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Bethesda doesn't get enough credit for their storytelling.
- Thread starter Berserker976
- Start date
SinShep
Member
When it comes to Bethesda's characters, the initial ideas for them are usually great, but when it comes to developing them there isn't really that much that's special.
The idea of
is great to read, but when I started interacting with them the writing of it isn't anything I think is worth much praise.
The idea of
a Sentribot as the captain of a revolutionary ship with a robot crew
Red Blaster
Member
you didnt actually make argument about why bethesda's focus on groups/organizations constitutes good storytelling--you just stated that it exists. yeah, it certainly does...and?
ZombieSupaStar
Member
New Vegas was done by some of the original Fallout developers (more so 2, than 1) and it used some of the ideas that Black Isle was working for the cancelled Fallout 3 (Codename was Van Buren). Like Ceasers Legion, etc. So for someone who played 1,2, then 3, NV was basically the new hotness of 3, with the guys who did 1 and 2. It was great, and I had hoped Fallout 4 would have built upon it, but it seems like they didn't acknowledge it at all. 4 is fun as an open world, loot stuff, make more stuff game, but the dialogue/quests in 4 are even more linear than 3, which for Fallout as a series was a large part of it. I do enjoy 4 but its basically an open world game with less rpg in it. It has loot, some stats, but mostly open world is the main draw. It slants more towards borderlands now.
Generalpsyduck
Banned
They have bad writing but but amazing lore. You can spend days going through fallout and elder scrolls lore
Agreed. Love their story content.
Gnome Scat
Member
I've never really enjoyed the main story plot, but everything else it pretty incredible. Their writing varies.
CecilRousso
Member
Compared to what other developers?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
No. They actually still get way too much credit for their storytelling. As long as their writting is as bad as it is, all their attempts at story just fall flat for me.
All.
Gonna have to disagree with you.
Oblivion was too drawn out but I finished it.
I never finished fallout 3, had the same problem, but in some ways worse due to the nature of the plot.
Skyrim had the same problem, and the writing sounded like standard the fantasy I've heard all before, never finished it.
New Vegas was decent, but not Bethesda.
Fallout 4 is actually some of the best so far.
Oblivion was too drawn out but I finished it.
I never finished fallout 3, had the same problem, but in some ways worse due to the nature of the plot.
Skyrim had the same problem, and the writing sounded like standard the fantasy I've heard all before, never finished it.
New Vegas was decent, but not Bethesda.
Fallout 4 is actually some of the best so far.
Demoskinos
Member
Yes, and that is one of my real issues. You can just Jack of all Trades everything in Modern Bethesda games. In Morrowind for instance a lot of the faction storylines directly interfered with each other by making you kill of very important NPC's for other questlines.
There were hard alliances and choices you had to make and stick with them.
their games are bad when you break down each thing individually.
When added together, their games are much better than just the sum of their parts. Still though, the basic mechanics aren't much better than a decade ago.
The whole "Quest" system IMO is weird. Random NPC approaches you asking you to kill 4 wild bear/monsters and if you do so he'll reward you. Is this guy just going around asking everyone to do this? It's way too forward and comes off as fake. Would be better story telling if the guy mentioned it in a conversation without immediately propositioning you. You could go check it out on your own, kill the monsters, and then see what happens next vs returning to the guy for your stupid reward.
It's as if in real life, I walk into a store and 3 people each come up to me asking me (another customer) to help them find an item in the store. That sort of thing just doesn't happen quite like that. People are much more private in real life or at least don't immediately proposition you about something unless you first witness their struggle. Why does every NPC automatically assume I'm a some bad-ass hero or that I'm interested in their crap?
When added together, their games are much better than just the sum of their parts. Still though, the basic mechanics aren't much better than a decade ago.
The whole "Quest" system IMO is weird. Random NPC approaches you asking you to kill 4 wild bear/monsters and if you do so he'll reward you. Is this guy just going around asking everyone to do this? It's way too forward and comes off as fake. Would be better story telling if the guy mentioned it in a conversation without immediately propositioning you. You could go check it out on your own, kill the monsters, and then see what happens next vs returning to the guy for your stupid reward.
It's as if in real life, I walk into a store and 3 people each come up to me asking me (another customer) to help them find an item in the store. That sort of thing just doesn't happen quite like that. People are much more private in real life or at least don't immediately proposition you about something unless you first witness their struggle. Why does every NPC automatically assume I'm a some bad-ass hero or that I'm interested in their crap?
RichiRamjag
Member
I think they're good at atmosphere, but I'm not a huge fan of their story-telling. They're good at the little details via terminal, etc, but I don't dig that fantastic level of detail not being expressed via the main story.
CecilRousso
Member
That's not a good answer, and incorrect.
The quest system in Fallout 4 is actually pretty good so far, as far as I have come in the game. Most people have good reasons to welcome you, and ask you for assistance, and those who doesn't, are the ones sending in you on the most hopeless tasks. This is handled so much better then in Skyrim, where everyone just spilled their innermost secrets as soon as you approached. I'm close to 30h in Fallout 4, and so far, that doesnt' happen in this game.
FranXico
Member
Berserker976
Member
I'll try to clarify. Hopefully you've progressed pretty far in Fo4 or otherwise don't really care, because I'll be using an example from later in the game.
Seriously don't click if you care about story beats in Fo4 (although it seems not many of you do).
I joined the Railroad before progressing very far in the main missions or the Brotherhood missions, so it was pretty early on that I did a quest with Glory, a synth fighting for the Railroad. After having experienced that, and gotten to know what the Railroad was about, the Institute was less convincing when they claimed that synths were not people. Even though they had created them, they couldn't fathom them having some sort of sentience. This prompted me to push in my questioning, to find out why the synths had been escaping, and no one at the Institute claimed to know. So after all that I was doing Brotherhood missions when it's revealed Paladin Danse was a synth the whole time.
So, because of my exposure to the Railroad, and finding out that the Institute itself didn't have a reasonable rebuttal to the idea that synths have free will, I approached the Brotherhood mission to track him down differently. That's what I mean by groups affecting the story more than characters.
So, because of my exposure to the Railroad, and finding out that the Institute itself didn't have a reasonable rebuttal to the idea that synths have free will, I approached the Brotherhood mission to track him down differently. That's what I mean by groups affecting the story more than characters.
Dylan Sexbang
Banned
I have mostly just been playing fallout 4 to explore a world, find things and kill things. It's been pretty satisfying to just be thrown into a world, and essentially be a freelancer and just do quests for caps and exploration. I forgot I even had a son.
But I will say, that the quest with Covenant was a pretty decent story and unraveled in a good fashion. I don't want to get invested into the main quest because I just don't give a shit about my son in a post apocalyptic wasteland.
But I will say, that the quest with Covenant was a pretty decent story and unraveled in a good fashion. I don't want to get invested into the main quest because I just don't give a shit about my son in a post apocalyptic wasteland.
CecilRousso
Member
The Covenant quest is really good. I know the different options now, still not certain I picked the right one, and even if it is, it's still uncomfortable.
Dick Justice
Banned
It's interesting to compare how New Vegas and 4 deal with factions.
In New Vegas, you're initially treated as the outsider that you are. As you progress through a faction's quest, they might grow to respect you more, until you're held in high regard by the people in that faction. Or they might end up hating your guts if you happen to, say, set the self-destruct mechanism in their bunker because they're a bunch of assholes.
In 4, each faction is apparently populated with fortune tellers who can see that you're destined for great things from the very first menial task you do for them, and go out of their way to praise the player and essentially massage your ego. Haven't played through the other factions' quests yet, but Garvey almost immediately makes you the leader of the Minutemen because reasons.
So New Vegas seeks to present factions in a believable manner, while 4 seeks to appease the player as much as possible by having the factions bow down to the player from the get go (The Brotherhood is a slight exception, but still egregious that they now accept outsiders because Bethesda desperately wants them to be the good guys).
In New Vegas, you're initially treated as the outsider that you are. As you progress through a faction's quest, they might grow to respect you more, until you're held in high regard by the people in that faction. Or they might end up hating your guts if you happen to, say, set the self-destruct mechanism in their bunker because they're a bunch of assholes.
In 4, each faction is apparently populated with fortune tellers who can see that you're destined for great things from the very first menial task you do for them, and go out of their way to praise the player and essentially massage your ego. Haven't played through the other factions' quests yet, but Garvey almost immediately makes you the leader of the Minutemen because reasons.
So New Vegas seeks to present factions in a believable manner, while 4 seeks to appease the player as much as possible by having the factions bow down to the player from the get go (The Brotherhood is a slight exception, but still egregious that they now accept outsiders because Bethesda desperately wants them to be the good guys).
Berserker976
Member
Well, you're not super wrong about that. Oops.
I summed up why I think it's good at the bottom of post, but the body of the post was admittedly dedicated to arguing that there is a difference, and not why I think the different approach is good.
I think my response to partyphone contains a good example of how they use the technique well. I think their approach is good storytelling because it makes you feel like a part of the world, it puts you in the mindset of someone who is involved in these events. It's true that a lot of the sidequests and dialogue are shallow, but they work towards a larger whole, basically.
kavanf1
Member
How awful of them, to want the player to feel cool and experience every piece of content in the game.
I'm one of those people who doesn't have time for multiple playthroughs of enormous RPGs, so I really like when I can experience the majority of a game in a single playthrough. Bethesda games suit me well in that respect, and I don't think there's anything wrong in them doing it that way.
Eh, just because you enjoy a game and don't mind the writing/storytelling doesn't mean that the writing/storytelling isn't bad (the reverse can be true too...). You also have to account for different styles of writing (not everyone likes the same style) and whether the writing is the focus.
I play almost nothing except RPGs and don't really care what it is (indie, rpgmaker, AAA). I think it's pretty clear that writing isn't the focus of Bethesda's games (or maybe just not Fallout/Elder Scrolls as I actually did enjoy the story in Dishonored - could be a developer thing with Bethesda Game Studios vs Arkane Studios).
The newer Bethesda games aren't anything special and get overshadowed by better writing/dialogue from games like NV, Spiderweb Games (well, I've only played Geneforge 1 - 4), the Shadowrun games or even The Witcher.
Those games actually seem to say the stories are important and do focus on them. The Bethesda games are just about exploring everything, looting everything, and mastering every ability with no downside.
This is pretty much how I feel.
I don't agree with this. Their worlds are fun, I'll give them that, but really really incoherent. Theme parks basically. I feel this is especially true for their Fallouts. I haven't played 4 but from what I've heard it "suffers" from the same 3. Little thought beyond "this looks cool".
User 479360
Banned
I'm not saying my opinion is definitive. It's just that - my opinion. To each their own!
I'm saying that I didn't love New Vegas as much as I loved Fallout 3, and its bugs frustrated me at launch. I still think it's a very good game overall, though.
If Fallout 3 is a ten then New Vegas is an 8.5-9 type of thing.
I'd say they don't get enough criticism, Fallout 4's story is honestly complete shit.
The Fallout 3 DLC was terrible apart from Point Lookout.
I enjoyed all of its DLC, some more than others. Point Lookout and Broken Steel were probably the best.
I honestly think that the dialogue wheel is ass in 4. To me it seem like only 1(rarely 2) choices actually advance the plot while all the others makes you say some try hard witty remark or gives you a plot dump that they could and (and I feel) should have built into the exploration part of the quest. I might be the minority here but I love hunting for answers in games. Like how every item in Dark Souls or all the weapons in Drakengard has a little story that builds the backstory. The closest thing I found to this in 4 was some raider note saying they got wiped out by ghouls.
Goddamn. Rpgmaker is it's own tier.
I think it is definitely a problem. The player does not need to see every single thing created in the world, it should react and shift according to the choices they make. We're talking about RPGs, where devs are trying to build living breathing worlds that feel real and have realistic consequences and reactions. In Bethesda games the world does not react to the way you play the game. Instead the rules bend to the player's will and everything exists in a bubble. Quests are rarely ever related to one another and no one outside of the city guards acknowledge any actions the player does. You end up with a game with no stakes or consequences. Nothing matters because there are no hard choices to be made, no sacrifices to be made in favor of what you deem to be a better choice.
It's funny that this still isn't solved despite New Vegas showing how it should be done. Players who have less time to play games should be praising games like NV that allow so many different paths for the main story and allow you to really tailor things for a unique playthrough. It feels way more unique and handcrafted in that sense, rather than the general and impersonal stories that Bethesda games usually tell.
This is still incredibly relevant in regards to FO4.
Fallout 4's factions run into the same issue as 3: they're just boring! They lean to strong on a moral scale of being either good or bad. Too far few in between. There are some notable outliers in FO4 that remind me of the work done in NV but otherwise everything else seems like baseless filler.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Fucking ouch. If I was to choose a game, never heard or played either one... the one on the left by far would be my go to based on that picture alone.
[Intelligence] I see you're making a humorous jab at Fallout 4's primitive dialogue system.
[Strength] I'll break your neck if you insult New Vegas in any way.
Is that true?
You're right.
[Sneering Imperialist] Savage console peasants deserve nothing but death, declare your allegiance or face the consequences.
Basileus777
Member
The word building in Fallout 4 is actually really poor. Nothing about the environment or societies that exist make much sense in the context that it's been 200 years since the bombs dropped. They do much better with this when it comes to the Elder Scroll games.
It's such a downgrade to go to Fallout 4's main story after New Vegas. You really felt like everything was interconnected and you could choose how to tackle the main story in realistic ways. Want to kill someone and defect to another faction? You could totally do that at nearly any point in the main progression.
In Fallout 4 you're kind of stuck with what's there. Most of the major characters are unkillable and there are certain choices at specific points that matter. Fallout 4 is like the worst case of the annualized thing you see with COD games, where the strengths of the last game made by a different developer are completely ignored. Except this time they had 4 years to do it and still changed nothing.
Vital Tundra
Member
I have always loved New Vegas more then 3, but this image. Damn it kinda puts it into perspective.
That isn't a defense. That is a condemnation (especially considering the implementation).
mercenar1e
Member
I had a hard time getting through Fallout 4 and i am glad that i finished it. Its the worst story i ever sat through this year and the ending sucked.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I can't rob you of your destiny, OP.
Berserker976
Member
It's not.
As hard as it may be for you to believe, there are people that can experience the same thing as you, and form an entirely different opinion on it!
Also, to all the people saying their storytelling is objectively bad, and that I don't know what good storytelling is: Hey, you might be right.
It would be super helpful if you could compile a succinct, objective list of what constitutes good writing. Because otherwise we're just going to be talking in circles.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yuck. Not sounding good to me at all. I never played NV, but after seeing that picture, I am going to probably DL it on Steam. I messed around with FO3 when the GOTY edition went on Steam for $5 or some price like that, but did not get too heavily into it. The story and interactions turned me off.
But NV sounds amazing from that fact sheet alone.
Silly question judging off of Bethesda and their console ineptitude for optimization or performance, but how did New Vegas Ultimate Edition run on the PS3 compared to the train wreck Skyrim?
Psychoward
Banned
Sneering Imperialist + NCR + Rifles = the best lawful neutral Ranger the Mojave Wasteland has ever seen
These issues are applicable to FO3 as well.
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