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[Stumpokapow]

Bull. In England, you will appreciate hospitals and doctors as services paid for through taxes, like the police, firefighters, and snow removal from roads.

Also, you will experience a flat 5 euros fee per prescription (correct me if I'm wrong). And you won't need to wait 45 minutes between dropping of your prescription and picking it up because there'll be no need to verify you're covered

well for one england doesn't use "euros" as a currency

 

[Seanspeed]

Bull. In England, you will appreciate hospitals and doctors as services paid for through taxes, like the police, firefighters, and snow removal from roads.

Also, you will experience a flat 5 pound fee per prescription (correct me if I'm wrong). And you won't need to wait 45 minutes between dropping of your prescription and picking it up because there'll be no need to verify you're covered

I'm sure I'll appreciate it, but thats different from the actual quality of care.

After dealing with the US healthcare system, I can handle that compromise, though. I owe over $15,000 in medical costs without ever having any sort of grave injuries or illnesses.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

England. I realize individual care doesn't tend to be as good as in the US, but its not going to destroy me financially.

you have better care than I do. I won't go to the doctor unless it's an emergency because of costs.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I'm sure I'll appreciate it, but thats different from the actual quality of care.

After dealing with the US healthcare system, I can handle that compromise, though. I owe over $15,000 in medical costs without ever having any sort of grave injuries or illnesses.

Do you think Stephen Hawking has received poor health care?

Do you understand that, outside of the US, there is basically no such thing as a "medical bill" in any developed nation?


WITH insurance, I had to pay $700 for a testicular ultrasound last year after I noticed a lump. And that was after a 2 week wait. And that was after talking to 4 different receptionists until I got one that would schedule me sooner than 6 weeks out (enough time for a testicular tumor to quadruple in size, spread to other parts of the body, and advance to stage 2 or 3 cancer). This is how OUR country operates. In England, I'm pretty sure the NHS won't tell a 24 year old male to wait a few months to get a lump on his balls checked out. And they sure as hell won't charge you money for it.

America isn't all you think it is. The care isn't better, cheaper, or quicker.

 

[WARCOCK]

Do you think Stephen Hawking has received poor health care?

Yeah. When people bring up the virtues of superior technology and expertise in american healthcare it's usually very specialized stuff. Stuff the typical individual probably won't need in their entire life, I think. Receiving care when you aren't critical or in danger can be long though, at least it was in Quebec(IIRC it's one of the more dysfunctional UCH systems).

 

[bonercop]

I'm sure I'll appreciate it, but thats different from the actual quality of care.

After dealing with the US healthcare system, I can handle that compromise, though. I owe over $15,000 in medical costs without ever having any sort of grave injuries or illnesses.

I dunno if this is actually true, though. I heard US does better with cancer treatment, and that's pretty much it.

Can someone clear this up?

 

[jmdajr]

Do you think Stephen Hawking has received poor health care?

Do you understand that, outside of the US, there is basically no such thing as a "medical bill" in any developed nation?


WITH insurance, I had to pay $700 for a testicular ultrasound last year after I noticed a lump. And that was after a 2 week wait. And that was after talking to 4 different receptionists until I got one that would schedule me sooner than 6 weeks out (enough time for a testicular tumor to quadruple in size, spread to other parts of the body, and advance to stage 2 or 3 cancer). This is how OUR country operates. In England, I'm pretty sure the NHS won't tell a 24 year old male to wait a few months to get a lump on his balls checked out. And they sure as hell won't charge you money for it.

America isn't all you think it is. The care isn't better, cheaper, or quicker.

I was diagnosed,tested, and operated for testicle cancer all within a matter of a week.

So far I have paid about.... 350 bucks. I do need more treatment, but yeah without Insurance I would be screwed.
(well if I was in some 3rd world country then I would probbaly just die)

<--Houston, Texas.

 

[Cubsfan23]

Got charged 438 bucks for a finger splint and xrays. Not going to the hospital again until obamacare comes into effect. Its stupid for doctors to protest obamacare when people are just going to start declaring bankruptcy at the rate costs are going

 

[Stinkles]

England. I realize individual care doesn't tend to be as good as in the US, but its not going to destroy me financially.

This isn't true. I lived in the UK and in America for twenty years each. The main difference is that nobody in England asks you for insurance or proof of ability to pay when you arrive in the ER with a trauma. After that it's down to the quality of the individuals helping you.

 

[Ra\/en]

Got charged 438 bucks for a finger splint and xrays. Not going to the hospital again until obamacare comes into effect. Its stupid for doctors to protest obamacare when people are just going to start declaring bankruptcy at the rate costs are going

Doctors don't even get much of that money that the hospital etc charges you. I'm pretty sure the overhead for doctors is horribly high in the U.S. Add malpractice onto that, and many docs (especially family docs and gen peds) don't make as much as you think.

 

[ronito]

I was diagnosed,tested, and operated for testicle cancer all within a matter of a week.

So far I have paid about.... 350 bucks. I do need more treatment, but yeah without Insurance I would be screwed.
(well if I was in some 3rd world country then I would probbaly just die)

<--Houston, Texas.

Wait.

 

[Seanspeed]

Do you think Stephen Hawking has received poor health care?

Do you understand that, outside of the US, there is basically no such thing as a "medical bill" in any developed nation?


WITH insurance, I had to pay $700 for a testicular ultrasound last year after I noticed a lump. And that was after a 2 week wait. And that was after talking to 4 different receptionists until I got one that would schedule me sooner than 6 weeks out (enough time for a testicular tumor to quadruple in size, spread to other parts of the body, and advance to stage 2 or 3 cancer). This is how OUR country operates. In England, I'm pretty sure the NHS won't tell a 24 year old male to wait a few months to get a lump on his balls checked out. And they sure as hell won't charge you money for it.

America isn't all you think it is. The care isn't better, cheaper, or quicker.

I never said it was 'poor' healthcare. No need for strawman arguments.

My mom has lived in the US and England for sizeable amounts of time and she says that the level of personal care tends to be better in the US, as most people have family doctors and everything, but in England, people have better and cheaper access to care.

I've heard similar things elsewhere.

 

[dojokun]

It would be devestating to private businesses. I guess that is why they are spending billions lobbying to prevent UHC from happening.

Definitely. The biggest losers are going to be the private insurance companies and the pharmaceuticals. With just the government paying, like they do with medicare, they'll be able to negotiate much lower prices. The system is fucked and many people realize it but I don't know when we'll see enough changes. ACA is a start but no where near enough.

FYI, my post on the first page:

Go here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H03

Scroll down to the part where it says "Party Split."

Notice how they typically favor Republicans, but in campaign years where the Dems are pushing a health care bill (Clinton's and Obama's bills), they donated more to Dems than Repubs. That should tell you all you need to know about how they expect the health care bill to affect them. So I don't buy all this bullshit about how the ACA is going to take away a lot of profit or regulate them to hell.

 

[Loki]

All health professionals get payed too much here, even if it's not one of the main etiologies of our problems.

Health care professionals (i.e., nurses, doctors etc.) in the US do not get paid "too much," and in fact many of them don't get paid enough. General surgeons in a place like NYC, for instance, average roughly $215K. If you do a job analysis for surgeons the same way HR departments and recruiting firms do to determine compensation levels for any other profession, you'd see that they're quite underpaid for their skill set, education, and the rigors of the job. Ditto for most general practitioners (internists, pediatricians etc.).

Ortho/neurosurgeons make bank, but then again, they devote like 10-12 years AFTER college to get where they are.

 

[CyclopsRock]

So long as health care is a for-profit enterprise, companies providing it will attempt to maximize profit.

That's true - of course - but that's different to suggesting that, as a result, prices will always be redonculously high. The competitive forces have made clothing, food, consumer electronics etc much cheaper to the consumer whilst the companies that produce these goods have been seeking profit. The problem with the US healthcare system is not that the companies seek profit, or that its importance to people somehow nullifies its ability to succumb to usual market trends (afterall, food is also pretty important to our lives). The problem is that the US has a system of laws and regulations that are actively there to benefit the large insurance companies and healthcare providers at the expense of the people. I think we should be wary of pointing the finger at the fact these are profit seeking companies when that's not what actually causes the problem in the first place.

 

[WARCOCK]

Health care professionals (i.e., nurses, doctors etc.) in the US do not get paid "too much," and in fact many of them don't get paid enough. General surgeons in a place like NYC, for instance, average roughly $215K. If you do a job analysis for surgeons the same way HR departments and recruiting firms do to determine compensation levels for any other profession, you'd see that they're quite underpaid for their skill set, education, and the rigors of the job. Ditto for most general practitioners (internists, pediatricians etc.).

Ortho/neurosurgeons make bank, but then again, they devote like 10-12 years AFTER college to get where they are.

Relatively to other professions, in our country, i would agree with you. But they get payed much more than in other western countries for comparable training and work. Again i don't think it's one of the core issues affecting the industry. It's worth noting though that we have huge loans to pay off versus our european counterparts that pay pennies, so i guess it's somewhat reasonable.

 

[kmag]

Do you think Stephen Hawking has received poor health care?

Do you understand that, outside of the US, there is basically no such thing as a "medical bill" in any developed nation?


WITH insurance, I had to pay $700 for a testicular ultrasound last year after I noticed a lump. And that was after a 2 week wait. And that was after talking to 4 different receptionists until I got one that would schedule me sooner than 6 weeks out (enough time for a testicular tumor to quadruple in size, spread to other parts of the body, and advance to stage 2 or 3 cancer). This is how OUR country operates. In England, I'm pretty sure the NHS won't tell a 24 year old male to wait a few months to get a lump on his balls checked out. And they sure as hell won't charge you money for it.

America isn't all you think it is. The care isn't better, cheaper, or quicker.

The national NHS target for cancer referrals from gps is 14 days with most being seen within 8.

There's a 62 target from initial referral to first treatment with majority undergoing treatment within 31 days of initial referral.

The NHS gets a bad rap mostly due to years of chronic under investment in the 80s and 90s but labour pumped money into it and its vastly improved. We British like to moan about it but I've yet to meet anyone who would change it up that much.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

That's true - of course - but that's different to suggesting that, as a result, prices will always be redonculously high. The competitive forces have made clothing, food, consumer electronics etc much cheaper to the consumer whilst the companies that produce these goods have been seeking profit. The problem with the US healthcare system is not that the companies seek profit, or that its importance to people somehow nullifies its ability to succumb to usual market trends (afterall, food is also pretty important to our lives). The problem is that the US has a system of laws and regulations that are actively there to benefit the large insurance companies and healthcare providers at the expense of the people. I think we should be wary of pointing the finger at the fact these are profit seeking companies when that's not what actually causes the problem in the first place.

the biggest issue is for profit health care.

You can't have for profit health care. There's no competition. A customer can't opt out. That's the biggest issue, the other things are just additional problems that exist because the system is privatized.

Think about cause and effect. Those laws exist because health care is for profit.

 

[ronito]

I think pay comes to it mainly in upfront costs.
People in america like to complain about doctor's pay. However, they forget that to go through medical school you'll end up with $250k in student loans at least, practically guaranteed.

I agree we could use to equalize doctor's salaries with the rest of the world. But then the problem is you can't do that otherwise no one could afford to be a doctor.

The main problem is we use healthcare as a market commodity. That means that everyone is out to make as much as they can from the employees to operational people to CEOs. And unlike other industries where salaries and costs are mitigated by what the market will bear healthcare doesn't work like that. When people's lives are on the line the market will bear almost anything.

 

[Jhriad]

Good thing we fixed all this with Obama Care.

Good thing a single payer system that would have been able to force costs down to reasonable levels was shot down.

 

[kmag]

Health care professionals (i.e., nurses, doctors etc.) in the US do not get paid "too much," and in fact many of them don't get paid enough. General surgeons in a place like NYC, for instance, average roughly $215K. If you do a job analysis for surgeons the same way HR departments and recruiting firms do to determine compensation levels for any other profession, you'd see that they're quite underpaid for their skill set, education, and the rigors of the job. Ditto for most general practitioners (internists, pediatricians etc.).

Ortho/neurosurgeons make bank, but then again, they devote like 10-12 years AFTER college to get where they are.

Part of the us problem is that the 'support industry' around the healthcare professionals is large and extremely well paid. The time story has hospital middle managers on more than the chief executive of the entire British NHS. Never mind the amounts paid to staff the billing departments.

 

[CyclopsRock]

the biggest issue is for profit health care.

You can't have for profit health care. There's no competition. A customer can't opt out. That's the biggest issue, the other things are just additional problems that exist because the system is privatized.

Think about cause and effect. Those laws exist because health care is for profit.

You can't opt-out of having food, either. That's not non-for-profit, and the general cost of food has continued to go down as a tend. In the US there isn't anywhere near as much competition as there should be, because of the aforementioned laws and regulations that, for example, inhibit the ability of insurance companies to operate in more than one state.

 

[ronito]

That's true - of course - but that's different to suggesting that, as a result, prices will always be redonculously high. The competitive forces have made clothing, food, consumer electronics etc much cheaper to the consumer whilst the companies that produce these goods have been seeking profit. The problem with the US healthcare system is not that the companies seek profit, or that its importance to people somehow nullifies its ability to succumb to usual market trends (afterall, food is also pretty important to our lives). The problem is that the US has a system of laws and regulations that are actively there to benefit the large insurance companies and healthcare providers at the expense of the people. I think we should be wary of pointing the finger at the fact these are profit seeking companies when that's not what actually causes the problem in the first place.

Spoken like someone trying to put the idea of a market into healthcare. Study after study has shown that healthcare works in reverse to normal markets. The more supply there is the more demand there is. And likening it to food is silly and shows how little libertopians understand the problem. Hunger can be satiated by any number of foods or companies. To make your analogy true it'd be like going to the grocery store after you run out of food and person at the front says, "Welcome to the grocery store. You're hungry?" then takes your cart away and you don't know what they're going to buy, how much they're going to buy, or how much it'll cost. All you know is this is your only place to get food. If you go to anywhere else you might get rotten food or it might be even more expensive.

Yes there are lots of laws and regulations around healthcare. I've worked in healthcare pretty extensively, I know. But that's because if you get it wrong, people die. There should be laws and regulations and yes, they should seem pretty strenuous. But to claim it's law and regulations is damned silly. When working in multi-national healthcare you'll do the work once for America and then once for Europe and the rest of the world. Why? Because Europe and the rest of the world tend to have far stricter regulations than america. If you're going to pull the regulations bit, you'd have to account for why isn't Europe's costs higher by several factors.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Spoken like someone trying to put the idea of a market into healthcare. Study after study has shown that healthcare works in reverse to normal markets. The more supply there is the more demand there is. And likening it to food is silly and shows how little libertopians understand the problem. Hunger can be satiated by any number of foods or companies. To make your analogy true it'd be like going to the grocery store after you run out of food and person at the front says, "Welcome to the grocery store. You're hungry?" then takes your cart away and you don't know what they're going to buy, how much they're going to buy, or how much it'll cost. All you know is this is your only place to get food. If you go to anywhere else you might get rotten food or it might be even more expensive.

As much as I appreciate the "libertopians" label, I actually support universal healthcare, just not in the same way it works in the UK, Canada etc. But my proposed system wouldn't involve anyone going without on the basis of money. It would, however, allow for profit seeking companies to be involved (in the same way that all doctors, nurses, MRI equipment manufacturers etc are all profit seeking in the current universal systems around the world.) And your interpretation of my analogy (I wasn't really making an analogy, just saying that something being important to ones health is not the same as it being special with regards to the market) only works in a world without insurance. In the analogy, you aren't going to the grocery store to barter for an apple, you're going there to barter for a membership to an all you can eat buffet.

Yes there are lots of laws and regulations around healthcare. I've worked in healthcare pretty extensively, I know. But that's because if you get it wrong, people die. There should be laws and regulations and yes, they should seem pretty strenuous. But to claim it's law and regulations is damned silly. When working in multi-national healthcare you'll do the work once for America and then once for Europe and the rest of the world. Why? Because Europe and the rest of the world tend to have far stricter regulations than america. If you're going to pull the regulations bit, you'd have to account for why isn't Europe's costs higher by several factors.

I wasn't talking about those regulations. I wasn't saying we need to cut the red tape and everything will be fine, though given you referred to me as a "libertopian" I can see why you would immediately jump to that conclusion despite my not saying anything like that. I was referring to the numerous bits of legislation around insurance companies in the US that are actively anti-competition and which contribute significantly to the problem of people often not having an alternative (and thus there's no competition to drive down prices).

 

[Zzoram]

The real criminal thing here is that these hospitals are non-profit and don't even pay taxes.

A non-profit just means they don't pay money out to shareholders and they have to reinvest all the money they generate into their business. A non-profit can still overcharge people and pay their executives ridiculous salaries.

 

[ronito]

I wasn't talking about those regulations. I wasn't saying we need to cut the red tape and everything will be fine, though given you referred to me as a "libertopian" I can see why you would immediately jump to that conclusion despite my not saying anything like that. I was referring to the numerous bits of legislation around insurance companies in the US that are actively anti-competition and which contribute significantly to the problem of people often not having an alternative (and thus there's no competition to drive down prices).

Can you give me an example of such?
I know the medical world imposes ridiculous rules on themselves (crazy work hours, huge residency requirements, ridiculous requirements for out of country doctors to certify to work in the US). But the government doesn't have much say in that. They just say "The docs must be certified" rules for certification are (probably fortunately) out of congress's hands.

I'm totally for that being streamlined however, I don't believe that'll lead to big savings. I have several friends that are doctors. And all of them, except one, has given up having their own practice to practice under a large conglomerate. The reason being that sure they'll make less money but they get vacation and don't have to worry about logistics. So it doesn't really matter if someone is willing to come and work for half the price. The cost/stress of running that will eventually drive them out of the market or to the conglomerates and they aren't lowering their rates.

 

[Zzoram]

Higher taxes would be offset by not having to pay so much for health insurance. We would see an increase, but not nearly as big as many think so.



It is scary to think how many of us are one accident away from bankruptcy, even with insurance.

Ya, the taxes might end up a bit more than private health insurance, but universal single payer healthcare has tremendous value. People no longer wait until they're bleeding out of their eyes before they go to the doctor so medical problems can be treated early before they become insanely expensive.

Also, every child having healthcare goes a long way towards setting a more equal playing field in life and makes it more likely that poor but hard working people can move up in life.

Every single payer universal healthcare system in the world is more cost effective than the US system, so there's also that.

 

[PrimaNocta]

A few years back I woke up one morning with pain in my chest I never felt before. Fearing it might be my heart I drove myself to the ER. I was waited 30 mins in my "room" before a doctor saw me. He used his stethoscope for under a min on my chest, decided I should get an X-Ray to make sure. After the X-ray he came back & said I was fine & I just need to take some aspirin and pain will go away.

On the way out I had to see the cashier. Bill was $965!!!...lol....I couldn't believe I was being charged almost a grand just for an X-ray(that I didn't want) & to tell me to take some aspirin.

I left her a $5 bill & left.

 

[CharlieDigital]

It's meant to creep towards it.

The problem with UHC is the all the private insurance companies would go out of business.. and they are highly profitable businesses.

You can harm them.

False dichotomy

Many -- if not all -- countries with UHC still have private health insurance companies.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I had a panic attack and passed out after throwing up everywhere, my wife drove me to the ER. I was sat on a bed and given water and a single tranquilizer, they also gave me a chest Xray while I was passed out. The bill was 2000 dollars, my health coverage is the VA. They refuse to pay it and the hospital added a 200 dollar additional fee for the denial of coverage. Fuck hospitals, I never even spoke to a doctor while there.

 

[J2d]

It's funny. You hear people on TV talking about 'socialized healthcare' like it's a dirty word, but I can drive a few hours north into Vancouver, BC and it's just a fantastic place, and IMO, is more 'American' than the system we have currently.

In 1988, I was born at 30 weeks. Just the birth was over $100K (It had 18 attending nurses, doctors, and specialists).

I shudder to think of what the bill was when you take into accout the 6-8 weeks I stayed in the hospital afterwards and the 3 months of bedrest my mother had leading up to my birth.

Outside of people not affording healthcare this must have negative effect on peoples well being though? I mean if had to go around and worry about getting in debt if something ever happened to me I'd go insane.

 

[The Technomancer]

False dichotomy

Many -- if not all -- countries with UHC still have private health insurance companies.

Which really is how government services are supposed to work. The USPS hasn't prevented the growth of FedEx and UPS. The point is to offer a baseline service to all citizens that private companies must then exceed if they want to remain competitive. To drive up the standards of service.

 

[bonercop]

False dichotomy

Many -- if not all -- countries with UHC still have private health insurance companies.

To be fair, they're pretty terrible here as well. Everytime we try to privatize a public service in holland costs go up, shit gets more needlessly complicated and quality drops.

 

[empty vessel]

Thank god somebody finally wrote this article.

 

[oneils]

I don't understand how their $469/month plan didn't have an annual out-of-pocket limit. Or did they just ignore all the other cancer treatment centers that would take their insurance in favor of the best one, which didn't?

Anyway, reminds me of this.

That's exactly what they did. Its explained in the article. They were from Ohio but decided to go to one of the best cancer clinics, apparently, in the country. It was located in houston.

 

[jambo]

It boggles my mind to think about this sort of thing.

My missus had her appendix out last year after she started having pains and we thought we may as well go in the hospital. She was operated on and was in the hospital for a few days and we only paid for the medication that she took home afterwards.

She even had a free check-up visit.


One thing I wanted to check up about was doctor visits. I was sick earlier this week and needed a certificate for work. I went in and had an appointment, turns out it's a virus so it's just rest and fluids. The appointment cost me $0. How much would it be in the US?


btw: Aussie here.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Outside of people not affording healthcare this must have negative effect on peoples well being though? I mean if had to go around and worry about getting in debt if something ever happened to me I'd go insane.

Yes. Many people avoid going to doctors even if sick or injured due to high costs.
And it's likely that lots of people suffering from depression or other mental illness are untreated due to this as well.

 

[NervousXtian]

It boggles my mind to think about this sort of thing.

My missus had her appendix out last year after she started having pains and we thought we may as well go in the hospital. She was operated on and was in the hospital for a few days and we only paid for the medication that she took home afterwards.

She even had a free check-up visit.


One thing I wanted to check up about was doctor visits. I was sick earlier this week and needed a certificate for work. I went in and had an appointment, turns out it's a virus so it's just rest and fluids. The appointment cost me $0. How much would it be in the US?


btw: Aussie here.

Depends on with or without insurance... and keep in mind insurance isn't cheap.. even if employer provided.

With my family insurance that is about $400/mo for my family (and 4-600 covered by my employer) I'd be in for 20% up to $2,000 for the top scenario.. so probably $2k.

Second scenario would cost me $30 co-pay.

Keep in mind, that's on top of the $4,800 (pre-tax) I pay for insurance to begin with, and another $5-6k I don't see on my check because it's paid by employer likely in lieu of higher pay.

So, yeah.. quite a bit of money... more than I'd likely pay extra in taxes per month.

 

[oneils]

Reading through the article. Fascinating stuff. Just realised its by Steven Brill - the founder of Court TV and PressPlus. Didn't know he was still doing articles. Good stuff.

edit: here is a great story on how the article ended up on time:

How Brill's Health Care Opus Ended Up on Time instead of the New Republic

2nd edit: ooooh, this article has all the dirt: Steven Brill Calls New Republic Owner Chris Hughes A &#8216;Liar' After Falling Out Over Cover Story

 

[Cubsfan23]

When I had my (premature) twins and they finally came out of the hospital, the final bill came out to over a MILLION dollars.

Yeah, I'm not surprised at all by the headline.

people should go to jail for even trying to charge this.

 

[dojokun]

False dichotomy

Many -- if not all -- countries with UHC still have private health insurance companies.

I think by "UHC" he meant specifically single payor. His point is that a single payor system in America would either force American health insurance companies out of business, or reduce them to a small niche market.

 

[surrogate]

I work in radiology. Even being exposed to this one slice of the medical world, I can tell you they ARE making up shit.

Here in California, insurance companies pay anywhere from roughly $400 to $550 for an MRI without contrast. Add another $100 or so for "with contrast." The type type of MRI is actually the first two done one after the other, "without and then with contrast." But it's considered a third type because MRI providers provide this option as a cheap package to get people to order it. It has its own CPT code. The price of this is about another $100 on top of the MRI with contrast.

So in CA expect insurance companies to pay like 500/600/700 (price of without/with/without and then with contrast) on average.

Over in Oregon, insurance companies are paying something like 800/900/1000 on average.

Why the discrepancy? MRI machines cost more in Oregon? MRI techs, radiologists, and other medical staff paid way more in Oregon? Medical companies taxed way more?

No. It's supply and demand.

On top of that, search the internet for stories about people getting charged thousands of dollars for an MRI. Even on NeoGAF I remember someone saying something like they were charged $8000 for one. At a bar here in LA a guy I met told me he was charged $5k for a CT scan. (CT scans are actually CHEAPER than MRI scans. Here in CA on average the insurance companies are paying like, 275/325/375 or so for a CT scan for without/with/without and then with contrast). My barber told me an MRI costs $15000, based on the fact that he was charged that much for one. I didn't have the heart to inform him of what insurance companies are paying.

You will also notice that the high prices people are paying are not consistent. My barber was charged $15k while other people are charged $8k or sometimes $1k. When charging the patient, the medical providers make that number up based on their individual thinking. When charging insurance companies, they have to deal with a market value, because insurance companies have the luxury of having some leverage in negotiating. Insurance companies negotiate rates from the comfort of their desk, before they send any patients over to the medical providers. Patients standing at the receptionist counter of an MRI provider are not in the same position.

If that was too long to read, just read this: Medical providers charge you thousands of dollars for radiology scans that insurance companies pay hundreds of dollars for.

If you want some proof that MRIs and CTs don't cost as much as people are getting charged, go to look up Medicare rates. It shows you how much the government pays for an MRI, a CT, or any other operation covered in Medicare. I just happen to work in radiology and can tell you that insurance companies pay a couple hundred more for an MRI than what the government pays. Individual people often pay thousands more.


The prices will not go down if the industry remains for-profit. That's why the only type of UHC that will work is the single payor. UHC in the form of making everyone buy insurance from for-profit companies (like the ACA does) will do nothing to lower costs.

Last year I was having some abdominal pain for about a week and gave in and went to see the doctor. She suggested I get a CT scan and that I should shop around to get the best price since I don't have any insurance.

So I drive over to AMI and hand the cute girl at the reception desk the prescription, she looks it up on the computer and tells me it cost $2500. As I am standing there in stunned disbelief, she gestures me to come closer and whispers to me to ask for a discount. So I do, she goes into the back to talk to someone and comes back a few minutes later and hands me a slip of paper with $500 written on it. I then stop at the second place (Jersey Shore Radiology) where I go through a similar sequence of events, $1600 knocked down to $475. At the final center I stop at (Open MRI), the receptionist give me a price of $1750. Thinking that I know how this game works now, I inquire about a discount and she tells me that is the discounted price. I laughed at her and left.

I ended up choosing AMI as it was worth the extra $25 to see the cute receptionist again and not have to fill out all the paperwork since I had been there previously for an ultrasound.

 

[dojokun]

Last year I was having some abdominal pain for about a week and gave in and went to see the doctor. She suggested I get a CT scan and that I should shop around to get the best price since I don't have any insurance.

So I drive over to AMI and hand the cute girl at the reception desk the prescription, she looks it up on the computer and tells me it cost $2500. As I am standing there in stunned disbelief, she gestures me to come closer and whispers to me to ask for a discount. So I do, she goes into the back to talk to someone and comes back a few minutes later and hands me a slip of paper with $500 written on it. I then stop at the second place (Jersey Shore Radiology) where I go through a similar sequence of events, $1600 knocked down to $475. At the final center I stop at (Open MRI), the receptionist give me a price of $1750. Thinking that I know how this game works now, I inquire about a discount and she tells me that is the discounted price. I laughed at her and left.

I ended up choosing AMI as it was worth the extra $25 to see the cute receptionist again and not have to fill out all the paperwork since I had been there previously for an ultrasound.

I didn't know that radiology providers did discounts, or that it was as simple as asking for it. Thanks for the tip! (in case I know someone who might need it). Though I'm confused why they even offer it...

 

[surrogate]

I didn't know that radiology providers did discounts, or that it was as simple as asking for it. Thanks for the tip! (in case I know someone who might need it). Though I'm confused why they even offer it...

I guess it was as much or more than they would get from an insurance company, so they are still making a profit and they don't have to be bothered with submitting a bill.

 

[dojokun]

I guess it was as much or more than they would get from an insurance company, so they are still making a profit and they don't have to be bothered with submitting a bill.

Yeah it does sound in line with what insurance companies would pay. Just surprised that two of the three places you went to knock it all the way down that far just for asking for a discount.

Still proves my point that they charge you what they charge because they CAN, not because everything costs so much.

 

[Yasae]

I was diagnosed,tested, and operated for testicle cancer all within a matter of a week.

So far I have paid about.... 350 bucks. I do need more treatment, but yeah without Insurance I would be screwed.
(well if I was in some 3rd world country then I would probbaly just die)

<--Houston, Texas.

Key.

And Houston has the largest conglomeration of hospitals in the world. You think they would've figured out a way to subsidize costs...

 

[Homeboyd]

Last year I was having some abdominal pain for about a week and gave in and went to see the doctor. She suggested I get a CT scan and that I should shop around to get the best price since I don't have any insurance.

So I drive over to AMI and hand the cute girl at the reception desk the prescription, she looks it up on the computer and tells me it cost $2500. As I am standing there in stunned disbelief, she gestures me to come closer and whispers to me to ask for a discount. So I do, she goes into the back to talk to someone and comes back a few minutes later and hands me a slip of paper with $500 written on it. I then stop at the second place (Jersey Shore Radiology) where I go through a similar sequence of events, $1600 knocked down to $475. At the final center I stop at (Open MRI), the receptionist give me a price of $1750. Thinking that I know how this game works now, I inquire about a discount and she tells me that is the discounted price. I laughed at her and left.

I ended up choosing AMI as it was worth the extra $25 to see the cute receptionist again and not have to fill out all the paperwork since I had been there previously for an ultrasound.

Depends on who the facility is contracted with. They aren't just making up charges. These places have set fee schedules depending on which payers they're contracted with. High charges like that are there for out of network payers processing through payer networks that reimburse really well... They never anticipate collecting those amounts. Really it comes down to your insurance plan, but it's always a good idea to see which facilities are in network with your insurance before deciding on where to have the procedure performed.

Often times the OON facilities will do exactly what you said, offer discounts to keep you at their facility. Gotta shop around for he best deal like you would do for anything else you're paying for.

 

[Yasae]

Depends on who the facility is contracted with. They aren't just making up charges. These places have set fee schedules depending on which payers they're contracted with. High charges like that are there for out of network payers processing through payer networks that reimburse really well... They never anticipate collecting those amounts. Really it comes down to your insurance plan, but it's always a good idea to see which facilities are in network with your insurance before deciding on where to have the procedure performed.

Often times the OON facilities will do exactly what you said, offer discounts to keep you at their facility. Gotta shop around for he best deal like you would do for anything else you're paying for.

All that translates to is a giant markup. Bad business is passing the buck like hospitals do. There are a lot of forces at work, however.

 

[cryptic]

Shit like this is why I'm joining the foreign legion if I can. My kids are not going to grow up in this shit wreck hell catering solely to the rich.

 

[Homeboyd]

All that translates to is a giant markup. Bad business is passing the buck like hospitals do. There are a lot of forces at work, however.

Of course, that's exactly what it is. They mark them up for the off-chance they get a similar case that happens to be workers comp or a payer accessed through a contracted network that pays 80, 90 or even 100% billed charges. That's why contracted payers and government funded payers have % allowables. You can bill one of these patients a million dollars and they're only paying what they're contracted to pay (the allowable). In OON situations, the patient is responsible for the difference, so naturally you don't want your charges too high or the pt gets stuck with the bill and would naturally turn to another facility. Most of what I'm talking about is elective. When it isn't elective, but rather a medical necessity, it's a completely different situation.

On the other hand people in hospitals have to be treated if it's a medical necessity whether or not they get paid. Hospitals way overcharge for services because they can... Outpatient surgery centers, while for profit, operate under global fees regulated by the government and don't line item bill so care is much more affordable. A lot of people don't like the idea of going to a physician owned center to have their procedure (i.e. paying the Dr and making him money for his business), but the flip side is that it's much cheaper... Oh and you're not in a county run hospital.

Kind of went on a tangent there, but you're right... They mark them up like that for the one patient out of 100 that has a payer paying a % of billed charges rather than operating under an allowed amount.