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[JonnyDBrit]

How are we supposed to infer this from normal stereotyping in a purely communicative aspect?



When you say accepting it, what do you mean? What does it matter to you if somebody doesn't accept it? What part of this concept requires others to accept something that appears to be purely asserted in your own mind?

Because that lack of acceptance over something that no, those for whom it's truly relevant cannot drop, is used to discriminate and belittle. To use a pretty mundane example that is also very relevant for people who transition: Names. I identify as a Jonathan. Yes, it's what my parents named me, but I like it and accept it as my identify.

Now, if someone calls me Chris, and despite my protests that my name is Jonathan, it gets really fucking annoying. But taking the other example, if I had my name legally changed to Christopher, it would start pissing me off if people still kept calling me Jonathan - that's not who I am anymore.

Now in the transgender experience, add in people that are willing to encourage you to commit suicide because you're a 'freak' to them.

That's why acceptance matters.

 

[Cyanity]

Doesn't that make it all sort of meaningless? As time goes on I become more and more convinced that gender doesn't exist.

Like, there's traditional masculine and feminine traits. But there's nothing inherent about them. You can say "I'm a woman" and have a full beard and chop down trees out in the mountains. Or "I'm a man" and wear dresses and do ballet. I mean, why not? It's a bit regressive to box any traits or activities into either side. Even a spectrum feels sort of primitive ever since women's liberation.

But then there's the physiological fact that men and women (including trans men and women) have certain brain shapes and patterns and what not. So there's clearly something there. But we can't just say "women are women because they think/act like women" without claiming that women have to act a certain way.

Frankly it's a mess, wake me up when humanity figures all this out.

It's human nature to categorize things. Without the ability to do so, it becomes difficult for us to communicate with one another. Hence why this conversation is necessary.

 

[ahoyhoy]

For some reason this makes me laugh, like a person's sexuality makes them "greedy" because they experience attraction/romance towards more than a singular gender. What does that even mean?! How insecure does a person have to be to even think, let alone, utter/type this?

But I'm curious, and this might be a dumb question, but how does being biromantic work? I've never heard the term before. I can understand how sexual attraction differs because there are physical differences between the sexes that signal those feelings of attraction, but what are the romantic differences that would make someone attracted to one vs the other, or both, or all (such as panromatic)?

As far as I understand, being Biromantic is basically like all the shit you do with your partner besides sex and with no regard for gender.

Like, do you only take your partner out for dinner, have deep conversations, console them, cuddle with them etc because you find them hot? Some people want all of thst with either gender.

 

[Glix]

"Looking like a man" is subjective as all fuck.
Women can marry women.
I'm a woman, and I have male sexual organs.
No, you don't have to accept it, not accepting it just makes you fucking asshole.

While Im not questioning. I want to tell you my first reaction to reading this post is to think "looking like a man is subjective" is a fallacy (sp?)

Im going to think more on it and do some research and read reactions to this post. I say it because its the genuine first reaction. Not because Im looking for something to disagree with. It doesnt make me doubt or undermine any of the points you have made/are making.

Maybe its valuable to understand how someone who wants to understand all the things this thread is about, but has been indocrtrinated with different ideas throughout their lives

Or maybe you have heard it all before especially from people concern trolling and what not and have little to no interest in the above. Which would be understandable and if this post offends or upsets i am genuinely sorry.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

No.

I'm simply asking clarifying questions to understand this fully.

Is that not allowed?

You just have to understand that many people "just ask questions" about topics like this in order to guide a conversation to a point where they can say "Aha, got you!" and claim victory. When this is about a topic as personal and fluid as gender and sexuality, you can see why people would be averse to a bunch of questions that seem to be leading somewhere.

Wow that's quite the condescending tone in the OP!!

Are all bisexuals like that, or is that a choice? Please educate me.

I'm going to take this as some shade at my POV, and I love it. XD

 

[Glix]

As far as I understand, being Biromantic is basically like all the shit you do with your partner besides sex and with no regard for gender.

Like, do you only take your partner out for dinner, have deep conversations, console them, cuddle with them etc because you find them hot? Some people want all of thst with either gender.

Wouldn't cuddling and finding them hot be bisexual not biromantic?

 

[Woorloog]

Because that lack of acceptance over something that no, those for whom it's truly relevant cannot drop, is used to discriminate and belittle. To use a pretty mundane example that is also very relevant for people who transition: Names. I identify as a Jonathan. Yes, it's what my parents named me, but I like it and accept it as my identify.

Now, if someone calls me Chris, and despite my protests that my name is Jonathan, it gets really fucking annoying. But taking the other example, if I had my name legally changed to Christopher, it would start pissing me off if people still kept calling me Jonathan - that's not who I am anymore.

Now in the transgender experience, add in people that are willing to encourage you to commit suicide because you're a 'freak' to them.

That's why acceptance matters.

Excellent analogy. People are what they are, and should be accepted as they are. It doesn't affect others in any way. Or shouldn't affect anyway, unless they're idiotic enough to make it an issue.
Which is how this whole mess starts, some fucks are just way too dense, or want to control others. (Which might be the core issue, some people hate the idea others have liberty to define themselves as they wish and that this cannot be really controlled.)

 

[ahoyhoy]

Wouldn't cuddling and finding them hot be bisexual not biromantic?

I separated the two concepts by the "etc". Cuddling, at least for me, is not always connected with sexual feelings. I've cuddled with friends without feeling attracted to them, for instance.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

While Im not questioning. I want to tell you my first reaction to reading this post is to think "looking like a man is subjective" is a fallacy (sp?)

I believe you're thinking of the culturally accepted norm of what a "man" looks like, which is also fluid and changes over time. What's important to note is that this norm is cultural and, therefore, arbitrary -- which is where the confusion comes in, I think.

 

[jph139]

It's human nature to categorize things. Without the ability to do so, it becomes difficult for us to communicate with one another. Hence why this conversation is necessary.

I mean, I understand that, for sure. But I don't have a strong gender identity. Like, I am male, have always been a boy/man, and have the common traits associated with that. I don't dispute it because, well, that's just sort of how things are done.

I'm just curious how people who DO have a strong identity manage to ascribe themselves one or the other without making what are pretty regressive leaps ("Women do X/Y/Z, and I do X/Y/Z, therefore I'm a woman.") But then, if you don't make those leaps, why bother "joining the team" if the team doesn't stand for anything? Wouldn't it be easier just to abandon gender altogether?

I imagine that's what agender people do, then... everyone else just sort of lives with the inconsistency I guess?

 

[Aikidoka]

Doesn't that make it all sort of meaningless? As time goes on I become more and more convinced that gender doesn't exist.

Like, there's traditional masculine and feminine traits. But there's nothing inherent about them. You can say "I'm a woman" and have a full beard and chop down trees out in the mountains. Or "I'm a man" and wear dresses and do ballet. I mean, why not? It's a bit regressive to box any traits or activities into either side. Even a spectrum feels sort of primitive ever since women's liberation.

But then there's the physiological fact that men and women (including trans men and women) have certain brain shapes and patterns and what not. So there's clearly something there. But we can't just say "women are women because they think/act like women" without claiming that women have to act a certain way.

Frankly it's a mess, wake me up when humanity figures all this out.

Saying that gender flat out doesn't exist is a bit disingenuous. It is an emergent phenomenon in society, which is distinct from biology. From my brief course in cultural anthropology, the majority (maybe all?) societies have given rise to largely well-defined societal roles and norms (aka gender roles), but different societies assign these roles to different sexes (e.g., matriarchy vs patriarchy).

This is not to say that there won't be a future society where gender roles are no longer a useful tool for describing how it works.

 

[Beefy]

Just seen the dev thread that spawned this. Didn't even take one page for some one to spew shit

 

[theguy]

OP, your condescending tone makes it difficult for me to appreciate your post.

I'm a bi guy who's walking away offended, not informed.

Grow up.

 

[Woorloog]

the majority (maybe all?) societies have given rise to largely well-defined societal roles and norms (aka gender roles), but different societies assign these roles to different sexes (e.g., matriarchy vs patriarchy).

There are, or were, societies that actually had third genders of some kind, no? While binary systems are most common, they aren't the only ones.

 

[Haly]

Which is the offending thread on gaming side? Was it locked?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Excellent analogy. People are what they are, and should be accepted as they are. It doesn't affect others in any way. Or shouldn't affect anyway, unless they're idiotic enough to make it an issue.
Which is how this whole mess starts, some fucks are just way too dense, or want to control others. (Which might be the core issue, some people hate the idea others have liberty to define themselves as they wish and that this cannot be really controlled.)

At some level I feel like it's partially because yeah, the ability to define one's self actually is a notion at odds with the bulk of history. Even within democracies purporting people to be free, there were various unquestioned assumptions that, well, have been questioned. As time has gone on, a great affordance has been given to people's freedom to choose, and it's not quite sunken in for some that if people are willing to question and choose (apologies for phrasing) their social class, their nationality, where they live, and their career (especially as a woman), some may question and wish to decide - rather than have it decided for them - their sexuality and gender.

There are, or were, societies that actually had third genders of some kind, no? While binary systems are most common, they aren't the only ones.

Also yes, though this were often correlated and defined on a third sex (as in, intersex). Concepts like being Hijra doesn't quite align with the concept of being transgender as popularised within the west either, so there's some nuance of cultural presumptions lost in translation.

 

[TenCentCoast]

OP, your condescending tone makes it difficult for me to appreciate your post.

I'm a bi guy who's walking away offended, not informed.

Grow up.

Hard not to be condescending when the people listening to you don't want to hear what you have to say and are choosing to be ignorant.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Excellent analogy. People are what they are, and should be accepted as they are. It doesn't affect others in any way. Or shouldn't affect anyway, unless they're idiotic enough to make it an issue.
Which is how this whole mess starts, some fucks are just way too dense, or want to control others. (Which might be the core issue, some people hate the idea others have liberty to define themselves as they wish and that this cannot be really controlled.)

Just to play the devil's advocate here, isn't it a bit controlling to demand people accept you based off of something almost entirely constructed in your own brain?

Really not trying to incite anything here, purely a topic of discussion and I think a pertinent question.

 

[Aikidoka]

There are, or were, societies that actually had third genders of some kind, no? While binary systems are most common, they aren't the only ones.

I wouldn't doubt it. I didn't restrict what I was saying only to two roles, only that well-defined roles existed.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, isn't it a bit controlling to demand people accept you based off of something almost entirely constructed in your own brain?

Really not trying to incite anything here, purely a topic of discussion and I think a pertinent question.

It can be. If I declared myself King of a reformed Mercia, I'd probably have a hard time getting genuine support.

But this is also a more fundamental issue than that, and it's the people 'constructing it in their brain' that actually have their livelihoods and lives threatened by their choice. No-one is going to tell me to commit suicide for ascending as Frederick the 1st of England.

 

[Barzul]

Sorry if someone has answered this, but what are the other genders besides male and female? I know transgender people are folks who are born female but with male physical attributes and vice versa until they transition outwardly(?) to their actual gender.

But your post seems to indicate there are other genders besides male and female, and these are?

 

[Haly]

Sorry if someone has answered this, but what are the other genders besides male and female? I know transgender people are folks who are born female but with male physical attributes and vice versa until they transition outwardly(?) to their actual gender.

But your post seems to indicate there are other genders besides male and female, and these are?

The Hijras of South Asia are a good example of a third gender that arose in a society and is legally recognized by that society. A few other cultures have developed gender roles like the Hijra that go beyond the binary of penis = man, vagina = woman.

 

[pashmilla]

Sorry if someone has answered this, but what are the other genders besides male and female? I know transgender people are folks who are born female but with male physical attributes and vice versa until they transition outwardly(?) to their actual gender.

But your post seems to indicate there are other genders besides male and female, and these are?

Well you can be non-binary/bigender (some people use the terms interchangeably but I'm not trans/nb so I'm not an expert on these things by any means), agender, genderfluid, etc.

This is a helpful starting point.

 

[Hagi]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, isn't it a bit controlling to demand people accept you based off of something almost entirely constructed in your own brain?

Really not trying to incite anything here, purely a topic of discussion and I think a pertinent question.

If you are going to have control of anything surely your own life and how you see yourself is important no? Seems like it's controlling how you see yourself vs society controlling how they see you.

 

[Glix]

I believe you're thinking of the culturally accepted norm of what a "man" looks like, which is also fluid and changes over time. What's important to note is that this norm is cultural and, therefore, arbitrary -- which is where the confusion comes in, I think.

Nah. I not thinking of dress or hair or anything like that.

i was thinking more physical observable characteristics, like a penis and an adams apple and lack of boobies.

But perhaps the post I was referencing meant the definition of a "man" by society and thats where my confusion is?

 

[Cyanity]

I mean, I understand that, for sure. But I don't have a strong gender identity. Like, I am male, have always been a boy/man, and have the common traits associated with that. I don't dispute it because, well, that's just sort of how things are done.

I'm just curious how people who DO have a strong identity manage to ascribe themselves one or the other without making what are pretty regressive leaps ("Women do X/Y/Z, and I do X/Y/Z, therefore I'm a woman.") But then, if you don't make those leaps, why bother "joining the team" if the team doesn't stand for anything? Wouldn't it be easier just to abandon gender altogether?

I imagine that's what agender people do, then... everyone else just sort of lives with the inconsistency I guess?

I mean, the vast majority of individuals out there find it pretty easy to ascribe to whichever gender they associate with. For the genderqueer and agender folks out there, that's where "they" and "them" pronouns come in handy. But again, abandoning gender would require a rewriting of the language we use to communicate with one another. I have no idea how that could be achieved.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

It can be. If I declared myself King of a reformed Mercia, I'd probably have a hard time getting genuine support.

But this is also a more fundamental issue than that, and it's the people 'constructing it in their brain' that actually have their livelihoods and lives threatened by their choice. No-one is going to tell me to commit suicide for ascending as Frederick the 1st of England.

Well that's the whole point I'm trying to make, because you say you are Frederick I, King of England, doesn't mean you are. Gender is an entirely different concept in that from what I'm learning here, it 100% IS construed by a choice (I guess not necessarily a traditional choice) and a definitive self-affirmation.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, isn't it a bit controlling to demand people accept you based off of something almost entirely constructed in your own brain?

Really not trying to incite anything here, purely a topic of discussion and I think a pertinent question.

Ugh, I was going to answer this, and then just realized it was going to get angry and insulting.
Just respect people, people. Jesus fucking god, it isn't that hard.

 

[Kangi]

Sorry if someone has answered this, but what are the other genders besides male and female? I know transgender people are folks who are born female but with male physical attributes and vice versa until they transition outwardly(?) to their actual gender.

But your post seems to indicate there are other genders besides male and female, and these are?

Gender's sort of a spectrum. Some people don't fall into a gender binary; a well-known example would be intersex people. Think of it less as there being some hidden third gender and more like some people just don't go by "male/female".

 

[curls]

It can be a hard thing to deal with sometimes. ��

 

[careless mango]

Good post op, having had multiple bisexual partners in the past I was fully aware of it, however being a bit more enlightened about pansexuality is nice. Thanks!

 

[Barzul]

Gender's sort of a spectrum. Some people don't fall into a gender binary; a well-known example would be intersex people. Think of it less as there being some hidden third gender and more like some people just don't go by "male/female".

Thanks, I think this explanation has made the most sense for me.

 

[Woorloog]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, isn't it a bit controlling to demand people accept you based off of something almost entirely constructed in your own brain?

Really not trying to incite anything here, purely a topic of discussion and I think a pertinent question.

I don't go telling others that LGBT+ are freaks, should die, or just choose or whatever else harmful. Harmful to both LGBT+ people, and society as a whole as such rhetoric is inherently destructive.

I say, why do you bother? Even if you shut down people from expressing this, they are still themselves no matter what. Anti-LGBT+ attitudes are inherently losing positions.

And, i'm not trying to police thoughts. Anti-LGBT+ people would do that, they'd prefer these concepts would not even exist.

Ugh, I was going to answer this, and then just realized it was going to get angry and insulting.
Just respect people, people. Jesus fucking god, it isn't that hard.

He does have a point, in a way. But i think my explanation above is very much correct, and that i don't try to control people per se.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Ugh, I was going to answer this, and then just realized it was going to get angry and insulting.
Just respect people, people. Jesus fucking god, it isn't that hard.

No, it isn't hard, but that doesn't mean I can't ask questions. These questions do not reflect my belief system or how I treat people, but I believe that they provoke interesting thought. The topic of gender seems quite nascent and ever-changing, so I don't think being impatient or accusatory of people who, in my case, have almost 0 experience in dealing with the subject.

By posting in this thread at all, I guess I've admitted I'm an "idiot" of the subject, already. Legitimately just asking questions for the sake of discussion.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

I don't go telling others that LGBT+ are freaks, should die, or just choose or whatever else harmful. Harmful to both LGBT+ people, and society as a whole as such rhetoric is inherently destructive.

I say, why do you bother? Even if you shut down people from expressing this, they are still themselves no matter what. Anti-LGBT+ attitudes are inherently losing positions.

And, i'm not trying to police thoughts. Anti-LGBT+ people would do that, they'd prefer these concepts would not even exist.

I don't tell anybody that they are freaks and should die, regardless, either. I sincerely don't care what people believe in or choose for themselves so long as it doesn't cause harm to any other person. Still, I have questions about this subject because it's intriguing and new to me.

 

[Sai-kun]

No, it isn't hard, but that doesn't mean I can't ask questions. These questions do not reflect my belief system or how I treat people, but I believe that they provoke interesting thought. The topic of gender seems quite nascent and ever-changing, so I don't think being impatient or accusatory of people who, in my case, have almost 0 experience in dealing with the subject.

By posting in this thread at all, I guess I've admitted I'm an "idiot" of the subject, already. Legitimately just asking questions for the sake of discussion.

there isn't really any knowledge to be gained by playing devils advocate and asking "but what if... I didn't respect your very basic wishes? what happens???"

 

[Glix]

I don't tell anybody that they are freaks and should die, regardless, either. I sincerely don't care what people believe in or choose for themselves so long as it doesn't cause harm to any other person. Still, I have questions about this subject because it's intriguing and new to me.

You not doing doesn't matter at all. It is done. Often.

Therefore you need to be mindful of that when forming opinions or asking questions and understand that it is a truism and part of the situation.

 

[Vinsanity.]

2. But the gender binary is bullshit!

Yeah, I know. That's why pansexuality has become an increasingly popular replacement term. Pansexuality is the ability to experience attraction to all genders. If anyone wants to come in here and try to tell me that there are only two genders, be prepared to get fucking got.

How many genders are there currently? Not arguing or anything, I guess I'm just ignorant and curious..

Thanks!

EDIT: I googled it, and saw answers ranging from 20-58 genders

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Well that's the whole point I'm trying to make, because you say you are Frederick I, King of England, doesn't mean you are. Gender is an entirely different concept in that from what I'm learning here, it 100% IS construed by a choice (I guess not necessarily a traditional choice) and a definitive self-affirmation.

I don't tell anybody that they are freaks and should die, regardless, either. I sincerely don't care what people believe in or choose for themselves so long as it doesn't cause harm to any other person. Still, I have questions about this subject because it's intriguing and new to me.

Thing is, it's not just about individual interaction. Acceptance helps to legitimise these identities that are severely important to people - rather than a one off proclamation like my own - and make other, more harmful responses - again, the whole suicide issue - less acceptable.

 

[pashmilla]

No, it isn't hard, but that doesn't mean I can't ask questions. These questions do not reflect my belief system or how I treat people, but I believe that they provoke interesting thought. The topic of gender seems quite nascent and ever-changing, so I don't think being impatient or accusatory of people who, in my case, have almost 0 experience in dealing with the subject.

By posting in this thread at all, I guess I've admitted I'm an "idiot" of the subject, already. Legitimately just asking questions for the sake of discussion.

If you want to "ask questions", feel free to make your own thread

there isn't really any knowledge to be gained by playing devils advocate and asking "but what if... I didn't respect your very basic wishes? what happens???"

Seriously.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

there isn't really any knowledge to be gained by playing devils advocate and asking "but what if... I didn't respect your very basic wishes? what happens???"

That wasn't the point, though.

The conditions for acceptance so far have been outlined as being either 100% accepting or being absolutely disgusted and hateful. I don't believe that anything in life is that black/white, nor do I believe it to be a reasonable expectation of most people.

I guess really I'm at odds with the way "acceptance" is being used. People are free to do believe in whatever nonsense they want, unfortunately, so them not outright screaming profane things at an LGBT+ person isn't necessarily an acceptance, but a tolerance.

But disregard the question if it's coming across as just a "But what if I did <blank>" kind of thing. Absolutely wasn't my intention.

 

[Kangi]

How many genders are there currently? Not arguing or anything, I guess I'm just ignorant and curious..

Thanks!

There's not some tally or anything. Some people don't go by male/female, whether from being intersex, trans*, some other form of genderqueer, etc.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

there isn't really any knowledge to be gained by playing devils advocate and asking "but what if... I didn't respect your very basic wishes? what happens???"

I do enjoy the role reversal, where the person asking to have their personal gender or sexual identity respected is the oppressor trying to "control" someone. Being asked to adjust a pronoun isn't controlling, it's just common courtesy.

If that poster isn't aware, it's phrasing like that which makes people wary of discussion. You need to be aware of things like that which can easily be perceived as hidden (or not-so-hidden) slights.

 

[Woorloog]

I don't tell anybody that they are freaks and should die, regardless, either. I sincerely don't care what people believe in or choose for themselves so long as it doesn't cause harm to any other person. Still, I have questions about this subject because it's intriguing and new to me.

If you have questions in the "help me understand something i'm not, genuinely curious"-way, it is all right, i think, though then specific questions are usually more useful. IMO.
I mean, if i ask, "Explain gender", it is difficult to give meaningful and understandable answer to that. Something more specific or detailed might be better.

Homophobic etc. people usually don't even try to understand. They just want others to be as they say others should be.

 

[Vinsanity.]

There's not some tally or anything. Some people don't go by male/female, whether from being intersex, trans*, some other form of genderqueer, etc.

OK, thanks. Could/do people create their own gender and identify as that?

 

[Hagi]

That wasn't the point, though.

The conditions for acceptance so far have been outlined as being either 100% accepting or being absolutely disgusted and hateful. I don't believe that anything in life is that black/white, nor do I believe it to be a reasonable expectation of most people.

I guess really I'm at odds with the way "acceptance" is being used. People are free to do believe in whatever nonsense they want, unfortunately, so them not outright screaming profane things at an LGBT+ person isn't necessarily an acceptance, but a tolerance.

But disregard the question if it's coming across as just a "But what if I did <blank>" kind of thing. Absolutely wasn't my intention.

Accepting/tolerating/acquiescing you can really use whatever word you want but it all boils down to respecting a persons decision or choice and how they see themselves. You can do this pretty easily without agreeing with them. The only thing you are "controlling" is how you want people to see you.

 

[Marmaladefire]

I could cry. Thanks for this

 

[Easy_D]

I'm honestly of the opinion that we're all bisexual. It's just that we have preferences for what's a turn on/beautiful and so we tend to get drawn to one particular gender.

Edit: To clarify I'm not saying it's a choice, although taking the plunge to try something different very well could show you that you're open to more than the one thing you thought was exclusively your preference in the past. So it's more like our preferences are "hidden" from us, possibly due to societal norms and what not. Basically what I'm saying is I think we'd see way more bisexual people if the norm wasn't being heterosexual.

 

[Kangi]

OK, thanks. Could/do people create their own gender and identify as that?

I suppose you'd have the freedom to do so, sure. To what amount of success is questionable. Most non-binary people I know just go by "genderqueer", since it's easier than having to provide a dossier of just how they think of themselves.

 

[Platy]

How many genders are there currently? Not arguing or anything, I guess I'm just ignorant and curious..

Thanks!

EDIT: I googled it, and saw answers ranging from 20-58 genders

It is not that simple.
It is not exact science ... non binary people can have the same gender but call it from other names.