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[puzl]

Oh my fucking god.

Thanks for the great contribution to this thread.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Not once did I use the word inferior to describe people with anime avatars. I'm just saying that on a subject as heated as this, it's unlikely you're going to get an unbiased, reasoned argument from someone who is obviously a fan of the subject in question.

I've seen plenty of animes, read loads of manga and played more JRPGs than I can count. It doesn't mean I can't find the subject of this thread utterly disgraceful.

And should we expect an unbiased and reasoned argument from someone that repeatedly uses the term "manbaby"?

 

[topplehat]

See this is why this topic is going to go round in circles because some see the characters as toddlers whereas others simply see chibi older teenagers/adults. I guess it comes down to how one would personally caricature a toddler. For me the BD bodies are far too long in proportion to the head to be see as a young child's body. For example compare the bodies of the humans in the old Animal Crossing games with those of New Leaf; while the heads are the same size New Leaf gives them much longer bodies so instantly they look older despite the fact we can safely assume they depict characters of the same age.

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

 

[gngf123]

Not once did I use the word inferior to describe people with anime avatars. I'm just saying that on a subject as heated as this, it's unlikely you're going to get an unbiased, reasoned argument from someone who is obviously a fan of the subject in question.

I've seen plenty of animes, read loads of manga and played more JRPGs than I can count. It doesn't mean I can't find the subject of this thread utterly disgraceful.

Well I personally think you are generalizing anime a little too much. But I have an anime avatar, so I guess my opinion is biased and unreasonable and I'm a fan of scantily clad chibis.

Also, I've posted a few times in here to say that I actually prefer the slightly censored version and can see why they would do it. Your generalization doesn't really work, and only functions as a cheap dismissal.

 

[Shoyz]

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

Which would be a lot more simple to make it an optional outfit choice than to censor it in localization, wouldn't it?

 

[robotrock]

Yo guys, when did the collector's edition of this game sell out on Amazon?

 

[puzl]

What's funny is that you say you can't expect an unbiased argument from, but your post didn't actually do anything other than just poke fun at people who enjoy it, effectively dismissing them as not being worth listening to. That seems a little biased to me. What bothers me is that you seem to try and come off as the neutral and fair party even though you seem to be reliant on defending your own opinion and emotional response as being inherently just or right.

Try reading my posts on the previous few pages. I've made my point abundantly clear many times now. The point about anime avatars that you're so desperately trying to cling to is just an attempt to reflect the actual point of the subject we're meant to be discussing, namely the sexualisation of minors and why this isn't acceptable in most western cultures. That's all I'm interested in, with regards to this subject.

 

[Principate]

Which would be a lot more simple to make it an optional outfit choice than to censor it in localization, wouldn't it?

It is an optional item choice. You can't even get some so them in the main game. It requires a Farmville like minigame to unlock some.

 

[March of the Crabs]

Which would be a lot more simple to make it an optional outfit choice than to censor it in localization, wouldn't it?

The only way a game should have an option for 15 year olds to be in revealing clothing is if the police are watching.

 

[Elaugaufein]

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

The game as it is in the west says they are 18-21 actually. They bumped the entire main party's ages up by 3 years, so the youngest was 18 (probably because she's the one who wears the Bravo Bikini in the story line. And yes that section of the storyline is kind of creepy , but it's supposed to be, the villain in that section is probably the most irredeemable character in the game outside of the 2 final bosses).

 

[Glass Rebel]

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

They're 20 and 18 in the Western version.

I mean, if we're going by what the game says.

 

[watershed]

I like the censored costumes better.

 

[Shoyz]

It is an optional item choice. You can't even get some so them in the main game. It requires a Farmville like minigame to unlock some.

Then doesn't that completely invalidate all of the "I'd rather not see that" complaints? I figured you were forced to use them based on class choices. The only exception being if they want to use a less-revealing version of the outfit but I don't think anybody offended by the originals would want to use the short skirt tubetop still-skimpy replacement either.

 

[Messofanego]

A game developer, Konjak (The Iconoclasts, Noitu Love 2), chimes in. Octodad dev Phil's response gave me a good chuckle.

https://twitter.com/konjak/status/419459019443421184

 

[Parfait]

Oh man watching people try to place ages on art of characters that literally don't exist is quickly becoming an amusing pastime. It's both incredibly sad and outright hilarious watching people get mad at 'proportions' and say things like 'it looks like a child' because whenever you look at a real child you see this am i right

 

[puzl]

And should we expect an unbiased and reasoned argument from someone that repeatedly uses the term "manbaby"?

You can expect whatever you like. I've made my points. Cherry pick my words all your like, I've given detailed reasons why I think it's unacceptable and tried to be as concise as I can with my opinion, giving links to precedents set before, which forced Nintendos hand in the first place.

Ultimately, the whole debate is quite pointless anyway. If you want to play the game in the west, you're going to have to accept the changes they made made. Both my arguments and anyone elses ultimately don't matter, since government law, regulation, and self-censorship made that choice for you.

 

[Principate]

Then doesn't that completely invalidate all of the "I'd rather not see that" complaints? I figured you were forced to use them based on class choices. The only exception being if they want to use a less-revealing version of the outfit but I don't think anybody offended by the originals will want to use the short skirt tubetop still-skimpy replacement.

Some of them, some aren't. Not all, Some classes you unlock by side quests which where you'll see some.

 

[rpmurphy]

I hope you also realise that you're completely ignoring all the valid points I made in previous posts. Again, cherry picking at it's finest

Your comments also contain garbage like calling others "loli lovers" and generalizing that those who have certain avatars cannot have an honest discussion of the issue. If anyone is willing to talk with someone who holds that sort of hostility, I would think it is pretty gracious of them.

 

[topplehat]

They're 20 and 18 in the Western version.

I mean, if we're going by what the game says.

Yes, that is literally part of the "censorship" that people are upset about though.

 

[watershed]

I don't need a "big corporation" telling me what I can handle.

Those tweets kill me.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The only way a game should have an option for 15 year olds to be in revealing clothing is if the police are watching.

I presume you're in favour of banning most television shows that includes teenage characters then. Because the chance that such shows will include 0 provocative outfits or swimwear in there runs is roughly 0. And you might want to start lobbying for some kind of age segregation on beaches. Separate areas for people based on whether or not they are over 18 (though that may cause some issues for parents).

Spoiler

Yes, I think the above statements are ridiculous but I think the statement I'm quoting is also ridiculous.

 

[Ironjam]

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

They are 18 in EU and NA and all those costumes were censored or removed.

Yes, that is literally part of the "censorship" that people are upset about though.

I think people are upset about dialogue changes not age/clothes changes.

Which would be a lot more simple to make it an optional outfit choice than to censor it in localization, wouldn't it?

As others have said they are all optional and you get them near the end of the game as well.

 

[LouisaFerre]

Try reading my posts on the previous few pages. I've made my point abundantly clear many times now. The point about anime avatars that you're so desperately trying to cling to is just an attempt to reflect the actual point of the subject we're meant to be discussing, namely the sexualisation of minors and why this isn't acceptable in most western cultures. That's all I'm interested in, with regards to this subject.

I feel like I already made my point pretty clear in my first post in this thread as well. I said that I didn't see why it was such a big deal because they aren't real, and so any issue I take with it is just my opinion, and there's no reason in my eyes to get so worked up emotionally over what other people like. After that I didn't see much else to really say so I just responded to your very hostile attitude.

 

[Glass Rebel]

The game as it is in the west says they are 18-21 actually. They bumped the entire main party's ages up by 3 years, so the youngest was 18 (probably because she's the one who wears the Bravo Bikini in the story line. And yes that section of the storyline is kind of creepy , but it's supposed to be, the villain in that section is probably the most irredeemable character in the game outside of the 2 final bosses).

Yup. The entire Florem arc can be pretty depressing and dark at times. The beauty craze, the bikini and Agnes having to be "sexy", DeRosa and the allusions to rape etc.

Yes, that is literally part of the "censorship" that people are upset about though.

That's surprising because the age of the characters has no bearing on the game at all.

 

[Principate]

I don't need a "big corporation" telling me what I can handle.

Those tweets kill me.

Eh it's not about that. It's almost never about that. Companies do this for one reason and one reason only. To save their behind from bad publicity. It occurs in all forms of media and most of it won't even leak to the public.

 

[puzl]

Your comments also contain garbage like calling others "loli lovers" and generalizing that those who have certain avatars cannot have an honest discussion of the issue. If anyone is willing to talk with someone who holds that sort of hostility, I would think it is pretty gracious of them.

Fine, ignore the whole loli and anime avatar thing and address my actual points. I'm more than willing to have an honest discussion on the subject, if you are.

 

[Lime]

The fact that this particular alteration is used as a basis and means to refer to freedom of speech and cry out "censorship!" when it has absolutely nothing to do with such a discussion is frankly ridiculous and downright embarrassing. I think it's commonly conceptualized as 'clutching at straws'.

Well, at least it provides some mildly entertaining, but mostly unbelievable reading.

 

[The Technomancer]

Oh man watching people try to place ages on art of characters that literally don't exist is quickly becoming an amusing pastime. It's both incredibly sad and outright hilarious watching people get mad at 'proportions' and say things like 'it looks like a child' because whenever you look at a real child you see this am i right

"They don't really exist guys" is just as much a criticism of the developers bothering to put effort into their designs as it is a criticism of people who care about said designs.

 

[Durante]

Censorship is always wrong.

The fact that this particular alteration is used as a basis and means to refer to freedom of speech and cry out "censorship!" when it has absolutely nothing to do with such a discussion is frankly ridiculous and downright embarrassing.

I think it's usually conceptualized as 'clutching at straws'.

How is this not a textbook example of (self-)censorship?

 

[topplehat]

Yup. The entire Florem arc can be pretty depressing and dark at times. The beauty craze, the bikini and Agnes having to be "sexy", DeRosa and the allusions to rape etc.



That's surprising because the age of the characters has no bearing on the game at all.

I think you are diverting here, I'm not talking about the story, I'm talking about what appears to be skimpy looking outfits on child-like characters. The game said they were 15 (even though they look much younger...)

If the age has no bearing on the game at all then nobody should care that this is part of the "censorship".

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I don't need a "big corporation" telling me what I can handle.

Those tweets kill me.

I DON'T NEED A BIG CORPORATION TELLING ME I CAN'T HANDLE MY SCANTILY CLAD 15 YEAR OLDS DRAWN TO LOOK LIKE SCANTILY CLAD 10 YEAR OLDS.

 

[SolidSnakex]

You can expect whatever you like. I've made my points. Cherry pick my words all your like, I've given detailed reasons why I think it's unacceptable and tried to be as concise as I can with my opinion, giving links to precedents set before, which forced Nintendos hand in the first place.

Stop writing off points made about posts you actually made as cherry picking. If you aren't proud of the fact that you repeatedly throw around "manbaby" and "loli" accusations then stop doing it. On one hand you talk about how you want to have an unbiased and reasoned discussion while suggesting that those with anime avatars are incapable of doing so because of a bias, and on the other hand you're acting like you're constantly making ridiculous accusations toward people.

 

[watershed]

Eh it's not about that. It's almost never about that. Companies do this for one reason and one reason only. To save their behind from bad publicity. It occurs in all forms of media and most of it won't even leak to the public.

To clarify that line comes from the tweets. When I said "those tweets kill me" that means I find them hilarious. I don't care about Nintendo changing the characters' ages or censoring the outfits. In fact, they look better censored.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Censorship is always wrong.

Except for when it's marginalizing creepers.

 

[BGBW]

You can "see" it however you want, but the game says they are 15 years old. I, and others, do not want to see 15 year olds in skimpy outfits.

I am amazed how big of a deal this is though.

I was only addressing the issue that apparently chibi art makes everyone look like five year olds and why I don't see it. Also [post=95768746]according to someone who has played the game[/post] the only difference between models to depict age is size so even if they were 18+ in the Japanese version people would probably still have beef with the models.

The big deal comes from the fact that those who are bothered by the changes (and I should point out my beef was actually with the notion humour was taken out of the game as stated in the OP article which later turned out to be false) are accused of being sickos. Of course people are going to make a big deal when they are accused of something especially when their issue may not even be related to the costumes.

 

[puzl]

I feel like I already made my point pretty clear in my first post in this thread as well. I said that I didn't see why it was such a big deal because they aren't real, and so any issue I take with it is just my opinion, and there's no reason in my eyes to get so worked up emotionally over what other people like. After that I didn't see much else to really say so I just responded to your very hostile attitude.

And like I said, just because the minor characters depicted are "not real" doesn't make them acceptable in many western laws, including Sweden. Any kind of creative medium, real or otherwise, that depicts sexualised images of minors will be banned from sale, which is why Nintendo stepped in. Your opinion of whether you find it acceptable or not is irrelevant. The law is there for a reason.

If you have a problem with the law, then that becomes something else entirely, and you may need to ask yourself the difficult question of why you're defending your position on it.

 

[Shoyz]

To clarify that line comes from the tweets. When I said "those tweets kill me" that means I find them hilarious. I don't care about Nintendo changing the characters' ages or censoring the outfits. In fact, they look better censored.

I've seen this opinion a number of times now, fair enough, but didn't they also tone down the dialog in the game as well? Even if you're someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic costume changes, how can you be okay with them censoring the story?

 

[puzl]

Stop writing off points made about posts you actually made as cherry picking. If you aren't proud of the fact that you repeatedly throw around "manbaby" and "loli" accusations then stop doing it. On one hand you talk about how you want to have an unbiased and reasoned discussion while suggesting that those with anime avatars are incapable of doing so because of a bias, and on the other hand you're acting like you're constantly making ridiculous accusations toward people.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=95826460&postcount=1727

 

[Principate]

Censorship is always wrong.

How is this not a textbook example of (self-)censorship?

It's no different from sexualising a character to make them more appealing to an audience. Companies aren't doing this to protect or project their view points onto the public (which is generally the point of censorship), they do this to make a more saleable item that won't bring them bad PR.

To simply call it censorship with all it's negative connotations is a tad disingenuous. This is a product they want to sell. It order to make it sell better or at least not bring them negative PR they alter it. It happens all the time on multiple levels with marketing and product design in general.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Fine, ignore the whole loli and anime avatar thing and address my actual points. I'm more than willing to have an honest discussion on the subject, if you are.

You made the loli and anime avatar thing one of your points. That's what implying that those with them are unworthy of discussion because clearly they are intellectually impeded because of their use of them does. And you certainly got people agreeing with you and it will absolutely effect their perspective. That means that people who want to address that point and negate that change to their perspective are entirely entitled to do so. You don't get to imply that anyone who disagrees with you is a disgusting creep and then say to ignore it, when anyone else calls you out on it being incredibly poor form in a reasoned debate.

 

[Durante]

Except for when it's marginalizing creepers.

Without getting into the argument of what "creepers" are, how they are defined, or how that relates to this instance, yes, it's absolutely also wrong then.

 

[watershed]

I've seen this opinion a number of times now, fair enough, but didn't they also tone down the dialog in the game as well? Even if you're someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic costume changes, how can you be okay with them censoring the story?

I don't know what they toned down. But if it was removing sexual innuendos or something like that then I don't mind.

 

[The Technomancer]

I've seen this opinion a number of times now, fair enough, but didn't they also tone down the dialog in the game as well? Even if you're someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic costume changes, how can you be okay with them censoring the story?

On a personal level? I find "anime-level" innuendo to be insufferable most of the time. I'll probably enjoy the main story more with it toned down.

On a broad level? Same basic justification as the art style change: different market, different presentation

 

[trixx]

The bikini is a story-related costume and isn't actually supposed to be something worn in battle. It makes sense in the context of the game. I can elaborate if you want (to get spoiled).

If it's relevant to the story i can't really say i'm for the censorship then. At the same time it doesn't really bother me, but i could see why some would't want the censorship.

 

[LouisaFerre]

And like I said, just because the minor characters depicted are "not real" doesn't make them acceptable in many western laws, including Sweden. Any kind of creative medium, real or otherwise, that depicts sexualised images of minors will be banned from sale, which is why Nintendo stepped in. Your opinion of whether you find it acceptable or not is irrelevant. The law is there for a reason.

If you have a problem with the law, then that becomes something else entirely, and you may need to ask yourself the difficult question of why you're defending your position on it.

I know the law is there and why Nintendo did it in the first place. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have done it from the perspective of what might be best for their business. My argument was only meant to tackle the people who seem to be disgusted and outraged by the original character designs. I wasn't arguing with the decision to censor so much as the mentality and response of some consumers.

Edit: Also, I'd really like to know what you mean by the bolded text.

 

[BGBW]

I've seen this opinion a number of times now, fair enough, but didn't they also tone down the dialog in the game as well? Even if you're someone who doesn't care about the cosmetic costume changes, how can you be okay with them censoring the story?

Apparently that point was overblown. Sexual innuendo is apparently still rife in the game and likely the only instances where it was removed was simply due to Japanese wordplay getting lost in translation.

 

[zoukka]

From what I've seen of this game, it's nothing different than let's say FFIX. There's barely any romantic action, the characters are total prudes beyond the token pick up artist character and dirty 100 year old sage. The models are similarly stylized as they were in FFIX too...

Outrage over nothing on both sides.

 

[blu]

Yup. The entire Florem arc can be pretty depressing and dark at times. The beauty craze, the bikini and Agnes having to be "sexy", DeRosa and the allusions to rape etc.

Cosigned. After all those mass-murder and war stories that followed, Florem remains that chapter which turned the game's story into 'not your typical jrpg' for me.

 

[Lime]

How is this not a textbook example of (self-)censorship?

Usually topics or discussions on censorship revolves around oppression of especially commentary on or criticisms of those in power in regards to social, legal and political matters. Analysis and research into the field of "censorship" commonly revolves around different power positions within a specific society.

This case, however, is more equivalent to not showing/pulling out your pussy/dick at the Thanksgiving dinner table with the family in front of you. It's more a matter of common sensibility and social/cultural awareness than it is about a discussion of "censorship". Thus, it is simply embarrassing to contextualize this particular straightforward case as having anything remotely to do with the actual topic of censorship.

 

[puzl]

Stop writing off points made about posts you actually made as cherry picking. If you aren't proud of the fact that you repeatedly throw around "manbaby" and "loli" accusations then stop doing it. On one hand you talk about how you want to have an unbiased and reasoned discussion while suggesting that those with anime avatars are incapable of doing so because of a bias, and on the other hand you're acting like you're constantly making ridiculous accusations toward people.

You made the loli and anime avatar thing one of your points. That's what implying that those with them are unworthy of discussion because clearly they are intellectually impeded because of their use of them does. And you certainly got people agreeing with you and it will absolutely effect their perspective. That means that people who want to address that point and negate that change to their perspective are entirely entitled to do so. You don't get to imply that anyone who disagrees with you is a disgusting creep and then say to ignore it, when anyone else calls you out on it being incredibly poor form in a reasoned debate.

I didn't make the anime thing as the crux of my entirely argument, merely I commented upon someone elses observation of it. That's a key difference, whether you want to admit it or not.

Additionally, the definition of a loli(ta) (at least from my very limited research into the matter) is a sexual fascination with someone under the age of consent. I'm pretty sure that includes 15 year olds, at least in my country, especially when they're dressed in a thong/belt strap and use sexual innuendo. So my point still stands. Nintendo obviously agrees, or they wouldn't make the changes.