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Bloomberg: Nintendo Market Value Passes Sony on Pokemon Go Frenzy

Neff

Member
Profit is nice, but

No buts. It's the single most important priority for a business.

It's easy to understate just how fortunate Sony were with PS4 (a success partly contributed to by the failure of MS and Nintendo), and the grim circumstances they were facing before it launched.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oh, I know what he was saying. But a corporation's long-term strategy is almost always going to be driven by profitability, so I still find it to be an odd statement.

Not that mindshare and increased revenues aren't important, but profit isn't simply "nice" either.
"Profit is nice, but at the expense of diminished sales, relevance and mindshare" is just playing into corporate spin. Profit is all that matters ultimately. These international mega conglomerates are not selling games at a loss as charity for gamers to get cheaper things.

When it comes to the bottom line (= dollars), Sony lost last generation harder than anyone has ever lost anything in the industry. Sega was destroyed by a few years of ~400 million dollar losses. SCE sustained a probable 8-10 billion dollar loss to about 2012 on the PS3 (offset by ~3 billion by PSP and especially late PS2 profits).

Ultimately Sony and Microsoft were willing to lose vast amounts of cash in the industry for a decade - not to try and make it back within the industry, but as broader maneuvers to be the TV computer box of choice to sell music/movies on. PS3 also existed for the HDDVD vs Blu Ray wars to be won. Gaming was an afterthought.

PS4 is now doing well primarily because Nintendo and Microsoft both failed so hard. It's not becuse of 'mindshare' or some other corporate jargon, they released a modest PC in a box and because everyone else screwed up they've just become the default. It's the Stephen Bradbury of consoles.
 

Az987

all good things
What a roller coaster ride.

From $20 a share to 38 in less than 2 weeks and back under 28 now just as fast.
 

geordiemp

Member
Nintendo make good software and shit hardware...shock news at 11.

So whats changed ?

Pokemon Go looks quite nice on a Iphone 6S confirmed ?
 

watership

Member
How would Microsoft compare in this statistic?

MS has 20x the Market Cap of Sony and Nintendo. But the difference is more about how Nintendo is still a relatively small company, with a narrow focus. Sony and Microsoft have far more diversity. Having a market cap like Nintendo, considering what they are doing, is impressive.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Pokemon Go is going to be fantastic for Niantic's future but what can Nintendo do to build off of Go's success?

Nail Animal Crossing mobile. That has tons of casual appeal, and is the most easily monetized of their franchises given the focus on collecting furniture sets etc.

Nintendogs is another game that could be huge on mobile. It's much better suited to a phone people always have with them, than a portable that even most gamers aren't carrying everywhere.

In short, it should show them that they have IPs that are very wells suited for F2P money making types of games. They'll mostly be stuff core gamers don't like much, but that's fine. It's a big revenue stream that they can use to bolster their dedicated gaming business.
 

watershed

Banned
Nintendogs is an interesting idea. I could see a well designed Nintendogs game replacing future handheld iterations all together. A walk the dog mode that uses gps and AR, meeting other dog owners online and in person, ot could really work on mobile. Plus phones already have inward facing cameras for face licking and mics for training.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
No you shouldn't. Hype is dying down as people realize the reality of the economic impacts of the licensing agreement for Nintendo.

Again, it shows the potential for future mobile apps they fully own like Animal Crossing and Nintendogs and Brain Age etc. That stuff that really caught on with casuals on Wii/DS has a ton of potential on smartphones and tablets as that's where that market went.

That said, the stock price will most definitely dip once Pokemon Go hype dies down and before those games are out. So now is a bad time to buy.
 

hesido

Member
No you shouldn't. Hype is dying down as people realize the reality of the economic impacts of the licensing agreement for Nintendo.

Yes, but I wouldn't say no to a 100% profit in that small time frame (like those who are now selling :) )
 
No buts. It's the single most important priority for a business.

It's easy to understate just how fortunate Sony were with PS4 (a success partly contributed to by the failure of MS and Nintendo), and the grim circumstances they were facing before it launched.

Not at the expense of greatly diminished sales, largely because it means either your audience is shrinking or your competition is winning. Neither are good long-term because eventually your profits will also shrink.

And again, PS4 is more of a return to form much more than their competitors flailing about.

PS4 is now doing well primarily because Nintendo and Microsoft both failed so hard. It's not becuse of 'mindshare' or some other corporate jargon, they released a modest PC in a box and because everyone else screwed up they've just become the default. It's the Stephen Bradbury of consoles.

Your last point is simply wrong, and informs me that there's no need to continue if that's really your perspective. It's the equivalent of saying Nintendo just has the portable market because all of their competition screwed up, which also isn't true.

Well no, they're technically still higher than Sony by a couple hundreds of millions.

Stocks, how do they work?

The line of conversation in the thread is still valid.
There are many more reasons for Nintendo to consider eliminating a part of their business that has become less relevant in comparison to the greater market.
Some people here may not like that, but this just proves out that there is a much larger market they have access to via mobile, and especially in that region.

They should consider it.
 

Malakai

Member
Not at the expense of greatly diminished sales, largely because it means either your audience is shrinking or your competition is winning. Neither are good long-term because eventually your profits will also shrink.

And again, PS4 is more of a return to form much more than their competitors flailing about.

You act as if Nintendo won't release new hardware. Or any new hardware released by Nintendo won't succeed. No one knows the future. The industry didn’t expect the Wii nor the DS to take off like they did. A "return to form"? Really, you can't have it both ways. One could have had easily made the same arguments for Sony with the PS3. Lucky, in Sony case, the whole gaming industry needed Sony to succeed. Nobody ever take this into account when discussing Nintendo’s platform. Nintendo’s handhelds was always seen as the redheaded stepchild of the gaming industry in the West and receive piss poor support (or if a quality game was even made, normally, it wasn’t marketed well).

Your last point is simply wrong, and informs me that there's no need to continue if that's really your perspective. It's the equivalent of saying Nintendo just has the portable market because all of their competition screwed up, which also isn't true.

You are wrong in the case of the Original Gameboy vs it competitors and the Gameboy Advance vs its competitors (it is something called “battery life”). Heck, even in the case of the PSP, that was basically a play by the gaming industry betting on Sony to end Nintendo’s dominance in the handheld space. There were plenty of AAA PSP games made(a 3D GTA that have yet to even to be released on a Nintendo platform) vs zero AAA games made by third parties on the DS. I wonder why that was the case? Or are you saying that Nintendo didn't mess up with the Wii U and the 3DS?


Stocks, how do they work?

The line of conversation in the thread is still valid.
There are many more reasons for Nintendo to consider eliminating a part of their business that has become less relevant in comparison to the greater market.
Some people here may not like that, but this just proves out that there is a much larger market they have access to via mobile, and especially in that region.

They should consider it.

They should consider giving up a billion dollars in revenue from their handheld division (in year with a lack luster release schedule and very poor third party games BTW) to solely pursue mobile gaming? Heck, very few mobile publishers rarely see this amount of revenue even from a string hit games.

Everybody is so obsessed over the larger number but yet nobody bothers to break down the numbers. When looking the demographics of mobile gamers, half literally comes from Asia. A market (apart from Japan) doesn’t even service and in the case of China couldn’t even service until now (and that may soon change due to new Chinese government regulations on how mobile games are handled i.e. needs approval from directly from the government). An another portion of mobile gaming is due to gambling, something I doubt even Nintendo will attempt to enter. Never mind, an another portion of mobile revenue come from advertisements, something else I doubt Nintendo would want. And this isn’t taking into the account how quick gameplay concepts can be clone and/or copied, the increasing cost of user acquisitions and shorting of time that users are actually engaged in a game. In short, there isn’t a one-to-one relationship to handheld to the mobile gaming space.

Furthermore, with the specs of the handheld, Nintendo can best optimize their games. Nintendo loses this ability when developing games for both iOS platform and especially the Android platforms where you are dealing with various hardware configurations and OS versions. This is one of Nintendo’s strengths that would be greatly undermined with giving up on the dedicated gaming market. No Super Mario 3D Land visuals on 3DS hardware; no Mario Kart 8 on Wii U level hardware; No Super Mario Galaxy on Wii level hardware; No 60 FPS Super Smash Bros on both 3DS and Wii U hardware and on and on….

So, Nintendo should give up one its core competence to solely chase a fickle market and wider market which it doesn’t have even the skillset to address?
 

Malakai

Member
There's no denying that Nintendo has been in the right place at the right time, more than a couple of times, and that not all of it comes down to expert planning. Even in the example you just mentioned.

The NES/Famicom was built to cash in on the boom that Atari created. In 1983, Nintendo was literally in negotiations with Atari to hand the Famicom over to them and let Atari release the Nintendo Atari Entertainment System in America. And then the great Atari crash of 1983 happened. That has to be some of the worst timing in the history of videogames. And it was too late to pull out. Nintendo was already committed. They had to release the NES into the smoking ruins of Atari's wake, they had to fight the uphill battle of convincing retailers that the NES wasn't going to bomb, and once they did that they found themselves alone in the clear blue sea with 99% marketshare, something that should've been nearly impossible had Atari not imploded and taken everyone else down with them.

The Roman philosopher Seneca said that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Nintendo has certain skills. When they're in the right place at the right time, they can succeed in ways that others seemingly can't. But Nintendo has been known to falter when no opportunities present themselves.

Thomas Edison said that genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. That doesn't quite describe Nintendo, IMO. It more describes Nintendo's competition.

Your Atari case is nothing but a counterfactual fallacy.


Really, the act of even conniving retailers to stock the NES after the Atari crash was quite a task in itself. Heck, having Nintendo of America executives venture in USSR to secure the rights to Tetris for the OG Gameboy seem to be an act of perspiration. The idea of pulling janitors and sectaries to play-test the Wii or even having the insight to carry out that course of action.
 

Vena

Member
Did Nintendo make a very bad deal?

Why is Niantic making most of the money when the Nintendo IP is what makes it a hit?

After Google/Apple's 30% hard cut off of the top, Nintendo's Trademark cut off the top (probably ~10%), the rest is split between TPC and Niantic (who knows what the ratios are there), and of the former a chunk of that goes back to Nintendo as equity.
 

Malakai

Member
It's almost like they had another platform that sold four times as much as GC in a market that has not only shrunk drastically since last gen, but has steadily declined over the course of this one.



I don't think 3DS offers a workable model for dedicated handhelds going forward, given how early sales peaked despite drastic price cuts and excellent software.

Muchomalo, point still stand. You are constantly arguing that the mobile market is so much larger than handheld market without examining nuances of the mobile market. The mobile market have so many different players it would be insane for Nintendo to give up it's handheld market especially when it is still profitable. However, there is no possible way for Nintendo to maintain a significant share of the mobile market consistent basis. For example, the most recent FY King profits are down by 10%. Investors not only want profits but predictability and stability as well. It is a lot easier to forecast the sales of hardware and software for your own platform vs predicting that this game will become a hit on iOS and Android. And even if a mobile game is hit who is to say how long it will last. (BTW The combination of the Wii U and the 3DS will most likely match 85% of the sales of the Gamecube and the Gameboy Advance combined sales despite the later being significantly cheaper and having higher margins.)
 
You act as if Nintendo won't release new hardware. Or any new hardware released by Nintendo won't succeed. No one knows the future. The industry didn’t expect the Wii nor the DS to take off like they did. A "return to form"? Really, you can't have it both ways. One could have had easily made the same arguments for Sony with the PS3. Lucky, in Sony case, the whole gaming industry needed Sony to succeed. Nobody ever take this into account when discussing Nintendo’s platform. Nintendo’s handhelds was always seen as the redheaded stepchild of the gaming industry in the West and receive piss poor support (or if a quality game was even made, normally, it wasn’t marketed well).

Here's the thing--if you have declining marketshare and units sold for 3 out of the past 4 generations, and all of this is basically due to 1 company, then you have been bested all but one time. That's basically it. Saying otherwise is simple fiction.

You are wrong in the case of the Original Gameboy vs it competitors and the Gameboy Advance vs its competitors (it is something called “battery life”). Heck, even in the case of the PSP, that was basically a play by the gaming industry betting on Sony to end Nintendo’s dominance in the handheld space. There were plenty of AAA PSP games made(a 3D GTA that have yet to even to be released on a Nintendo platform) vs zero AAA games made by third parties on the DS. I wonder why that was the case? Or are you saying that Nintendo didn't mess up with the Wii U and the 3DS?

People forget that the DS and PSP were neck and neck for a while until Nintendogs and a few other hits that pushed the DS, flat out because they were better games. GBA, SP, etc compared to the Game Gear, etc was consistently in Nintendo's favor. And more over--the same developers that gave support to Sony weren't just doing because they wanted to end dominance, but to see the same level of success that they just saw with the PS1 and PS2, the only two consoles to push 100M+ at that point.

Not to mention that they received a better deal from Sony, despite having difficult hardware with the PS2.

They should consider giving up a billion dollars in revenue from their handheld division (in year with a lack luster release schedule and very poor third party games BTW) to solely pursue mobile gaming? Heck, very few mobile publishers rarely see this amount of revenue even from a string hit games.

Hmm, let's see what I actually said:

There are many more reasons for Nintendo to consider eliminating a part of their business that has become less relevant in comparison to the greater market.
Some people here may not like that, but this just proves out that there is a much larger market they have access to via mobile, and especially in that region.

I am arguing that they should consider eliminating hardware.
Part of the reason that Nintendo could expect larger success is because they actually know how to make fun games, much more than most mobile games studios. And yes, their upside to releasing games in the largest and fastest growing region in the world for mobile games is much greater than 1 billion dollars. Hence, they would be fools to not consider it. They could even keep their archaic division and move more of the pipeline to mobile and still capitalize.

Everybody is so obsessed over the larger number but yet nobody bothers to break down the numbers. When looking the demographics of mobile gamers, half literally comes from Asia. A market (apart from Japan) doesn’t even service and in the case of China couldn’t even service until now (and that may soon change due to new Chinese government regulations on how mobile games are handled i.e. needs approval from directly from the government). An another portion of mobile gaming is due to gambling, something I doubt even Nintendo will attempt to enter. Never mind, an another portion of mobile revenue come from advertisements, something else I doubt Nintendo would want. And this isn’t taking into the account how quick gameplay concepts can be clone and/or copied, the increasing cost of user acquisitions and shorting of time that users are actually engaged in a game. In short, there isn’t a one-to-one relationship to handheld to the mobile gaming space.

Ok, so you got nothing. No biggie.
Take a visit to AppAnnie, and look at say, the top 50 grossing games. Then go back next year and the year before. Not a grand amount of movement the higher you go--and this is with the increased costs. Copycats pop up every day, but most of them fail, largely because they are copycats without enough real difference and/or marketing to win.

The premise of your argument is that Nintendo, with a rich history of making fun games, mini-games, platformers, RPGs, would be unable to afford this cost, and unable to recoup greater revenue because the barrier to entry is too high?

I laughed. You should look up how much it takes to launch a new platform sometime.

Furthermore, with the specs of the handheld, Nintendo can best optimize their games. Nintendo loses this ability when developing games for both iOS platform and especially the Android platforms where you are dealing with various hardware configurations and OS versions. This is one of Nintendo’s strengths that would be greatly undermined with giving up on the dedicated gaming market. No Super Mario 3D Land visuals on 3DS hardware; no Mario Kart 8 on Wii U level hardware; No Super Mario Galaxy on Wii level hardware; No 60 FPS Super Smash Bros on both 3DS and Wii U hardware and on and on….

Not really. Optimizing their games is fairly easy. iOS is one spec. Android has a few different OS, but most companies will release for the most popular specs. The costs of optimizing against a few market spec phones vs building, developing and maintaining your own hardware, with teams, annual budget and updates as well as logistic pipeline, stock estimation isn't even a fair comparison. The former is cheaper.

So, Nintendo should give up one its core competence to solely chase a fickle market and wider market which it doesn’t have even the skillset to address?

Nintendo's core competence is making games, period. Translating your core competence to new markets is a basic tenant of staying in business. It's why you can buy latte's at McDonalds and now customize your burger.

Your argument says they should stay in their niche as long as possible before giving up and moving to mobile. I'm saying they should hedge more bets there because there is very little to suggest that the NX will be a hit product or market leader, and it is much better to have a few products for a growing market in the oven.
 

Malakai

Member
Here's the thing--if you have declining marketshare and units sold for 3 out of the past 4 generations, and all of this is basically due to 1 company, then you have been bested all but one time. That's basically it. Saying otherwise is simple fiction.



People forget that the DS and PSP were neck and neck for a while until Nintendogs and a few other hits that pushed the DS, flat out because they were better games. GBA, SP, etc compared to the Game Gear, etc was consistently in Nintendo's favor. And more over--the same developers that gave support to Sony weren't just doing because they wanted to end dominance, but to see the same level of success that they just saw with the PS1 and PS2, the only two consoles to push 100M+ at that point.

Not to mention that they received a better deal from Sony, despite having difficult hardware with the PS2.



Hmm, let's see what I actually said:



I am arguing that they should consider eliminating hardware.
Part of the reason that Nintendo could expect larger success is because they actually know how to make fun games, much more than most mobile games studios. And yes, their upside to releasing games in the largest and fastest growing region in the world for mobile games is much greater than 1 billion dollars. Hence, they would be fools to not consider it. They could even keep their archaic division and move more of the pipeline to mobile and still capitalize.



Ok, so you got nothing. No biggie.
Take a visit to AppAnnie, and look at say, the top 50 grossing games. Then go back next year and the year before. Not a grand amount of movement the higher you go--and this is with the increased costs. Copycats pop up every day, but most of them fail, largely because they are copycats without enough real difference and/or marketing to win.

The premise of your argument is that Nintendo, with a rich history of making fun games, mini-games, platformers, RPGs, would be unable to afford this cost, and unable to recoup greater revenue because the barrier to entry is too high?

I laughed. You should look up how much it takes to launch a new platform sometime.



Not really. Optimizing their games is fairly easy. iOS is one spec. Android has a few different OS, but most companies will release for the most popular specs. The costs of optimizing against a few market spec phones vs building, developing and maintaining your own hardware, with teams, annual budget and updates as well as logistic pipeline, stock estimation isn't even a fair comparison. The former is cheaper.



Nintendo's core competence is making games, period. Translating your core competence to new markets is a basic tenant of staying in business. It's why you can buy latte's at McDonalds and now customize your burger.

Your argument says they should stay in their niche as long as possible before giving up and moving to mobile. I'm saying they should hedge more bets there because there is very little to suggest that the NX will be a hit product or market leader, and it is much better to have a few products for a growing market in the oven.

I was going to do a break down of this long-wind tirade. However, considering you flat-out making up straw man arguments, miss construe my words i'm going to keep this short: It would be idiotic for Nintendo to abandon hardware. It would be idiotic for Nintendo to abandon hardware.
 
I was going to do a break down of this long-wind tirade. However, considering you flat-out making up straw man arguments, miss construe my words i'm going to keep this short: It would be idiotic for Nintendo to abandon hardware. It would be idiotic for Nintendo to abandon hardware.

We can drop it here and pick it up in a few years.
It's not like the mobile market is going anywhere.
 
We can drop it here and pick it up in a few years.
It's not like the mobile market is going anywhere.

Malakai has said flat-out, in the face of all evidence, that mobile gaming has had no impact on the dedicated gaming market. Which even Nintendo itself doesn't agree with. So, yeah.
 

tanooki27

Member
There's no denying that Nintendo has been in the right place at the right time, more than a couple of times, and that not all of it comes down to expert planning. Even in the example you just mentioned.

The NES/Famicom was built to cash in on the boom that Atari created. In 1983, Nintendo was literally in negotiations with Atari to hand the Famicom over to them and let Atari release the Nintendo Atari Entertainment System in America. And then the great Atari crash of 1983 happened. That has to be some of the worst timing in the history of videogames. And it was too late to pull out. Nintendo was already committed. They had to release the NES into the smoking ruins of Atari's wake, they had to fight the uphill battle of convincing retailers that the NES wasn't going to bomb, and once they did that they found themselves alone in the clear blue sea with 99% marketshare, something that should've been nearly impossible had Atari not imploded and taken everyone else down with them.

The Roman philosopher Seneca said that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Nintendo has certain skills. When they're in the right place at the right time, they can succeed in ways that others seemingly can't. But Nintendo has been known to falter when no opportunities present themselves.

Thomas Edison said that genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. That doesn't quite describe Nintendo, IMO. It more describes Nintendo's competition.

interesting stuff.
 
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