The Hermit
Member
I don't have the patience to keep playing and recover that money. I´ll spend my time on things much more worthwhile and/or fun.
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Blizzard admits Diablo 3's end-game is lacking, would like to fix eventually
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
I don't have the patience to keep playing and recover that money. I´ll spend my time on things much more worthwhile and/or fun.
I really doubt it was 10 years of active development. The project probably got shelved a dozen times before it was looked at seriously.
Personally, it feels like they took the WoW engine, made it third person, then tweaked it until it felt like Diablo.
Ploid 3.0
Member
I'm happy that CE was hard to find, and that I got the digital version instead of going to get the box. I would try selling my stuff on the RMAH to pay for my purchase but for some reason I can't get the parent lock off of my account. They won't send the email to the only email I remember having tied to the account. I'd rather hold stuff in case the game turns around anyway. With money gained from rmah being important to them, it seems unlikely though.
old manatee
Banned
Can someone who buys gear on the RMAH help me understand the allure? The gold auction house is already super wack, but on some level it does require you to play the game to get gold and slowly upgrade your equipment. If you just put down a credit card to upgrade it seems like you are just taking the loot aspect out of a loot game, enabling you to make your way through inferno unimpeded. But it's content you've already made your way through 3 times. Game makes my head hurt.
But I thought I took the path of least resistance by uninstalling it.
But I thought I took the path of least resistance by uninstalling it.
Ploid 3.0
Member
It was related to dodging the attacks of enemies. Physically dodging by trying to move out of the way. Enemies even have a slight homing effect on their projectiles, and your hitbox is pretty big so it's easy for enemies to hit you. Bliz don't want you out maneuvering them it seem.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah. The first few years were entirely scrapped due to being the original Blizzard North's work, and everything after that went through so many complete design overhauls (skill trees, runes, most of the entire itemization system) that actual development progress over that 10 year span could probably be condensed into 3-4 years of actual design work by any other reasonable developer.
Trickster
Member
It's the path of least resistanace, that's the allure.
I think my biggest problem with the game is that the progression of gear is horrendous in the game.
To get gear good enough to play Inferno Act 2 "correctly" you need rare top tier gear from Infernal Act 3. I mean WTF. How the eff are you suppose to get Infernal Act 3 gear when I couldn't get past Inferno Act 2. Oh I know Auction House.
So normal player said eff this and left. Only the most diligent players used exploits (Running though all the elites and only fight bosses, Get Gear from treasure chest instead of fighting enemies). So they were able get those gear and fill up the Auction house with gear good enough to play Inferno Act 2. They basically own the economy now.
Blizzard somewhat fixed this by removing the exploits and allowing top tier gear to drop in Inferno Act 1 but the drop rates sucks.
In D2 I can gear my characters with nothing but things from Nightmare Meph and I could easily finish the game no problem.
To get gear good enough to play Inferno Act 2 "correctly" you need rare top tier gear from Infernal Act 3. I mean WTF. How the eff are you suppose to get Infernal Act 3 gear when I couldn't get past Inferno Act 2. Oh I know Auction House.
So normal player said eff this and left. Only the most diligent players used exploits (Running though all the elites and only fight bosses, Get Gear from treasure chest instead of fighting enemies). So they were able get those gear and fill up the Auction house with gear good enough to play Inferno Act 2. They basically own the economy now.
Blizzard somewhat fixed this by removing the exploits and allowing top tier gear to drop in Inferno Act 1 but the drop rates sucks.
In D2 I can gear my characters with nothing but things from Nightmare Meph and I could easily finish the game no problem.
Kind of saw this coming in beta when so many of the surrounding systems for crafting, salvaging and selling were scrapped and redesigned (quickly and poorly) very late in development. After that long in development, it really felt like it was rushed through in the late stages to hit the release date - not 'when it was done' at all.
old manatee
Banned
lol
The_Darkest_Red
Member
What sucks even more about the end-game for me is how cheap the difficulty feels in inferno. When you succeed you generally don't feel like it was because of your skill level, but rather because of your gear, but when you fail it almost always feels like it wasn't your fault. Even when you have gear that is fairly decent there are just too many circumstances that can kill you that are almost entirely outside of your control.
A quick example (and I know this has all been discussed to death but I'm in the mood to rant so oh well): last night I came up against a group of 4 elites in Act III with the affixes Extra Health, Jailer, Vortex, and Arcane. I'm a monk with pretty good survivability gear and lots of defensive skills but at some point there is just nothing I can do to stay alive in this type of situation. I can use skills to run away from danger but what good does that do when I get vortexed back into a lethal array of about 5 arcane sentries? And even if I can surive that with something like serenity it's only a matter of seconds before jailer hits and I'm once again completely destroyed by the arcane sentries. On top of all of that, when I use Tempest Rush to get out of the situation it just rubber-bands me back to the middle of the action about 70% of the time (regardless of my ping). I just don't understand how any of this is even remotely acceptable or could even slightly be considered good game design. It's like Blizzard not only completely downplays the importance of skill in the game but they also punish you in ways that make whatever skill you are able to make use of next to worthless.
Okay, I'm done whining for now.
A quick example (and I know this has all been discussed to death but I'm in the mood to rant so oh well): last night I came up against a group of 4 elites in Act III with the affixes Extra Health, Jailer, Vortex, and Arcane. I'm a monk with pretty good survivability gear and lots of defensive skills but at some point there is just nothing I can do to stay alive in this type of situation. I can use skills to run away from danger but what good does that do when I get vortexed back into a lethal array of about 5 arcane sentries? And even if I can surive that with something like serenity it's only a matter of seconds before jailer hits and I'm once again completely destroyed by the arcane sentries. On top of all of that, when I use Tempest Rush to get out of the situation it just rubber-bands me back to the middle of the action about 70% of the time (regardless of my ping). I just don't understand how any of this is even remotely acceptable or could even slightly be considered good game design. It's like Blizzard not only completely downplays the importance of skill in the game but they also punish you in ways that make whatever skill you are able to make use of next to worthless.
Okay, I'm done whining for now.
BlazingDarkness
Member
Id be interested to see what any ex-Blizzard/Diablo developers have to say about DIII
I contemplated buying gear so that I could farm act 3/act 4 for gear and resell the stuff. Plus if you get bored, you can always resell the gear - so it's not like you lose money on it.
I think that's probably a common line of thinking - so people are buying gear in order to sell gear. Possibly.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Blizzard employees secretly control the elites in inferno, and gain pleasure out of destroying players. They didn't like it when players lamed them out by killing them slowly and safely so they gave themselves a rage buff. Rangers staying out of mortar range? Buff that mortar range.
cpp_is_king
Member
The playing field was different 10 years ago. People need actual content now. There's just nothing to do in the game anymore after you get to the end. I've got all the best items for my characters, who cares if they make items more interesting? I'd still be done, because I don't need better items. I need something else to do other than find items that I don't need.
I don't see what they can include for actual "end game" content in a game like this. At that point you'd be gearing it to be more like a MMO or at least going towards a Phantasy Star Online model of sorts.
The game was great for the first month or so I played it which was almost everyday. Ultimately I just don't see the fun in grinding the same bleak shit over and over and over just for a little better gear. Which is weird since in PSO I did that for years.
The game was great for the first month or so I played it which was almost everyday. Ultimately I just don't see the fun in grinding the same bleak shit over and over and over just for a little better gear. Which is weird since in PSO I did that for years.
Dreams-Visions
Member
moar mortar + jailer plz
Ploid 3.0
Member
Max Schaefer talks about it a lot when asked (constantly) as he demos his current game (torchlight 2).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRLPHtaxJdQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=241s
Max Schaefer was one of the 3 creators of the Diablo games, and an executive producer on Diablo I, Diablo II, and the Diablo 2 expansion.
What would you change if you made D3.
*I'd like to make a specific individual build with my character, so I'd like to be able to put points in skills and stats. I like to make strange builds just because you can.
*I'd put the Pentagrams and Crosses back into the game (minor complaint).
*I'd put the Pentagrams and Crosses back into the game (minor complaint).
Things he liked.
*Art
*I'm glad they did it and I didn't have to do it.
*The way the told the story. It didn't feel tacked on. Past diablo games had story tacked on after the game was complete.
*I'm glad they did it and I didn't have to do it.
*The way the told the story. It didn't feel tacked on. Past diablo games had story tacked on after the game was complete.
Because Blizzard saw the life span of D2 lasting 10+ years, and the healthy trading scene that sprang up around it, they wanted a slice of that action so they monetized it. They imagined a scenario where D3 would also last 10 years, but this time it would be a constant source of revenue for them, for very little effort outside of server maintenance and occasional bug fixes etc.
In order to gain as much value from the player as possible and keep people playing, they needed to cockblock certain areas. Act 1, 2, 3, 4. They needed to slow the progress of the players. When people get to the end game too quickly, they're more likely to quit. And when they go, with them goes potential RMAH revenue.
They also needed decent drops to be rare as hell, because they don't want you getting too powerful. Look at legendaries and set items. Some people have played for 200 hours and haven't seen one of either. Go to the AH, it was there specifically placed to condition you in its use so you'd be more likely to use the RMAH.
They needed gear checks, not skill checks. Otherwise, people would just be side-stepping the barriers, finish the game and lose interest.
They also needed the stats on loot to be mundane so they had more control over how people used it. No crazy modifiers allowing for emergent gameplay. Again, that would give the player the edge, and shorten the length of time people would be playing, and that wasn't going to happen. And by starting off modestly, it gives them plenty of wiggle room to slowly add more interesting modifiers, gems, horadric cubes or whatever with content updates and expansions.
Throw in always online, no modding, blur filter, etc etc.
So, they made Diablo 3. What they didn't account for was the players lack of tolerance for all of that crap. Now their greed is biting them in the ass. I hate to sound raged, but really, fuck them and their anti-consumer, my way or the highway, protect their cash cow at any expense attitude.
In order to gain as much value from the player as possible and keep people playing, they needed to cockblock certain areas. Act 1, 2, 3, 4. They needed to slow the progress of the players. When people get to the end game too quickly, they're more likely to quit. And when they go, with them goes potential RMAH revenue.
They also needed decent drops to be rare as hell, because they don't want you getting too powerful. Look at legendaries and set items. Some people have played for 200 hours and haven't seen one of either. Go to the AH, it was there specifically placed to condition you in its use so you'd be more likely to use the RMAH.
They needed gear checks, not skill checks. Otherwise, people would just be side-stepping the barriers, finish the game and lose interest.
They also needed the stats on loot to be mundane so they had more control over how people used it. No crazy modifiers allowing for emergent gameplay. Again, that would give the player the edge, and shorten the length of time people would be playing, and that wasn't going to happen. And by starting off modestly, it gives them plenty of wiggle room to slowly add more interesting modifiers, gems, horadric cubes or whatever with content updates and expansions.
Throw in always online, no modding, blur filter, etc etc.
So, they made Diablo 3. What they didn't account for was the players lack of tolerance for all of that crap. Now their greed is biting them in the ass. I hate to sound raged, but really, fuck them and their anti-consumer, my way or the highway, protect their cash cow at any expense attitude.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
"I'm glad I'm not the guy thousands of people are upset with"
Team Filler
Member
Good post, sums it up nicely.
I love how they made the entire game online-only, and they still have serious problems with things that is supposed to fix, like rampant botting and lack of community. I felt more community doing bloody hills runs.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I used to dislike your posts in the OT thinking you were just some idiot hater being elitist and such (esp with that damn smug avatar lol), but over the past week the light bulb went on for me and I have to say you're right on the money with EVERYTHING you've just said. I wish I had realized it sooner.
Yeah if you can't gather it before you feel the game is shit, just quit. You should still sell all your stuff, because it's going to be worthless in few months anyway.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah, I'm not worrying about trying to make the cost of the game back or anything because I know that opportunity cost is a thing and I'd rather spend my time doing other stuff.
Ploid 3.0
Member
lol yeah that avatar brings up rage even if you don't look at his posts. The dude spits truth though. That was a eye opening post as well. He said he was ranting at the end, but I was raging as I read it all. Blizzard really went too far with this. Maybe activision had a foot in it all.
P.S. Bring on Season 3 of Game Of Thrones!
HappyHunting
Neo Member
I cannot argue with this... it's the only reasonable explanation for the bad decisions that Blizzard has been making again and again... Oh woe is me
I had fun with the game and I like playing with my friends. But the difficulty ramp-up between acts is too high. And really 99.99% of the gear that drops is worthless for me. Most of the items I have on my character came from what my friends gave me. That's really the only good thing to come out of the loot system. Everyone sees different drops = lots more items drops = sharing with friends.
'Oh look another belt for barbarians only.' *hands over to barb playing friend*
When I started I used to pick up everything that dropped, check the stats and either equip or sell. Then as I went on I kept picking up less and less because even at higher difficulties things don't sell for any more really than they did on normal; and again they don't have the stats I need to even equip them.
I really fail to see the point in loot at all. Even the blacksmith is junk. By the time you upgrade him the stuff he can make isn't that good, and even then it's a crapshoot as to whether he he makes ends up fitting your needs.
Maybe blasphemous to say since I don't know how Diablo games are supposed to go (this is my first one) but I would much prefer if I could tell the blacksmith, make an item with x,y,z abilities. That's what I need, and that is what you should be making for me. Maybe have the actual numbers be random; such that if I say make something with Int, it could end up as 90 Int or 50 Int or some range of Int it could be. That would be closer to being useful. At least if I didn't get as high as numbers as I wanted I would still have a chance of finding the item useful.
I'm not trying to make things too easy; I mean obviously the more stats or whatever you ask for the greater the cost. But don't make me feel like I'm wasting my time by even trying to use the blacksmith when he's made me 10, 15, 20 items in a row with garbage stats for my class.
'Oh look another belt for barbarians only.' *hands over to barb playing friend*
When I started I used to pick up everything that dropped, check the stats and either equip or sell. Then as I went on I kept picking up less and less because even at higher difficulties things don't sell for any more really than they did on normal; and again they don't have the stats I need to even equip them.
I really fail to see the point in loot at all. Even the blacksmith is junk. By the time you upgrade him the stuff he can make isn't that good, and even then it's a crapshoot as to whether he he makes ends up fitting your needs.
Maybe blasphemous to say since I don't know how Diablo games are supposed to go (this is my first one) but I would much prefer if I could tell the blacksmith, make an item with x,y,z abilities. That's what I need, and that is what you should be making for me. Maybe have the actual numbers be random; such that if I say make something with Int, it could end up as 90 Int or 50 Int or some range of Int it could be. That would be closer to being useful. At least if I didn't get as high as numbers as I wanted I would still have a chance of finding the item useful.
I'm not trying to make things too easy; I mean obviously the more stats or whatever you ask for the greater the cost. But don't make me feel like I'm wasting my time by even trying to use the blacksmith when he's made me 10, 15, 20 items in a row with garbage stats for my class.
phosphor112
Banned
Release now, fix later. That's the motto of EA and Activision/Blizzard.
Interfectum
Gold Member
Yeah this sums up D3 perfectly.
Although I agree with your observations I think this is definitely the most cynical way of looking at it. I don't think Blizzard intentionally made every decision the way you listed it. I don't think Blizzard anticipated the shorter lifespan of Diablo 3 to 2 since they were basically using the same formula as it's predecessor. Unfortunately the RMAH and the normal AH break that formula since the game quickly starts focussing too much on that aspect. Someone in another thread explained to me how much the social aspect mattered in Diablo 2 and I think that if people still had to trade like they used to and make games like they used to people would complain a lot less.
I also have to say that on the development side of Diablo and not the marketing or strategy side they seem to genuinely want to make a great game. The way they laid out the different options for fixing MF gear and the other development updates really make me feel like people over there care about making a great game despite Blizzard's strategy/marketing team wanting to monetize the whole thing.
Yep, 100%. It's what I thought from the very begining and also told the people in the OT. Got bashed for it when the hype was high up in the sky.
It was clear from the very beginning that a Pay 2 win mechanism would definitly hurt the games longetivity.We'll see a lot more of that crap when F2P grows stronger and stronger.
IlludiumQ36
Member
After 300 hours of getting a Wiz & DH to 60 and subsequent AI/AII Inferno runs, this dropped for me. Imagine my glee seeing a green chest armor on the ground. Now imagine my disdain reading these stats after identification. It's pretty much the same disdain I have every time I identify a rare.
The loot in this loot-centered game is absolute garbage. It's so frustrating because of the fact that it is a very fun game to play, especially with friends. The skills and experimenting with build combos has been entertaining. I've certainly gotten my value out of it, but not what I wanted out of it.
Alcoholikaust
Member
Rather than completely quoting spirity's post, I will just say: that's how I feel as well as the dozen people I play D3 with who don't frequent the GAF.
Forsaken82
Member
Don't really agree with the lack of a good community in this regard... ive met plenty of nice people just buying/trading unIDs via the trade channel. I haven't met a single douche bag in the trade channel yet except for the idiots thinking a shitty level 54 rare item is worth 20 million gold. All the randoms I have dealt with have been great.
Problem was Inferno was so hard that people who were progressing were doing so in spite of the barriers set up by Blizzard. If Blizzard would have properly balanced Inferno in the first place, game would have been fine, but since it was so hard for 95% of the population, you had chest farming, goblin farming, mini boss farming in act 3 and gold farming in Crypts. It basically circumvented any barriers they had in place to slow down progression. Instead of Inferno being done in months, it was finished in weeks. Combined with the fact that a large % of the population couldn't past Act 2 but were watching a select few pass it through the use of "creative" mechanics, you had a player population that was annoyed and whiny. I guess Blizzard should have foreseen people willing to do anything to get good gear. And now Inferno is dead easy, and instead of complaining about difficulty, people complain about drops. Blizzard is screwed either way really.
I'm waiting for the disappointed TL2 posts, don't worry, they'll come just as the Diablo 3 ones have.
Its the people who's first Loot hacknslash game is Diablo 3 who you have to worry about. Also I forgot about Grim Dawn, that game is going to be awesome.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
It just started feeling like a job to me. I'll come back after a bit of time off or if they release new content.
Ploid 3.0
Member
After reading Spirity's post I have a slight feeling D3 had to get out first just to try to get their hooks into people long enough that they would stick with D3 rather than look at the other games. These other games most likely provide a big threat to D3's big plans. Competition doesn't play well with the way they are using this game for money on the side. If people find what they want in these other games D3 can't really tease them so much. Why pay $30 for a weapon t try to see if you can complete the same content only more difficult via elites or gear checks when the competition cost less and have random and craftable endgame maps?
theMrCravens
Member
HocusPocus
Member
The loot is crap because you have so many combinations and you need to have all the 7's hit on the slot machine for loot to be effective in Inferno. That's the problem. If they made all the stats be beneficial for inferno then you wouldn't have this problem. Too much reliance needed on about 5 things you can get out of 50. But you need all 5 on the gear.
Ploid 3.0
Member
TL2 has multiplayer, and map mods and such is better this time around. I doubt people will be done after the story, I don't even pay attention to the story in TL1.
There were story segments that I haven't even seen in D3 until a few minutes ago as I watched these vids. http://youtu.be/b45TsaqKxi0 I think the game should have started balanced for Nightmare mode, and ended with Hell mode with Inferno being released after they finished testing and balancing it.
There were story segments that I haven't even seen in D3 until a few minutes ago as I watched these vids. http://youtu.be/b45TsaqKxi0 I think the game should have started balanced for Nightmare mode, and ended with Hell mode with Inferno being released after they finished testing and balancing it.
The problem is, they tackled that problem backwards ans half-assedly in the first place. Instead of saying: we are going to take our time finetuning Inferno while giving you more looting options in the meantime, they first nerfed Inferno stupidly (without any tuning whatsoever) and then they upped the loot chances (again, without testing the values) once most people complaining had bought their way trhough the end of the game anyway. They effectivly broke any sense of progression people were supossed to have by making it trivial, simply because they didn't take the time to analyze and test what the numbers and community were telling them. They flatened the curve, and people got bored within a week.
I'm sure they will, more so if the end game is as lacking as last time. I don't think I can go back to Torchlight either way. When I had a chance to try the beta I couldn't believe how cumbersome spamming pots had become for me. There's no way I'm going back to a game that asks me to do that. As flawed as D3 is, health globes are one of the most common sense & brilliant gameplay decisions for the genre.
cpp_is_king
Member
If they had balanced inferno properly in the first place, people would have just quit sooner. Either you quit due to frustration of not being able to progress, or you quit because you're done with the content. Doesn't really make a difference either way, the problem is a lack of things to do once you beat the game.
I'm hoping people would have been happier quitting because they've finished all the content though, instead of being stuck in Act 1. Maybe that's too hopeful though.
It was a huge mistake that Blizzard internalized and sanitized the external structures and practices that were produced and infinitely refined by the community surrounding Diablo II out of the game's deficiencies. These formerly external structures simultaneously filled the gaps and linked what wasn't previously linked, thereby embedding a lot of meaning into the game.
The community used to be an ocean of (lack of) knowledge, (mis-)information and (faulty) suggestions; it's now a counter at which buyer and seller meet. It's almost paradoxical. The culture that surrounded Diablo II was very much like a busy and bustling marketplace; now that Diablo III is just that, no exchange goes without knowing glances that say: "let's never speak of this again."
In the end, Diablo II's shortcomings are what distinguish it as the better game. It was an ugly vessel people poured a lot of love into until this new content, the cultural exchanges and gestures needed to play the game, made it beautiful. Diablo III is an eternally lifeless monument to greed.
The community used to be an ocean of (lack of) knowledge, (mis-)information and (faulty) suggestions; it's now a counter at which buyer and seller meet. It's almost paradoxical. The culture that surrounded Diablo II was very much like a busy and bustling marketplace; now that Diablo III is just that, no exchange goes without knowing glances that say: "let's never speak of this again."
In the end, Diablo II's shortcomings are what distinguish it as the better game. It was an ugly vessel people poured a lot of love into until this new content, the cultural exchanges and gestures needed to play the game, made it beautiful. Diablo III is an eternally lifeless monument to greed.
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