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[pwack]

Just out of curiosity, what would you call the removal of the lesbian relationship from the Sailor Moon anime? I'm pretty sure that was also done to increase the audience and sales

Never heard of this, and never watched SM, so not informed eniught to know. But sounds like editing to me.

Counter hypo: say some character artist at SE originally drew a character and/or concept art for BD or some other game. with visible nipples, only to have that idea immediately shot down by the artistic director. What would you call that?

 

[zeopower6]

Just out of curiosity, what would you call the removal of the lesbian relationship from the Sailor Moon anime? I'm pretty sure that was also done to increase the audience and sales

Not entirely.

They were made 'cousins'. Also consider that it was on at around 3-4PM on weekdays, so I doubt a homosexual relationship would fly. It wasn't really to increase sales or the audience... they likely just could not keep it the same without making people uncomfortable or ruffling feathers. HOWEVER there are still scenes that are extremely lesbiany. (the hand touching scenes)

It is reminiscent of how they kept the Zoisite/Malachite relationship, but Zoisite was made into a woman instead of a man.

 

[mattiewheels]

I see this more as...localization.

Another bit of censorship I just ran across: all of the characters have been aged up in the EU/US version. JPN/US age.

Agnes: 17/20
Tiz: 16/19
Edea: 15/18
Ringabel: 15/18

 

[Jarmel]

No they serve a point. Age is very different from blood type. A story about a 40 year old and a story about a 20 year old leave different impressions on a reader, same with 18, and 10, or 80.

Blood type is just meaningless.

For the Japanese, blood types are an indicator of a person's personality. Horoscopes too are a thing as well.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Our media. You wanna know how we change society to stop producing these characters in our media, by changing it. Trying new things, letting other types of people do things. While it wont instafix societal problems. Telling the guy
" hey dude that black guy you are designing is a strait up stereotype, change that shit. It doesn't really fit with what we got going " is doing a hell of a lot more than you think. And could possibly get more minorities into entertainment businesses when they feel like they actually get a fair shake. And have their people and heritage represented.

Not to be mean, your response is kind of the generic " head in ground lalalalala " kind of thing that gets nothing done. " we can't change our media, we have directly fix the problem". The problem will start getting fixed when we change our media, you know that thing that is all encompassing that is around us all the time, especially in this day an age .Not doing much for people self esteem when there people are relegated to side kick , side character, or racist caricature stereotype all the time.



Veering off topic doe,


I find your logic flawed at its core.


BTW IIRC the dudes have weird outfits too, I never really thought it was that bad really. I just don't like the logic you used to defend these outfits.

The problem is that this is the exact type of Social Justice I have a problem with. It's the destructive approach (things I don't like should cease to exist) as opposed to the constructive approach (their should be more things that I like). If you want to encourage the production of certain types of things, then go for it. When you decide the only way to get what you like is to force changes on other works, I get deeply uncomfortable.

If I had this view point, I'd wish that Final Fantasy and its inevitable Action RPG future died in a fire, as opposed to supporting the companies that still produce the games I want.

 

[yaesir]

No they serve a point. Age is very different from blood type. A story about a 40 year old and a story about a 20 year old leave different impressions on a reader, same with 18, and 10, or 80.

Blood type is just meaningless.

If the charcter is not characterized as a 40 or 20 year old the age is irrelevant.

If you read say Lord of The Rings and i then tell you at the end of the story they were all 10 year olds would it change anything? Really? If i told you they were 80 year olds would it change?

If you keep thinking about the age, sure it will, but if you dont see it anywhere ingame it will largely be irrelevant.

 

[Principate]

If the charcter is not characterized as a 40 or 20 year old the age is irrelevant.

If you read say Lord of The Rings and i then tell you at the end of the story they were all 10 year olds would it change anything? Really? If i told you they were 80 year olds would it change?

If you keep thinking about the age, sure it will, but if you dont see it anywhere ingame it will largely be irrelevant.

Considering some people fall in love have relationships and all sorts of other stuff it would change a fair bit. Also children going to war is different from grown men and women going to war.

Of course it changes things why wouldn't it.

 

[Karsticles]

Still going eh? Sad thing is, only about 10-20% of this thread ever had any interest in this game to begin with and only half of them were going to buy it.

So, Dragon's Crown all over again!

 

[Village]

The problem is that this is the exact type of Social Justice I have a problem with. It's the destructive approach (things I don't like should cease to exist) as opposed to the constructive approach (their should be more things that I like). If you want to encourage the production of certain types of things, then go for it. When you decide the only way to get what you like is to force changes on other works, I get deeply uncomfortable.
t.

Yes.

Harmful stereotypes for the most part aren't helping anyone. And people removing those from their media overtime will do more good than bad. Then people will be people instead of sterotypical black guy or asian guy.

No one is going to take your sandbox away, however your sandbox is filled with poo and we are removing it so it can be suitable for others to play in it.

No one isn't even saying you can't have stereotypes, however the stereotype /non Stereotype ration is fucked up and needs fixing.


Why does everyone feel the magical cenceorship PC BOOGIE MAN WILL TAKE ALL OUR GAMES AWAY WOOOOOO~

No, there will be more different types of games silly goose.

 

[Mik317]

why is the majority of the people throwing around pedos and creepers are ignoring that the style is being used as a call back to the sprites of old.

Like...that alone should end all of the " THESE ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE KIDZ YO" stuff.

Like c'mon guys.

I don't mind the costume changes, it's whatever. The dialog stuff doesn't seem too bad either (unless they changed them further for the US). its just that seeing a ton of people look at things the wrong way makes me sad.

I mean we literally had a guy basically call Yoshida a child molester. wow.

Its a stylistic choice that has NOTHING to do with make them look like kids...and yet that is ignored.

 

[Tucah]

I don't give a shit if the ages have been changed and I prefer the new "censored" costumes, so it's a win for me I guess.

 

[The Technomancer]

For the Japanese, blood types are an indicator of a person's personality. Horoscopes too are a thing as well.

And for "the West" a characters age often is a significant part of their character. Just because I don't care about blood type doesn't mean I can't care about age

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think you should. That part of the game is obviously intended to be disturbing. It fits the setting and the "corruption" of the world.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

When the party arrives at the female-only city of Florem, which used to be very pious and modest according to Agnes (the brunette one), they noticed that the female-only population has become extremely superficial because of a beauty craze mediated by some external actors trying to make a profit. To get the attention of an old friend who is in hiding, Agnes is forced to take part in a beauty contest and the party decides that she needs to have an especially beautiful and later "sexy" outfit. Agnes gets incredibly uncomfortable in the bikini and Tiz, the moral compass of the party, tells her that she doesn't have to wear it if she doesn't want to. Later, Edea (the blond one) sees it as the only way to lure in the playboy villain the party suspects to be involved in the disappearances of Florem's citizens.

Hum, so how has it been changed for a western release?

 

[Kintaro]

So, Dragon's Crown all over again!

All we need is Kotaku to call the game some sort of insult and this game is a hit title for Nintendo/SE. Let's hope we're that blessed. Otherwise, we will never see Bravely Second here. Ever.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Yes.

Harmful stereotypes for the most part aren't helping anyone. And people removing those from their media overtime will do more good than bad. Then people will be people instead of sterotypical black guy or asian guy.

No one is going to take your sandbox away, however your sandbox is filled with poo and we are removing it so it can be suitable for others to play in it.

So you're not going to take it away except that you are. And that's okay because you approve of it. Duly noted. And then you wonder why people get defensive because you've convinced yourself that you're not actually being aggressive.

 

[Principate]

Hum, so how has it been changed for a western release?

It hasn't really you just don't see the bikini and maybe Edea's comment though I have no idea I missed that part

 

[Kinyou]

Never heard of this, and never watched SM, so not informed eniught to know. But sounds like editing to me.

Counter hypo: say some character artist at SE originally drew a character and/or concept art for BD or some other game. with visible nipples, only to have that idea immediately shot down by the artistic director. What would you call that?

There's a difference between something getting internally shot down and something getting released in one place but not in another. I just think it's a slippery slope. I mean, should Rockstar now also remove all female drivers from GTA 5 because that might not fit Saudi Arabia's culture? Would it not be censorship because they do it to increase sales/avoid controversy?

Not entirely.

They were made 'cousins'. Also consider that it was on at around 3-4PM on weekdays, so I doubt a homosexual relationship would fly. It wasn't really to increase sales or the audience... they likely just could not keep it the same without making people uncomfortable or ruffling feathers. HOWEVER there are still scenes that are extremely lesbiany. (the hand touching scenes)

It is reminiscent of how they kept the Zoisite/Malachite relationship, but Zoisite was made into a woman instead of a man.

They were changed from lovers into cousins. I consider that censorship. And if it was about avoiding a controversy or increasing sales seems negligible

 

[Mozendo]

Wow is everyone making a big fuss out of this? This news is old.

The European version game has been out for quite some time I don't know why people are making a fuss out of the European version of the game now.

Fire Emblem:Awakening and Advance War: Days of Ruin is proof that Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe can localize their games indenpentaly.

Edit: Or is censored stuff found in th demo? I haven't finished it. I remember someone asked about the censorship in NA's and the answer he/she got was "Nintendo of America isn't responsible for Nintendo of Europe's localization of Bravely Default"

 

[zeopower6]

And for "the West" a characters age often is a significant part of their character. Just because I don't care about blood type doesn't mean I can't care about age

But does it really change things if 2-3 years are added to the age? Why do people care so much about those few years?

 

[Karsticles]

It hasn't really you just don't see the bikini and maybe Edea's comment though I have no idea I missed that part

Oh, that is pretty minor. I was expecting a systematic change in tone. Still disappointing, but it doesnt seem like it impacts the experience from how you two describe it.

 

[Jarmel]

And for "the West" a characters age often is a significant part of their character. Just because I don't care about blood type doesn't mean I can't care about age

If they can alter it, then chances are it's not integral to the story.

 

[Principate]

There's a difference between something getting internally shot down and something getting released in one place but not in another. I just think it's a slippery slope. I mean, should Rockstar now also remove all female drivers from GTA 5 because that might not fit Saudi Arabia's culture? Would it not be censorship because they do it to increase sales/avoid controversy?


They were changed from lovers into cousins. I consider that censorship. And if it was about avoiding a controversy or increasing sales seems negligible

If that's how they want to sell there games who cares. These are companies they have no real obligations to pander to your specific needs, Why they do it is because their are several others with those needs and are willing to pay them money.

Some people are looking far too deeply into this.

 

[Venfayth]

Let me tell you two useful pieces of information:

Fantasy characters aren't real.

Censorship is shitty; localization that is anything other than a faithful translation is shitty.

 

[Village]

So you're not going to take it away except that you are. And that's okay because you approve of it. Duly noted. And then you wonder why people get defensive because you've convinced yourself that you're not actually being aggressive.

one ( read my edit )

Two Getting people to make other types of games apparently = all of your games gone. And the newer games shall take hold of the earth.

Ok.


Also If your entire gaming... or any significant part of it really relies on horrible harmful stereotypes. That is an entirely other issue and implication that needs fixing " fixing via sunlight"

No one is taking your toys away. However we will start making other toys, and not just those toys.

 

[yaesir]

Considering some people fall in love have relationships and all sorts of other stuff it would change a fair bit. Also children going to war is different from grown men and women going to war.

Of course it changes things why wouldn't it.

You didnt understand, the work is not changed. No words are changed but for any mentions of age.

All events play the same. Just the number for the age changes.

You know what would happen? You would just not take the number for the age seriously, which is my entire point.

The events of the game have NOT changed at all, only the number for the age.

 

[Parfait]

Then as a blak/arabic I shouldn't get mad at racist cartoons, video games and general fiction that make up horrible characters of my people because , because they aren't real people. ...

Did you get mad at people being racist to elves in dragon age because you're also an elf

Those racist cartoons are horrible and fucking terrible, but they are also trying to represent something real, so yes you are 1000% justified to be mad at them.

Not only is the BD Artstyle not trying to represent anything real, but it's also still a fictional universe.

 

[Principate]

Oh, that is pretty minor. I was expecting a systematic change in tone. Still disappointing, but it doesnt seem like it impacts the experience from how you two describe it.

This game has dual audio, it's be pretty hard to censor it in any significant manner.

 

[KillerTravis]

I like the changes.

 

[Principate]

You didnt understand, the work is not changed. No words are changed but for any mentions of age.

All events play the same. Just the number for the age changes.

You know what would happen? You would just not take the number for the age seriously, which is my entire point.

The events of the game have NOT changed at all, only the number for the age.

Two 10 year olds having sex is different from two 40 year olds having sex.

It's the same with legal teens and illegal teens. Despite the fact they may look the same.

Did you get mad at people being racist to elves in dragon age because you're also an elf

Those racist cartoons are horrible and fucking terrible, but they are also trying to represent something real, so yes you are 1000% justified to be mad at them.

Not only is the BD Artstyle not trying to represent anything real, but it's also still a fictional universe.

TBF that can happen in racist cartoons also. Put it in a fantasy land with the same overall tone and point and hey presto. The difference is intent, but they are just as real as each other.

 

[WickedLaharl]

good ass shit

You make beautiful collages.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Let me tell you two useful pieces of information:

Fantasy characters aren't real.

Censorship is shitty; localization that is anything other than a faithful translation is shitty.

Even if it's an improvement?

 

[zeopower6]

Censorship is shitty; localization that is anything other than a faithful translation is shitty.

This is basically why a lot of people are angry. (not because they don't get 15 year olds in bikinis)

Even if it's an improvement?

When has censorship ever improved upon a work?

 

[royox]

This entire thread. Jesus.

An entire thread complaining about "They censored a sexual inuendo!!!" while the inuendo is still in the game and if you are not a complete retard you will get it.

FFS, the "inuendo" after censored Is a Teen Girl saying to a full adult somethin like "I WANT TO EXPEND THIS NIGHT WITH YOU TO MAKE YOUR BONES HAPPY".

If you don't understand what is happening there...don't buy the game.

 

[Kintaro]

If you don't understand what is happening there...don't buy the game.

Hardly anyone in here was going to anyway. =)

 

[Karsticles]

This game has dual audio, it's be pretty hard to censor it in any significant manner.

Can you do JP voices with Eng subtitles? Would that basically prevent the censoring? Aside from the costume changes, of course.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

This is basically why a lot of people are angry. (not because they don't get 15 year olds in bikinis)



When has censorship ever improved upon a work?

I'm talking about localization. Some things just don't translate well in another language\culture. Maybe a joke that doesn't work or a cultural reference. It's entirely possible to improve upon those in a way a straight translation wouldn't.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Another bit of censorship I just ran across: all of the characters have been aged up in the EU/US version. JPN/US age.

Agnes: 17/20
Tiz: 16/19
Edea: 15/18
Ringabel: 15/18

Ringabel is actually 23 or 24 in the localized version (he's the same age as

Spoiler

Alternis Dim, plus roughly 7 months (the time during which the first cycle takes

. Which is weird because it mean his age is bumped up another couple of years compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Village]

Did you get mad at people being racist to elves in dragon age because you're also an elf.

What is context?

Those racist cartoons are horrible and fucking terrible, but they are also trying to represent something real, so yes you are 1000% justified to be mad at them

Not only is the BD Artstyle not trying to represent anything real, but it's also still a fictional universe.

I agree that DB is fine, however I do not agree that it being fiction makes it fine. Some fiction is messed up due to ignorance, stupidity or whatever. And should not get off the hook because it isn't "real" because it is real. Its media that exists in this world. Not saying all fiction like that has to go there is plenty of media that uses usually harmful for good story telling and narrative. Like I said before, context. However lets not pretend like every... hell most fiction that comes out is anywhere near that clever.

Again I think BD is fine, i think the implication of fictional media not being an issue is dumb.

Let me tell you two useful pieces of information:

Fantasy characters aren't real.

Censorship is shitty; localization that is anything other than a faithful translation is shitty.

Media is doe. And media ( while not this one and fully agree that it should stay how it was ) effects people.

And to the 2nd part, uh no in general . Epically from japan, ... Or capcom.

 

[Lupin the Third]

They were changed from lovers into cousins. I consider that censorship. And if it was about avoiding a controversy or increasing sales seems negligible

Yeah, it's a commercial form of censorship (censorship "proper" is generally a government-initiated thing; see China). Those seasons of the show would not have aired in the US, period, without changes of that nature. Sometimes in entertainment you have to make concessions necessary to make your product acceptable for the region in which it is being released. You can thank the differences in culture from area to area for that.

As an aside, though, the DVD release of those same seasons of Sailor Moon also contained the unedited, subtitled version that left all the lesbian implications intact. Different target markets within a region also have different levels of tolerance.

 

[Principate]

Can you do JP voices with Eng subtitles? Would that basically prevent the censoring? Aside from the costume changes, of course.

I'm not sure it would prevent the censoring. since they could just incorrectly translate the text. Now Idea if they did do it through that either way from what I did in the I story haven't encounter any changes I know about.

There's a LOT of voice acting and text in the game, so I end up skipping a lot of it that isn't actually shown to you (you can press a button and see extra conversations I never do that).

 

[_hekk05]

I'm talking about localization. Some things just don't translate well in another languageculture. Maybe a joke that doesn't work or a cultural reference. It's entirely possible to improve upon those in a way a straight translation wouldn't.

I wish they would add in a TL note, similar to what we see in scantalated manga, when they deviate from the original.

That way, the story still flows well, and purists can still experience a faithful translation, as long as they make the effort to read TL notes.

 

[yaesir]

Two 10 year olds having sex is different from two 40 year olds having sex.

It's the same with legal teens and illegal teens. Despite the fact they may look the same.

Yes it is different, but you are failing to see how the book or game was not rewritten to change anything.

You are taking offense and making a big deal out of something that doesnt exist in the first place, and not only that but it was depicted in a way with a very subjective number for age.

Think: did they first come up with the age for these characters or did they make the story/designs and then after some time they came with their ages?

And not only that, if the characters were 30 years old or if they were 8 years old i highly doubt they would go back and change anything when localizing.

Even if the characters had a story that they had beards, fell in love and had children.

Because it requires way more work. I still cant understand how people make a big deal of this random number that has no value and can so easily be changed to be anything, even negative.

 

[Elaugaufein]

one ( read my edit )

Two Getting people to make other types of games apparently = all of your games gone. And the newer games shall take hold of the earth.

Ok.


Also If your entire gaming... or any significant part of it really relies on horrible harmful stereotypes. That is an entirely other issue and implication that needs fixing " fixing via sunlight"

No one is taking your toys away. However we will start making other toys, and not just those toys.

The thing is that if you're not taking things away I'm not sure why you're arguing with me. I already stated that if you wanted to see the creation of more stuff you like , I'm 100% behind that, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of stuff that you don't like. But you're argument seems to be that you can only get more stuff that you like, if less stuff you don't like is produced. And that actually is damaging other people.

To give an example: I don't like female main characters being focus tested into males or not approved otherwise. But if someone envisions the main character as a male I'm equally against social justice movements pressuring that character into being female. I'm 100% for more games featuring diverse casts , I'm just against the idea that you get to force a creator to change his vision of the game so it now has a diverse cast, if it didn't originally. If you want to start a foundation to fund more games with diverse casts let me know and I'll happily chip in money, since I view it as a worthy cause. If you want to start a foundation to force games in production to change their cast to be more diverse then I don't want to support that.

 

[Village]

When has censorship ever improved upon a work?

There are for more racist, sexist and horrible things that we don't hear about that get axed out of media before hand. Censorship at work, and it needs to work harder.


Please stop with this.. ignorant all censorship is bad crap. It isn't stop falling into the internet hate train hole. If some dudes take something out of the game they felt harmful , sure fine whatever. For every sexy outfit they take out its probably a bunch of worse things taken out of the design processes. NO i repeat NO persons artistic work at company comes out competently raw that shit gets changed censored and a bunch of other things before we get it. So please stop pretending these games were pure in the goddamned first lace.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm not sure it would prevent the censoring. since they could just incorrectly translate the text. Now Idea if they did do it through that either way from what I did in the I story haven't encounter any changes I know about.

There's a LOT of voice acting and text in the game, so I end up skipping a lot of it that isn't actually shown to you (you can press a button and see extra conversations I never do that).

Thanks.

If anyone does know, I would be curious. Any way to circumvent the translation censorship would be desirable.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

What makes you believe these changes are compromising artistic integrity and not the other way around? Maybe the developers believed they needed to appeal to the Japanese otaku crowd through fanservice in order to sell their game and the western release gives them the opportunity to release the game as they intended

I have trouble believing that appealing to western tastes is compromising their vision but appealing to Japanese tastes isn't

This is how I see it. Japanese stuff has been getting so greasy. I think the anime Elfen lied's pedo scenes pushed me over the edge where I'm pretty weary of Japanese entertainment now.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Hum, so how has it been changed for a western release?

It hasn't really you just don't see the bikini and maybe Edea's comment though I have no idea I missed that part

I don't think Agnes ever wears the bikini in any of the scenes and Edea just wears the altered one.

 

[_hekk05]

.

I think the deal is the perceived need by Nintendo/SE to change the age, rather than the change itself.

As you've put it, it doesn't affect the gameplay or its story. So why did the change occur?

 

[afoni]

anyone remember when fire emblem awakening came out and you could mate with a 1000+ year old dragon loli and have kids with her

haha that shit was hilarious

 

[Whompa]

Great now I can feel less embarrassed playing this game.