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[Elaugaufein]

I don't think Agnes ever wears the bikini in any of the scenes and Edea just wears the altered one.

Agnes wears it off screen, but you never see her wear it (apart from as a Square Member Site reward , if you beat the entire game on Hard mode, when you get it as an equippable costume in the Japanese version). Edea wears it , in the side quest mentioned, but its the appropriate version for the region you're in (I'm guessing that behind the scenes what happens is that the game actually equips the costume in question).

 

[zeopower6]

This is how I see it. Japanese stuff has been getting so greasy. I think the anime Elfen lied's pedo scenes pushed me over the edge where I'm pretty weary of Japanese entertainment now.

It's been like that for a while, but there must have been a reason for whatever happened in Elfen Lied. That show had people's limbs exploding among other things, so I'm not sure if that anime was ever one to not try to push boundaries. Wasn't there an ACTUAL pedophile in that manga/anime anyway? It's not like it was "Oh, this can be thought of as pedophilia" but it was a part of the storyline for a character from what I understand.

 

[2+2=5]

Frankly i'm really disappointed, i thought that Bravely Default was one of those extremely rare Japanese games without fanservice, instead it also felt into the child looking characters in skimpy outfits.
How foolish i was...

 

[Village]

The thing is that if you're not taking things away I'm not sure why you're arguing with me. I already stated that if you wanted to see the creation of more stuff you like , I'm 100% behind that, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of stuff that you don't like. But you're argument seems to be that you can only get more stuff that you like, if less stuff you don't like is produced. And that actually is damaging other people. .

It will to some degree.

" hey there are less harmful stereotypes and tropes in our games and more other things "

And you should want that, as a human being I assume gives a shit about other human beings. Who's gaming experience , i assume, does not completely rely on those things being in your game.

They aren't all gone just a bit less that and more new stuff. Life is change, sometimes less of thing happens.

To give an example: I don't like female main characters being focus tested into males or not approved otherwise. But if someone envisions the main character as a male I'm equally against social justice movements pressuring that character into being female. I'm 100% for more games featuring diverse casts , I'm just against the idea that you get to force a creator to change his vision of the game so it now has a diverse cast, if it didn't originally. If you want to start a foundation to fund more games with diverse casts let me know and I'll happily chip in money, since I view it as a worthy cause. If you want to start a foundation to force games in production to change their cast to be more diverse then I don't want to support that.

1) every Creator that isn't like Godamned Kojima and even then, gets things forced into their game. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Because its a crew making the game, their vision almost never comes out raw. Please end this fantasy that game design is directly like an artist with a paint brush. It isn't it takes a long as time, and teams of people who a lot of time get say into what works and what doesn't. Along with the notion that investors also have some say that goes in, and can be the ones inserting these harmful things, so the 100% un censored version of the game so desire might not even have those things in it. How games are actually designed most times, completely defeats your logic entirely.


2) Besides culture as a whole gently "forcing" people to lessen the stereotypes and greaten the inclusion. Besides aforementioned forces no one is forcing anyone to do anything, suggestions. No one is being hostile, all we are are suggesting things.

 

[_hekk05]

It's been like that for a while, but there must have been a reason for whatever happened in Elfen Lied. That show had people's limbs exploding among other things, so I'm not sure if that anime was ever one to not try to push boundaries. Wasn't there an ACTUAL pedophile in that manga/anime anyway? It's not like it was "Oh, this can be thought of as pedophilia" but it was a part of the storyline for a character from what I understand.

I always thought their nudity was an expression of how they were treated as mere animals. And yet the show contrasts that with how they do have feelings and thoughts, but end up having to rely on killing in a primal, savage way to defend themselves or take revenge.

 

[zeopower6]

1) every Creator that isn't like Godamned Kojima and even then, gets things forced into their game. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Because its a crew making the game, their vision almost never comes out raw. Please end this fantasy that game design is directly like an artist with a paint brush. It isn't it takes a long as time, and teams of people who a lot of time get say into what works and what doesn't. Along with the notion that investors also have some say that goes in, and can be the ones inserting these harmful things, so the 100% un censored version of the game so desire might not even have those things in it.

I don't think anyone wants something that is 'uncensored' in the sense that the developer themselves hasn't changed things. (since at that point it's just an unedited mess)

People just want whatever they got in Japan + translation. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think Agnes ever wears the bikini in any of the scenes and Edea just wears the altered one.

I am more curious about the text changes. A bad 3D model in a swimsuit is something I am entirely indifferent to.

 

[Quote]

I'm okay with this change.

 

[DCharlie]

I wish they would add in a TL note, similar to what we see in scantalated manga, when they deviate from the original.

but half the scanslated manga i've seen make mistakes or take things WAY too literal to the extent that subtleties and nuance is lost or -totally missed- - i'd be dead set against it.

Also - without someone who has played the games through in the original language most people aren't going to give a toss.

As you've put it, it doesn't affect the gameplay or its story. So why did the change occur?

I'm sure someone has probably mentioned it but perhaps it's as simple as sexual themes + underage characters = M rating = less sales?

As an aside , i wonder if the changes are in the BD: For the Sequel? It has English Language, but i just wonder if the ages are also changed or... if the ages in the Japanese version have changed? I have it - perhaps i should actually get around to it after my half arsed 12 hours in the original?

People just want whatever they got in Japan + translation. Why is that so difficult to understand?

again - as per the above the censorship standards are different - there's also going to be problems bringing stuff that wouldn't raise an eyebrow over from Japan to the West.

 

[Elaugaufein]

anyone remember when fire emblem awakening came out and you could mate with a 1000+ year old dragon loli and have kids with her

haha that shit was hilarious

No, because that didn't happen (at least not like you're saying it). The only time where "mating" occurs in FEA is Chrom and whoever he marries. Chrom's daughter is the only one who exists as a child in the main game timeline. The S rank marriage proposals are generally incredibly god damn weird actually, since things are generally some friendship and light flirting , that suddenly becomes proposals. There's no indication in the game of when the kids parents do the dirty, with the previous exception. There's even some hints that not every child is from the same timeline. The worst thing you actually see on screen is Nowi's costume and maybe the Avatar marrying one of the second generation depending on how you feel about that sort of thing.

 

[Principate]

I don't think anyone wants something that is 'uncensored' in the sense that the developer themselves hasn't changed things. (since at that point it's just an unedited mess)

People just want whatever they got in Japan + translation. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Some people do, the creators have deemed those some people to be not worth it including a second version of all the stuff or not censoring at all and potentially losing sales/gaining bad publicity.

That's what this is about really. People want stuff developers/publishers deem it as not worth their effort and so people don't get stuff. Same reason games are not localised or made at all.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Agnes wears it off screen, but you never see her wear it (apart from as a Square Member Site reward , if you beat the entire game on Hard mode, when you get it as an equippable costume in the Japanese version). Edea wears it , in the side quest mentioned, but its the appropriate version for the region you're in (I'm guessing that behind the scenes what happens is that the game actually equips the costume in question).

Yeah, your description is more accurate.

I am more curious about the text changes. A bad 3D model in a swimsuit is something I am entirely indifferent to.

I haven't played the original and I don't speak any Japanese but so far nobody has come forth and presented a specific example.

I have played the European version though, the sexual innuendo is still there. If they have toned it down, the Japanese version must have been anything but subtle though.

 

[_hekk05]

but half the scanslated manga i've seen make mistakes or take things WAY too literal to the extent that subtleties and nuance is lost or -totally missed- - i'd be dead set against it.

Unfortunately, we have to trust in the competency of the localisation effort for that. The best way, of course, is to become fluent in Japanese.

 

[Dire]

Do you care about a person's blood type? Do you believe the blood type can change someone's personality?

Japanese people do (at least some of them) enough to specify a character's blood type in a LOT of media (games/anime/manga).

The numbers (age) are clearly useless just like the blood type.

I think this is actually a reasonable example of why censorship, even outside an ethical point of view, is irritating. Censorship is essentially one body changing their product (or somebody else's) to something that they think is okay for that person to digest. Censorship essentially hides aspects of one culture from another. If somebody feels like a bad person because a video game they purchase says 15 instead of 18 in a 0.5" cartoon character's profile, well they've got their own issues to sort out. I think it's interesting to see the differences in media created in various countries as originally intended.

American games ranging from our hoard of military shooters to games like Fallout 3 are routinely banned and censored in other countries typically due to depictions or references of violent acts. This is acceptable in the US as we have a culture far more accepting of violence in media than many other countries. I generally oppose the depiction of violent acts against real locations/nationalities in US-centric games to say nothing of so many shooters seemingly turning into kill-all-the-brown-people but I equally oppose the censoring of them in other countries. If this is our country's culture it shouldn't be hidden away.

 

[Village]

People just want whatever they got in Japan + translation. Why is that so difficult to understand?

I understand that part, I agree with that part completely. ( well mostly some games... racist ect )


I am just arguing these notions

1) because a work is fictional it should not be critcized in such a way that might imply it may have a harmful effect on society and or generally being messed up work. BD is non of this, I just don't like that this is the lapse in logic people went to defend this instead of arguing directly about the thing.

2) intent matters in anything

3) The myth that most games are one guys vision.

4) that making more inclusive and less harmful types of games would take the old ones away. And make those the only games to be made.

Do not have an issue with BD , do not have an issue with teh OG version of BD.

Have an issue on peoples logic in its defense.

 

[BGBW]

An entire thread complaining about "They censored a sexual inuendo!!!" while the inuendo is still in the game and if you are not a complete retard you will get it.

The article in the OP makes it sound like they removed all innuendos from the game which is why people thought that was editing gone too far. It was only when people who have the game clarified the issue that it was dropped. Really the OP should edit his posts to clarify this.

 

[Mozendo]

1000+ year old dragon loli

If she's over 1,000 years old is she really a loli?

 

[Garcia]

I don't think you should. That part of the game is obviously intended to be disturbing. It fits the setting and the "corruption" of the world.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

When the party arrives at the female-only city of Florem, which used to be very pious and modest according to Agnes (the brunette one), they noticed that the female-only population has become extremely superficial because of a beauty craze mediated by some external actors trying to make a profit. To get the attention of an old friend who is in hiding, Agnes is forced to take part in a beauty contest and the party decides that she needs to have an especially beautiful and later "sexy" outfit. Agnes gets incredibly uncomfortable in the bikini and Tiz, the moral compass of the party, tells her that she doesn't have to wear it if she doesn't want to. Later, Edea (the blond one) sees it as the only way to lure in the playboy villain the party suspects to be involved in the disappearances of Florem's citizens.

Holy crap. It all falls into place now. The outfits are temporary and only serve a purpose in the story from a narrative point of view.

Thank you for sharing this. This thread could've pretty much ended on page 1 if more people knew the context behind those outfits.

 

[Village]

If she's over 1,000 years old is she really a loli?

Loli's are forever.

 

[afoni]

If she's over 1,000 years old is she really a loli?

because everyone is up in arms about stupid shit ill post a picture instead of answering in the hopes that someone starts crying in fear that the police are coming for them because they saw a young girl barely dressed

i think she still counts

 

[Zane]

I hope you all realize that by saying the ages don't matter, you're also criticizing the games ability to emotionally resonate with folks.

 

[DCharlie]

The article in the OP makes it sound like they removed all innuendos from the game which is why people thought that was editing gone too far

I'm sure the discussion is already in this thread but surely the trigger that there were changes were the two obvious points : the age change and the costume changes.

Beyond that - people are then arguing about the changing of some sexual innuendo based on what people who have played both version are saying.

I really seriously doubt people would give a flying toss if it was JUST the removal of the innuendos

 

[BGBW]

This is how I see it. Japanese stuff has been getting so greasy. I think the anime Elfen lied's pedo scenes pushed me over the edge where I'm pretty weary of Japanese entertainment now.

Why would you judge the output of a whole country on a bad show? I guess I could say Americans can't write a joke to save their life because I saw Big Bang Theory!

 

[The Technomancer]

I hope you all realize that by saying the ages don't matter, you're also criticizing the games ability to emotionally resonate with folks.

This is essentially what I have to argue for in every single thread like this: that people often want to have their cake and eat it too. That the way things are designed, written, etc, does matter when its things they like or approve of but as soon as someone has a negative reaction to something "whoa lighten up man, what's the problem, its not real"

 

[Bucca]

The fact that this thread is nearly 20 pages now is absolutely mindblowing.

They're just edited outfits; purely cosmetic and affect nothing in the short or long-run, get over it.

 

[Village]

Why would you judge the output of a whole country on a bad show? I guess I could say Americans can't write a joke to save their life because I saw Big Bang Theory!

I dunno I am from the US and I am ashamed of us as a whole because of that show.

 

[Zane]

This is essentially what I have to argue for in every single thread like this: that people often want to have their cake and eat it too. That the way things are designed, written, etc, does matter when its things they like or approve of but as soon as someone has a negative reaction to something "whoa lighten up man, what's the problem, its not real"

Yup. Either the game is emotionally affecting and thus little details like ages and character appearance DO matter, meaning that people are perfectly allowed to have a negative reaction... or the story goes over like a wet loud fart at a party and thus such details don't matter, in which case why do any of you care if the outfits are censored anyway?

 

[BGBW]

The fact that this thread is nearly 20 pages now is absolutely mindblowing.

They're just edited outfits; purely cosmetic and affect nothing in the short or long-run, get over it.

You know this thread discusses more than just the outfits right?

 

[rpmurphy]

If she's over 1,000 years old is she really a loli?

No idea if 1000 Manakete years is still like a child, but she certainly has a personality like one, so probably? There are other female Manaketes in the series that aren't like her.

Nowi and Vaike is OTP, by the way. Their support convos are heart-melting.

 

[Htown]

The fact that this thread is nearly 20 pages now is absolutely mindblowing.

They're just edited outfits; purely cosmetic and affect nothing in the short or long-run, get over it.

People get pissed when they can't get their underaged anime character outfits skimpy enough, I guess.

 

[Zane]

Yup. Either the game is emotionally affecting and thus little details like ages and character appearance DO matter, meaning that people are perfectly allowed to have a negative reaction... or the story goes over like a wet loud fart at a party and thus such details don't matter, in which case why do any of you care if the outfits are censored anyway?

Edited more to get my point across better

 

[Elaugaufein]

It will to some degree.

" hey there are less harmful stereotypes and tropes in our games and more other things "

And you should want that, as a human being I assume gives a shit about other human beings. Who's gaming experience , i assume, does not completely rely on those things being in your game.

They aren't all gone just a bit less that and more new stuff. Life is change, sometimes less of thing happens.




1) every Creator that isn't like Godamned Kojima and even then, gets things forced into their game. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Because its a crew making the game, their vision almost never comes out raw. Please end this fantasy that game design is directly like an artist with a paint brush. It isn't it takes a long as time, and teams of people who a lot of time get say into what works and what doesn't. Along with the notion that investors also have some say that goes in, and can be the ones inserting these harmful things, so the 100% un censored version of the game so desire might not even have those things in it. How games are actually designed most times, completely defeats your logic entirely.


2) Besides culture as a whole gently "forcing" people to lessen the stereotypes and greaten the inclusion. Besides aforementioned forces no one is forcing anyone to do anything, suggestions. No one is being hostile, all we are are suggesting things.

Now you've clearly stated you do want to stop the production of certain things. You think the weight of morality is on your side in this. That's an argument worth having. Perhaps you are right, but it also becomes clear why people might disagree with you. They think the weight of morality isn't on your side and you're doing harm by stopping the production of those things, or perhaps they agree with the moral force of your argument but view stopping the production of those things as a potential greater immorality (e.g me),.

"We don't want to take things away and anyone who says we do is just crying censorship even though at this exact moment I want X to stop being portrayed" isn't an argument worth having, because no possible argument can exist against "We aren't doing anything so I don't see why you're getting upset".

I don't care if a lesser percentage of games are of the type I like (frankly as someone who's primarily a turn-based JRPG / SRPG fan, I'm used to it), but I do get concerned about a reduction in the absolute number of things because that tends to lead to a spiral of disinterest which ends in very small numbers because everything is profitability/focused tested to death.

If you want more games with greater diversity and you achieve that through producing more games then I not only have no issue, you have my active support.

This is probably where our disagreement occurs, I want more games that (insert group here) are comfortable playing but the idea that the only way that can happen is if you force things like Dragon's Crown to not exist is one that strikes me as deeply wrong and something worth fighting against. Just because you've been oppressed doesn't give you the right to oppress others.

And even some of the stuff that features stuff you dislike you may quiet enjoy e.g I'm an agnostic (in the sense that I acknowledge that we cannot be certain that divine beings/forces don't exist but I'm reasonably certain that if gods exist they certainly aren't those of any existing religion as written) but I still have a pretty high opinion the Chronicles of Narnia, despite them being thinly veiled Christian allegory.

 

[Bucca]

You know this thread discusses more than just the outfits right?

The thread has become more about the age and the portrayal of the characters in relation to their age than about the editing of the outfits themselves.

Is it unnecessary they edited them? Probably, yeah. But the fact that the last Nth pages have been more or less arguing back and forth between the ethical nature of loli design and the costumes designed for them isn't getting anywhere besides baiting those who like to imply that people who like the original designs are "pedophiles" or whatever.

In all, this thread went way beyond what was initially just a simple edit of age and outfit design.

 

[Nibiru]

Why do they have to sexualize children. It's kind of indefensible imo. I also never thought that being against the sexualization of children was being a prude lol. I am against censorship but I don't think images, even cartoon images of half naked pre-teens is really a censorship issue.

 

[The Technomancer]

I will also say this completely selfish thing: as someone who thinks the more modest designs are an improvement, as a pretty large fan of JRPGs who thinks that recent character designs and *ugh* "fanservice" are often really offputting the idea of a fun, classic, apparently very good JRPG that is being designed to appeal more to me and not less for once its pretty attractive. I was always planning on buying BD but this certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[Crash Station]

This is how I see it. Japanese stuff has been getting so greasy. I think the anime Elfen lied's pedo scenes pushed me over the edge where I'm pretty weary of Japanese entertainment now.

I like Elfen Lied, but it isn't even close to being a standard representation of Japanese entertainment.


Why is this thread not locked yet? A good chunk of this discussion doesn't even pertain to the topic anymore. Not to mention all the accusations and ad hominems being thrown around...

 

[Bucca]

I like Elfen Lied, but it isn't even close to being a standard representation of Japanese entertainment.


Why is this thread not locked yet? A good chunk of this discussion doesn't even pertain to the topic anymore. Not to mention all the accusations and ad hominems being thrown around...

Exactly.

 

[buddha0991]

People get pissed when they can't get their underaged anime character outfits skimpy enough, I guess.

Shit like this and the polar opposite on the other side is why this topic is still going. Vitriol on both sides, kind of sad really.

 

[Jarmel]

This is essentially what I have to argue for in every single thread like this: that people often want to have their cake and eat it too. That the way things are designed, written, etc, does matter when its things they like or approve of but as soon as someone has a negative reaction to something "whoa lighten up man, what's the problem, its not real"

I hope you all realize that by saying the ages don't matter, you're also criticizing the games ability to emotionally resonate with folks.

Some arbitrary number, that has no impact on the quality of the game, affects the game's ability to emotionally resonate?

Also as much as people might wish it to be, games and real life are two separate things.

 

[Crash Station]

I am against censorship but I don't think images, even cartoon images of half naked pre-teens is really a censorship issue.

If something completely despicable and illegal is censored, it's still technically a censorship issue. This happens to be neither (well, I guess it could be illegal in some countries).

 

[Mik317]

People get pissed when they can't get their underaged anime character outfits skimpy enough, I guess.

No.

These threads explode because of the silly name calling and generalization.

Anyone who doesn't get super outraged or even slightly like it are pedos or creepers. Then you got tools calling out people because of their avatars and then morons calling the artist a child molester.

These threads explode because they get so goddam toxic so fast. People, from both "sides", end up ignoring a lot of good points because of this.

This thread has left the main point 20 pages ago. People are too fucking quick to just drive-by with "lol look at this pedo shit...these nerds are mad because they can't jerk off to their kiddy porn lolololol" and it kills any chance at a conversation. Equally sad because those fools then never return to the thread and had nothign of value to add to it.

 

[Nibiru]

Why is this thread not locked yet? A good chunk of this discussion doesn't even pertain to the topic anymore.

How exactly was this topic to be discussed? There was literally only one way it could go. Those who think it's appropriate and those that don't. Posters need to stop trying to be mods imo.

 

[Zane]

Some arbitrary number, that has no impact on the quality of the game, affects the game's ability to emotionally resonate?

Also as much as people might wish it to be, games and real life are two separate things.

Yes. If the characters were toddlers, would you not relate to them differently?

 

[The Technomancer]

Some arbitrary number, that has no impact on the quality of the game, affects the game's ability to emotionally resonate?

Okay
a.)if the number doesn't matter at all then why would anyone give any kind of fuck that it was changed on either side of this debate
and b.)a character's age can be a pretty important part of their characterization.

EDIT:

Also as much as people might wish it to be, games and real life are two separate things.

No-one should ever have an emotional reaction to any game? Or any film? Any book? Its just a game so no-one should ever have any kind of reaction to it because "its not real?

 

[Elaugaufein]

I will also say this completely selfish thing: as someone who thinks the more modest designs are an improvement, as a pretty large fan of JRPGs who thinks that recent character designs and *ugh* "fanservice" are often really offputting the idea of a fun, classic, apparently very good JRPG that is being designed to appeal more to me and not less for once its pretty attractive. I was always planning on buying BD but this certainly doesn't hurt.

The thing is that its not more recent character designs (go take a look at the original concept art for Rosa or Rydia in FF IV or Shiva from FFIII) , it's that when things aren't sprites the provocative nature of the costumes becomes clearer.

It's hardly new either, take a look through the 2nd Edition D&D players handbook (published circa 1984), and the JRPG genre more or less traces its inception back to D&D (via Wizardry style games), the original Final Fantasy has more monsters lifted directly from D&D than not, so it shouldn't be surprising the art style carried (though you'll notice the Japanese art style is generally softened i.e more robes and fewer chain-mail bikinis though I expect the opinions on that will be mixed since on the one hand less revealing and on the other more stereotypical).

 

[Kintaro]

Why do they have to sexualize children. It's kind of indefensible imo. I also never thought that being against the sexualization of children was a being a prude lol. I am against censorship but I don't think images, even cartoon images of half naked pre-teens is really a censorship issue.

Funny thing. They aren't children. They are 18+ now for western audiences. So, why should any other editing occur? If you continue to persist that they aren't 18 when they have clearly made the effort to make them as such, I can make the argument that the rest of the edits are silly.

If they are 18, there is no need to edit anything else (costumes, innuendo) or remove one completely. If they are 15, then the other changes are understood. Both? Kind of silly. Especially since the game is still (seemingly) rife with innuendo.

 

[Crash Station]

How exactly was this topic to be discussed? There was literally only one way it could go. Those who think it's appropriate and those that don't. Posters need to stop trying to be mods imo.

The discussion has gone way past those who think it's appropriate and those who don't. The thread has essentially turned into the pedophile equivalent of Godwin's Law.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Why do they have to sexualize children. It's kind of indefensible imo. I also never thought that being against the sexualization of children was being a prude lol. I am against censorship but I don't think images, even cartoon images of half naked pre-teens is really a censorship issue.

But nobody in the game is children? They're adolescents aged 15-18. Unless you're just talking about lolicon or something?

 

[Zane]

But nobody in the game is children? They're adolescents aged 15-18. Unless you're just talking about lolicon or something?

Anyone below 18 is a child in the US.

 

[StayDead]

I can't say I've seen any 18 year olds+ look like this before:

Does that mean you've met a chibi art style human/s in real life? Where did you find them?