deity, rather than disbelief. Seems backward to me.
Mango Positive
Member
I was a fairly devout Christian until I was about 18 (15 years ago). It started with a run of bad luck that I first interpreted as God punishing me because I was unworthy of good luck. Then it became God punishing me because he's a world-class ass-clown. Then, I realized that I was just frustrated because there was NO ONE to blame for this bad luck. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't god's fault... just shitty luck.
I was helped along considerably by the hell-fire / creationist / retarded sects of Christianity who were very vocal about their extreme lack of intelligence. I'd always been scientifically minded, so all I had to do was really think about my beliefs to know they were a bit ridiculous. I now wonder how I ever could have been superstitious.
I always wonder how strong a person's faith can be when they mourn the loss of a loved one. Why cry? You'll see them again in paradise! You should be happy for them! I submit that they cry because, deep down, they suspect that they'll never see that person again.
I was helped along considerably by the hell-fire / creationist / retarded sects of Christianity who were very vocal about their extreme lack of intelligence. I'd always been scientifically minded, so all I had to do was really think about my beliefs to know they were a bit ridiculous. I now wonder how I ever could have been superstitious.
I always wonder how strong a person's faith can be when they mourn the loss of a loved one. Why cry? You'll see them again in paradise! You should be happy for them! I submit that they cry because, deep down, they suspect that they'll never see that person again.
I guess my whole life I was really never a strong believer but I did all the middle school church bs. After that my family stopped going. I started to realize that that just about everything in the bible is outdated and bogus. I then realized I didn't need this dependency in my life anymore and my life means a lot more living for myself and not for this guy in the sky who sends me to hell if I do not obey him
Dude Abides
Banned
Dan Yo said:
No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Edit: beaten like an Old Testament slave.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HJrAaGJudwmokeyjoe said:
A very accessible video explaining the fallacy.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
gutter_trash
Banned
my parents were not very good at teaching me anything about Catholicism even though they believe... they are overall pretty secular.
My Dad scorns the institution of the church and is weary of listening to a dude talk.. he says all they care about is collecting money so you don't need them. But he does believe in Jesus
My Dad says, you believe if you want to believe, it's all up to you... it's not some dude in cloth that is going to shape you, all they want is your money anyway.
My Dad scorns the institution of the church and is weary of listening to a dude talk.. he says all they care about is collecting money so you don't need them. But he does believe in Jesus
My Dad says, you believe if you want to believe, it's all up to you... it's not some dude in cloth that is going to shape you, all they want is your money anyway.
the_log_ride
Member
Korey said:
Pretty much this for me...
Spaceman Spiff
Member
Never had a singular moment of realization, per se.
For as far back as I can remember, I've never taken religion or superstition of any kind at all seriously. Most of their claims came across as spurious at best, and oftentimes plainly ridiculous. That being said, I generally don't give a shit what other people believe, so long as they keep it to themselves. Of course, many people often don't, and even worse, use their "faith" as a basis for policy and legislation, and that I have serious problems with.
I suppose a lifelong fascination with science, along with its methods and evidence-based reasoning, made me less susceptible to indoctrination, and reading Sagan, Dennett, and especially Dawkins, among others, only further solidified my lack of belief and made me appreciate the universe around us more than I had thought possible.
If I were to quantify myself on Dawkins' belief scale, I'd be a solid 6 (de-facto atheist).
For as far back as I can remember, I've never taken religion or superstition of any kind at all seriously. Most of their claims came across as spurious at best, and oftentimes plainly ridiculous. That being said, I generally don't give a shit what other people believe, so long as they keep it to themselves. Of course, many people often don't, and even worse, use their "faith" as a basis for policy and legislation, and that I have serious problems with.
I suppose a lifelong fascination with science, along with its methods and evidence-based reasoning, made me less susceptible to indoctrination, and reading Sagan, Dennett, and especially Dawkins, among others, only further solidified my lack of belief and made me appreciate the universe around us more than I had thought possible.
If I were to quantify myself on Dawkins' belief scale, I'd be a solid 6 (de-facto atheist).
Axion22 said:
Oh god, I had to take a "science" class at the Christian Junior High I was sent to. I think it was right after bible class, actually. It's so bizarre to look back at it, our teacher explained to us that intelligent design was the reason for everything and one day he had to cover evolution and he had a smirk on his face and a condescending tone for the entire lesson. I hated it so much there, I ended up getting expelled after my 2nd year.
Christianity is a belief system, not a right of birth. No Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge is a fallacy because not putting sugar on your porridge is not part of the definition of being a Scotsman.Dude Abides said:
Believing that God hates any human being, homosexual or otherwise, is directly at odds with what is taught in the Christian faith about God. Someone who believes that, is truly not following the Christian faith.
When I realized that there was probably no god, I felt a huge burden and weight lift from my heart. All the years of guilt, of being felt as though I was to be judged, that I wasn't ever good enough.
I felt liberated - enthralled. Religious belief in god is a guilt binding tie. I looked to God for forgiveness from guilt, and guilt came back because I believed in God. After I let go of god.. I never looked back. Life hasn't been better than this. No guilt, no god. Learn to forgive yourself, learn that god is probably just a shadow of your mind...
I felt liberated - enthralled. Religious belief in god is a guilt binding tie. I looked to God for forgiveness from guilt, and guilt came back because I believed in God. After I let go of god.. I never looked back. Life hasn't been better than this. No guilt, no god. Learn to forgive yourself, learn that god is probably just a shadow of your mind...
astroturfing
Member
holy shit Himuro, that book sure seems to be pretty powerful! i'm going to start recommending The God Delusion to every religious person i come in contact with. if even one person starts to realize how wrong they are, it will be worth it. the least i can do really.
Dude Abides
Banned
Dan Yo said:
It is not directly at odds with all variants of the Christian faith, and the belief that God loves all people is not a necessary component of the faith. There is plenty of scriptural support for the notion that God hates certain types of people. There are also verses that tend to contradict it, of course, but the Bible's incoherence is neither here nor there. You've simply defined "Christian" so as to exclude people who don't agree with your particular interpretation.
It is not my "interpretation". It is what I was taught in 18 years of growing up in the Christian faith, with devout Christian parents, going to a strict Christian school, and attending Christian mass every week.Dude Abides said:
The only one making up their own interpretations about Christianity is you. And quite a few others in this thread it seems.
Meh, I enjoyed The God Delusion (I prefer Dawkins' other works on science instead), but I found it to be riddled with too many cliched arguments (idea of suffering, pascal's wager, Russell's tea-cup, ect...) to be intellectually engaging. I'd recommend it to someone who has no prior experience countering religion, or to somebody who has never fully thought about the logic of religion, it's good. The End of Faith isn't perfect sure, but it was a hell of a lot more engaging, and it opened up plenty of ideas I hadn't heard of before, as well as illustrating many problems with modern religion. Dawkins spends a lot of time focusing on the past, which is all well and good, but I had that angle covered before going in, so it's more or less a matter of your experience or exposure to religion. Although it could probably be argued that Harris loses a point when he goes off about Eastern spirituality (a point that I understand what he's trying to prove there), but it probably didn't belong in the same context with the book.
soul creator
Member
Dan Yo said:
Mass? What's that? /Protestant
hundreds of Christian denominations seem to disagree with you. About the only things Christians agree on is that "Jesus died and was resurrected". Beyond that, Christians haven't been able to get their story straight for thousands of years now
frankthurk
Member
Dan Yo said:
Most modern Christian faiths follow this, older ones... not so much. And it doesn't prevent that loving god from damning you to an eternity of suffering anyway... potentially for something like homosexuality.
Dude Abides
Banned
Dan Yo said:
None of that gives you the power to decide who is a Christian and who is not. This is not complicated. It's a matter of interpretation of ambiguous text and your assertion that your particular interpretation is the only true one does not make it so.
Trent Strong
Banned
Extollere said:
Agreed. The God Delusion feels like Atheism 101. Not much to sink your teeth into. Dawkins even makes a couple of fallacious arguments in it.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...fai=CSnFlV1d0TLe8IqmsoASXj5ztDwAAAKoEBU_QNGI4
Click on any you choose.
Click on any you choose.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Dan Yo said:
That first paragraph is fantastic.
Dan Yo said:
You do realize christianity comes in all sorts of flavors, don't you? They're called "denominations". What's the difference between a baptist and a presbyterian? What happens when different believers have different interpretations of something like, for example, the biblical "hell"? Is it really fire and brimstone or just separation from god?
You're incredibly naive in this thread.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
RE: The God Delusion
One thing about Dawkins' book that was very unsatisfying to me is, right off the bat, he dismisses pantheism... a kind of "all is one", "god is the universe" perspective. While most religious believers are fairly literal-minded about their god, as some sort of giant space daddy with many demands, to me this always seemed the corrupt version of what God is originally about in the mind of each religious founder or mystic. One can never pass on any grander concept of God to a new generation, it can only be understood by the child as a kind of ultra-powerful Santa Claus who lives in the sky. The collection of fables that were designed to point at the original concept eventually become dumbed down into "this book God wrote".
I think TGD glosses over pantheism because most atheists are just as much fundamentalist about any concept of God as the religious fundamentalists are.... and also because in a pantheistic conception of God, there is really nothing to test. Dawkins would have no points of the theory to attack.
A space daddy god lives "up there", and is supposed to occasionally rearrange things here on earth to suit his will. Dawkins can therefore look how how things have developed and say "there are no instances in nature where it looks like any deity re-arranged things". In pantheism, however, God is the universe. There's nothing really to say. No point to attack... no conflict with science at all.
So I don't blame Dawkins in the slightest for being unable to address this... but in my opinion TGD doesn't really close the book on God at all. It certainly attacks the way in which most of the planet is religious, and it attacks the Abrahamic religions as we know them today.... But the concept of god as expressed by mystics is not addressed at all, and these are the people who actually try to experience the divine through direct experience: Christian Franciscan monks, Muslim Sufis, Buddhists, Hindu yogis, lay meditatiors, experimenters in psychadelic drugs, etc. Every other religious person just heard some stories and read some books.
I just think it would be very interesting to see a discussion or criticism of this type of pantheism which, IMO, is how theism would actually work if there was truth to it.
One thing about Dawkins' book that was very unsatisfying to me is, right off the bat, he dismisses pantheism... a kind of "all is one", "god is the universe" perspective. While most religious believers are fairly literal-minded about their god, as some sort of giant space daddy with many demands, to me this always seemed the corrupt version of what God is originally about in the mind of each religious founder or mystic. One can never pass on any grander concept of God to a new generation, it can only be understood by the child as a kind of ultra-powerful Santa Claus who lives in the sky. The collection of fables that were designed to point at the original concept eventually become dumbed down into "this book God wrote".
I think TGD glosses over pantheism because most atheists are just as much fundamentalist about any concept of God as the religious fundamentalists are.... and also because in a pantheistic conception of God, there is really nothing to test. Dawkins would have no points of the theory to attack.
A space daddy god lives "up there", and is supposed to occasionally rearrange things here on earth to suit his will. Dawkins can therefore look how how things have developed and say "there are no instances in nature where it looks like any deity re-arranged things". In pantheism, however, God is the universe. There's nothing really to say. No point to attack... no conflict with science at all.
So I don't blame Dawkins in the slightest for being unable to address this... but in my opinion TGD doesn't really close the book on God at all. It certainly attacks the way in which most of the planet is religious, and it attacks the Abrahamic religions as we know them today.... But the concept of god as expressed by mystics is not addressed at all, and these are the people who actually try to experience the divine through direct experience: Christian Franciscan monks, Muslim Sufis, Buddhists, Hindu yogis, lay meditatiors, experimenters in psychadelic drugs, etc. Every other religious person just heard some stories and read some books.
I just think it would be very interesting to see a discussion or criticism of this type of pantheism which, IMO, is how theism would actually work if there was truth to it.
soul creator
Member
BocoDragon said:
I'm not sure what you could really discuss when it comes to pantheism. If "God is the universe", then you've basically just come up with a fancy synonym for the universe. Ok? Sure, if that's how we're defining god, then I'm no longer an atheist, as I believe in the existence of a universe. Hooray?
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