-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Blizzard "goes back to the drawing board" with Diablo 3 PvP
- Thread starter Majine
- Start date
+skills, fcr and +dmg/-res for casters
%ed, ias , crit, cb and leech for melees
oh and everyone get cnbf somewhere. procs are useless except for 2 or so.
So much variation in D2. duh.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is just silly. There's plenty of people who are currently playing who don't use the AH. Maybe they just do it for a specific toon. Whatever ... people do it. Play the game how you like. Not being able to get over some invisible barrier to fun because an AH exists is silly at best. Did you find an item? Yes. Did it better your character? Yes. Did you progress further because of it? Yes. That's all that should matter. Because you, the individual, has to add, "could I have found it for cheaper/sooner on the AH" is not the games fault.
The main problem was that prior to 1.0.4-1.0.5 progression was impossible without it. That's not the case anymore. There's multiple paths to progression now and one doesn't need to go to the AH anymore.
The draw of loot ARPGs is entirely psychological. Here is Jay Wilson describing what makes a Diablo tick:
Jay "Fuck that guy" Wilson said:
That sensation he described is entirely in your head.
Writing the AH problem off as simply my perception or "only in my head," is missing the point. Even if it is only in my head, it's still a real problem that affects how successful D3 is as a loot ARPG. It's also one Jay Wilson brought up in his giant apology letter, and a complaint I see pretty regularly, so I'm convinced there are plenty of people who also feel the AH ruins the loot hunt in the game. Sure, I could pretend that the AH doesn't exist and that the loot I found is actually really awesome and not easily trumped by an item that costs virtually nothing in the AH, or I could just play a loot ARPG made by developers that understand what makes loot ARPGs fun.
aliencowz7
Member
I guess that sensation was just as ruined in d2 given the millions of sites you could buy items off of online or being able to buy virtual currency to spend on items on one of the biggest d2 community sites in d2jsp.
Most of the same problems that people use against d3 were just as big of problems for d2, the difference is that people didn't go into d3 wanting the sequel to d2, they went into it wanting a second diablo 2 exspansion and that was never what we were getting.
Weapon dps and main stat +vit being to strong is just the next +skills and vit being to strong. Almost all of the complaints could be applied to both games, people just didn't have there expectations in check for diablo 3.
There is a huge difference between having to visit seedy external third party websites to buy items, and the AH just being an opion on the character select screen. Visibility, easy of access, etc. I didn't use trading website for D2, but the game-sanctioned AH in D3 ruined the loot hunt for me.
Fenderputty
Banned
You're missing my point. The AH is a problem that psychologically affects you. It clearly doesn't affect the pepople who play and use the AH. It surely doesn't affect the many people who play and choose to ignore it as well. The problem isn't the AH, it's your inability to get over it existing. When the AH was needed to advance, then I could see your beef, beacuse if that's not how you want to play the game then you're fucked. That's not the case anymore though.
scorpscarx
Member
I literally sold all my items on Neogaf after 1 week of playing, for $60 and vowed never to play again.
Haven't yet
.Which reminds me, can you sell characters yet?
aliencowz7
Member
So they should ignore the fact that a majority of there playerbase in d2 used seedy third party sites to buy items or d2jsp where it was easy to be scammed to buy items because a different part of the playerbase cant get past the fact that the AH is more visible now? I would take the playerbase being far more safe from scams and keyloggers / whatever else over letting some people down that can't get over the perceived value of there items.
Items were just as cheap and worthless in d2 and it took just as long to find an item with stats good enough to be "elite". The difference is perception and perception is entirely up to the player.
Fenderputty
Banned
I literally sold all my items on Neogaf after 1 week of playing, for $60 and vowed never to play again.
Haven't yet
Which reminds me, can you sell characters yet?
No ... accounts are not able to be sold. Just items.
scorpscarx
Member
Yeah man, I know that accounts are not legally able to be sold, at one time Blizzard mentioned that they might allow AH sales of characters themselves.
Guess that never happened.
Thanks for the response.
Fenderputty
Banned
Hmmm .. I wasn't aware of that. I would rather up and sell my whole account / character than piece out items when I'm finally done with the game.
scorpscarx
Member
Well, perhaps not when you consider all the WoW characters and other game licenses tied to your account, which is my case.
From the AH FAQ straight from BLIZZ:
Citation needed. I have no doubt that some people who spent a lot of time in Hell in D2 used 3rd party trading websites to facilitate getting the best gear, but what about the players that didn't? Same situation could apply to any loot ARPG really. There may be sites out there where people are paying real money for TL2 items, but it doesn't affect me. Those websites aren't being advertised by Runic or linked to in the main menu. The core loot hunt works in that game, and the game encourages me to find items instead of buying them so 3rd party websites aren't even something I thought about in TL2 until now (or D2 while I played it). TL2 also doesn't make the mistake of revealing how worthless the items I'm finding actually are, which is the more harmful affect D3's AH has on the loot hunt.
aliencowz7
Member
I'm speaking of the people that kept D2 alive for years and years, which were the people that spent a lot of time in Hell. Just look at the traffic d2jsp got over the years for diablo 2 and remember that is just one of the possible sites you could use. Then you have to remember the massive amounts of spam advertisement for item buying sites you would get playing online and you certainly did have it constantly in your face whether it was blizzard or not. If you think the constant barrage of hammer pallys with decked out runeword gear tearing the entire game apart were legit then I don't know what I could say to convince someone otherwise.
Some people can ignore those factors and some can't, but i'm not sure how you can blame blizzard for trying to come up with a safe alternative for the people to buy the items they want to buy considering there would be ways to do so had they not. When it comes down to either risking having portions of your player base losing items and accounts and having shady third parties profiting off your hard work as a company or asking for portions of your player base to just have a little willpower and not use the AH if it bothers them, I just have a hard time thinking they made the wrong choice.
The game obviously wasn't for everyone and that is perfectly fine, but some of the complaints people use just don't make sense to me I guess. Different strokes I suppose.
Blizzard didn't come up with "a safe alternative" to d2jsp. They introduced the ah to monetise the game, because they saw the traffic the site got and they wanted a slice of that action. They thought if they could create a Diablo on their own terms, enforce their control on the playerbase, that they could reap the profits of the transactions for 10 years. D3 would be a cash cow that kept on delivering a revenue.
That was what they wanted for D3. It had nothing to do with protecting you from being ripped off. Come on man.
aliencowz7
Member
You are getting a little conspiracy theorist here, did they want to make a profit off of it? absolutely. That is kind of the entire point of a company after all. To say they had no regard for the protection of the players and there accounts is a bit ridiculous though after all the trouble they go through to protect people with all there other games.
Why shouldn't they make the profit off the sale of items as opposed to a site like d2jsp who sells virtual "coins" and pockets that money off no actual work of there own. I would say that is entirely in there right as the creator of d2 and d3.
Syphon Filter
Member
D3 is my goty, don't get the hate.
I'd rather give my money to the company that made the game than to a scumbag like Njaguar who made millions off jsp.
...
aliencowz7
Member
You will need to provide me with a little more then that to understand your objection to what I said. If an artist doesn't like people profiting off there art, and a musician doesn't want people profiting off there music why should it be any different for the people that worked hard to create these games and the items within.
Blizzard provided a perfectly safe, official venue to do the same thing third parties were doing off of a game Blizzard made. I don't see the issue here.
They shouldn't just sell the currency/items because there is a large portion of the player base of MMO games that despises the practice. You alienate many of your hardcore fans when you do this. The secondary market (third party gold sellers) exists because it is actually very small and at the very least someone in china had to play the game to obtain the currency so it's a little more accepted, instead of the game developer just printing money and destroying the game economy. Things are changing though and people are accepting of the practice of devs printing the money, and i think subscription gaming is pretty much dead now so there won't be any more hardcore fans that feel like they put in a lot of time and money to get where they were. They'll just buy the items and gold like everyone else, and play the game for a fraction of the time they did in the subscription based system.
He's saying the current Blizzard didn't create Diablo 2. That was the now-disbanded Blizzard North.
aliencowz7
Member
Blizzard still owns all the rights to the game and everything in it though, that doesn't change when people stop working there. If blizzard owns the right to diablo 2, then they own the rights to make a profit off the sale of the items from it.
Why should they let someone like the guy that created d2jsp make huge profits off selling imaginary currency for buying diablo 2 items on his forums and then not have an official blizzard avenue for doing the same?
evil solrac v3.0
Member
the guys that made D2 aren't around anymore. I think that's what he meant.
Just because your fine with Pay2Win in a PvE game it doesnt mean other people are either.
I bolded was the part I disagreed with. The developers of D2 are not with Blizzard anymore, and haven't been for some time. Diablo was created by Blizzard North, in particular the Shaefer Brothers (now heading up Runic) and David Breivik (the guy Jay Wilson called a loser). The people at Blizzard did not create the Diablo brand. They took it over, and are essentially standing on the shoulders of giants. They've grinded the brand into crap. If you are unable to look around and see the damage they did to the Diablo brand, crappy loot, always online, killing off Deckard Cain with butterfly magic, etc etc, then I don't know what to tell you.
aliencowz7
Member
I'm not justifying the use of pay2win, I am saying that any company worth a damn isn't going to be ok with just letting profits drip away to a third party without trying to get in on it. That is just business whether people like it or not.
I personally hate pay2win, its the reason I cant stand the vast majority of free to play games and detest selling any form of player advantage. PSO2 was one of the games I looked forward to most of anything and it was entirely ruined for me by the pay2win in it.
I won't blame any company for trying to make more money off of there own game in a way that is already being done rampantly by a third party though.
teh_J0kerer
Member
What a shocking mess of a game. It hurts my brain just thinking about it.
Just to address something written to me earlier, since he took the time to respond:
I guess if I were in a game with friends and one went hostile, I'd simply exit the game and remove the friend. An annoyance, and a lamentable way to lose a friend, but it would be another means of knowing who's worth playing the game with and who isn't.
Within 5 minutes of first playing the game I knew to skip past all story content. Overwrought voice acting and bland writing immediately clued me in to tune out.
Fair enough.
I guess if I were in a game with friends and one went hostile, I'd simply exit the game and remove the friend. An annoyance, and a lamentable way to lose a friend, but it would be another means of knowing who's worth playing the game with and who isn't.
This still bothers people, eh?
Within 5 minutes of first playing the game I knew to skip past all story content. Overwrought voice acting and bland writing immediately clued me in to tune out.
Tell me about it. Half of the complaints stated about this game have been remedied months ago, but people still believe the problems exist regardless.
None of the major problems detailed by a couple posters over the last two pages have been fixed which is unsurprising because they are either closely related to core design decisions about the game, or would cost Blizzard significant money to implement/change.
It's not that strange that people are still complaining about a bad entry in a beloved franchise, or having been burnt on a $60 purchase. What is strange is that people like yourself continue to defend the game while conceding a list of flaws a mile long.
"Yeah the story, item diversity, online requirement, and AH still suck, and they haven't added PVP or any real new content after over 6 months, but I don't understand all the hate D3 gets!"
Zyrusticae
Banned
This is horse shit. The only thing you get for paying in PSO2 is a random chance at getting cosmetic items or boosts and that's about it.
There is a huge, enormous gulf between PSO2 and a "pay-to-win" game.
NullPointer
Member
Haha. I've had a lot of fun with my Diablo 3 time, but this right here is unabashed truth.
Also true. My main is something I call a Physics Barbarian. All his powers are about physics and concussion. Its so damn satisfying, and works well ta boot, at least for where I am in Nightmare.
I could watch Diablo 3 combat all day. The game is chaotically beautiful.
It would be nice if it wasn't awful, but the reason I've ever played any video game outright is for its mechanics over its storyline.
As stated, the item diversity which D2 had does exist in some aspects, and can be justifiably used if you want to play low MP all the time.
Oh well. If this stopped you from buying the game, it nullifies you from levying any other complaints about it, right?
AH is wonderful. No more wasted hours trying to peddle shit that I have, finding people who have shit that I want, and even more time wasted in trying to come to terms if I find a seller or buyer. D2JSP still facilitates D3 sales if that's your idea of time well spent.
Which will be garbage in this game regardless, so I agree that they should put it out no matter how bad they think it is.
Subjective. Hellfire Ring runs give a main secondary task to accomplish as well as facilitate the development of alternate characters once you acquire them.
I understand the hate D3 gets in many respects, but when people parrot false statements about the game which either weren't issues to begin with or have since been corrected, that's when a response from someone like me is prompted.
aliencowz7
Member
I count being forced to pay a subscription to be able to trade or have a room in which to sell items from, as well as selling boosts in a game entirely dependent on leveling and finding items is about as close to pay2win in a pso game as you can get outside of selling the best rares outright.
That is a different conversation for another topic though and I don't wish to derail this one getting into it in depth.
I'm not bothered about the quality of the writing. I'm bothered about them killing off Deckard Cain. An act that was eerily prophetic, looking back on it now.
Zyrusticae
Banned
What the fuck?
What you just described is a freemium game, which is what it is.
And holy shit, every F2P game on the market must be P2W to you if simply including boosts is enough to qualify for that!
And even more wtf, every past PSO game has had a subscription, so that is absolutely nothing new!
Furthermore, the most you can get from paying money is a 50% rare boost that lasts all of 30 minutes. That's +50% of an infinitesimally tiny number. A tiny, tiny, tiny number. If the drop rate is 0.0001%, that rare boost increases it to 0.00015%. Congratulations! That's totally worth pre-emptively writing off a game for! (Hell, it's even a running joke that you have more of a chance of finding rares without boosts than with...)
This bullshit pisses me off. People writing off entire games just because of some absolutely moronic moral objection that makes no sense whatsoever when viewed in a realistic lens. Seriously, just stop! Stop doing that! Gawdamn...
I apologize for the off-topic rant, but this crap really does seriously piss me off. Ugh!
aliencowz7
Member
I want a full subscription ala the past PSO games. Not having to double dip with cosmetics and boosts and various other things on top of having to pay monthly for the premium service. If you are going to have a premium subscription then don't charge for other pieces of content within the game. If you want to have a cash shop don't charge for anything other then cosmetics.
Paying money for any kind of gameplay advantage is pay2win for me, which is exactly why I am against free to play games which is what my initial post was about. If it is going to cost me more money over a given period of time to get all paid content available off the cash shop then why in the world would I want it over a subscription based model?
Like I stated though, I have had this argument before in pso2 threads and don't want to derail this one any further so we will have to just agree to disagree.
edit: calm down, i'm not writing anything off. I played the alpha, beta and full retail release of pso2 as well as an immense amount of time spent on all other versions of pso and psu. I most certainly went into it with a perfectly open mind and the game was very much not for me but I am happy others are able to enjoy it.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is like saying 100% of 25% of the complaints haven't been fixed.
Look, I get that you don't like the game. That's cool. That doesn't mean content hasn't been added and some issues weren't fixed / improved.
- progression is better
- mp levels added
- uber runs added
- paragon added
- legendary drop rates increased
- grouping improved
- legendary items improved
- the WD isn't a useless class anymore
What about
- PvP
- Removing online drm / adding a offline mode
- LAN
- Charms / runewords
- Randomized areas
- Ladders / Leagues
- Allowing custom allocation of stat points
- Server broswers
??
Agreed. Credit where credits due, Blizzard aced the combat in D3.
At the same time, these features should have been in-game at launch. They moved from a broken game to an okay game. I'm still baffled that it shipped the way it did.
The whole basis of this thread is about PVP, and points about it have since been addressed earlier, and will be garbage regardless, so yes it should be in the game.
Never was or is going to happen.
See above.
D3 isn't D2. Sorry.
Severy lacking, yes, and it is my primary hope to be addressed in the future.
The game's only been out a few months and you want ladder resets already?
As discussed in the OT thread a few weeks ago, there is a way to manipulate which specific servers you want to be on. Otherwise, there are the general chat rooms you can use to address the playerbase at large if you want to find players for a specific task. Joining Public Games and asking the other players to join you in doing something is another way to find other players to do things.
You can also just add players from the OT thread here or elsewhere. My friends list is at 90+ people and I have to remove players who haven't been on for two weeks or more to accommodate more friend requests.
Zyrusticae
Banned
Fair enough.
It sounded to me like you were writing if off pre-emptively without even considering how the business model actually affects the experience (which is very minimally, at that). If it bothered you enough to quit then I guess that's that.
Few months? The game's been out since May. It's almost January.
That's more than a "few months", I think.
Personally, though, I don't see the point in the ladder. It's more of a contest of 'who has the most play time available' than anything else, which isn't terribly interesting.