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[walking fiend]

I don't believe stricter gun control will be solving all the tensions that lead to use of violence, and that focusing on gun control is simply turning a blind eye to the real issue(s) here.

One of such issues is that a large portion of the population in the US are racist or at least are not willing to take a firm stand against it [otherwise they would avoid voting for racist nominees].

Not that it is simply the average American's fault*, or that every white person is Racist and every person who is minority is not racist, but the deeply rooted racism is the reality which the American need to accept responsibility for and come up with a plan to systematically address it. Just encouraging people to be less racist in your speeches after each time that there is an incident has not and is not going to suffice.

*I was at a lecture recently by a distinguished anthropologist from university of Chicago or Washington, can't remember which, who was trying to argue that it is OK to be poor (and many other things), because some people are actually happy to be poor (and many other things). Ironically enough though, in the end he showed some graphs to prove that the gap between the rich and poor is not as large as people claim... and I was wondering, if he believes that gap is not important, why is he so adamant to prove that the gap is decreasing?

Edit: I am not against strict gun control; however, I don't see it possible to focus on it without losing focus on the more important matter at hand here. Specially because even with strict gun control, it doesn't mean police will be disarmed.

 

[Volimar]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Gun laws are a part of the problem. A large one. And I say that having been around guns and even owning an AK-74 in the past.

But yes, there are other lingering issues that weren't solved with the stroke of the pen in 1967. While there has been some progress, it clearly is not enough.

 

[kiguel182]

Maybe there's more than one problem.

 

[Calderc]

Racism (though not to the same degree), mental illness, poverty and all the scape goats you like to blame this on exist in the UK and Australia and most of the developed world.

Your problem is guns.

 

[17 Seconds]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

there it is

 

[liquidtmd]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

Ironically you got it in one

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

You have an incidence where a man shoots at an indiscriminate car full of any potential raced people, nearly murdering them for playing a videogame in the vicinity of his property

And you're telling me there's no issue with who your country is and isn't letting handle highly powered weapons designed to murder people

Okay mate

Okay

 

[minor effort]

But nobody is suggesting that increased gun control would be an absolute, 100% panacea against gun violence.

 

[Somnid]

Gun ownership is one system you speak of. It favors whites over Blacks and lax laws have allowed cheap handguns to flood the streets and make certain neighborhoods into war zones.

 

[kirblar]

Maybe there's more than one problem.

This is exactly it.

There's an issue with systemic racism in police interactions and society at large.

There's an issue with lax gun laws resulting in escalated police force as a response.

They intersect w/ higher rates of unjustified shootings w/ black Americans.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

Maybe there's more than one problem.

.

 

[walking fiend]

Racism (though not to the same degree), mental illness, poverty and all the scape goats you like to blame this on exist in the UK and Australia and most of the developed world.

Your problem is guns.

In none of those countries you have nearly as much of a gap between poor and the rich [just look at the segregation in major cities; sometimes it is up to 90%]. And in none of those countries you have police shooting an innocent black person every other month, without being indicted.

And of course, in the US, you don't have white people shooting white cops or black people shooting black cops. How is racism a scapegoat?

 

[Khaz]

Removing gun from the racial and inequalities equation would prevent an inordinate amount of useless deaths. It wouldn't solve these issues, but at the very least fewer deaths would result from them.

But the core of the problem of guns is: people can't be trusted with lethal weapons. People brandish their gun when road raging, people shoot at each other when having an argument. You can't prevent people from getting mad at each other, but without weapons the most they could do is shake their fists and yell louder. Maybe throw a punch at worst.

 

[yanipheonu]

I mean, it surely is a systematic problem.

But gun control really does need to be a part of the solution. The police find it problematic, with every person being a potential gun owner keeping them on edge. Not to mention the obvious problems of an inordinate amount of gun deaths in the US.

The other problems are just so nebulous and hard to handle. Police reform is surely needed, but how to solve such entrenched problems in many police forces? Better education will help, but how does one "solve" racism?

There needs to be long term solutions for sure, but gun control seems one of the few ways we can at least attempt short term de-escalation of violence.

That and maybe a very public and serious showing by the government and police to reform.

It won't be easy.

 

[TestMonkey]

Racism (though not to the same degree), mental illness, poverty and all the scape goats you like to blame this on exist in the UK and Australia and most of the developed world.

Your problem is guns.

Very true. The racism in UK and Australia is much worse.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

In none of those countries you have nearly as much of a gap between poor and the rich [just look at the segregation in major cities; sometimes it is up to 90%]. And in none of those countries you have police shooting an innocent black person every other month, without being indicted.

And of course, in the US, you don't have white people shooting white cops or black people shooting black cops. How is racism a scapegoat?

The London MET is racist to the core according to their own Black and Asian officers, but there's no one sniping London cops at Westfeild shopping mall.

 

[poppabk]

Unless you are ok with roughly 700 people being killed by police a year, including roughly 100 unarmed people being shot to death, then there is more than one problem.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Unless you are ok with roughly 700 people being killed by police a year, including roughly 100 unarmed people being shot to death, then there is more than one problem.

*~1200

 

[Zen_Arcade]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

Also, more than one issue can play into how a situation plays out.

 

[Aureon]

America doesn't have a monopoly on racism in the OECD. Far and away from that.

It kind of does have a monopoly on gun-related homicide, though,

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

The London MET is racist to the core according to their own Black and Asian officers, but there's no one sniping London cops at Westfeild shopping mall.

I wonder why. After all with people walking around like this to protect themselves and counter the evil police, shouldn't America be the safest place in the world?:

 

[poppabk]

*~1200

I was doing the rough estimation based on if everyone was killed at the same rate as white people.

 

[Lead]

The London MET is racist to the core according to their own Black and Asian officers, but there's no one sniping London cops at Westfeild shopping mall.

How many people does the UK police kill every year? In 2015 +1000 people was killed by American police.

Common sense gun control will take the edge of the problems, it will reduce the amount of firearms fatalities, it will not get rid of institutionalized racism, it will not get rid of poverty. Black on black crime will continue to exist just with slightly fewer guns in the equation (and I do mean slightly fewer guns. Here in Europe criminals have absolutely no problem getting firearms and they use them often, despite comparatively strict gun laws).

 

[Formless]

We can focus on more than one issue at once.

I think people often reduce the focus to guns though. Given how the media works I see OP's point.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Very true. The racism in UK and Australia is much worse.

U WOT M8?

Im pretty sure the UK doesnt have a dedicated news channel and political party for racists in Fox news and the GOP like the US does.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I was doing the rough estimation based on if everyone was killed at the same rate as white people.

Ah. Sorry, then!

 

[Doc Holliday]

In none of those countries you have nearly as much of a gap between poor and the rich [just look at the segregation in major cities; sometimes it is up to 90%]. And in none of those countries you have police shooting an innocent black person every other month, without being indicted.

And of course, in the US, you don't have white people shooting white cops or black people shooting black cops. How is racism a scapegoat?

Because without guns maybe the last few incidents would have ended with bruises, or broken broken bones. Instead we have dead human beings.

Yes racism is a big issue, but guns makes things a lot of worse for everyone.

U WOT M8?

Im pretty sure the UK doesnt have a dedicated news channel and political party for racists in Fox news and the GOP like the US does.

Rupert Murdoch was fucking up news in the UK before he started in the US.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I don't believe stricter gun control will be solving all the tensions that lead to use of violence, and that focusing on gun control is simply turning a blind eye to the real issue(s) here.

No one, and I mean no one is saying it will solve all the problems. I don't get why people keep acting like that is what people are saying.

Gun control works, it won't fix the underlying issue of anger, the desire to harm others, racism, etc. but it would help to make it harder for people to carry out acts of violence with brutal efficiency.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

U WOT M8?

Im pretty sure the UK doesnt have a dedicated news channel and political party for racists in Fox news and the GOP like the US does.

UK did just vote to leave the EU largely over it, though. Right-wing rise in power and rhetoric indeed is an issue across the world.

 

[KDR_11k]

Those 30000 firearm casualties aren't all related to racism. Racism is a huge issue but it goes beyond shooting. Still, they're all vectors towards tackling the many problems the US has.

And well, guns are physical objects that can be banned, racism is a state of mind and cannot be removed with a law.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Both are vital issues but only one of them can be addressed easily through legal policy.

 

[TI82]

Gun laws are definitely one of the biggest things and thinking it isn't a root cause is playing into the NRA propaganda.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-a-central-thesis-of-the-gun-rights-movement/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX4qUsgHa4Y

 

[Lime]

The fact that no one is taking any political action to curb the massive gun problem, even after dead children, just shows that the US is a lost cause and completely fucked.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

The fact that no one is taking any political action to curb the massive gun problem, even after dead children, just shows that the US is a lost cause and completely fucked.

We had a nice little show in the US Congress a few weeks ago after the Orlando massacre, though. That was swell.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

How many people does the UK police kill every year? In 2015 +1000 people was killed by American police.

Common sense gun control will take the edge of the problems, it will reduce the amount of firearms fatalities, it will not get rid of institutionalized racism, it will not get rid of poverty. Black on black crime will continue to exist just with slightly fewer guns in the equation (and I do mean slightly fewer guns. Here in Europe criminals have absolutely no problem getting firearms and they use them often, despite comparatively strict gun laws).

As of 2015, a total of 55 in 24 years.

 

[TI82]

The fact that no one is taking any political action to curb the massive gun problem, even after dead children, just shows that the US is a lost cause and completely fucked.

Some try, and the massive (ignorant) right wing tries to stop it every time.

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

As of 2015, a total of 55 in 24 years.

There are probably a fair number of US states smaller than the UK in size and population that produced a far higher number in far less years.
Geez, I wonder why that is.

 

[HyperionX]

Lax gun control is the elephant in the room. You can pretend that there are other issues at hand too, but the gun control problem is the one people are blatantly ignoring.

 

[TyrantII]

Yeah fuck off, easy access to very effecient killing machines is exacerbating the issue.

When I can go to a toys R us parking lot and buy an AR15 and extended mags from the trunk of a car, we have a fucking problem.

 

[Natiko]

I don't think there's a way to fix the disgusting racists of this country. Can't even say to wait them out and hope t gets better after they pass away because before that they'll have brainwashed their kids.

 

[Lead]

As of 2015, a total of 55 in 24 years.

Exactly, there's not a lot of reason to escalate your frustration with the police as Americans have, especially African Americans.

If people I knew and loved were getting killed left and right by police that I felt wasn't held accountable, you bet I'd start having thoughts about vengeance in my head.

If the justice system can't provide fair judgment, then what are the people to do? Just take it laying down?

Lax gun control is the elephant in the room. You can pretend that there are other issues at hand too, but the gun control problem is the one people are blatantly ignoring.

Right, it's the lax gun control that's getting ignored. Yet we have users on neogaf and politicans alike defaulting to "BAN TEH EVIL BLACK GUNZ NAOW".

I wonder how Europe can function allowing it's citizens to own semi-automatic "black rifles" without having people go crazy against police. Maybe it has something to do with living standards and feeling that you're treated with respect and dignity by the authorities.

Edit: And before people go nuts on me with "BUT GUN LAWS IN EUROPE", common sense gunlaws in America wouldn't have stopped these shootings. If people have a clean background and are otherwise mentally sound they would've gotten the weapon, same as in Europe.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

There are probably US states smaller than the UK in size and population that produced a far higher number in far less years.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

Definitely. Stockton, CA (300k) had 3 fatal shootings in the first 5 months of 2015, while the UK (56m) had 3 in total of 2015.

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

Exactly, there's not a lot of reason to escalate your frustration with the police as Americans have, especially African Americans.

If people I knew and loved were getting killed left and right by police that I felt wasn't held accountable, you bet I'd start having thoughts about vengeance in my head.

If the justice system can't provide fair judgment, then what are the people to do? Just take it laying down?

I think the main reason is that when the most dangerous thing that most civilians can attack you with is a knife or something similar, you as an officer will stay much cooler in most situation. There will be also lots of scrutiny by superiors, paper work to fill out and you'll have some serious explaining to do if you actually shoot someone. Now on the other hand knowing that everyone could be carrying a gun or even have military grade equipment in their car that will go through standard-issue police BP-vests like a knife through butter...

Being under constant threat of being shot understandably results in guns being drawn real quick and far more itchy trigger fingers. Most officers in the UK don't even carry a gun, that's pretty telling (though as a German I have zero issues with every cop being armed TBH, it works more than fine for us).

 

[Inversive]

Very true. The racism in UK and Australia is much worse.

Pretty sure our police force don't go out murdering black people

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

As the second poster said, there's more than one issue we can focus on. But it's pretty damming that US has such lax gun control laws and has the most disproportionately high rate amount of gun deaths and violence compared to the rest of the developed world. It doesn't take a genius to realise there is at least SOME correlation.

Very true. The racism in UK and Australia is much worse.

Seems worse in the US to me, not to say that it's not bad in the UK either. Australia is something else entirely though, yikes.

 

[Calderc]

Exactly, there's not a lot of reason to escalate your frustration with the police as Americans have, especially African Americans.

If people I knew and loved were getting killed left and right by police that I felt wasn't held accountable, you bet I'd start having thoughts about vengeance in my head.

If the justice system can't provide fair judgment, then what are the people to do? Just take it laying down?
Right, it's the lax gun control that's getting ignored. Yet we have users on neogaf and politicans alike defaulting to "BAN TEH EVIL BLACK GUNZ NAOW".

I wonder how Europe can function allowing it's citizens to own semi-automatic "black rifles" without having people go crazy against police. Maybe it has something to do with living standards and feeling that you're treated with respect and dignity by the authorities.

You know what happens to black kids in London? They get stopped and searched. That's the kind of police brutality they face (still fucked of course)

The police don't automatically assume a gun on a suspect and so are not armed themselves, leading to virtually no cases of deaths that the US has. That alone would help drastically lower the murder rate.

At the same time you are tackling the guns, you can start to address the racism. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Vinland]

Unless you are ok with roughly 700 people being killed by police a year, including roughly 100 unarmed people being shot to death, then there is more than one problem.

I'd tell you to look at the individual cases for each of those unarmed shootings. But then you would just not trust the report of cops and point to videos that support the narrative absolute.

 

[Lead]

I think the main reason is that when the most dangerous thing that most civilians can attack you with is a knife or something similar, you as an officer will stay much cooler in most situation. There will be also lots of scrutiny by superiors, paper work to fill out and you'll have some serious explaining to do if you actually shoot someone. Now on the other hand knowing that everyone could be carrying a gun or even have military grade equipment in their car that will go through standard-issue police BP-vests like a knife through butter...

This issue is highly overstated and completely irrational fear as an American cop.

Being a cop isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the U.S.

 

[Delusibeta]

How many people does the UK police kill every year? In 2015 +1000 people was killed by American police.

The Independant Police Complaints Commission compiles an anual report every July or so. The 2015/16 edition is out on the 26th of this month, but here's the 2014/15 report.

tl;dr edition: 142 people died after contact with UK police. However, this figure includes any and all reasons for death, for example there were 69 apparent suicides, 14 road traffic deaths and one fatal shooting.