Grim Fandango has one of the best storylines I've encountered in a game, still to this day.
Dat ending
Manny Calavera said:
Such beautiful writing *swoon*
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Beyond: Two Souls Deserved Better Sales
- Thread starter Imbarkus
- Start date
Grim Fandango has one of the best storylines I've encountered in a game, still to this day.
Dat ending
Such beautiful writing *swoon*
firehawk12
Subete no aware
You can say that about any game, really.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Grim is still the benchmark for adventure game stories.
One is 8 hours long, the other 2. One you can change the outcome, the other not.
I'm not saying you can't still prefer the value, but I'm saying such a comparison isn't 1:1.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
I thoroughly enjoyed Heavy Rain. I loved the tense feeling, like the choices you make really matter, and if you screw up you have to live with the consequences. Yeah the plot twist was extremely stupid but I still enjoyed it as a whole.
I tried the Beyond demo and it just bored me to tears. I didn't care about the characters at all. The supernatural stuff is just stupid. Maybe I'll give it another shot down the road but I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far.
I tried the Beyond demo and it just bored me to tears. I didn't care about the characters at all. The supernatural stuff is just stupid. Maybe I'll give it another shot down the road but I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far.
Polishin8r
Member
played the demo and it is extremely impressive graphic wise and immersion wise,
however controls are a bit wanky and everything is a bit too linearr will definitely get it for $20
however controls are a bit wanky and everything is a bit too linearr will definitely get it for $20
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Shall I uncry them? Those unearned tears? So call me internet-wrong. Feel extra right, if you like. Most of what I found here attacking the game was a bunch of GAF poison, and the kind of condescending nitpicking that Trekkies don't even really bother to do with Trek movies anymore.
I compared this to movies that are in the same genre, roughly comparable to the game. Sci-fi, blockbuster, with action sequences. I will grant you the emotional depth and impact is probably not comparable to 12 Years a Slave.
...semantics...
As much as I'm sure you could spin a few paragraphs trying to convey this as inarguable fact, it remains a matter of opinion.
RedRedSuit
Member
Also where I live theater movies sure as hell aren't $6.50 on average.
Absolutely not, I said it's fine if you were moved to those tears. But, if I may be so bold, I think part of the point of this thread was convincing others that this game Beyond deserves more love. Since I am one of those who purchased Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain but not Beyond, I suspect I am part of your target audience. To do that, you made an extremely bold claim. I am merely pushing back on the claim, and saying that it is inconsistent with the plethora of issues we know the writing basically indisputably has, when we can find tons of movies that do everything better from a writing and directing perspective (save for having a choice in the outcome).
So I would say that it is the "having a choice in the outcome" that gives these games the extra emotional weight that movies seemingly cannot match for such individuals. Which would be a fairer point articulated in that way, since naturally if you put a game like HR in opposition to even the top 50 movies of the year, it's going to be obliterated from a writing and directing and acting point of view. I haven't played Beyond yet, but many trusted GAFers who had issues with HR have wrote quite extensively as to the similar problems they had with that game. So I imagine it's the same result: those who are active enough in desiring to change the outcome that they become emotionally invested are able to look past the many, many flaws in writing and directing.
dragonbane
Member
His next game will have a team of writers. According to an insider it will actually be loosely based on the premise of the Kara demo. Exciting times.
Fair enough. The game really doesn't have any of the usual "Page" things though, just a great performance from her.
A big part of why I play these games is actually because of the exploration aspect. It involves story of course, but it's not really in the foreground. I love walking around in their "sets", look at all the detail they carefully placed everywhere and interact with things doing funny, silly, stupid and cool things like drawing a picture or playing with dolls. So the "gameplay" there is certainly a big factor why I enjoy those games.
Honestly, why? If they happen than the story earned them for you. I'm not going to question my feelings or try to explore them for 30 minutes why they happened. It's not that important to me when consuming media. Unless you are weird and cry at everything I don't really see the problem. I will add though that Heavy Rain did nothing for me, while Beyond was very emotional (to me).
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
His next game will be based on the Kara demo? I hope that isn't true.
I would MUCH rather see him make a game based on the Dark Sorcerer demo.
I'd love to see the guy try fantasy.
I would MUCH rather see him make a game based on the Dark Sorcerer demo.
I'd love to see the guy try fantasy.
It's an unusual role for him. He's very normal and likable, which is kind of different from most of the stuff I'd seen him in where he's far more eccentric. So, it's a different side to him.
Yes, he's a large side character in the story. He's not in every scene though. Ellen Page is the main character for sure.
Pretty sure Kara was the Beyond demo. Casting was the HR demo. Dark Sorceror is the next game demo.
And I can safely say Beyond looked insane graphically, and was probably better than Kara.
That's just virtual sight seeing. You can do that with pretty much any pretty game. I spent 50 hours in Bioshock Infinite staring at every nook and cranny, but I wouldn't ever use my sight seeing as part of my evaluation on what worked and what didn't (except to say it's a gorgeous, lovingly crafted game from an artistic perspective; which I'm sure could be said about Beyond). You're free to, of course, but I don't think that's a strong argument vis-à-vis gameplay.
Because if you do not view things with a critical eye, and just allow yourself to be consumed whenever someone tries to manipulate some emotion out of you, than one must say such an opinion is not very valuable to be used for the broader context of convincing people to buy in. In such a case, there would appear to be no "standard" between when a person thinks writing and story is "bad enough" and what they don't. Exactly how bad does writing need to be before one acknowledges it may have personally worked for you, but it's not likely to work for most people?
zerokoolpsx
Member
I borrowed it from a friend. Played for 5 hours and set it down. Still have yet to beat it. The facial motion capture is top notch though. Story is somewhat convoluted since the whole thing jumps around a lot! Maybe I'll get around to it later.
It didn't draw me in compared to Heavy Rain though.
It didn't draw me in compared to Heavy Rain though.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Just because this game stirred emotion in me doesn't mean I "allowed myself to be consumed whenever someone tries to manipulate emotion out of me," dammit.
The ridiculous response you, and a lot of people are giving me, is as if I showed up and said a lot of glowing things about Battlefield Earth or something. Some generally-agreed-upon failure of production. The hyperbole and false equivalencies are thick.
There is no consensus of bad writing here. That's just you and some other GAF people who agree with you. I got people who agree with me too. There is no accepted truth in this matter. You cannot claim it, you have no right to it. Particularly if you are then also attempting to make this judgment for "most people."
ShodanMAN
Member
I respectively disagree
David Cage has illusions of grandeur.He thinks he is some deep artistic game designer,but guess what, he isn't. I understand exactly what he tried to do with BEYOND.Something we've seen in the world of film before, with movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs and Memento. Presenting scenes of the story out of sequence but still keeping a progressional structure. Requiring the audience to slot the scenes in order themselves, whilst revealing important elements of the story at very specific and intended times to benefit future scenes. When done right, this can be a very effective technique.
BEYOND however fails in doing this.One example why, is found in a section of the game where the main character is in a low place in her life and while standing next to a freeway, a decision is placed on her. Now I knew I was suppose to feel something at this point.I knew I was suppose to feel sorry for her, but like many scenes in the game it had no context at the time.Now I know that context would be given at a later time, but with scenes like that, it's very important to give context at that moment for maximum effect, and not later.
This is just one of several problems BEYOND has, but I don't want to rag on it too much because I know some people really liked/loved the game.
What I will do however, is refer to a list of things that shows how David Cage has such a rinse and repeat philosophy with his games. http://i.imgur.com/3Bfa5ZX.jpg
David Cage has illusions of grandeur.He thinks he is some deep artistic game designer,but guess what, he isn't. I understand exactly what he tried to do with BEYOND.Something we've seen in the world of film before, with movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs and Memento. Presenting scenes of the story out of sequence but still keeping a progressional structure. Requiring the audience to slot the scenes in order themselves, whilst revealing important elements of the story at very specific and intended times to benefit future scenes. When done right, this can be a very effective technique.
BEYOND however fails in doing this.One example why, is found in a section of the game where the main character is in a low place in her life and while standing next to a freeway, a decision is placed on her. Now I knew I was suppose to feel something at this point.I knew I was suppose to feel sorry for her, but like many scenes in the game it had no context at the time.Now I know that context would be given at a later time, but with scenes like that, it's very important to give context at that moment for maximum effect, and not later.
This is just one of several problems BEYOND has, but I don't want to rag on it too much because I know some people really liked/loved the game.
What I will do however, is refer to a list of things that shows how David Cage has such a rinse and repeat philosophy with his games. http://i.imgur.com/3Bfa5ZX.jpg
You're getting emotional and overreacting over genuine questions. I am starting to think you may indeed be easily manipulated emotionally
Joking aside, if you take harsh criticisms of a game you like so personally, it's only going to lead to sorrow. You're trying to convince people that this game deserves better sales, you're putting yourself out there. Obviously, then, people are going to interpret what you're saying, and it's your job to say where we're wrong or misguided.
We've actually been down the road criticizing Heavy Rain before. There's a lot of history with these conversations, so that's why some assumptions are being brought along for the ride here. In virtually every case of such discussions, the topic ends up with those of us who properly prepared writing out a list of indisputable plot and writing issues and other people saying "sure, they exist, but I was still emotionally moved anyway." Nobody can dispute the writing problems because they're factual, or at least as close to factual as exists in such a conversation. There's ACTUAL huge plot holes that have never been filled in. There's an entire supernatural element in Heavy Rain that was not completely excised and so just makes certain plot points completely fucking ridiculous nonsense because they no longer have any context within the game.
Dragonbane gave the best defense of Heavy Rain I've ever seen, but even he admitted there is big plot holes and writing issues.
With that in mind, many of those who haven't brought into Beyond are keeping such experiences in mind and need to be convinced it would be different.
oh god unfeasibly large apartments killed me
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
We should have Sculli or Solo give their impressions on the plot.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Joke post? Joke post.
If people hated Beyond because of the genre, Telltale wouldn't be famous and/or beloved by the hardcore community. David Cage is just not talented. On top of this, he's very outspoken, and often says the dumbest things. That doesn't do him any favors.
I actually want to say that I enjoyed Beyond: Two Souls. It's easily his best work. Indigo Prophecy was complete garbage from premise to execution. Heavy Rain had a great premise and setup, but had poor execution. Beyond: Two Souls is a much more refined David Cage experience, but it's still not quite there yet. Page and Dafoe's performance were easily the best part of that game, and I'm actually sad that Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy reviewed better, since I think they're more technically flawed games.
I feel like GAF just hates the praise and clout that surrounds David Cage, since a large number of people feel like he hasn't done anything to deserve it. He seems like he's getting a lot better, but he needs more time. For that reason, I'm excited to see what Singularity will bring, but at the same time I'm baffled that his career didn't end after Indigo Prophecy, because that game was rage inducing.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I don't need consensus. I know good writing, from structure to dialogue a screenplay isn't just wild emotional beats thrown at a wall to invoke emotions. Even a script like The Avengers, which suffers from some not insignificant issues, is doing some very smart things that contributed to it's runaway success.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Because his characters in Heavy Rain look, sound, and act like aliens pretending to be humans pretending to be aliens.
There is nothing in his work that has made me interested in giving him my money. His writing is on the level of SyFy made-for-TV movie.
There is nothing in his work that has made me interested in giving him my money. His writing is on the level of SyFy made-for-TV movie.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
I admitted that flaw to Heavy Rain, but the game affected me anyway.
Look, man. Nit pickers are going to have more patience and dedication tearing something down than somebody who enjoyed it is going to have defending it. I don't know why it is, but it is.
Almost every GAF thread on every game eventually devolves into a groups of people nitpicking the thing. QuanticDream is not unique in their ability to produce games upon which GAF would like to rag.
But people seem to want to switch over to talk about Heavy Rain's plot holes. Those that have been mentioned about Beyond... honestly... seem like nitpicks to me. No big deal. Not the insistence of Ryan's attempted love interest, not the (for me very affecting) scene in Africa. None of it. Either not a problem or not important to my overall impression of the story, the characters, the game and its point and impact.
Obviously nitpickers are going to have more patience in writing out diatribes because they are doing what they love best.
When you are enthusiastic about something, and trying to generate or share that enthusiasm, addressing a number of vitriolic essays from cynical nitpickers is not just counter-productive, it's actually kind of soul-sucking.Once I feel my eyes starting to roll, I stop reading and move on.
I can admit that I enjoy metal gear solid stories.
I can also admit that metal gear solid stories are often longwinded, melodramatic, cheesy, silly, convoluted, and at times make no god damned sense.
Is it because they are ambitious for a videogame? Is it because I enjoy the characters? Is it because hideo kojimas style can make normally boring scenes enjoyable?
There's nothing wrong with enjoying a videogame story. I wouldn't place Kojima on the same level as kubrick, kurosawa, or hitchcock {far from them} but the MGS stories are pleasurable nonetheless.
If David Cage games give you emotions such as sadness or joy, there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who tells you otherwise? don't let them get to you.
I can also admit that metal gear solid stories are often longwinded, melodramatic, cheesy, silly, convoluted, and at times make no god damned sense.
Is it because they are ambitious for a videogame? Is it because I enjoy the characters? Is it because hideo kojimas style can make normally boring scenes enjoyable?
There's nothing wrong with enjoying a videogame story. I wouldn't place Kojima on the same level as kubrick, kurosawa, or hitchcock {far from them} but the MGS stories are pleasurable nonetheless.
If David Cage games give you emotions such as sadness or joy, there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who tells you otherwise? don't let them get to you.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
The important thing is you're aware its junk. Enjoyable, tasty, broad strokes junk, but you would never call it good. You certainly wouldn't make a thread about your trashy dime store novel of a video game and tell people it deserved to sell, horrid dialog/bad characterizations/giant leaps in logic/bland direction/etc aside because "it made me feel things"
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
Why I didn't buy it? Really not the type of game I like playing at all. Sorry but those sort of cinematic games bore the heck out of me.
NullPointer
Member
I've never cared for stories in games. Its just not whats brings me to the medium, nor what keeps me interested.
But if you can grab my attention and keep me engaged, and allow me to explore the scenario, toy with it, interact with it and have some real consequence I'm in, regardless of where the story is going or how much character development is on offer. That stuff is all nice and dandy, provided you're doing something interesting at the core.
I want something truly interactive, where the ultimate payoff comes from a combination of what the game is offering up in terms of choice and how those options are presented and my reactions. Its a combined effort, and I don't want to be led by the hand through a meticulously confined and directed experience. And to that extent Heavy Rain had a hell of a lot more interesting and better implemented ideas than Beyond. HR played with that interaction more and seemed to experiment more.
But I'm glad David Cage is following his bliss. Sometimes you get a hit and sometimes a miss. As long as the rest of the industry isn't slavishly trying to follow his example (which thankfully they are not) I'll still follow what he puts out and give it a go.
But if you can grab my attention and keep me engaged, and allow me to explore the scenario, toy with it, interact with it and have some real consequence I'm in, regardless of where the story is going or how much character development is on offer. That stuff is all nice and dandy, provided you're doing something interesting at the core.
I want something truly interactive, where the ultimate payoff comes from a combination of what the game is offering up in terms of choice and how those options are presented and my reactions. Its a combined effort, and I don't want to be led by the hand through a meticulously confined and directed experience. And to that extent Heavy Rain had a hell of a lot more interesting and better implemented ideas than Beyond. HR played with that interaction more and seemed to experiment more.
But I'm glad David Cage is following his bliss. Sometimes you get a hit and sometimes a miss. As long as the rest of the industry isn't slavishly trying to follow his example (which thankfully they are not) I'll still follow what he puts out and give it a go.
I admitted that flaw to Heavy Rain, but the game affected me anyway.
Look, man. Nit pickers are going to have more patience and dedication tearing something down than somebody who enjoyed it is going to have defending it. I don't know why it is, but it is.
Almost every GAF thread on every game eventually devolves into a groups of people nitpicking the thing. QuanticDream is not unique in their ability to produce games upon which GAF would like to rag.
But people seem to want to switch over to talk about Heavy Rain's plot holes. Those that have been mentioned about Beyond... honestly... seem like nitpicks to me. No big deal. Not the insistence of Ryan's attempted love interest, not the (for me very affecting) scene in Africa. None of it. Either not a problem or not important to my overall impression of the story, the characters, the game and its point and impact.
Obviously nitpickers are going to have more patience in writing out diatribes because they are doing what they love best.
Once I feel my eyes starting to roll, I stop reading and move on.
Let me try to explain the position I have better. If we're going to bring a comparison to movies (which you brought into the conversation, I'm inclined to remind you), then take a simple illustration of my point.
Let's say a movie came out. In this movie, 15 minutes were dedicated to a story element that makes no sense whatsoever because a direction they were going in the movie changed in mid development. How many movie critics do you think would be kind to the film? What about if they had a movie set in America where kids inexplicably had french accents, and the typical acting performance was on par with a high school play? Where a person can hop off a motel roof and hijack a taxi with a fucking helicopter and endless police chasing them on their tail and still manage to escape somehow. With a helicopter there and like a zillion cops, who were too stupid to surround the motel somehow! Do you think people would be kind to this? These types of things do happen in some movies, and those movies generally end up at the RAZZIES for being so bad.
I am just touching the surface here. You seem to be willing to call this "nitpicking." But if a game's primary purpose is to deliver a compelling story, how else can one engage in its proceedings if that story is so frequently riddled with nonsense? DO you not understand why the story in a game LIKE Heavy Rain opens itself up more to this sort of scathing critique? It's a game which focuses on the story!
I am willing to be convinced Beyond is different. I am. I purchased Indigo Prophecy, I purchased Heavy Rain. I feel these games do have a certain type of potential. I am not afraid of new ideas, I play all sorts of bold and quirky games that try all sorts of things with storytelling. So, I am willing to be convinced, but to do so, I must be a little forceful in how I engage in pushing back on this subject, to see if the person making the argument can really compel me and convince me to give it a shot.
I do think that the MGS franchise has a lot of good messages, but are overshadowed by fat roller skating bombers crotch grabbing and illuminati-like orgs and things like that, that most people don't notice them.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I haven't bought it but my hype was lower for it than Heave Rain. If they make a game like The Dark Sorcerer I will be very excited.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
This is the kind of incendiary paraphrasing and insulting characterizing that makes GAF too often a wasteland of trashy dime-store blowhards convinced of their own unassailable elitism.
Ami there simply were no plot holes or issues with his game that stood out to me like they did in Heavy Rain. And I still enjoyed the hell out of Heavy Rain. But its plot hole related to its cut element is apparent, was noticed by me, and undid its effect a bit.
Nothing like that happened in this game. It is broken into these episodes and is long, so the worst I can say about it is I put it down for a while to play Batman and Burial at Sea, and then I finished it up and enjoyed it immensely. Everyone knows Indigo Prophecy fell apart at the end, with sci-fi elements from a wholy aborted part of the story. Heavy Rain drove me crazy with its character controls and that one significant plot hole and the other that has been mentioned:
that the thoughts you listen is on as the killer don't really match what he would be thinking as the killer.
Other have addressed how the Africa scene and the dating scene were crucial to my understanding of the character. I don't need to defend against those nitpicks. If you want to read that defense, it's here.
The game is long, and all the vignettes are contributive to the character and her experience in a way that NO MOVIE can accomplish in the time allotted. In this regard, all I have to say is that the extra time spent made me feel closer to her character and made her become a very real and sympathetic character, in much the way that reading a novel would instead of a movie. I would also state that the interactivity itself invested me further in the character, but I said in OP "taken as a movie."
There may just be no accounting for taste. Certainly people latch onto "plot holes" or nitpicks that I think are unimportant. They didn't sand up in importance to me during my playthrough, like the one in Heavy Rain did. For this one, nothing like that occurred to me. Going round-and-round with people over their "plot holes" and nitpicks makes them seem important somehow, and they are not. It is, in fact, the importance assigned to them with which I disagree.
These people's complaints... they just didn't impede me, they were not a big deal. This big, affecting, moving character story totally overshadowed any flaws and I didn't notice ANY of them, at the time of playthrough, or even when reading them here. That's the biggest argument I can give you Ami: all these nitpicks... the story rises above it... the experience rises above it. It's greater than the sum of its parts, and my experience was apparently way greater than many others here, though not everybody.
For some people, it really works. Just play the thing so you don't have to take my or anybody's word for it.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I would absolutely love it if Heavy Rain and Beyond were edited into actual movies and released in theaters.
Well said. To add to this, at least make some semblence at the illusion of choice while playing is fairly important (as there has yet to be a title in creation that allows complete freedom of action and impact on the world in regard to backstory and overal narration of it. The mechanics simply aren't there.). If it starts becoming painfully obvious that the choices really don't matter, one solution to every problem, or throwing the same wall to climb over in order to reach the next segement ad nausea, then there is a real problem with the title and the trend in the medium. Older games had none of these things, or even small hinting of plot and reason for being, yet held the attention of millions. It just seems so strange now that such emphasis is being placed on the narration over the interaction and content that the titles being passed off as "games" do not feel like games in some instances anymore.
dragonbane
Member
According to an insider, so take it with a grain of salt. I think he will try comedy later, but not on his next game.
They mostly react through dialogue and shooting at Jodie (improved from the demo). If you don't do anything they will eventually blow her cover and arrest her leading to a different scene where you have to escape.
True, but they are mostly static and can't be interacted with. Sure you can't do everything you want in Beyond either, but a big chunk of the set is interactive in some way which makes a big difference. In other games exploration is just one aspect, while I think in Beyond and Heavy Rain it's pretty much 90% of the "gameplay". In a similar way a lot of people love just walking around in something like Dear Esther and Gone Home. Sightseeing is part of the point all things considered.
Fair enough. But the fact that I don't cry at every hamfisted scene in game, movies and books you can think of (including Heavy Rain) kinda proves that I'm not THAT easily emotionally manipulated. To some extent maybe, in either case it probably says that Beyond is at least doing a better job at it. But I definitely try to not speak for everyone and wouldn't create these kind of threads. Looking as critically as I can at those games Heavy Rain has strong issues story wise without a doubt and won't be enjoyed by a lot of people. Beyond on the other hand is genuinely decent IMO if you accept to get a supernatural story upfront. It doesn't have any significant plot holes as far as I can see. Pretty much everything is explained at some point.
The real issues with the game have to do with the gameplay stunningly enough.
Thanks. And Heavy Rain sure has a lot of problems.
I finished Beyond and that's actually exactly what it is.
The writing in this game is embarrassingly bad and most characters are just terrible. If Cage wants to make his games better, he needs to stay away from the script and the dialogue writing as far as possible.