It was always a mostly centrist talking point. It's how they've treated minorities for frickin decades.
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Back to the Center, Democrats (NYT Op-ed)
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It was always a mostly centrist talking point. It's how they've treated minorities for frickin decades.
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
Exactly. Find an actual socialist who can clearly communicate how socialist policies can help the common man and you can make big gains.
Sinfamy
Member
At least for me, they'll never be out of the center so long as they keep taking the same corporate bribes as the Republicans do.
Which is why you don't see the bulk of the party fight for single payer healthcare or campaign finance reform.
The Democrats are obviously a lot better then the GOP, but it's a party of compromises, half measures, and relentless pragmatism.
It's not the party of unions, labour, teachers and blue collar workers it once was. It's a party full of millionaires who take the concerns of themselves and their donors Into consideration long before those of their actual constituents, and the American public knows it, hence few are excited enough to actually go out and vote en mass in the districts that matter.
Because the last time they did so, with promised of fundamental change and political revolution, they got a healthcare plan created by the Heritage Foundation, weak sauce financial regulations a president that said it he should DAPL play out and constantly reached across the aisle when the Republicans spat in his face. Weak.
tearsintherain
Member
Democrats need to explain how typical left ideas are actually moderate and will help conservative voters.
Single payer, universal health care is awesome. Everyone gets healthcare, companies no longer have to pay, people get the same healthcare whether they work 20 hours or 40 or if they just start their own new business, and the government can pay doctors and hospitals directly instead of being micro managed by health care providers. A charismatic, strong leader could EASILY sell that message to working Americans but instead we get clowns who try to pander to healthcare lobbies and can't explain a fucking thing to regular workers.
Reducing defense spending is awesome. We spend way too much money on stupid ass weapons, ISIS isn't going to launch nuclear subs at us. We spend more than the next 19 countries, combined. Much of our defense spending is on pork projects lobbied by state reps who want to send another $1b in useless spending to their state. Again, a charismatic leader could easily send the message of reducing defense spending, focusing on America, not giving a shit about the middle east or protecting Europe from Russia or putting our noses in places it doesn't belong. Spend that money on infrastructure. Which is another huge bullet point.
Its literally a lot of things Trump won the election with (but defense increase instead of cuts), but every democrat (except Sanders I guess) is too afraid to run on that message because they think Americans will reject the platform. They are too stupid to realize that an America-first, take care of our own people, literally Make America Great again message will ALWAYS resonate with voters.
Yes - identity politics, police brutality, trans rights, and immigration are talking points that will always lose. Not necessarily because people hate them, but it sets up an automatic dichotomy of "us vs them", and "us" always wins in the voting booth. Once you win, and get some wins under your belt with healthcare and infrastructure, it will be easy to get some immigration, drug laws, and police reform measures passed. But those are the medicines you apply after everyone gets their candy, you don't lead with the message of "we all suck, time to do the right thing".
I don't have much hope though that a strong democrat candidate will come around that tries to appeal to working middle class folks but instead again tries to cobble together a bizarre coalition of the edges.
Single payer, universal health care is awesome. Everyone gets healthcare, companies no longer have to pay, people get the same healthcare whether they work 20 hours or 40 or if they just start their own new business, and the government can pay doctors and hospitals directly instead of being micro managed by health care providers. A charismatic, strong leader could EASILY sell that message to working Americans but instead we get clowns who try to pander to healthcare lobbies and can't explain a fucking thing to regular workers.
Reducing defense spending is awesome. We spend way too much money on stupid ass weapons, ISIS isn't going to launch nuclear subs at us. We spend more than the next 19 countries, combined. Much of our defense spending is on pork projects lobbied by state reps who want to send another $1b in useless spending to their state. Again, a charismatic leader could easily send the message of reducing defense spending, focusing on America, not giving a shit about the middle east or protecting Europe from Russia or putting our noses in places it doesn't belong. Spend that money on infrastructure. Which is another huge bullet point.
Its literally a lot of things Trump won the election with (but defense increase instead of cuts), but every democrat (except Sanders I guess) is too afraid to run on that message because they think Americans will reject the platform. They are too stupid to realize that an America-first, take care of our own people, literally Make America Great again message will ALWAYS resonate with voters.
Yes - identity politics, police brutality, trans rights, and immigration are talking points that will always lose. Not necessarily because people hate them, but it sets up an automatic dichotomy of "us vs them", and "us" always wins in the voting booth. Once you win, and get some wins under your belt with healthcare and infrastructure, it will be easy to get some immigration, drug laws, and police reform measures passed. But those are the medicines you apply after everyone gets their candy, you don't lead with the message of "we all suck, time to do the right thing".
I don't have much hope though that a strong democrat candidate will come around that tries to appeal to working middle class folks but instead again tries to cobble together a bizarre coalition of the edges.
A large majority of conservative voters don't care about the policies. And this is why everyone you say fails apart, especially the second bold part. The Democratic party is, and has been for nearly 50 years, a coalition based party, not an ideological based one like the Republican party has been. You focus on killing the coalition, you kill the party.
well as long as the right keeps moving right, we'll always have a new center to move towards. We can always afford to be optimistic, we just have to keep moving towards the opposition.
the third way democrats associated with bill clinton and the 80s-90s democratic party has always preached the benefit of being less progressive, less liberal, more moderate, more conservative in order to attract those moderate to conservative voters. It shouldn't be a surprise to see this again. The question is, do they expect to find another Southern Bubba Democrat to carry all of this, and still get the minority vote?
the third way democrats associated with bill clinton and the 80s-90s democratic party has always preached the benefit of being less progressive, less liberal, more moderate, more conservative in order to attract those moderate to conservative voters. It shouldn't be a surprise to see this again. The question is, do they expect to find another Southern Bubba Democrat to carry all of this, and still get the minority vote?
You know, it's so hilarious when you have people talking about how Democrats should drop identity politics if they want to win, when the GOP uses identity politics all the time, which they have used effectively to win a lot. They are more subtle about it, sure, they use dog whistles and rebranded terms, but they're a party of nothing but identity politics at this point. It's amazing to me how blind people are to this.
AuthenticM
Member
great post
A great post devoid of any political reality, probably
If you really want to see what it would be like to drop identity politics would look like for the Democrats, look to Bernie Sanders. Yeah, he's popular now, but despite the myth that the DNC screwed him over in some way, he abandoned minorities to try and appeal to white middle class voters, and he got crushed. And not to just make this another primary thing, he's still doing that now. He may pander here and there to minorities, but all of those town halls with Trump voters and shit is just another way for him to try and court white middle to upper class voters. And it's why, if he runs in 2020 (which I doubt he will), he'll probably lose again in the primaries.
But the majority of those voters are gone, and have been gone for 50 years. They aren't coming back, because it's not about policy. It was never about policy. To drop identity politics is a right-wing poison pill narrative, because it's basically an advocating the death of the Democratic party by betraying its true base.
But the majority of those voters are gone, and have been gone for 50 years. They aren't coming back, because it's not about policy. It was never about policy. To drop identity politics is a right-wing poison pill narrative, because it's basically an advocating the death of the Democratic party by betraying its true base.
They are already at the neoliberal center, which might as well be center right. This writer wants them to go even further to the right i guess....its a dangerous sentiment to hold.
And that goes for the economic issues as well as the social issues. They are pretty much cowards on every front.
And that goes for the economic issues as well as the social issues. They are pretty much cowards on every front.
gutter_trash
Banned
Hillary had the most leftist and most progressive DNC convention in the history of the country. No cigar.
If she would have emulated Bill's economic strategy, she would have done better
If she would have emulated Bill's economic strategy, she would have done better
Oh boy...that really worked out for the people didn't it? I mean deregulating wall street because of bank lobbyists and throwing out tons of economic trading regulations and everything, what a great economic policy that surely would not cause repercussions down the road.
Throwing millions and millions of people forcibly off of welfare roles in the 90s and then claiming he "got people off of welfare" because technically they were not on it anymore by the time he left office was such progressive populist economics, wasn't it?
And that's not even counting the pure revisionism of Hillary Clinton's economic policy proposals which failed twice in presidential campaigns that didn't have a worthy ounce of populism or progressive merit to them so long as they were fully asterisked by the wealthy corporate donor class.
When you have Obama throwing out the punches in 08 with true facts about the Clintons, its pretty bad.
This type of unapologetically neoliberal mindset is exactly what the democrats need to wipe out if they want any chance of winning elections, both in terms of economic policy and social policy.
If you don't stand for anything and have nothing to offer anyone beyond comparisons to the opposition, you should not be in a political office.
"We don't hate black people!"
"And..what do you have to offer them?
"Not a damn thing! Cause they are our firewall and will support us on that measure alone"
I've never understood how people can be so supposedly socially progressive, yet be so blatantly wrong when it comes to actually caring about class warfare and how that affects social classes in general.
Identity and class are two sides of the same coin and must be equally tended to.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Opposition to universal health care
Allying with Israel
Supporting big banks and Wall Street
TPP
Belief that people should pay for college
Bombing the middle east
Support of nuclear weapons
Support of various pipeline projects
It goes on and on. Being not as crazy as the Republicans doesn't change the fact that their politics are still pretty far to the right.
Given how much I've seen centrists/Democrats harp on these same points, it doesn't help my mood to see more of this.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Ah the center, where people stand for nothing and believe compromise is everything. The center is basically conservative lite, where the more fringe conservative shit is shunned but the rest "isn't so bad"
metalslimer
Member
Oh more whining about identity politics.
Is it shunned? Or quietly ignored, like when you are visiting friends and their dog shits right in the middle of the floor while everyone watches?
gutter_trash
Banned
Ok, lose the next election too. It feels good to frame it as standing for your principles, but this is a right wing country and has been for decades. Much better to win with a moderate than lose with a hardliner. The most successful Democrat in my lifetime campaigned on welfare reform.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
A ton of democrats also push for defunding public k-12 schools to fund garbage charter schools.
gutter_trash
Banned
So fuck and abandon the base of the party to appeal to a group that's majority has long since left and consistently voted against thier own interests and will continue to do so until they either die or in such a dire situation that it'll be far, far too late.
Bold move.
And this being a 'right wing country' is irrelevant. We need to push to work to push it to the left, not just submit, tell minorities that have been a key to keeping the party alive for 50 years to go fuck themselves and become indistinguishable from the GOP. The fuck kind of nonsense is that?
ThreePiMatt
Member
When your identity politics revolve around 60% of the population it works.
It sounds like the Labour strategy which lead to them losing hardcore until they finally put a real leftist forth (even though they actively worked against him at every single turn).
But yea, I really appreciate seeing Democrats on this board openly admit that we need to get rid of support for minorities. As one, it really makes me feel better about the Democrats and not at all make me hate them more as I've grown to over the years.
Here's the thing, the GOP advertises on hate/bolstering the fractured ego of idiots who think they've victimized because their victims are standing up asking for basic equal rights. . A smart Democrat would work to appeal to the working class and minorities at once. The people who are in that "60% of the population" who aren't bigoted assholes would support the Democrat more than likely. This, of course, means one must combat the right-wing propaganda and fear-mongering machine in order to cut through some of this trash. And some people cling way too tightly to such garbage because they don't want to admit to the realities of their character and the country at large. But sure, let's just work on utilitarianism and say "well, straight rich white cis people are well off, fuck the rest of the country" and see where that fucking gets us.
*looks at how horrible the country is doing under Trump*
Oh.....we already know where it gets us.....oh.............
titiklabingapat
Member
We lost because not enough of us turned out. It could be that Hillary didn't excite them enough, black people didn't in historic numbers because of no Obama, or because Bernie wasn't the candidate.
We outnumber them. We didn't lose because we were too far to the left.
Get fucked, Mark Penn.
Enjoy being a permanent minority if you abandon us minorities. We *will* stay home if you push us under the bus.
We outnumber them. We didn't lose because we were too far to the left.
Get fucked, Mark Penn.
Enjoy being a permanent minority if you abandon us minorities. We *will* stay home if you push us under the bus.
Glass Shark
Banned
Surely someone has posted this already?
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