You justifying such a reductive and condescending question as "I guess I'm just too nuanced" doesn't do you any favors - it's another red flag, imo, that you are not being genuine in wanting to learn.
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Bi/pansexuality for idiots: a Very Useful Guide
- Thread starter pashmilla
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You justifying such a reductive and condescending question as "I guess I'm just too nuanced" doesn't do you any favors - it's another red flag, imo, that you are not being genuine in wanting to learn.
Interesting question, though one that is slightly about definitions, perhaps. I mean, people are, and they define a term for what they are. It is possible someone doesn't match any terms they know, but they don't exactly invent a gender in that case, as gender is an inherent thing.
Explaining what something is is difficult though. Language is not accurate. Like, i recently figured out i can't really say i identify as male (i am biologically male with no abnormalities i know of), but not sure agender is really accurate description either, though it is functional.
Vinsanity.
Member
How would one measure "success" of a gender they created? Being recognized by a certain agency or group as a valid gender?
DyslexicAlucard
Member
And this is equating transsexuality with delusion and schizophrenia, which it very much isn't. One is a genuine discord between your body and your brain that has been proven to exist (see DSM-V), and the other is a total break from reality. These are not interchangeable.
Your gender is no more a choice than your sexuality.
Thanks for this wonderful thread.
I honestly believe that these identifiers are very important, even for someone that doesn't interact with them on an everyday basis.
I am biromantic. I experience romantic attraction both to my own gender and any outside of it.
I am demisexual. I am somewhere between asexual and sexual. My default state is asexual, but I can become sexually attracted to someone if I form an emotional(not necessarily romantic) connection to them.
I am a demiwoman. Sometimes referred to as a demigirl or demifemale. I identify with aspects of the gender binary and womanhood, but I consider some aspects of my gender to be nonbinary.
...but those identifiers inform my internal viewpoint more than how others interact with me.
Strangers/acquaintances/co-workers just know and interact with the woman part of that identity(and under the assumption that I'm cisgendered and straight). Friends might know me as a gay trans woman. My closest friends may know and recognize the intricacies of my identity, but it's mostly something that I use to identify me, recognizing that others will not and do not need to recognize my gender and sexual identity with such nuance.
That said, some people are going to wear the intricacies of their identity on their sleeve, and that's okay too. If someone thinks that this is overdoing it or in some way inappropriate or embarrassing, remember that straight, cis people do this all the time. If you don't have a problem with it then, you might want to take a look at why.
This is what I mean when I refer to myself as bi, as well.
I honestly believe that these identifiers are very important, even for someone that doesn't interact with them on an everyday basis.
I am biromantic. I experience romantic attraction both to my own gender and any outside of it.
I am demisexual. I am somewhere between asexual and sexual. My default state is asexual, but I can become sexually attracted to someone if I form an emotional(not necessarily romantic) connection to them.
I am a demiwoman. Sometimes referred to as a demigirl or demifemale. I identify with aspects of the gender binary and womanhood, but I consider some aspects of my gender to be nonbinary.
...but those identifiers inform my internal viewpoint more than how others interact with me.
Strangers/acquaintances/co-workers just know and interact with the woman part of that identity(and under the assumption that I'm cisgendered and straight). Friends might know me as a gay trans woman. My closest friends may know and recognize the intricacies of my identity, but it's mostly something that I use to identify me, recognizing that others will not and do not need to recognize my gender and sexual identity with such nuance.
That said, some people are going to wear the intricacies of their identity on their sleeve, and that's okay too. If someone thinks that this is overdoing it or in some way inappropriate or embarrassing, remember that straight, cis people do this all the time. If you don't have a problem with it then, you might want to take a look at why.
This is what I mean when I refer to myself as bi, as well.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I remember when someone I love told me they were I didn't realize how stupid someone could be about bisexuality. They even sent me a video on the subject.
I realize when I'm watching TV or something and an attractive comment is said about another woman then that's normal. It's just how they are.
I guess she figured that since I was a Caucasian male coming from a religious upbringing that I would have thought something different. It wasn't the case. I do believe there is a lot of room for idiot guides like this thread.
I realize when I'm watching TV or something and an attractive comment is said about another woman then that's normal. It's just how they are.
I guess she figured that since I was a Caucasian male coming from a religious upbringing that I would have thought something different. It wasn't the case. I do believe there is a lot of room for idiot guides like this thread.
Marmaladefire
Member
I'm almost certain that everyone is a little fluid, honestly. I lean towards being heteroromantic, but I'm still pansexual. I think if people didn't get so caught up in hard cutoffs or numbers on the kinsey scale they would be better off.
It's just such a difficult situation.
Honest questions are okay, but especially on an internet forum there is so much concern trolling I completely understand why people would just want to shut other people down and not answer their questions or engage. I feel it myself in certain threads about anti semetisim and holocaust denial. As there are only so many times you can answer the same exact questions before it starts seeming like everything is concern trolling.
Similarly, as it was my own experience, I understand why someone would come into this conversation in a defensive way. Because I didn't know or understand some of the things in the OP, and frankly, even if the OP frustrated or whatever, I don't react that great to basically being called an idiot by the thread title.
So yeah. Even for people on both sides, with the best of intentions, it can be a situation where misunderstanding and frustration can rule the day.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Well, I didn't definitively state that I was too anything, I was just reconciling my thought process with the actual word acceptance with how it's being used, to which a few posters addressed. It wasn't my intention to come across as condescending, I'm trying to actively parse and understand things being stated, if I reassemble my thoughts in a way perceived as insulting, I really do apologize.
I don't know how to prove to you that I'm genuinely interested in wanting to learn something, but I can only re-emphasize that I am.
That's a new one for me. The term demisexual i know but demiwoman (or demiman or whatever else)?
cyborgnumberblue
Member
No, I wasn't implying that at all.
It's much more the person stating they are a king is the one suffering delusions, was my point entirely.
People have stated the opposite in this topic, too. So gender isn't a choice?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Homo/Hetero/Bi/Pan-sexuality are not adequate descriptors for my sexuality as at least 3 of them have been used to describe my attraction by other people. I prefer to use a proposed replacement of andro/gyne-philia. Every time I mention it on GAF however people are confused even when this venn diagram is simple as hell to me:
Your chart is missing asexuality, aromanticism, and agender-ism or however it should be written. I think. Or would those just fall off the chart?
Gender and sexuality are not choices. They just are what they are. Defining in words what one is is problematic, and there can be some latitude (choice) there, but only because language is inaccurate.
I just edited my post to define things a little. ^_^
Weird for such a chart to focus on sex instead of gender
echoshifting
Banned
36 w/o, bisexual heteroromantic guy here. Thanks for the thread.
I have been comfortably closeted for most of my adult life, but lately it is starting to chafe. Coming out has gone badly in the past and that has made me pretty gun-shy. My parents, I think, believe I grew out of it in my early 20s. I alienated a couple of close friends, one of whom thought I was simply looking for a way out of my marriage. My mother-in-law thinks I'm a pervert. One of my brothers thinks I'm really gay and living a lie. The only person I have told who supports me is my spouse.
As a married father, I worry what people will think of me. I usually do not care what others think about what I do in my own life, but even admitting to this fear on a message board makes me feel ashamed. My own daughter doesn't know. My best friends. I do not know how to tell them but feel an increasing urgency to do so.
Ugh.
I have been comfortably closeted for most of my adult life, but lately it is starting to chafe. Coming out has gone badly in the past and that has made me pretty gun-shy. My parents, I think, believe I grew out of it in my early 20s. I alienated a couple of close friends, one of whom thought I was simply looking for a way out of my marriage. My mother-in-law thinks I'm a pervert. One of my brothers thinks I'm really gay and living a lie. The only person I have told who supports me is my spouse.
As a married father, I worry what people will think of me. I usually do not care what others think about what I do in my own life, but even admitting to this fear on a message board makes me feel ashamed. My own daughter doesn't know. My best friends. I do not know how to tell them but feel an increasing urgency to do so.
Ugh.
tearsofash
Member
Now if we could only convince the internet that asexuality is even real
Milksheikhs
Member
No, no it's not.
Isn't it kind of arrogant as fuck to assume you know someone else better than they know themselves. We accept things all the time people tell us without batting and eyelash. Why is it so hard to just accept if someone tells you they're a man, woman, gender queer, bi, pan, etc? Why?
And another thing: a lot of us lgbtq folks don't give a shit if you don't "like" us because x or y. JUST STOP MURDERING US! STOP JUSTIFYING VIOLENCE AGAINST US! STOP PROMOTING ATTITUDES THAT HELP INCREASE VIOLENCE AGAINST US WHETHER PHYSICAL,SEXUAL,VERBAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL!
Like jfc is that so hard.
You don't need to play Devils advocate cause there's already enough assholes out telling/asking us this shit everyday.
Oh, good explanation.
Also demiman might be better description to me than purely agender. Gender etc. are hellishly complex.
Yup.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Yeah, sincerity and sarcasm are very hard to express via the internet, in my experience.
Trying hard to not offend/insult and still try to find out as much genuine info as I can. I don't mind being called out for ignorance and perceived insults, it's part of the process.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Agreed, it's the one thing I'd edit in it. I substitute sex with gender.
It's a diagram highlighting physical attraction to femininity/masculinity. I am gynephilic, meaning I am attracted to femininity regardless of a person's sex.
the vocal internet is so upset about not being able to get laid that they cant accept anyone just doesnt really like sex in the first place
ive had an okay amount of sex, and i know that it was very flawed and it was not the best environment to get good opinions about how good sex is, but like...i can probably count on one hand the amount of genuine urges to have sex with someone i have had over the last few years
DyslexicAlucard
Member
But transgenderism isn't a delusion. If you're a trans man that was born a woman, you aren't under the delusion that your body parts were always male. It's your brain disagreeing with your body; It's not disagreeing with reality itself. Having a female brain with a male body, while it is rare and can cause a lot of stress and discord, isn't "wrong" and can't be "fixed." How it can be addressed is by a person identifying with their brain's gender and by people having enough common decency to respect that. Claiming that you're being put upon by this is kind of insulting to somehow who has gone through a lot, emotionally, sexually, physiologically and culturally, simply because of how they were born. Remembering and respecting a pronoun hardly qualifies as being "controlled."
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Seen.
I was really only speaking to an example provided by another poster, not using it as my own analogy.
I see... i think.
So. Would i be gynephilic if i note i think female body looks better than male body, or is that just an opinion about aesthetics?
Do note i'm not actually sexually or romantically attracted to anyone.
Milksheikhs
Member
Something else that's always pissed me off is the whole "it's innate, you were born this way" argument. Like I do believe that people don't have a choice in their sexuality, but perhaps their expression of it (and even then not always because of coercion and oppression of lgbtq people).
But what I don't like is, so you're telling me if it was a choice to like both/all genders that would somehow be a problem? Why?
Like who the fuck cares if someone DID choose to like the same gender. They don't, but why should that matter in the first place?
*this isn't at you pashmilla. Just others who try to explain why sexuality/gender is okay solely cause it's biological*
But what I don't like is, so you're telling me if it was a choice to like both/all genders that would somehow be a problem? Why?
Like who the fuck cares if someone DID choose to like the same gender. They don't, but why should that matter in the first place?
*this isn't at you pashmilla. Just others who try to explain why sexuality/gender is okay solely cause it's biological*
curls
Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience ð¤
Sorry to hear about your situation. I find bisexuality hard to deal with without the hassle others give you.
Gender is a "delusion" as much as any social construct is. With your "king" analogy, as slipshod as it is, do you think the idea of a "king", a singular man who has total political and economic power over hundreds of thousands people is any less or more of a delusion? But if enough people go along with that delusion then it becomes reality. Kings aren't innate to human beings, it's a concept we developed over time because it served some social worth to invest in the idea of "kings" as a collective.
This is the foundation of human society, just a bunch of "delusions" everyone agrees are real. And non-binary gender acceptance is just convincing everyone that gender doesn't have to be/isn't binary.
Omegasquash
Member
Come out to safe people. If there's an LGBT community within your workplace, for example. I'm a bisexual married dude with two kids, and my spouse is my best friend, as well as a trustworthy person, so she, and few others, know.
There's also a wholly accepting LGBT community and thread here on GAF. I encourage you to interact with them (I'd say us but I'm not on as much anymore). A safe space to depressurize has been extremely helpful for me.
Do NOT feel shame. At all. You have nothing to be ashamed of. IMO, there's been enough shame pushed on most of us to last a lifetime. Personally, I got tired of that shame. Me being me won't hurt a single person, and you being you won't either.
I appreciate your sharing. It's good to know that there are other folks like me out there.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
The word in this context denotes a sexual attraction. So if it were me I would still use asexual if I wasn't sexually attracted to either gender. I am not into the habit of categorizing other people though, so if you consider yourself gynephilic, then that's what you are to me.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
I did see that later and was gonna pull it back, but you added the trans people "suffering delusions" part to a later post and I felt confident in it again. I'm glad that you were able to understand the topic better though. I know it's tough and it's easy to say something offensive by accident when such a sensitive topic is addressed. I appreciate your genuine interest though, and I hope this thread has helped you understand both the terminology and the frustration LGBT people go through.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Well, part of my point with that analogy was the scale of difference and the fact they aren't equivalent in meaning of repercussion. Calling myself a King is on me and me alone, and no-one is likely to cause me or harm or encourage myself to cause harm because of it. Meanwhile treating someone that identifies as transgender, agender, or whatever other queer identity dismissively helps contribute to the harm they suffer from wider society by delegitmising their right to exist as they wish.
Is this because you are borderline asexual, or a very low or non-existent sex drive caused by other factors (e.g. hormone imbalance, mental health, underlying medical issue, anti-depressants, etc)
ugaboga232
Member
For what it's worth, the medical community has/is accepting most or all of the OP and tries very hard to instill this in med students.
Another point, there is no concept of a choice in biology/neuroscience. There are decisions in which a brain goes one way or another but even that is distinct from a choice in the colloquial sense. The brain is gonna brain just like a kidney is going to kidney and no amount belief otherwise will make that kidney work differently.
Another point, there is no concept of a choice in biology/neuroscience. There are decisions in which a brain goes one way or another but even that is distinct from a choice in the colloquial sense. The brain is gonna brain just like a kidney is going to kidney and no amount belief otherwise will make that kidney work differently.
I don't see any issues choosing to be something... other than that it is unlikely to work.
I'm not sexually attracted to others, kinda hard to choose to be attracted. Likewise, i could claim i'm female. I certainly have liberty to say that, but i don't think it changes things in me. Naturally, my opinion. Maybe choosing actually works for others.
That said, if someone insist they're X, i'm not going to question it, unless it seems to be affecting their mental health somehow.
So, it is aesthetic opinion really. I guess. Attraction is hard to explain in words, especially when i lack it in the usual senses.
dont know, not really too concerned about it tbh. it might be worth exploring if i had any plans to get into a relationship where someone might have sexual expectations of me but uh....relationships that exist seem not to be a problem in my life these days, ha....
edit: i guess i can say that when i was in relationships i didnt really seek out sex with my partner much either, to their dismay, but i still dont know if thats just a mental health or lack of interest in my partner kind of thing. i find sex sort of tiresome and uncomfortable
This is really important. Whether it's a choice or not, fucking respect other people's genders and sexualities. Some chose them, others did not. It really doesn't fucking matter.
Please remember that when engaging on these topics you are often dealing with people who are routinely attacked, belittled, or ridiculed on the basis of sexuality or gender identity. Often times these attacks are couched in terms of "just asking questions" in the way that you will often see when people try to make discriminatory points about religious or racial minorities. Defensiveness is part and parcel to these discussions because of how often "honest inquiry" is held up as a shield for demeaning rhetoric.
To address your earlier question about why you should respect someone's self perception of gender, please consider it an important exercise in empathy. Take it as an opportunity to realize that there are people who you will interact with who have a fundamentally different life experience from your own. The self experience of gender is not something that is done for attention or a quest to control other's perceptions of you, it is a fundamental part of how you perceive yourself. Someone who experiences their self in a way that is not reflective of external expectations of them is not something that can be easily imagined. If you interact with someone who requests to be referred to by a particular name, gender identifier, or pronoun set, they are asking you to help them reconcile a contradiction between their internal self and external perceptions so that they can be more secure in their identity. It costs you nothing to do them the courtesy of complying.
To turn it around, ask yourself why it would be necessary for you to assert your own beliefs about someone's identity over their own. Try to imagine how you would feel if someone insisted on categorizing you in a way that you knew not to be true.
These conversations can be exhausting, and attitudes can be brittle because it can feel like the same argument simply goes on forever. Empathy is important and is essential if you actually want to understand the issue.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Precisely. If it isn't a choice, then you can't blame anyone for it (which honestly you shouldn't anyway). If it is a choice, so long as they're not causing harm - which hetero people cause all the damned time - then why be bothered by it?
See, this is where I'm lost. Transgenderism exists, certainly. But if a person with a male body and a male brain - someone who is NOT transgender - nonetheless feels like a woman and identifies as such, shouldn't their gender identity still be accepted? Or does that qualify as "delusion?"
If the former, that line of reasoning doesn't make sense - gender is a purely psychological phenomenon with no physical grounding. If it's the latter, well, that just doesn't sit well with me. It's no different than basing gender purely on chromosomes.
While I agree with you 100%, I think OP should have went with a title that was a little less aggressive by calling everyone who isn't in the know "idiots". Especially since this thread is about respect.
Very interesting read OP. Thank you for the information.
echoshifting
Banned
Thanks Omega, I am grateful for your reply.
ugaboga232
Member
What do you mean no physical grounding? How else do you think without your brain? All psychology has physical grounding.
In the sense that there isn't an objective, measurable "metric" for gender. It can't be determined by any means other than an individual's self-interpretation.
Which is to say that the phrases "I was born female" and "I have a female brain" and "I own a dress" all equally have no bearing on gender.
It was directed a specific idiot, but he is now banned
Fair enough. I saw his post in the other thread. Thank you.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Thank you for this post.
I never meant to imply that anybody has ground to refuse somebody to be referred to as per their preference. It was a question about reciprocal acceptance more than anything. To demand understanding or acceptance of everybody is impossible, to expect empathy and common courtesy is something else, and should absolutely be the case.
I apologize if the question came across as anything other than a fundamental analysis of the concept of acceptance rather than something pertaining 100% to gender/sexuality relationships and societal/individual attitudes, since that's a bit off topic, anyways.
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