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[HP_Wuvcraft]

Major news organizations literally copy other articles pretty often.

It blew my mind when I found this out.

 

[Green Yoshi]

“The war, therefore if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that the hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. (...) The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word "war," therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. (...)”

1984, George Orwell.

 

[Crema]

They showed they have a functional nuclear program in 2006. What are you talking about?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests_of_North_Korea

I'd consider the function of a nuclear weapon program to be able to have an arsenal of sufficient quantity and power to be able to threaten mutually assured destruction of any aggressor.

I haven't seen any expert claim North Korea are anywhere near that yet.

 

[Biske]

I'd consider the function of a nuclear weapon program to be able to have an arsenal of sufficient quantity and power to be able to threaten mutually assured destruction of any aggressor.

I haven't seen any expert claim North Korea are anywhere near that yet.

I'm not sure it matters really. Having the ability to wipe out one city, is enough to get you to the "fuck you" table of world leadership where they cant really do anything to you without having the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions on their hands.

At this point unless we really want to have shit go down, North Korea has enough chips to sit at the table, and that will have to become an accepted reality.

 

[slit]

I'm not sure it matters really. Having the ability to wipe out one city, is enough to get you to the "fuck you" table of world leadership where they cant really do anything to you without having the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions on their hands.

At this point unless we really want to have shit go down, North Korea has enough chips to sit at the table, and that will have to become an accepted reality.

They have the chips to not be attacked. Little else. They have no economic clout, they have no allies except a halfhearted China who will not back them if they start shit. What do they really have now that they did not without nuclear weapons? The U.S. and its allies did not attack before they had nuclear weapons and they won't now unless NK makes the first move.

 

[Coriolanus]

They have the chips to not be attacked. Little else. They have no economic clout, they have no allies except a halfhearted China who will not back them if they start shit. What do they really have now that they did not without nuclear weapons? The U.S. and its allies did not attack before they had nuclear weapons and they won't now unless NK makes the first move.

The certainty that the US won't try to pull any shit, no matter what kinda idiot they end up electing.

With older presidents, the threat to Seoul was considered enough. Ever since W., NK considered that that might not suffice one day.

You might consider this a bad trade. The Kims look at the corpses of Saddam and Gaddafi and think otherwise.

 

[SRG01]

Seoul isnt defenceless. Unlesd they nuke it Seoul world withstand those shitty 50s era atrillery. As for a standing army? North korea would not last long against South Korea let alone the US.

... what? Last time I checked, 50s era artillery was just as lethal back then as it was now. They didn't magically become less lethal in the 21st century.

 

[Pestilence11]

... what? Last time I checked, 50s era artillery was just as lethal back then as it was now. They didn't magically become less lethal in the 21st century.

Pfft. Soft targets are hardier nowadays.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Pagusas]

... what? Last time I checked, 50s era artillery was just as lethal back then as it was now. They didn't magically become less lethal in the 21st century.

Seriously people, you think just because something's 70 years old it still isnt powerful as all hell?

 

[Graphics Horse]

One of the perils of discussing these things on video game forums.

 

[Tagyhag]

Seriously people, you think just because something's 70 years old it still isnt powerful as all hell?

Reminder that the AK-47 came out in 1949.

Should never underestimate the killing power of older tools if used on civilian locations.

 

[AlimNassor]

... what? Last time I checked, 50s era artillery was just as lethal back then as it was now. They didn't magically become less lethal in the 21st century.

Nkorea does not maintain nor upgrade them and it would take days if not weeks of non stop bombardments and thats if they ignore military and strategic targets. Do you think we would let them keep firing non stop? Do you think those old guns are still accurate? I dont want to find out and i sure as hell dont want a war.

 

[Atilac]

Nkorea does not maintain nor upgrade them and it would take days if not weeks of non stop bombardments and thats if they ignore military and strategic targets. Do you think we would let them keep firing non stop? Do you think those old guns are still accurate? I dont want to find out and i sure as hell dont want a war.

It doesn't take a day to level seoul with 10k artillery pieces.

 

[reckless]

It doesn't take a day to level seoul with 10k artillery pieces.

10k artillery pieces do not have the range to shoot at Seoul, a vast majority don't. Stuff also needs maintenance which North Korea lack, there was about a 25% dud rate of North Korean artillery when they attacked Yeonpyeongdo. They also don't have the logistics to supply thousands of artillery pieces for a sustained bombardment. All the while the U.S/SK would be engaging in count battery fire, destroying those artillery pieces.

Seoul would get damaged, but not leveled (if we are just talking about conventional artillery here).

 

[Downhome]

I can't believe that anyone is disputing the damage that NK could do to SK using their older weaponry.

 

[AlimNassor]

It doesn't take a day to level seoul with 10k artillery pieces.

Yes it does. Seoul is huge. Those artillery pieces are old and rundown and not accurate. In the event of a war it'd take time to arm and fire and how are they gunna sustain this while
Under siege? They cant just fire nonstop or instantly. Besides it'd be insane to not target US and RoK forces. Their army would fold in an instant.

Im not saying Seoul wouldnt get harmed. Im saying it would take time to destroy a city.

 

[Unknown One]

This is definitely a concern. Anybody who thinks this is nothing is a damn fool.

 

[elrechazado]

I'd consider the function of a nuclear weapon program to be able to have an arsenal of sufficient quantity and power to be able to threaten mutually assured destruction of any aggressor.

I haven't seen any expert claim North Korea are anywhere near that yet.

That's fine, but it's absolutely not the definition anyone else is using or has used in the nuclear age. "X country has the bomb" has been the saying for decades now.

 

[Nappuccino]

It blew my mind when I found this out.

Apparently getting a lesser known paper to publish propaganda is fairly common for exactly this reason. Always good to know the first source, if you can.

 

[AlimNassor]

I can't believe that anyone is disputing the damage that NK could do to SK using their older weaponry.

Why? Should i just ignore it and fear them? Im stating what i believe from what ive looked into. Im not saying lets go invade. Id rather not see another endless war. The US will destabilize that region for generations. That is what I fear.

 

[Geist-]

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Unlesd they nuke it Seoul world withstand those shitty 50s era atrillery.

The age actually actually makes it worse.
You can easily track missiles, rockets and the like. standard artillery is a different game.

Is like the main defense for that and its basically close range only spraying bullets at the artillery hoping it connects.

 

[Geist-]

The age actually actually makes it worse.
You can easily track missiles, rockets and the like. standard artillery is a different game.
https://media.giphy.com/media/qQycZTgkbcPIY/giphy.gif[IMG]
Is like the main defense for that and its basically close range only spraying bullets at the artillery hoping it connects.[/QUOTE]

That reminds me, how are defense lasers coming along? I seem to recall them being able to shoot down artillery shells in tests a while back.

 

[Pagusas]

The age actually actually makes it worse.
You can easily track missiles, rockets and the like. standard artillery is a different game.

Is like the main defense for that and its basically close range only spraying bullets at the artillery hoping it connects.

I was always curious, what happens to all those bullets. Things that go up have to come back down, and if your firing wildly at incoming projectiles, that means all those stay 100,000+ bullets will be coming down inside the city.....

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I was always curious, what happens to all those bullets. Things that go up have to come back down, and if your firing wildly at incoming projectiles, that means all those stay 100,000+ bullets will be coming down inside the city.....

I don't know about all of them but I know some use explosive/incendiary rounds which would be less of an issue I assume.

That reminds me, how are defense lasers coming along? I seem to recall them being able to shoot down artillery shells in tests a while back.

Last I heard they had a working prototype that was installed on a ship for testing purposes.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyUh_xSjvXQ

 

[Theodran]

It looks like they are moving it to the west coast, probably to launch it. They allegedly launched their last missile from the Pyongyang Sunan International Airport.

Source

 

[Gragen]

I was always curious, what happens to all those bullets. Things that go up have to come back down, and if your firing wildly at incoming projectiles, that means all those stay 100,000+ bullets will be coming down inside the city.....

That thing is Close in Weapon System and in no situation can it fire 100k bullets. It fires short bursts at 4500 rounds per minute or so and it's an at sea defense weapon. It literally only fires in very short bursts (like a second or 2) due to the heat it causes on the barrels. Chances of a ship using that weapon system any where near land is slim.

 

[Geist-]

I don't know about all of them but I know some use explosive/incendiary rounds which would be less of an issue I assume.



Last I heard they had a working prototype that was installed on a ship for testing purposes.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyUh_xSjvXQ

Too bad the video doesn't tell us how good it is at missile/artillery defense.

Apparently Israel is working on a laser air defense system called the "Iron Beam" (not terribly creative). Supposedly it can shoot down hostile targets up to 7 kilometers away and has been tested on mortars, artillery shells, and UAVs.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Too bad the video doesn't tell us how good it is at missile/artillery defense.

End of the video said they are currently in development of Gen2 which is for missiles, etc specifically.

That thing is Close in Weapon System and in no situation can it fire 100k bullets. It fires short bursts at 4500 rounds per minute or so and it's an at sea defense weapon. It literally only fires in very short bursts (like a second or 2) due to the heat it causes on the barrels. Chances of a ship using that weapon system any where near land is slim.

That gif is a Navy version but they have those land based as well now.

Apparently the sea versions use armor piercing rounds while the land versions are the ones using explosive rounds(explode on impact or when the tracer burns out).

 

[Geist-]

End of the video said they are currently in development of Gen2 which is for missiles, etc specifically.

Lol, I literally stopped just seconds before that part.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Lol, I literally stopped just seconds before that part.

Did the same as well but went back when I wondered if i missed a mention of missiles,etc.

 

[iamaustrian]

Nkorea does not maintain nor upgrade them and it would take days if not weeks of non stop bombardments and thats if they ignore military and strategic targets. Do you think we would let them keep firing non stop? Do you think those old guns are still accurate? I dont want to find out and i sure as hell dont want a war.

guns?
NK has a SHIT TON of fully mobile Katyusha like launchers in all sorts of different variants.
Those were hell in the 1940s and are still now.
German soldiers shat their pants once they heard the Katyushas firing (nickname "Stalin's Orgel"(church organ)) because they sound terrifying.

How would you protect Seoul against something like this?
No "rocket shield" can destroy hundrets of rockets at once.

 

[Phased]

guns?
NK has a SHIT TON of fully mobile Katyusha like launchers in all sorts of different variants.
Those were hell in the 1940s and are still now.
German soldiers shat their pants once they heard the Katyushas firing (nickname "Stalin's Orgel"(church organ)) because they sound terrifying.

How would you protect Seoul against something like this?
No "rocket shield" can destroy hundrets of rockets at once.

While that does look bad, it's not as bad as it seems and is largely just a propaganda tool. I strongly recommend reading https://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/ which is a report given at the East Asia Nuclear Security workshop held on November 11, 2011 in Tokyo, Japan.

The TL;DR is that while there would absolutely be loss of life in the thousands, it likely wouldn't be anywhere near as catastrophic as NK propaganda would have you (and most people) believe.

If the North Korean Peoples Army (KPA) were to start a doctrinal, conventional artillery barrage focused on South Korean forces, we could expect to see around three thousand casualties in the first few minutes, but the casualty rate would quickly drop as the surprise wears off and counter-battery fires slow down the North Korean rates of fire. If the KPA were to engage Seoul in a primarily counter-value fashion by firing into Seoul instead of primarily aiming at military targets, there would likely be around thirty-thousand casualties in a short amount of time. Statistically speaking, almost eight-hundred of those casualties would be foreigners given Seoul's international demographic. Chinese make up almost seventy percent of foreigners in Seoul and its northern environs which means KPA might also kill six-hundred Chinese diplomats, multi-national corporation leaders, and ranking cadre children who are students in Seoul. Horrible, but nothing approaching ”millions". Three primary factors and three secondary factors account for the huge discrepancy between rhetoric and reality:

Keep in mind the primary source for turning Seoul into a "sea of fire" is NK itself, which is pure propaganda. While the death toll would be in the thousands (or tens of thousands if they target civilian centers god forbid) Seoul would survive, and the loss of foreign life (specifically Chinese) would seal their fate.

It further goes on to specifically list the reasons why Seoul would survive:

Three Primary Factors

Range – Only about 1/3 of Seoul is presently in range from artillery along a DMZ trace. The northern reaches of Seoul within artillery range have much lower population densities than Seoul proper;

Numbers – Even though KPA has a tremendous number of artillery pieces, only a certain number are emplaced to range Seoul. KPA can't emplace every weapon near Seoul or the rest of North Korea's expansive border would be unguarded and even more vulnerable. Moreover, an artillery tube immediately reveals its location as soon as it fires. Therefore only about two-thirds of artillery will open fire at a time. The rest are trying to remain hidden;

Protection – Artillery shelters for twenty million people exist in the greater Seoul metropolitan area. After the initial surprise has worn off, there simply won't be large numbers of exposed people. Even during the initial attack the vast majority of people will either be at work, at home, or in transit. Few people will be standing in the middle of an open field with no protection whatsoever available anywhere nearby.

These are the 3 primary reasons, although it does go on into secondary factors as well. It's a great read.

 

[duckroll]

The TL;DR is that while there would absolutely be loss of life in the thousands, it likely wouldn't be anywhere near as catastrophic as NK propaganda would have you (and most people) believe.

Keep in mind the primary source for turning Seoul into a "sea of fire" is NK itself, which is pure propaganda. While the death toll would be in the thousands (or tens of thousands if they target civilian centers god forbid) Seoul would survive, and the loss of foreign life (specifically Chinese) would seal their fate.

It further goes on to specifically list the reasons why Seoul would survive:

Yeah, that totally doesn't sound bad at all. Just thousands of lives. No big deal. Right? Nothing anyone needs to be too worried about.

................

 

[Phased]

Yeah, that totally doesn't sound bad at all. Just thousands of lives. No big deal. Right? Nothing anyone needs to be too worried about.

................

Nowhere did I say it didn't sound bad. All I said is it isn't "sea of fire" bad and hyperbole like wiping Seoul off the face of the map only furthers NK propaganda

 

[duckroll]

Nowhere did I say it didn't sound bad. All I said is it isn't "sea of fire" bad and hyperbole like wiping Seoul off the face of the map only furthers NK propaganda

Seoul would certainly "survive" even if there is a sea of fire or whatever garbage propaganda they want to use. Hiroshima survived. I just don't feel that it's relevant to people in Seoul how accurate the propaganda is. Getting a missile barrage attack in a densely populated city is a nightmare.

 

[Ihyll]

guns?
NK has a SHIT TON of fully mobile Katyusha like launchers in all sorts of different variants.
Those were hell in the 1940s and are still now.
German soldiers shat their pants once they heard the Katyushas firing (nickname "Stalin's Orgel"(church organ)) because they sound terrifying.

How would you protect Seoul against something like this?
No "rocket shield" can destroy hundrets of rockets at once.

Preemptive strike.

Would take months of intelligence and recon flights to identify the positions of those launchers.

 

[8-Bit Sunset]

Putin weighing in and calling sanctions exhausted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41158281?ocid=socialflow_twitter

Russian President Vladimir Putin has said pursuing further sanctions against North Korea is "useless", saying "they'd rather eat grass than give up their nuclear programme".

The US said on Monday it would table a new UN resolution on tougher sanctions in the wake of the latest test of a nuclear bomb by the North on Sunday.

Mr Putin also said that the ramping up of "military hysteria" could lead to global catastrophe.

He said diplomacy was the only answer.

 

[GRaider81]

Putin weighing in and calling sanctions exhausted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41158281?ocid=socialflow_twitter

Am i crazy to feel that Putin only one talking sense?

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Seoul isnt defenceless. Unlesd they nuke it Seoul world withstand those shitty 50s era atrillery. As for a standing army? North korea would not last long against South Korea let alone the US.

If North Korea rolled up and unpacked a trebuchet age of empire style, it'll still do some damage.

Let alone an artillery.

 

[Lonely1]

Seriously people, you think just because something's 70 years old it still isnt powerful as all hell?

The advancement in semiconductors has warped the view of advancements in tech for other fields. "Lol, that shitty as 50 years old rocket technology!"

 

[Meadows]

Putin weighing in and calling sanctions exhausted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41158281?ocid=socialflow_twitter

He says this every time, so does China.

The Security Council is discussing sanctions. Russia/China don't want any, France/US/UK want almost full sanctions.

The final result will be in the middle, probably a ban on the use of foreign labourers in other countries and perhaps a restriction on certain types of oil imports to NK.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia uses this as a bargaining chip to get their own sanctions reduced.

As the famous saying goes, Russians don't even take a dump without having a plan. They always have a plan or a scheme.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Am i crazy to feel that Putin only one talking sense?

Putin is a master at seeming to talk sense while pursuing his own agenda of creating an even more hostile and confusing environment. He is perfectly fine with North Korea being a trouble for the US and allies and would rather keep it that way.

 

[brokenbeans]

Am i crazy to feel that Putin only one talking sense?

Meanwhile in the US...

 

[MistakenMobius]

guns?
NK has a SHIT TON of fully mobile Katyusha like launchers in all sorts of different variants.
Those were hell in the 1940s and are still now.
German soldiers shat their pants once they heard the Katyushas firing (nickname "Stalin's Orgel"(church organ)) because they sound terrifying.

How would you protect Seoul against something like this?
No "rocket shield" can destroy hundrets of rockets at once.

Combat gaz,
Pretty sure given the equipment against gas of the average DPRK is probably not up to the level of stuff like VX and other.

 

[norinrad]

Putin is a master at seeming to talk sense while pursuing his own agenda of creating an even more hostile and confusing environment. He is perfectly fine with North Korea being a trouble for the US and allies and would rather keep it that way.

Same goes for China and though only the UK/US seem to care here because they are often up to no good.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Same goes for China and though only the UK/US seem to care here because they are often up to no good.

Don't really know what "up to no good" is supposed to mean for the UK/US in the context of North Korea. It is not surprising they are more concerned then Russia and China considering who the threats are being made against by North Korea all the time.

 

[slit]

The certainty that the US won't try to pull any shit, no matter what kinda idiot they end up electing.

With older presidents, the threat to Seoul was considered enough. Ever since W., NK considered that that might not suffice one day.

You might consider this a bad trade. The Kims look at the corpses of Saddam and Gaddafi and think otherwise.

The U.S. was never going to invade without provocation with or without Trump or Bush. It's not a bad trade, it's not ANYTHING. It changes nothing about their situation. They won't be able to improve their standing in the world if they have nuclear weapons regardless of what they may think.

 

[WaterAstro]

Putin said sanctions are not effective against North Korea... well... obviously, Russia loves dealing with North Korea.

Most of North Korea's money comes from sending slaves to Russia to work.

 

[Greigor The Fellhand]

I don't know about all of them but I know some use explosive/incendiary rounds which would be less of an issue I assume.



Last I heard they had a working prototype that was installed on a ship for testing purposes.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyUh_xSjvXQ

from my understanding the rounds from those self detonate after a set distance to minimize damage. i.e. it missed the target and instead of flying until it destroys something it detonates after a extra few thousand feet becoming essentially harmless