nelsonroyale
Member
haha this looked very nice dammit, much more interesting at this point than lo, although it is further along
peace
peace
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Blue Dragon (Xbox360) Pre-TGS Hype thread + Possible release date
- Thread starter duckroll
- Start date
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
An RPG bundle in the US would own. I don't think an RPG has ever been bundled with a console in the US, right?
A Black Falcon
Member
It's definitely a problem. Japanese RPGs for the most part are still using concepts (invented by late '70s American computer RPGs) that the majority of PC RPGs abandoned in the early '90s for better, more advanced gameplay designs... I can enjoy console RPGs sometimes when they are fun, but I never cease to notice how many ways their game designs are archaic compared to most major PC RPGs released over the past nine or ten years... random battles, static lines of units in a battle fought in some separate battle screen, no strategic movement during combat, etc, etc... playing Baldur's Gate before any major console RPGs left me spoiled.
It's pretty sad that even now console RPGs are still copying Wizardry I (that game seems to have made more of an impact on Japan than its close predecessor Akalabeth) while games like Pool of Radiance, Fallout, and Baldur's Gate made so many important innovations to the genre that they nearly completely ignore... while the way that J-RPGs have developed storytelling in the genre is great, and a definite contrast to those early PC RPGs, it can't completely cover and make up for the gameplay. Games are, after all, an interactive medium, so gameplay should matter a lot...Anyway, I watched the Blue Dragon trailer, left me completely uninterested and bored... maybe part of it is the whole "watching J-RPG battles is really boring" thing, though. It looks like a perfectly competent JRPG that does absolutely nothing to advance the genre (besides seeming to actually show the enemies on the map, which is nice, but not a "this makes it great" thing all by itsself...) Actually playing it might be more fun.
I actually really liked Skies of Arcadia (a game that I wasn't really expecting to like given my past opinions on console RPGs, but did for some reason...), but this doesn't seem much like that really...
charlequin
Banned
A Black Falcon said:
I don't understand why you wRPG boosters can't understand that jRPGs have a different (rather than "worse") gameplay focus than something like Baldur's Gate. Separate battle screens and lack of tactical movement have their own purpose and enable gameplay distinct from what wRPGs offer.
If you want to hassle jRPGs for not innovating much in the last gen or so within their own genre, that's probably a fair criticism, but saying that the field as a whole is akin to a 25-year old PC game is just ignant.
A Black Falcon
Member
Yes, this is true. And PC RPGs have benefitted from the increased story focus of console RPGs -- my favorite RPG ever is Planescape: Torment, which definitely was at least partly inspired to put so much focus into story by console RPGs, while also having a lot of the openness of PC ones...
I didn't say "worse" (as in the idea that games that don't use newer game designs are inherently worse just by that fact), I said "archaic". There's a difference there -- certainly something with a design inspired by older game design ideas can be a good, fun game... but that doesn't change the fact that the base gameplay system is outdated. Some games will take various old ideas and make games that are fun and unique anyway -- just look at Riviera (which was awesome)... I'm talking more about the overall trend than about any one specifc games (that is, like how within PC gaming, there are still some RPGs which continue the old traditions of the early RPGs, and they have plenty of fans...). Despite being old and archaic, the (PC) Wizardry games are still great games...
Anyway though, there is of course more to the difference between Baldur's Gate and your average console RPG than just where you fight and whether you can move in combat, though those are important points. Some other things that BG did really well include item collection -- though wolves and stuff do still carry coins on themselves somehow, you don't get things like potions from them. Enemies drop the equippable items they are carrying... so humanoid enemies drop weapons and armor you can pick up and sell if you wish, as well as perhaps a potion or arrows or something. It just adds to the feeling that it's a more consistent world... and then of course there is the referenced choice aspect. PC RPGs generally are designed to have you play the character you want to, not a predetermined one. It's definitely an important difference... I definitely am of the opinion that giving the player choice in the story, and not just making it a linear path where all you need to do to progress in the story is get to the next plot point location, is a good thing, but some people don't like that... (like how you actually have to search out story points, or how you can miss things if you go through the conversation trees in different ways, etc... it's not an RPG, but even something like Metroid Prime is a decent comparison... was its story presentation where you had to actively look around and scan things for the best, or should it have been a more traditional one where it just tells you it? I liked the way they did it...) it just adds to the role-playing that is what the genre is supposed to be about.
Of course, making games that way is a whole lot harder than simply telling a story with pre-determined characters, but that doesn't mean that it's any worse of an idea...
Calling them different genres is, at this point, probably a good idea, but it is important to note that they started from the same root (Dragon Warrior 1 copied a LOT of its gameplay ideas from the first three Ultima games for instance...), and when they split apart, which is what I did there...
A Black Falcon said:It's definitely a problem. Japanese RPGs for the most part are still using concepts (invented by late '70s American computer RPGs) that the majority of PC RPGs abandoned in the early '90s for better, more advanced gameplay designs... I can enjoy console RPGs sometimes when they are fun, but I never cease to notice how many ways their game designs are archaic compared to most major PC RPGs released over the past nine or ten years... random battles, static lines of units in a battle fought in some separate battle screen, no strategic movement during combat, etc, etc... playing Baldur's Gate before any major console RPGs left me spoiled.
There are plenty of Japanese RPGs that don't use those old concepts (Paper Mario, Fire Emblem, Disgaea, Dark Cloud, Ogre Battle, Tales series, Mana series, FF Tactics, Star Ocean, etc...). The real problem is that the majority of them don't reach the popularity of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy titles which causes most Japanese developers to want to copy that success.
I just noticed they pushed the opening of the official site from the 22nd to Oct 7th.
www.bluedragon.tv
www.bluedragon.tv
DarknessTear
Banned
The game really does seem like it could be a winner... just disappointed with the specials cutting off a bit.
A Black Falcon
Member
There's definitely truth to this, though it does come with a catch. On the one hand, all of the game serieses mentioned there are great -- I have games from all of those serieses except Dark Cloud and Disgaea. But... well, first, I consider Fire Emblem, Disgaea, and Ogre Battle strategy games. They are strategy games first, with RPG elements... but the console strategy game genre wasn't strong enough when the "Strategy-RPG" label was invented I guess, so they get called "RPGs". Anyway though... the games you mention, with Paper Mario's exception, fall into two groups: "strategy-RPGs" and action-RPGs (that is, RPGs with action combat systems). There is no middle ground like a Baldur's Gate or even a Fallout. If the game doesn't have a standard console RPG battle system, it's got to either be a hack-and-slash game or a full-on strategy game, if it's Japanese... and while all three of those subgenres are fine options, it leaves little room for the kind of things PC RPGs have added to the genre over the years.
I know that a few games are exceptions (Final Fantasy XII for instance?), but in the majority, it's quite true.
http://gemaga.sbcr.jp/archives/2006/09/90.html
The playable booth for Blue Dragon at TGS has a 90 MINUTE WAITING LINE NOW! :O
The playable booth for Blue Dragon at TGS has a 90 MINUTE WAITING LINE NOW! :O
Risin up
back on the street
did my time took my chances
went the distance now I'm back on my feet
just a man and his will to survive
so many times
it happens too fast
you trade your passion for glory
don't lose your grip on the dreams of the past
you must fight just to keep them alive
Karma Kramer
Banned
Wow 90 minutes! What about Lost Oddyssey... ?
MightyHedgehog
Member
Impressive. I'm thinking that there will be a nice spike in system sales for the first month that BD is released. I'll guess that BD could be responsible for more than half a million systems moved there within three months of release. What's the reaction for LO? I'd imgine less enthused because it doesn't feature Toriyama.
edit: tempered for realism.
edit: tempered for realism.
Blimblim said:I have lots of Trusty Bell footage upcoming
Hey blim I saw some of your impressions of sonys games and conference on the playstation forums did you leave any here and are there any updated thoughts. Thanks there's been to much to read through since I just got off work.
DreamMachine
Member
Blimblim said:I have lots of Trusty Bell footage upcoming
Sounds awesome.
Sorry to hear about ms taking down your footage, hope you get that stuff back up asap.
â Narayan
Member
This is a paradox.duckroll said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Snaku said:
Makes me wonder what the lines are for everything else. I mean, surely this can't be an isolated incident. Or at least, isolated to Microsoft.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
duckroll said:
That's more like it.
The Innocent X
Banned
Prine said:
Check out chittagongs thread. Big queues, but they are showing it in a theatre, so maybe thats why
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
IGN said:
WHOA!! Dragons have levels??
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!
Awesome Preview. RPG Of The -- MARUMAROMARUMARO!!!!!
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
ronito said:
I guess that counts although I don't want to start a whole "Zelda is/isn't a true RPG" debate!