Support NeoGAF

[donny2112]

...?

Top game on Xbox Live, I believe.

 

[poppabk]

http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/11/11/xbox-live-activity-for-week-of-11-6.aspx
Halo 2 is still top game played (based on unique users) a year after launch. After this week Gears of War takes over as the top title, and we have no info about Halo 2's position on the overall chart.

 

[dark10x]

The amount of on-screen action in Black's busiest scenes, when you take into account the screen-filling particle effects combined with the massive amount of enviornmental geometry, far surpasses that of any of the three games you listed. Are you seriously trying to dispute that?

All four games being discussed do certain things better than any of the other three, so maybe it's not as cut-and-dry as saying one game has a complete advantage over the others. But each of the three PC games' major selling points (Doom 3 - lighting and shadows; Half-Life 2 - physics; Far Cry - Large open enviornments with massive draw distances) have been replicated in other PS2 games, so your claim that the experience offered by those games is impossible to replicate on the PS2 is ludicrous.

Those games are doing much more than you seem to realize. You seem to equate "number of dudes onscreen" to how demanding a game is. The fact that a game may be set in small corridors does not necessarily mean there isn't a lot going on beneath the surface.

Each surface in Doom 3 uses 4 texture layers, for instance, in order to simulate additional detail. You have the base texture, a normal map, a specular map, and a diffuse map. These work in conjunction to create the appearance of depth. They are also impacted by the dynamic lights within the game world.

Speaking of lighting, all three games take advantage of shaders. This further enhances the quality of the surfaces and lighting. The PS2 was incapable of anything like this.

Look at this Doom shot. The surface textures on the wall, for instance, offer plenty of detail AND depth. It isn't simply a matter of casting shadows here, rather, it's how the lighting interacts with the surfaces. A light source above the character would cause shadows to be cast from the geometry, sure, but you'd also see a change in the surface textures.

What about the Source engine? It makes HEAVY usage of shaders for all surfaces, features complex geometry, demanding physics operations, and more.

I wouldn't say Black has a "massive amount of geometry". It's pretty boxy compared to Half-Life 2 or Far Cry especially.

Far Cry also sported MASSIVE maps with more detail on both the micro and marco scale.

Here's what you could do with the Far Cry 2004 engine...

Black looked insane for PS2 hardware, but really, it wasn't even remotely close to these games technically speaking. The art direction and their use of the tech they did have made it look similar on the surface, but really, if you started looking closely you'd see how low resolution the textures were and how boxy everything was. Furthermore, the quality of the gun combat was pretty poor.

Of course, all pale in comparison to this 2008 spectacle on the Wii...

 

[gamingeek]

Oh, what you are talking about is camera lock. If you hold down the A button (A by default, anyway) the camera will stop rotating, so you can just focus on pointing the cursor where it needs to go.

So, I mean in other games including WaW from what I remember, when you held down A to go into ADS mode if you moved the cursor to the edges the camera moved, sort of like having having a bounding box only much larger, which was annoying when you wanted to just aim at a corner without having the whole screen move.

In REFLEX this doesn't happen anymore or you can change things so that it doesn't?

 

[fyzxwhyz]

So, I mean in other games including WaW from what I remember, when you held down A to go into ADS mode if you moved the cursor to the edges the camera moved, sort of like having having a bounding box only much larger, which was annoying when you wanted to just aim at a corner without having the whole screen move.

This is exactly what the camera lock button did in WAW. Not the ADS button, the camera lock button. MW has the same feature. You can now use it in ADS as well as in regular aiming, which is a change from WAW.

 

[MGrant]

hey, cool. the quake 1 engine is looking nice.

 

[gamingeek]

This is exactly what the camera lock button did in WAW. Not the ADS button, the camera lock button. MW has the same feature. You can now use it in ADS as well as in regular aiming, which is a change from WAW.

I dont even remember the feature in WaW, I will have to try it out tommorrow. Sounds cool. Thanks very much for the heads up.

 

[hellclerk]

This is exactly what the camera lock button did in WAW. Not the ADS button, the camera lock button. MW has the same feature. You can now use it in ADS as well as in regular aiming, which is a change from WAW.

i have been wondering, are sniper scope reticles still locked at the center of the screen or can you move that now too?

 

[scitek]

Couple of things I'm wondering. Is the jump button still relegated to Up on the D-pad? And can you make the fire button A?

 

[fyzxwhyz]

Couple of things I'm wondering. Is the jump button still relegated to Up on the D-pad? And can you make the fire button A?

You can reconfigure it however you like. Someone posted my controls faq on page 23, you should read it.

 

[fyzxwhyz]

i have been wondering, are sniper scope reticles still locked at the center of the screen or can you move that now too?

Scope overlays stay in the center of the screen.

 

[Tain]

Each surface in Doom 3 uses 4 texture layers, for instance, in order to simulate additional detail. You have the base texture, a normal map, a specular map, and a diffuse map. These work in conjunction to create the appearance of depth. They are also impacted by the dynamic lights within the game world.

Great post, but what's the difference between a "base texture" and a diffuse map? Isn't the diffuse map the traditional texture image?

 

[Vagabundo]

fyzxwhyz: GAF award for most interactive developer 2009.

 

[hellclerk]

fyzxwhyz: GAF award for most interactive developer 2009.

yeah, i guess Dyack is 2008.

anyway, thanks whyz. sounds fine by me.

 

[dark10x]

Great post, but what's the difference between a "base texture" and a diffuse map? Isn't the diffuse map the traditional texture image?

Yeah, that's correct. I was thinking of something else, but you're right, the diffuse map is the primary texture applied to the geometry. The normal and specular maps add depth and allow interaction with light sources.

What I'm curious about is the speed in which the Wii can draw the different layers. What kind of penality does it incur?

 

[AceBandage]

Halo 2 was the top game played on the 360 for almost an entire year before they segregated the lists making it impossible to track. COD4 and WaW are indeed based on a modified Q3A (1999) engine, and WaW 'worked' on Wii in nearly all instances. You may be right that the discerning FPS player might be interested in games that are impossible on Wii, and the graphic whores will never be satisfied with a Wii version, but in terms of mechanics, I think you are grossly exaggerating what the mass audience 'needs' in their FPS games.

Hell, if the servers were still active, I'd be playing Tribes constantly.

 

[hellclerk]

Hell, if the servers were still active, I'd be playing Tribes constantly.

you DO know they have independent servers, right? i mean, i'd be playing it right now myself if i didn't know it would suck my life away, something i need for school (paintball mods forever!)

 

[AceBandage]

you DO know they have independent servers, right? i mean, i'd be playing it right now myself if i didn't know it would suck my life away, something i need for school (paintball mods forever!)

I got on about 5 months ago, and there were less than 50 people on at any one time. And none on the Shifter servers.

 

[beef3483]

This thread reminds me why I hate graphic whores.

 

[Jangaroo]

This thread reminds me why I hate graphic whores.

There's a fine line between being picky about a game that still looks great, and those terrible alpha shots of Modern Warfare [REFLEX]. We shouldn't be nitpicking at alpha stage screenshots, but really now, those are some poor images to use for the revealing of the game.

 

[ant1532]

first time clicking this thread, and only read the OP, so all I have to say is...
SWEET GRAPHICS BRO.

 

[MiniDitka]

Got a question for you fyzxwhyz that I'm hoping you can answer, is Reflex using Direct X? A bit of a debate is going on in another forum as to whether this is using it so I hope you can clear things up. Thanks.

 

[fyzxwhyz]

Got a question for you fyzxwhyz that I'm hoping you can answer, is Reflex using Direct X? A bit of a debate is going on in another forum as to whether this is using it so I hope you can clear things up. Thanks.

The engine does not use Direct X. I can't imagine why any wii developer would want to do that.

 

[MiniDitka]

The engine does not use Direct X. I can't imagine why any wii developer would want to do that.

Thanks much for the quick reply fyzxwhyz.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

The engine does not use Direct X. I can't imagine why any wii developer would want to do that.

Is it even possible? I highly doubt it.

 

[hellclerk]

Is it even possible? I highly doubt it.

it's not as far as i know. i'm pretty sure modern DirectX setups require programmable shaders, something the Wii doesn't have.

first time clicking this thread, and only read the OP, so all I have to say is...
SWEET GRAPHICS BRO.

if you read the rest of the thread, it gets even better, plus some solid info as well.

 

[MiniDitka]

One more question for you fyzxwhyz and I apologize in advance if its stupid but did the engine for the PS3/360 versions of MW use Dirtect X?

 

[fyzxwhyz]

Is it even possible? I highly doubt it.

I'm not a graphics programmer, but as far as I know, you don't have direct access to the wii's graphics hardware except through the API's given to you by nintendo, which interface to libraries that are closed-source. Your access to any OS-level stuff is similarly limited. So how exactly anyone would go about getting a microsoft API designed for windows hardware to work with the wii graphics hardware, assuming that for some reason you wanted to (and were permitted by Nintendo to forgo use of their graphics libraries), is beyond me.

 

[fyzxwhyz]

One more question for you fyzxwhyz and I apologize in advance if its stupid but did the engine for the PS3/360 versions of MW use Dirtect X?

As far as I know, the engine uses the respective SDK's provided by Sony and Microsoft for their platforms. I'm pretty sure the Xbox 360 SDK uses some variant of DirectX.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I'm not a graphics programmer, but as far as I know, you don't have direct access to the wii's graphics hardware except through the API's given to you by nintendo, which interface to libraries that are closed-source. Your access to any OS-level stuff is similarly limited. So how exactly anyone would go about getting a microsoft API designed for windows hardware to work with the wii graphics hardware, assuming that for some reason you wanted to (and were permitted by Nintendo to forgo use of their graphics libraries), is beyond me.

That was my exact thoughts as well. Although, Xbox and Zune families leverage DirectX, but yeah, on Nintendo hardware, you're probably not going to have access to Microsoft APIs.

If the debate was over whether OpenGL was possible, that might be something else. It'd still be a long shot, but not as long a shot.

 

[beef3483]

There's a fine line between being picky about a game that still looks great, and those terrible alpha shots of Modern Warfare [REFLEX]. We shouldn't be nitpicking at alpha stage screenshots, but really now, those are some poor images to use for the revealing of the game.

Nobody's played anything yet. I thought that was how we were supposed to judge games?

 

[MiniDitka]

As far as I know, the engine uses the respective SDK's provided by Sony and Microsoft for their platforms. I'm pretty sure the Xbox 360 SDK uses some variant of DirectX.

Okie Dokie. Just one last thing for ya. This was in response to a question you answered in this thread. BTW, I have this game already paid for

Since more than 70MB is available for textures across both memory banks, that 25MB figure strikes me as a bit odd. Assuming that you reserve 25MB for static assets used throughout the level, and then use the remaining memory for streaming assets, 45MB is still a lot of room for DXT-compressed textures... You are using those, right? Anyway, interesting read.

You realize we have an executable to run too, right? Every single data structure, library work buffer, and stream buffer allocation has to come out of those same two memory pools. More memory has to be set aside on top of that for common assets (font textures, etc.). That 25mb is all we have left over for the assets associated with the level data.

THEY BLEW SIXTY FOUR MEGANYTES OF GDDR3 ON EXECUTABLES!!!!! That is directly because of Direct x LMAO! I can see it now, execute buffers EVERYWHERE! As far as the eye can see, EVERYTHING needs an execute buffer SIXTY FOUR MEGABYTES OF EXECUTE BUFFERS!!!!

How about you use the native 'no cost' libraries so you dont have to waste ram forcing direct x executables and library fetches to blindly grope around non COM aware open gl based architecture.

Lol, climax fit all their executables in the 24 MB and had the entire GDDr3 pool available.

Direct X on wii =LOL.

 

[fyzxwhyz]

Originally Posted by SomeGuyAtIGN:
THEY BLEW SIXTY FOUR MEGANYTES OF GDDR3 ON EXECUTABLES!!!!! That is directly because of Direct x LMAO! I can see it now, execute buffers EVERYWHERE! As far as the eye can see, EVERYTHING needs an execute buffer SIXTY FOUR MEGABYTES OF EXECUTE BUFFERS!!!!

How about you use the native 'no cost' libraries so you dont have to waste ram forcing direct x executables and library fetches to blindly grope around non COM aware open gl based architecture.

Lol, climax fit all their executables in the 24 MB and had the entire GDDr3 pool available.

Direct X on wii =LOL.

I want some of what this guy smokes. Work would be hilarious.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I want some of what this guy smokes. Work would be hilarious.

No you don't.

He's smoking nothing... just schizophrenic.

 

[Smokey]

I want some of what this guy smokes. Work would be hilarious.

:lol

 

[MiniDitka]

Thanks again for answering my questions. I look forward to checking out the game since I never played the original.

 

[hellclerk]

Nobody's played anything yet. I thought that was how we were supposed to judge games?

well, people HAVE played the game, and so far it seems positive. Activision is just being stingy as shit by not releasing any media. thank God for people like fyzxwhyz...

 

[silverbullet1080]

well, people HAVE played the game, and so far it seems positive. Activision is just being stingy as shit by not releasing any media. thank God for people like fyzxwhyz...

Which puzzles me actually.

This IS supposed to look better than WaW right? If so, then they really have nothing to lose by releasing like 1 trailer.

 

[superbank]

Oh. If he was being facetious, then well, "whoosh."

It is pretty silly though when people try to do a graphical comparison between call of duty and something like mario galaxy (with what are effectively cartoon characters), without acknowledging that realistic human characters require an extra level of system resources. A HUGE chunk of our memory is taken up by character animation data for each of the thousands of different body and facial poses that our characters can be in. Each character has 100+ individually animated bones and has to be prepared to play any combination of thousands of animations. This is especially true in MP - if someone tries to fire an rpg while leaning left, aiming upwards, and jumping off a building, we need to have a realistic-looking human animation ready to handle that. Altogether, human character animations comprise an enormous amount of data.

A lot of shooters opt to use aliens, animals, or stylized figures rather than humans just to avoid the skinning and animation problems that come up. Even games that do go with human characters often cover up the faces with masks, or similar, to get around having to do facial animation. The memory they save on animations and character models can go straight toward texture or fx resolution. Galaxy is a fantastic looking game, but you're not really comparing apples to apples when you ask why captain price doesn't look quite the same as mario or bowser.

I have a bit of an issue with this animation talk. Humor me, I'm just an animation student working in Maya, I've never worked on a game or know how it works.

I feel like I could achieve the same visual style that this game is going for (and many HD games go for) with 60-70 joints as opposed to 100+. Are these extra joints going into the face? If so does that mean this games characters will emote more during gameplay? I've played Cod4 and WaW on PS3 and from what I can remember they just sort of open their mouths one way and thats it. I never noticed them blink or move their eyes/eyebrows. I can't remember too well honestly because during the game you don't really pay attention to their faces because of the distance and you're just trying to kill them as fast as possible.

Which brings up another point: Why would so much work go into the facial animations when you can't see it clearly when playing? I can understand a complex face during story mode for the characters who talk to you face to face for extended periods of time but during gameplay a simple opening and closing of the mouth seems fine if you don't want to use up resources.

It sounds like you're an animator on this project so it would be cool to get your insight on the subject. Thanks.

 

[Ormberg]

This is currently the most interesting topic on neogaf, I'd say. Thanks fyzxwhyz, this is why I frequent this forum.

And I'm trying to promote this game in any way I can, but without media it's pretty hard! Very interesting to hear about the engines and all that. Also very encouraging to hear about people actually wanting to work on the Wii version!

 

[jacksrb]

Echo the thanks to fyzxwhyz for the insights.

I assume since the game is coming out Nov 10th that it is finished. Are you guys still messing with it? How soon before the discs get burned to you have to submit the final build?

As a Wii-only owner (time limitations), I am looking forward to experiencing this game.

 

[Disguises]

Popped into HMV today to check about the weird dates in their database. Turns out the false modern warfare 2 Wii entry has gone and the date for reflex has been changed to the correct date of 10th Nov. (wished it was out 26th Oct like the database said!). All sorted for the midnight launch too! More hyped for this than modern warfare 2 now thanks to the midnight launch and partly because I've played CoD4 before and know it's good and reflex should be just as good/even better.

I'd also like to say thanks for all the great information, fyzxwhyz!

 

[beef3483]

well, people HAVE played the game, and so far it seems positive. Activision is just being stingy as shit by not releasing any media. thank God for people like fyzxwhyz...

Well, I was referring to people on this board, but that still supports my point of not judging a game on it's graphics.

 

[fyzxwhyz]

I have a bit of an issue with this animation talk. Humor me, I'm just an animation student working in Maya, I've never worked on a game or know how it works.

I feel like I could achieve the same visual style that this game is going for (and many HD games go for) with 60-70 joints as opposed to 100+. Are these extra joints going into the face? If so does that mean this games characters will emote more during gameplay? I've played Cod4 and WaW on PS3 and from what I can remember they just sort of open their mouths one way and thats it. I never noticed them blink or move their eyes/eyebrows. I can't remember too well honestly because during the game you don't really pay attention to their faces because of the distance and you're just trying to kill them as fast as possible.

Which brings up another point: Why would so much work go into the facial animations when you can't see it clearly when playing? I can understand a complex face during story mode for the characters who talk to you face to face for extended periods of time but during gameplay a simple opening and closing of the mouth seems fine if you don't want to use up resources.

It sounds like you're an animator on this project so it would be cool to get your insight on the subject. Thanks.

I'm not an animator, so take this with a grain of salt, but the number of bones and level of detail depends entirely on the character model and what it's expected to do over the course of the game. We had to cut out, on average, probably half of the bones from the original character models, and indeed, quite a few of those were face bones and finger bones. Our character guys did a really good job of optimizing the skeletons while preserving most of the animation quality, and they had to make some tough decisions about which bones could go and which could stay. It's important to realize too that not all of the bones in a character skeleton represent actual "bones" - a lot of these are utility bones that we use for things like attaching weapons, emitting voice data, and some other under-the-hood tasks. The need for these utility bones is one reason why the bone count might seem a little high at first glance.

 

[superbank]

I'm not an animator, so take this with a grain of salt, but the number of bones and level of detail depends entirely on the character model and what it's expected to do over the course of the game. We had to cut out, on average, probably half of the bones from the original character models, and indeed, quite a few of those were face bones and finger bones. Our character guys did a really good job of optimizing the skeletons while preserving most of the animation quality, and they had to make some tough decisions about which bones could go and which could stay. It's important to realize too that not all of the bones in a character skeleton represent actual "bones" - a lot of these are utility bones that we use for things like attaching weapons, emitting voice data, and some other under-the-hood tasks. The need for these utility bones is one reason why the bone count might seem a little high at first glance.

Oh I see. So all of the functions of the character are "bones" as well.

It's awesome when devs come into the discussions at gaf. Thanks fyzxwhyz.

 

[jacksrb]

Name changed to CoD: Modern Warfare: Reflex Edition?

See link on Nintendo's website here.

 

[AceBandage]

Name changed to CoD: Modern Warfare: Reflex Edition?

See link on Nintendo's website here.

Yeah, it's in the thread title.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Yeah, it's in the thread title.

No, the title has changed from CoD: MW Reflex to COD: MW Reflex Edition. Dunno why, but hey...

 

[rezuth]

Still no media?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

So fyzxwhyz, I gotta ask.

What is up with that dude in the bottom-right corner? :lol