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Blizzard "goes back to the drawing board" with Diablo 3 PvP

Few months? The game's been out since May. It's almost January.

That's more than a "few months", I think.
Replace "few" with a word which denotes "more than one" so that I can use that statement as opposed to saying "less than a year".

OK then.
Personally, though, I don't see the point in the ladder. It's more of a contest of 'who has the most play time available' than anything else, which isn't terribly interesting.
Agreed, but much like PVP and Hostile, if it's what the majority of players want, it's something the game should probably have regardless of how I personally feel.
 
That doesn't mean content hasn't been added and some issues weren't fixed / improved.

- progression is better
- mp levels added
- uber runs added
- paragon added
- legendary drop rates increased
- grouping improved
- legendary items improved
- the WD isn't a useless class anymore


Balance adjustments and end-game drop rate changes were considerably lower on my wish list than everything else I listed. The only thing out of your list that I really give them credit for is the Legendary Item changes that made them more than just shitty rares, but it was silly that the game launched with them in the state that it did. Most of the rest of the rest of your list boils down to "made better items drop more frequently." Little consolation when the items themselves are still boring and there is still no item diversity.

When you consider that what you listed is really all that they have added in the last 6 months, most of which was just tweaking numbers that were already in the game, it makes the PvP news in the OP especially grim. This isn't a dev team that moves at a competent pace or executes features with the polish Blizzard is known for.
 
What about

- PvP
- Removing online drm / adding a offline mode
- LAN
- Charms / runewords
- Randomized areas
- Ladders / Leagues
- Allowing custom allocation of stat points
- Server broswers

??

Half the shit you just posted was never gonna be in the game. The other half is complaining the game isn't a diablo 2 expansion.

At the same time, these features should have been in-game at launch. They moved from a broken game to an okay game. I'm still baffled that it shipped the way it did.

A completely fair assessment with regards to legendaries and progression / balance. They should have waited to release.

Balance adjustments and end-game drop rate changes were considerably lower on my wish list than everything else I listed. The only thing out of your list that I really give them credit for is the Legendary Item changes that made them more than just shitty rares, but it was silly that the game launched with them in the state that it did. Most of the rest of the rest of your list boils down to "made better items drop more frequently." Little consolation when the items themselves are still boring and there is still no item diversity.

When you consider that what you listed is really all that they have added in the last 6 months, most of which was just tweaking numbers that were already in the game, it makes the PvP news in the OP especially grim. This isn't a dev team that moves at a competent pace or executes features with the polish Blizzard is known for.

I think I've already stated that I understand that you don't think the drops are interesting. I already know you don't like the game. I think it would have been safe for you to assume that I knew what I listed was of lower value on your personal totem pole. That doesn't mean improvements for many of the complaints levied against the game weren't addressed.

The PvP news is mostly upsetting to me because its wasted time on resources that could have been spent elsewhere.
 
I think the biggest mistakes they made with D3 are:

1) Beta test inferno/end game so that the game play and itemization doesn't suck, it seems they they more concerned with not spoiling the story than with making good loot/end game. The 'beta' was just a demo and did nothing to improve on the problems with the game at release.

2) Release the AH 6 months to a year after the game release so the loot hunting is forced to stand on it's own.
 
D3 is my goty, don't get the hate.
I get the hate, but a lot of it is obsolete. Blizzards fault for releasing it in the state it was in. If the game that's there today was the one that released I have no doubts that a lot more people would think positively of it.

It's my goty too.
 
Half the shit you just posted was never gonna be in the game. The other half is complaining the game isn't a diablo 2 expansion.

No all the 'shit' i posted was in the base Diablo 2 game with the exception of a Relics/Runewords.

Sequels are ment to build on foundations, not regress.
 
I get the hate, but a lot of it is obsolete. Blizzards fault for releasing it in the state it was in. If the game that's there today was the one that released I have no doubts that a lot more people would think positively of it.

It's my goty too.

1.0.4 would have been an epic starting point for release.
 
Not surprised at all by this and I can't say Diablo 3 is on my mind much anymore other than the occasional what it could have been.

I personally think the player base will continue to shrink the longer the game goes on without making D2-esque changes.
 
I get the hate, but a lot of it is obsolete. Blizzards fault for releasing it in the state it was in. If the game that's there today was the one that released I have no doubts that a lot more people would think positively of it.

It's my goty too.

It would definitely have taken longer for people to get up in arms about the game, but the big fundemental flaws are still there afaik.

Shit loot
No PvP
AH
Matchmaking instead of server list
 
everyone griping about the AH still? holy crap, its so easy to avoid it.

also, the game was not designed around the AH. The game was lackluster when it launched which might have forced you to use the AH because the game itself had shortcomings which could only be remedied by using the AH. It was game design that was remedied with the last couple patches.
 
Wow at those last 2 pages.

So:

- if AH is bad "don't use it noob" and works actually well
- actual itemization is fun
- drop rates are good for people playing from lvl1

Wtf i am reading. I started new character after 1.04 patch and none of what you said is valid. AH is shit, itemization is shit, drop rates for levels below 60 are super low.

And still

- character progression is butchered
- online lack of ladder reset
- skills scales damage of your weapon aka you can use fucking hammer to cast your spells
- every weapon must have +speed +main stat and armor +mainstat +vit rendering most of loot affixes useless
- linear progression of loot meaning lvl 24 loot will ALWAYS be worse than lvl 25 loot
- horrible boss design
- terrible 2D art of weapons and armor (uniques are fine now)
- lack of PvP
- lack of player stun or mobs crit player
- you can faceroll game
- lack of charms runes jewels or other items to socket
-

and i could go on but most of those won't ever be fixed because those are core aspects od game and fixing them mean reprogram whole game.

Most problematic for me aspect of D3 is itemization.

Affixes are worthless beside what i described above because how stats are connected with character and when you finally find interesting affix it's accompanied with +int +str + healthG + gold which means that you must farm eons or go to AH where every item is worth cheap meaning for few gold pieces you can buy almost anything you want including certain combination of certain affixes.

If they would fix itemization, characters proggression and skills using weapon DPS then game would be leagues better but most of those are connected with each other so if they want to change itemization they need to change skills DPS scaling and character progression
 
My biggest problems with D3 arent in the details, but in the core concepts. First, what i like about the game is the weight of the combat and the presentation. It seems im one of the few people who think the game is gorgeous.

It ends there however. Its overly simplistic and forgiving with its rpg elements, which is unforgivable since the combat (while has that a nice "omph" to it) is really simplistic. You cant, in 2012, have both a repetative combat system and stripped rpg elements, its either one or the other. Thats why a game usually is either an action/adventure game or an rpg, cause both are hard to implement at the same time, so a developer usually goes one route or the other. Here you have a game thats essentialy "left click until it dies", so it must have something else going for it to redeem that simplicity. It doesnt.

The narrative, as many have pointed out, is like something take from the power rangers. The dialogue is cringeworthy, the characters and plot uninteresting and predictable.

Besides the game being repetative, there is very little actual content. The Normal, Nightmare, Hell concept is outdated. You cant just take the same game, unlock a more difficult mode upon completion and call it value or replayability. Especially when the item hunt was so anticlimatic as it was in D3 comparing to D2. Imagine a person who just wants to play the game once; he gets neither challenge, depth nor story, since so much of the misguided d3 concept is based on diablo being fun "once it gets challenging". What blizzard is telling this guy is that he has to play through the game 1-2 more times to start getting to the good stuff. This might have worked in 2000, but now, with so many quality mmos and with gaming being so much further along then it was back then, a "lite mmo" with little content and broken systems like Diablo 3 wont cut it. Especially if you look how far rpg games have come during that time.

I cant believe that the developers thought nostalgia would somehow save this game from being mediocre. I remember diablo 2 and the item hunt. I remember farming cow level for items and dueling outside the town in act 1. But who doesnt at the same time realize and remember how low the standards were if you considered simply farming cow level and having nothing to do with your shiny items once you got them as something "fun".

This is exactly my problem with diablo 3. Its in many regards worse than d2, 12 years later. No pvp either, and ive not even touched upon the broken loot mechanics everything else thats wrong it in regards to difficulty. class balance and the AH. It fails as singleplayer game in almost every respect, and it also fails as a multiplayer game almost in every area.
 
I cant believe that the developers thought nostalgia would somehow save this game from being mediocre.
They weren't counting on nostalgia to save the game from mediocrity... they were counting on nostalgia to make it a multi-million seller.

Most people complaining about PvP not being in the game are going to be back complaining about how it came almost a year later and is still shit... which it most likely will be thanks to the horrid class balance. 1.07 better come with a hefty dose of class balance.
 
They weren't counting on nostalgia to save the game from mediocrity... they were counting on nostalgia to make it a multi-million seller.

Most people complaining about PvP not being in the game are going to be back complaining about how it came almost a year later and is still shit... which it most likely will be thanks to the horrid class balance. 1.07 better come with a hefty dose of class balance.

Well with that mentality they will run blizzards rep into the ground. Im pretty sure they tried making a good game, and simply failed. Remember, Diablo 3 was announced summer 2008, and by then it was already "far along". Imagine how much resources they have burned to make this absolutely mediocre game.
 
Well with that mentality they will run blizzards rep into the ground. Im pretty sure they tried making a good game, and simply failed. Remember, Diablo 3 was announced summer 2008, and by then it was already "far along". Imagine how much resources they have burned to make this absolutely mediocre game.
Blizzard's rep is already much lower than before but they still have enough rep so that whatever game they release sells a decent amount. One thing is for sure that their next Diablo expansion is going to sell much lower.
 
Very well-stated, BeauRoger! (Especially the Power Rangers comparison... spot-on with that one.)

I really wonder where all their resources went to during the development of Diablo 3. It'd make a great piece of investigative journalism. Just where did all those people put those thousands of man-hours into? It just doesn't feel like a game that took 6 years to develop...
 
Game was great first go around and then it got insanely difficult, plus the patches that nerf'd stats then you had to rely on the auction house to get good gear plus more nerf'ing of stats.

fuck this game to hell.
 
Game was great first go around and then it got insanely difficult, plus the patches that nerf'd stats then you had to rely on the auction house to get good gear plus more nerf'ing of stats.

fuck this game to hell.
The only stat that they have actually nerfed is IAS and that was months ago. Also the difficulty has been greatly reduced now, you don't need the AH at all to progress anymore.

Playing the game on Hardcore using the "iron price" method of getting items (like how Kripparian did with his Barb) is actually a very enjoyable experience. And it's very much possible to beat Inferno now with gear you find from just regular farming. The game in terms of difficulty and loot drops is very different from before... anyone complaining about difficulty or not getting items for progression probably hasn't played the game anytime soon.


I really wonder where all their resources went to during the development of Diablo 3. It'd make a great piece of investigative journalism. Just where did all those people put those thousands of man-hours into? It just doesn't feel like a game that took 6 years to develop...
I would also like to know what the fuck happened with RE6 as well.
 
Wow at those last 2 pages.

So:

- if AH is bad "don't use it noob" and works actually well
- actual itemization is fun
- drop rates are good for people playing from lvl1

Wtf i am reading. I started new character after 1.04 patch and none of what you said is valid. AH is shit, itemization is shit, drop rates for levels below 60 are super low.

And still

- character progression is butchered
- online lack of ladder reset
- skills scales damage of your weapon aka you can use fucking hammer to cast your spells
- every weapon must have +speed +main stat and armor +mainstat +vit rendering most of loot affixes useless
- linear progression of loot meaning lvl 24 loot will ALWAYS be worse than lvl 25 loot
- horrible boss design
- terrible 2D art of weapons and armor (uniques are fine now)
- lack of PvP
- lack of player stun or mobs crit player
- you can faceroll game
- lack of charms runes jewels or other items to socket
-

Yeah can't believe some of these posts. Even after playing 1.04 for a bit I have never used an item past act 2 in inferno for my monk or barb that I FOUND in game. EVERY item is off the auction house. Although back when I played it was more efficient to resell on the AH than to actually play the game. As I'm playing Borderlands 2 atm the difference between itemization and actual fun I'm having in coop with my friends is night and day.
 
Im more pissed off at the lack of randomized areas than items. The diffrences between playthroughs is so minor you might aswell say it has no randomized areas at all.
 
AH is shit
Wasting time to find bartering partners is shit. AH is one of the best parts of this game.
- linear progression of loot meaning lvl 24 loot will ALWAYS be worse than lvl 25 loot
False as of 1.0.5. Items roll based on level of monster killed.
- lack of player stun or mobs crit player
Explain? Wizard's arguable only use is to stun mobs.
Even after playing 1.04 for a bit I have never used an item past act 2 in inferno for my monk or barb that I FOUND in game. EVERY item is off the auction house.
My wizard's gloves, bracers, pants, and source are all self found.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Ammostiel-1897/hero/4975484

Sorry for your bad luck.
 
Wasting time to find bartering partners is shit. AH is one of the best parts of this game.

No, its the worst. It negatively affects the quality of the loot. Blizzard is having to be conservative with modifiers and affixes, its the reason why loot is so ghetto in D3. If you think that isn't the case, then why is TL2 filled with loot-porn? D3 is the opposite end of the loot spectrum in that regard, because the means of obtaining loot is trivialised by the AH.

The AH removes the need for the item hunt in D3. Instead the item hunt has been replaced by the gold hunt. All you do is farm for gold, then spend that gold to buy upgrades. Its fucking retarded, and its why D3 isn't a loot whore game. Its a gold whore game, or an Ebay Sim. All you do in D3 is stockpile gold.
 
Auction House as a mechanics dont suck per se, what sux in D3 is currency, it shouldnt be gold and there should be item sink mechanics involved, also upgrade system, so You can craft items from existing items, or upgrade current ones, so You have some incentive to scrap them or stash them. And of course there is also a loot stats/affix and character stats problem that intensify it drastically.

Right now, it basically looks like this for characters below 60, You play for several hours and level for example 7-10 levels, in that time You drop some rares and magic items, some usable, some not, but if You compare those drops to anything in AH thats being sold for 5-10k, its completely worthless, its not even twice as bad as stuff there, its 6-10 times worse than what You can buy in AH and whats even worse, in next 2-3 levels You will find magical items that are better or even to those rares from AH You've just bought. Stats scaling is as bad as every other aspect of the loot.
 
Blizzard's rep is already much lower than before but they still have enough rep so that whatever game they release sells a decent amount. One thing is for sure that their next Diablo expansion is going to sell much lower.
It's going to be quite interesting to see the sales for the eventual expansion and the two next SC2 expansions.
 
Wasting time to find bartering partners is shit. AH is one of the best parts of this game.

If it ruins the fun of gathering loot for a large part of the player base your logic doesn't matter. I personally quit because I didn't like how the AH changed the gearing process.

It's a tough balancing act...too much emphasis on convenience/accessibility can ruin the sense of adventure and discovery for many people. I enjoy WoW much less now for similar reasons.
 
Auction House as a mechanics dont suck per se, what sux in D3 is currency, it shouldnt be gold and there should be item sink mechanics involved, also upgrade system, so You can craft items from existing items, or upgrade current ones, so You have some incentive to scrap them or stash them. And there is also a loot stats/affix and character stats problem that intensify it drastically.
AH in itself isn't a bad thing, but in D3 it's painfully obvious how it drags down the loot, partly to make RMAH as viable for Blizz as it is now.
 
Very well-stated, BeauRoger! (Especially the Power Rangers comparison... spot-on with that one.)

I really wonder where all their resources went to during the development of Diablo 3. It'd make a great piece of investigative journalism. Just where did all those people put those thousands of man-hours into? It just doesn't feel like a game that took 6 years to develop...

This is pretty well documented no? They made the game twice basicly.

Also it was blizzs pet project. A team is on Titan, new kids working on WoW, SC2 team doing their thing.
 
Are we just talking this iteration or also the blizz north game though?

Blizz kept making huuuuugeeer changes up until launch. Like the whole skill system was changed with just a few months left.
 
The AH removes the need for the item hunt in D3. Instead the item hunt has been replaced by the gold hunt. All you do is farm for gold, then spend that gold to buy upgrades. Its fucking retarded, and its why D3 isn't a loot whore game. Its a gold whore game, or an Ebay Sim. All you do in D3 is stockpile gold.
How is this different from stockpiling SOJs or runes in D2?

Meanwhile, last I checked as of yesterday, I have 62M collected from drops and 320M in holding, after spending a few hundred million on gear throughout the time. Seems that I've found items of value at some point or another. Farming specifically for gold in D3 is fundamentally the most inefficient way to play the game.
AH in itself isn't a bad thing, but in D3 it's painfully obvious how it drags down the loot, partly to make RMAH as viable for Blizz as it is now.
Again, as long as the exchange rate never goes below $0.25/million and the RMAH limit is $250, the best gear to be found in the game is always going to be on Gold Auction House rather than RMAH.

RMAH is a clearing house for mid-tier items and/or hoping for chump buyers.

I've never purchased a single piece of gear from RMAH and I don't know of anyone who has.
 
I donno if they changed it but the worst part of D3 for me is that i can't just do 3-4 minute boss runs like I could in D2, instead i gotta collect those MF buffs first, which also increase the amount of things dropped.
 
How is this different from stockpiling SOJs or runes in D2?

Like night and day. This is why no one cared about gold in D2 because it don't have any meaningful value and gold inflate like mad because gold stays where runes were lost after a while.

False as of 1.0.5. Items roll based on level of monster killed.

this is linear progression not nonlinear.

Non linear progression of items mean that i can have a chance (small one) to find absolute awesome loot even from shitty monster with bosses increasing that chance. For example being lvl 20 and finding superbly rolled lvl 30 rare with -30% needed level.

Or Devine Orb from first zombie in PoE (krip got one in one of his yt videos) which in D3 case mean that he found something as expensive as lvl 60 unique or D2 case upper runes before ZOD.

What you described is shitty mechanic.
 
How is this different from stockpiling SOJs or runes in D2?

Meanwhile, last I checked as of yesterday, I have 62M collected from drops and 320M in holding, after spending a few hundred million on gear throughout the time. Seems that I've found items of value at some point or another. Farming specifically for gold in D3 is fundamentally the most inefficient way to play the game.

There is no way that farming for gold to spend on the auction house is better than actually looting the items yourself.

The auction house removes the item hunt. If you choose to ignore the auction house, fine. But the drops you pick up are still being affected by the presence of an auction house, regardless of whether you ignore it or not. Diablo 3 will always have ghetto loot because the developers chose the path of being greedy fucks when they monetised Diablo. The game shifted 10m copies, but I don't know anyone who plays it now. This is anecdotal of course, and I bet you can tell me you've got a friends list as long as your arm. Ultimately, the game flopped pretty hard and pretty quickly, and its no small part due to the auction house.

dog$ said:
I've never purchased a single piece of gear from RMAH and I don't know of anyone who has.

People sell stuff on the rmah all the time. I can go to the d3 thread in community and see plenty of evidence of that. So somebody must be buying them too.
 
The auction house removes the item hunt. If you choose to ignore the auction house, fine. But the drops you pick up are still being affected by the presence of an auction house, regardless of whether you ignore it or not. Diablo 3 will always have ghetto loot because the developers chose the path of being greedy fucks when they monetised Diablo. The game shifted 10m copies, but I don't know anyone who plays it now. This is anecdotal of course, and I bet you can tell me you've got a friends list as long as your arm. Ultimately, the game flopped pretty hard and pretty quickly, and its no small part due to the auction house.

here we go with conspiracy again.

its one thing to blame it on shitty game design and quite another to say they have METICULOUSLY DESIGNED A GAME SO THAT YOU MUST SPEND MONEY ON IT

i think i would rather believe the earlier rather than the latter considering that the evidence that "shitty" game design in Diablo III is much more prevalent than the insidious design you say is present in the game.
 
I played through all of Act 1 on my Inferno barb tonight to see just how big the changes really were. The experience was much easier, but the loot was still shit. I don't just mean "I didn't find anything good" (though that is also true), but that determining whether loot was any good was still a very simple and boring process due to the small number of modifiers that are viable. Nothing has changed really.

Meanwhile, last I checked as of yesterday, I have 62M collected from drops and 320M in holding, after spending a few hundred million on gear throughout the time. Seems that I've found items of value at some point or another. Farming specifically for gold in D3 is fundamentally the most inefficient way to play the game.

Farming gold specifically was never the popular process. It was farming items that you could sell in the AH and then investing that gold in upgrades for yourself. Even after the changes, this is still the most reliable way to find upgrades. You may not find something for yourself while playing, but it's pretty likely you'll find something useful for another class or someone from your class with less gear. This is still how the game is played, and it is still less interesting and exciting than finding the loot for yourself while playing. It's also still basically farming for gold.

The only people are left playing D3 are the people that like using the AH and playing what basically amounts to an economic simulator. The community-side thread for D3 is evidence of this. After the first month or so, the only discussion was about how much items were worth, or what deals people managed to find.

This is the audience Diablo 3 was built for, to the detriment of the majority of players who just wanted to play an upgraded version of D2 where they found cool loot for their character and had fun with friends.
 
About AH.

I too think AH state and how it works is just devs being noobs at ARPG design. Without ladder everything inflate as shit, because of their bad design choices with itemization you can only buy very good items in AH and can't find ingame. They wanted share of item/character blackmarket which worked on small scale so they introduced big scale market which works differently than small scale one which is again bad design choice mainly because with blackmarket people bought only superb items and not shit.

Just bad devs without experience doing legendary arpg.
 
Designing the game and droprates around the AH was a disaster.

Sure they sold 10 million copies on hype, so its a great success financially, but the game is not good and never will be like this.

This will be reflected in future sales.

Blizzard has shown since Vanilla WoW they dont know how to handle loot well, the whole deflation of worth of blues in wow is evidance of that. Blues used to be great, but people wanted epics so now blizz gives them purples that are in fact blues. This changes nothing except that now you need item levels to determine if epics are good enough, laughable and stupid design.

Grinding for tokens/gold = blizzs way of making a casual game. Here johny just mindlessly farm for 100 hours and you will get your gear through ah/vendors. Fun fun fun!
 
Designing the game and droprates around the AH was a disaster.

Sure they sold 10 million copies on hype, so its a great success financially, but the game is not good and never will be like this.

This will be reflected in future sales.

Blizzard has shown since Vanilla WoW they dont know how to handle loot well, the whole deflation of worth of blues in wow is evidance of that. Blues used to be great, but people wanted epics so now blizz gives them purples that are in fact blues. This changes nothing except that now you need item levels to determine if epics are good enough, laughable and stupid design.

Grinding for tokens/gold = blizzs way of making a casual game. Here johny just mindlessly farm for 100 hours and you will get your gear through ah/vendors. Fun fun fun!

This post is 100% accurate to how I feel about WoW/D3.

Design PVP like S2/S3 of BC.
 
I wonder if the expansion (presuming there is one) will change the dependency on the AH. It feels pretty bad to get most of your loot from there instead of finding it ingame.
 
I logged on D3 over the weekend for the first time in months simply to check the AH to see what's going on.... WTF at the gold inflation. Some of the prices are so high the amount of gold doesn't even fit in the space they have for it. Helm for only 100,000,000,000! lol
 
I logged on D3 over the weekend for the first time in months simply to check the AH to see what's going on.... WTF at the gold inflation. Some of the prices are so high the amount of gold doesn't even fit in the space they have for it. Helm for only 100,000,000,000! lol

What the hell is that lol. 100 billion?
 
Saw this on the boards. Relevant

h6OUS.jpg


That makes me wish I had played more D2 than I did. I gave up on it pretty early in. The people in the community were assholes, lol. Drove me away from it.

What the hell is that lol. 100 billion?

Yeah the gold inflation is insane. Its sad because if you took a break from the game for a few months and were filthy rich (200 million gold for example) you came back a week or two ago and can't afford top end items lol.
 
Saw this on the boards. Relevant

h6OUS.jpg

What is funny about this pic that it could be expanded by at least 4 points in favor of D2 or any other good loot based game.
And it doesnt even talk about loot scaling, stats bonuses, class synergies or skills.
And there is also one other big topic = crafting.
 
The fundamentally flawed part is the key issue. I don't know how they fix it without an almost complete revamp of the entire system. Everything they've done so far, and many of those changes are pretty damn big, have been little more than big bandaids on an issue that runs far deeper in the game.
 
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