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Can the current-gen consoles reach "Best console ever" status?
- Thread starter Majine
- Start date
I frankly have a problem thinking of anything that fits first category(except for visuals really). Some would say "Wii" but most of that stuff has been done before in some way or another too.Suairyu said:
That's patently false.szaromir said:
Something like C64 had over 20k titles released for it over its lifetime, and the only thing that would compare in terms of variety is PC market, but that's not even a platform.
As for platforms that offer "apps", we're discussing games here, so no dice either
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Pimpbaa said:
If you actually read my post you'd know that I played most of these games for the first time ever this generation. So I recommend you do that poster who doesn't read posts.
Gunstar Heroes
Pulseman
Dynamite Heady
Donkey Kong Country 2
Castlevania IV
I've had far more fun with these games then I've had with nearly any games of the previous generation. Only a handful of games I've played this generation have matched those titles alone.
BritBloke916
Member
Best console EVER? I use a picture of it as my avatar. All else is some kind of new-fangled work of the devil 
Edit: In all seriousness, whilst it was inevitable that production costs and space limitations would eventually doom games cartridges, I sorely miss the eras of instantaneous loading!
Edit: In all seriousness, whilst it was inevitable that production costs and space limitations would eventually doom games cartridges, I sorely miss the eras of instantaneous loading!
flabberghastly
Member
Just on the number of games that I consider classics, I don't think any of the three consoles have reached that point yet, though they could at some point. And while we can talk endlessly about how complex certain aspects of games have become, or how amazing the graphics are now compared to then, etc, I don't feel like this can somehow overshadow the fun to be had or brilliance to be found in the older games. (Note: the future points will include mention of PC games, used to make comparisons with the current console generation, and will exclude handheld games, because the DS is probably the best handheld of all time.) I mean, sure, we can talk about how online gaming can now keep you connected to all of your friends all of the time across numerous games, but does that suddenly take away the fun to be had in the past playing GoldenEye with three of your friends sitting directly with you in the living room, attending a LAN party for Counter-Strike, or standing in a queue at the arcade so you can publicly stomp someone at Super Street Fighter 2? I don't think it does. If anything, I feel more connected when my friends are in the same room with me, and not just abstracted to a digitized voice streaming through an earpiece. Has online extended the lives of our games? Indubitably. But that doesn't always and necessarily mean that it has made them better.
Speaking in terms of just genres, I certainly don't feel like we've made a universal step forward. In terms of WRPGs, I haven't seen anything this generation that can top the singular experiences of Ultima IV and Planescape: Torment. Or in the vague genre of Shooter/RPG, I certainly wouldn't argue that Mass Effect 1 & 2 or BioShock are better than Deus Ex and System Shock 2. For JRPGs, I haven't even seen much of anything worth noting. Something like FFXIII is a far cry from its predecessors, like FFVI and FFIX. In stealth games, we certainly haven't made progress past games like MGS3 and Thief: Deadly Shadows - in fact, MGS4 was, for me, a step back for the series. And this is just to focus on a few of the genres I particularly like, and doesn't mention the fact - since I'm focusing on a universal step forward for genres - that some genres have made incredible steps forward, like platformers, with SMG1 & 2, Braid, and Portal leading the way, and LBP opening a door for enormous future potential.
So, in terms of the games I'd list as the absolute classics of this generation, what I consider the ultimate test as to whether a generation or console is worthy of the best-of-all-time title (and now I'll restrict myself to just the consoles, and ignore the PC), I'd list:
Flower
SMG1 & 2
Portal
Gears of War 1 & 2
Uncharted 1 & 2
Braid
Bayonetta
(Super) SFIV
Your mileage may vary, - and it's a list that consciously excludes great games that I don't really consider absolute classics, like RDR, Demon's Souls, LBP, PixelJunk Eden, etc. - but that's a pretty meager list for any generation, and certainly doesn't make any one console especially superior. Of course, we've got a couple more years, so things can certainly change. Games like the Last Guardian, Journey, Portal 2, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and LBP2 certainly have me excited, so who knows?
Speaking in terms of just genres, I certainly don't feel like we've made a universal step forward. In terms of WRPGs, I haven't seen anything this generation that can top the singular experiences of Ultima IV and Planescape: Torment. Or in the vague genre of Shooter/RPG, I certainly wouldn't argue that Mass Effect 1 & 2 or BioShock are better than Deus Ex and System Shock 2. For JRPGs, I haven't even seen much of anything worth noting. Something like FFXIII is a far cry from its predecessors, like FFVI and FFIX. In stealth games, we certainly haven't made progress past games like MGS3 and Thief: Deadly Shadows - in fact, MGS4 was, for me, a step back for the series. And this is just to focus on a few of the genres I particularly like, and doesn't mention the fact - since I'm focusing on a universal step forward for genres - that some genres have made incredible steps forward, like platformers, with SMG1 & 2, Braid, and Portal leading the way, and LBP opening a door for enormous future potential.
So, in terms of the games I'd list as the absolute classics of this generation, what I consider the ultimate test as to whether a generation or console is worthy of the best-of-all-time title (and now I'll restrict myself to just the consoles, and ignore the PC), I'd list:
Flower
SMG1 & 2
Portal
Gears of War 1 & 2
Uncharted 1 & 2
Braid
Bayonetta
(Super) SFIV
Your mileage may vary, - and it's a list that consciously excludes great games that I don't really consider absolute classics, like RDR, Demon's Souls, LBP, PixelJunk Eden, etc. - but that's a pretty meager list for any generation, and certainly doesn't make any one console especially superior. Of course, we've got a couple more years, so things can certainly change. Games like the Last Guardian, Journey, Portal 2, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and LBP2 certainly have me excited, so who knows?
Open Source said:
I think most (sorry for generalizing) are coming from this perspective. I've taken every generation as it is. Gaming has certainly grown with me so I respect the current generation as it stands now. There is without a doubt more that has come from this generation (content and hardware wise) than from previous.
LosDaddie said:This is already the best console gen ever. Gaming has never been better than it is today. I'm very happy this gen will continue on for at least 2 more years.
People are too blinded by nostalgia.
I think when this generation is over, most will look back in hindsight and make the case for or against. We're more than 1/2 way into this current generation. There is still plenty of time!
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
x360 has for me. XBLA is the greatest thing to happen to console gaming since forever. Combines the awesomeness of steam with the strict as fuck standards of consoles. Love it.
VivaciousSoul
Member
I dont like the way that people are saying hey I just went back and played Super Mario World just last week and it wasnt that amazing compared to Gears of War
The way I see it you have to compare your first time playing games from previous generations to your first time playing games from this generation.
It isnt fair to say Who cares about Super Mario 64? We have Super Mario Galaxy now! Compare the first time you played Super Mario 64 to the first time you played Super Mario Galaxy.
The alternative is to wait until were 10 or 15 years past this generation and say Who cares about Uncharted 2? We have Uncharted 6!
The fact that games still do hold up today is a testimony to their great design and is only an added bonus.
It certainly isnt all nostalgia.
The medium and industry being fresher back then (with all the gameplay mechanics not exhausted yet) is an inherent good quality to that period that cannot be stripped away in the same way that you cannot strip away newer technology and online from this generation. Previous generations have freshness and newness and I almost want to say soul, recent generations have technology and refinement.
The way I see it you have to compare your first time playing games from previous generations to your first time playing games from this generation.
It isnt fair to say Who cares about Super Mario 64? We have Super Mario Galaxy now! Compare the first time you played Super Mario 64 to the first time you played Super Mario Galaxy.
The alternative is to wait until were 10 or 15 years past this generation and say Who cares about Uncharted 2? We have Uncharted 6!
The fact that games still do hold up today is a testimony to their great design and is only an added bonus.
It certainly isnt all nostalgia.
The medium and industry being fresher back then (with all the gameplay mechanics not exhausted yet) is an inherent good quality to that period that cannot be stripped away in the same way that you cannot strip away newer technology and online from this generation. Previous generations have freshness and newness and I almost want to say soul, recent generations have technology and refinement.
None of the big three--360, PS3, and Wii--will probably ever been considered one of the best consoles ever. The 360 kicked off this generation of consoles over four years ago, which is nearly the length of previous console lifespans. In that amount of time there have been fewer great games released than ever before, and most of the games that are really good this generation are merely refinements of pre-established genres and ideas. Now I'm not saying I don't know the reasons for this shift. The development costs of HD consoles led to fewer risks being taken on original gameplay concepts and IP's as well as the closing down of countless developers from previous generations, and the continued mainstreaming of gaming in the United States during the simultaneous decline of the gaming industry in Japan means that the industry as a whole has been catering to undiscerning Western audience since the 360 launched.
Without a doubt for those of us who grew up during the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, Japan's lessened influence and input over the games we play this generation has been the biggest disappointment. I believe it to be the core problem responsible for the sense of boredom felt by gamers my age over the last four years. While Japanese developers may envy the business and production pipelining aspects of American game companies in the HD era, it has unfortunately led to what few Japanese developers remain emulating Western devs in a desperate attempt to make a profit internationally.
I am in no way trying to idealize Japanese-made games. What I am saying, however, is that the level of creativity and passion demonstrated by Japanese developers throughout the 80's, 90's, and maybe the early 2000's has been sorely missed this generation by gamers who were fortunate enough to have experienced the fruits of their influence during childhood.
Of course, I am speaking from my limited twenty-something perspective, and I can't claim how kids who've grown up with these three consoles will feel in retrospect years from now. Obviously I would just sound like a nostalgic bastard to a kid who cut his teeth on Modern Warfare or any other popular game of today. So unfortunately, it's one of those "you had to be there" notions that is impossible to effectively communicate across age and experience gaps.
The PS2 era was the beginning of the end, due to mainstreaming of the industry in America. However, that console went on to be one of the greatest ever because budgets were not nearly as astronomical and Japan was still a major player in the industry. Really, money is the deal breaker. Why do you think so many people in this thread have cited the DS as an exception to the rule? Because DS games take less time and cost less money to develop. Thus you get a library with more diversity, due to less risk and more experimentation. Kind of like previous console generations, right?
What about the Wii, you say? Its games have smaller budgets and shorter development schedules than those on the PS3 and 360. True, but the problem with that console is support. Sure, Nintendo still puts out some good games for their system, but once again they're just sequels or remakes of games that were original ideas during the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. Finding other gems amongst the shovelware is taxing enough to prevent anyone from ever thinking that the Wii is the "best console ever."
Anyway, sorry for the long, poorly constructed rant. I am typing this from work, so it had to be hurried along. Rest assured, though, that I could go on about this subject indefinitely.
Without a doubt for those of us who grew up during the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, Japan's lessened influence and input over the games we play this generation has been the biggest disappointment. I believe it to be the core problem responsible for the sense of boredom felt by gamers my age over the last four years. While Japanese developers may envy the business and production pipelining aspects of American game companies in the HD era, it has unfortunately led to what few Japanese developers remain emulating Western devs in a desperate attempt to make a profit internationally.
I am in no way trying to idealize Japanese-made games. What I am saying, however, is that the level of creativity and passion demonstrated by Japanese developers throughout the 80's, 90's, and maybe the early 2000's has been sorely missed this generation by gamers who were fortunate enough to have experienced the fruits of their influence during childhood.
Of course, I am speaking from my limited twenty-something perspective, and I can't claim how kids who've grown up with these three consoles will feel in retrospect years from now. Obviously I would just sound like a nostalgic bastard to a kid who cut his teeth on Modern Warfare or any other popular game of today. So unfortunately, it's one of those "you had to be there" notions that is impossible to effectively communicate across age and experience gaps.
The PS2 era was the beginning of the end, due to mainstreaming of the industry in America. However, that console went on to be one of the greatest ever because budgets were not nearly as astronomical and Japan was still a major player in the industry. Really, money is the deal breaker. Why do you think so many people in this thread have cited the DS as an exception to the rule? Because DS games take less time and cost less money to develop. Thus you get a library with more diversity, due to less risk and more experimentation. Kind of like previous console generations, right?
What about the Wii, you say? Its games have smaller budgets and shorter development schedules than those on the PS3 and 360. True, but the problem with that console is support. Sure, Nintendo still puts out some good games for their system, but once again they're just sequels or remakes of games that were original ideas during the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. Finding other gems amongst the shovelware is taxing enough to prevent anyone from ever thinking that the Wii is the "best console ever."
Anyway, sorry for the long, poorly constructed rant. I am typing this from work, so it had to be hurried along. Rest assured, though, that I could go on about this subject indefinitely.
captmcblack
Member
This gen sold out too much of the "goodness" of gaming for it to be home to a "best console ever". We have more ways to pay for more individual portions of games than ever before - more DLC, more unlocks, more expansions of expansions, more costumes, more demos, more advertising, more everything. We have less important free features and more things that don't add real-world gaming value to games - more achievements/trophies and achievement points, more ways to use the same social networking features we use on our computers, phones, tablets and cable boxes.
We did get indie gaming and game development out of the garage and made it possible to be a real developer even if you aren't hardcore enough to buy a Net Yaroze box or be some dude with a hacked Action Replay and a dream lurking underground forums forever. And we did get a rededication to the purity of input and fun in games...which is a big fucking deal.
...but that's it, really. The overwhelming majority of this gen's games won't be played in 10 years...20 years or so, the same way we - and everyone else under the Sun - seem to be able to play games from the 8/16/32 bit generation endlessly. There are maybe 10 games I'm sure people will play forever this gen - Super Street Fighter IV, the Mario Galaxy and NSMB games, Portal, and maybe some handheld games that I'm not thinking of - but after that, nothing really. I don't see BIGASS SPACE MARINE SHOOTER 9 or BIGASS COVER SHOOTER 5 or ADORABLE FAMILY MOTION CONTROLLED MINIGAME COLLECTION being a timeless game the way Super Mario Bros, Pac-Man, Tetris and shit like that.
Moreover, the consoles themselves are too janky and nickel-and-dimey to be timeless themselves. If your PS3/Wii/360 doesn't break in 2 years or hasn't broken already, half of your current gaming content will be worthless if you can't access the cloud with your accounts once they've moved onto the next system. If your HDDs break, you're fucked also. This gen is alright. If they find a way to blend the indie focus and input focus with a return to providing full unique retail experiences without being piecemeal for profit, we can talk next gen.
We did get indie gaming and game development out of the garage and made it possible to be a real developer even if you aren't hardcore enough to buy a Net Yaroze box or be some dude with a hacked Action Replay and a dream lurking underground forums forever. And we did get a rededication to the purity of input and fun in games...which is a big fucking deal.
...but that's it, really. The overwhelming majority of this gen's games won't be played in 10 years...20 years or so, the same way we - and everyone else under the Sun - seem to be able to play games from the 8/16/32 bit generation endlessly. There are maybe 10 games I'm sure people will play forever this gen - Super Street Fighter IV, the Mario Galaxy and NSMB games, Portal, and maybe some handheld games that I'm not thinking of - but after that, nothing really. I don't see BIGASS SPACE MARINE SHOOTER 9 or BIGASS COVER SHOOTER 5 or ADORABLE FAMILY MOTION CONTROLLED MINIGAME COLLECTION being a timeless game the way Super Mario Bros, Pac-Man, Tetris and shit like that.
Moreover, the consoles themselves are too janky and nickel-and-dimey to be timeless themselves. If your PS3/Wii/360 doesn't break in 2 years or hasn't broken already, half of your current gaming content will be worthless if you can't access the cloud with your accounts once they've moved onto the next system. If your HDDs break, you're fucked also. This gen is alright. If they find a way to blend the indie focus and input focus with a return to providing full unique retail experiences without being piecemeal for profit, we can talk next gen.
I'd love to consider one for that title when I get a console that offers something other than a version of my PC with muscular dystrophy and somehow had its knee caps bashed in.
Between the saturation of me-too take on brodawg genres, "AAA" whoring, piss poor hardware, DLC retardation, and the fact that owning less than two consoles would leave one out of the bulk of enjoyable experiences to be had in the market amongst other things, the idea that any console could be the "best ever" is a solid joke and a half.
While there's a lot to like about what's going on in the console market right now, there's also shit tons of things to hate. Let's kindly not pretend that this cheap "best ever" superlative is any less ridiculous than the accusations of nostalgia-tinted shades.
Between the saturation of me-too take on brodawg genres, "AAA" whoring, piss poor hardware, DLC retardation, and the fact that owning less than two consoles would leave one out of the bulk of enjoyable experiences to be had in the market amongst other things, the idea that any console could be the "best ever" is a solid joke and a half.
While there's a lot to like about what's going on in the console market right now, there's also shit tons of things to hate. Let's kindly not pretend that this cheap "best ever" superlative is any less ridiculous than the accusations of nostalgia-tinted shades.
No current console can be considered as the best ever. The quantity and variety of the library is downright piss-poor.
But if you have to choose the best of the generation, then PS3 is it. It has one of the better library out of the three, solid hardware, HD media, best audio support, free online, and the strong on-going support in its 6th year
But if you have to choose the best of the generation, then PS3 is it. It has one of the better library out of the three, solid hardware, HD media, best audio support, free online, and the strong on-going support in its 6th year
LosDaddie said:
Really? Do you just really, really like first-person shooters or something? I don't mean to sound like a dick, but how has the focus on Western markets given us better games? Or is it just the development of online console play in the West that makes this your favorite generation?
Again, I'm not being sarcastic. I would really like to know what we've gained from losing Japan's influence.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Excellent generation and I do think the PS3 and X360 should go down as some of the best ever up there with the Genesis, PS2 and SNES. but I would have to say, no. There has been some GREAT games this generation and I own a huge plethora of games I love, but the horrible, unreliable hardware holds it back imo. 6-7 X360's, both of my PS3's stopped working around the same month and they supposedly cannot be fixed and are expensive to replace. Come one now, my PS2, Dreamcast, Gamecube and XBox all still work fine and I had them forever. The rising cost of development has really made this hobby expensive and DLC is getting ridiculous. Japanese gaming which I love, seems like it is slowing down big time and the shift to Western dominance makes me wonder about my future in this industry. Don't get me wrong, I also like Western games, but Japanese games are becoming fewer and fewer as the generation goes by and I prefer their style. I think there was much more diversity back in the previous generations. This generation, it seems to be all about shooters and multiplayer.
I don't get the nostalgia argument. I only played Chrono Trigger recently and it made me question the quality of big budget RPGs available today; a completely subjective mindset. If ever one decided to periodically revisit their childhood gaming life only to realize they prefer retro to modern, does that make them as delusional now as they supposedly were back then?
wind_steaker
Member
if you count the catalogues of downloadable software I'm sure you could consider it as the best. Hopefully we will get a few SOTC level classics before the gen is out though.
I've been gaming since the Atari days. Have always owned all major consoles and have been a PC gamer since the early 90s. This generation I only own one console and I still think it is the best generation there has ever been. Most of the credit for that would have to go to services like XBL and the absolute variety that services like XBLA/PSN add to the mixture alongside the big blockbusters at retail. I've probably turned on my console at least once a day every day since I've had it. Which I can't say for really any other generation.
No generation even comes close in my opinion.
No generation even comes close in my opinion.
ScOULaris said:
Well yeah, I do like shooters, from FPSs (Halo Reach is the best FPS on consoles, IMO) to TPSs (Uncharted2 and Gears2) and even shooter-RPGs (Mass Effect and FO3). But it's also because Western-focused devs like to get people playing together. I love co-op gaming and this gen has been awesome for co-op: Gears series, RE5, MUA2, FPSs (Halo, MW2, Res2, etc), Dead Rising 2, NSMB Wii....the list goes on.
I also like sports games, and there's never been a better time to be a sports gamer. NBA 2k11, NCAA Football 11, NHL 11, Madden 10...and even a new NBA Jam. Just an awesome slate of great games to play. Sports gaming has never been better.
Then there are the WEstern-focused SP games that have been amazing: Batman AA, Heavy Rain, inFAMOUS, GoW 3, Dead Space, Mass Effect series, Bioshock, AssCreed series....the list goes on. I'd add GTA IV in that list too, even though it has MP. One of the best games ever, IMO.
ScOULaris said:
More games that a Western-gamer like myself want to play.
Simply the best gen ever. It's not even a debate, IMO.
captmcblack said:
GAF is the only place I know where people play retro games on a regular basis. Everyone I know IRL plays modern/new games.
Wow. You just listed bunch of stuff that I actually loathe about this console gen or features that have absolutely no bearing on my judgment of "best console ever". Seriously, how is amount of games with an exorbitant budget a bullet point for this console gen? :lolOpen Source said:
If I made your post in defense of this console gen it would have been edited down to:
Of course that's just my own personal opinion about what makes a console good.
The "core gamer" demographic used to consist of enthusiasts like most of us here on NeoGAF. Those of us who care deeply enough about the medium to want to see it grow and continue to offer us new experiences that go beyond simply emulating Summer Blockbuster films.
Somewhere midway through the PS2/Xbox era and continuing on into today, as gaming moved into the mainstream, we began to be displaced from that coveted marketing demographic. Now, people who strictly play shooters and sports games are viewed as "core gamers" by the publishers, and as of now they make up for a sizable chunk of the consumer market.
On the other end of the spectrum you have "casual gamers." The term generally evokes images of soccer moms and old folks playing Wii Sports or Insert-Exercise-Game here. We can thank the Wii's initial success due to novelty and low price point during an economic crisis for making publishers think that this demographic is one worth pursuing. The fact is simple: "casual gamers" buy very few games in general, and they hardly spend much time playing the few that they do own.
Before the shift, a "casual gamer" to me was someone who only played Halo and Madden. The kind of person who would buy maybe 2-3 games a year, most of which were sequels to popular FPS games or the year's installment of a sports franchise. Once that demographic grew in number, we started seeing more FPS games and sequels being produced in order to satisfy the simple demands of that group.
So now we are full swing into a generation dominated by shooters, sequels, and generally soulless design. To the average Western gamer, that's just fine and dandy. But what about the rest of us? What about the enthusiasts who care enough to buy more games than any other demographic as long as they are good, or at the very least interesting on a conceptual level? I can admit that in terms of sheer numbers we are dwarfed by the new "core gamer" crowd, but the fact is we are the ones who would be buying the most games on a per-individual level if games were being made to cater to us once again.
It's not that we are blindly nostalgic; we are discerning. We have a problem with playing the same, sterile shooters over and over again, and we look to the past in order to better understand how the present can right itself. Before gaming went mainstream and new demographics started grabbing the attention of publishers, game consumers consisted mostly of those who now consider themselves enthusiasts. People who still follow the maturation of the industry and hope for its success, despite feeling left out in the cold as compared to previous console generations.
Is it so hard to believe that games, in general, were better on average 10-15 years ago than they are now? It's not as though everything improves with time, governed by some invisible force. While nostalgia certainly colors our recollection of older games, the fact is that a lot of people here routinely play classic games today because what's in store for today's consoles doesn't give us the same level of enjoyment. I somehow missed Super Metroid as a kid, but I decided to play through it in 2007, my junior year of college. It's now one of my favorite games ever. There were no rose-tinted glasses in effect. I was evaluating that game by today's standards and in the face of all the "progress" that has transgressed over the past 15-or-so years since that game's release.
Yeesh, I don't know how I have gotten suckered into these rants twice in one work day, but this is an issue that I am very passionate about. I would love nothing more than for publishers to start taking the former "hardcore" class of gamers into consideration, but that is something that looks very unlikely with Japan's continuing decline in the industry.
Somewhere midway through the PS2/Xbox era and continuing on into today, as gaming moved into the mainstream, we began to be displaced from that coveted marketing demographic. Now, people who strictly play shooters and sports games are viewed as "core gamers" by the publishers, and as of now they make up for a sizable chunk of the consumer market.
On the other end of the spectrum you have "casual gamers." The term generally evokes images of soccer moms and old folks playing Wii Sports or Insert-Exercise-Game here. We can thank the Wii's initial success due to novelty and low price point during an economic crisis for making publishers think that this demographic is one worth pursuing. The fact is simple: "casual gamers" buy very few games in general, and they hardly spend much time playing the few that they do own.
Before the shift, a "casual gamer" to me was someone who only played Halo and Madden. The kind of person who would buy maybe 2-3 games a year, most of which were sequels to popular FPS games or the year's installment of a sports franchise. Once that demographic grew in number, we started seeing more FPS games and sequels being produced in order to satisfy the simple demands of that group.
So now we are full swing into a generation dominated by shooters, sequels, and generally soulless design. To the average Western gamer, that's just fine and dandy. But what about the rest of us? What about the enthusiasts who care enough to buy more games than any other demographic as long as they are good, or at the very least interesting on a conceptual level? I can admit that in terms of sheer numbers we are dwarfed by the new "core gamer" crowd, but the fact is we are the ones who would be buying the most games on a per-individual level if games were being made to cater to us once again.
It's not that we are blindly nostalgic; we are discerning. We have a problem with playing the same, sterile shooters over and over again, and we look to the past in order to better understand how the present can right itself. Before gaming went mainstream and new demographics started grabbing the attention of publishers, game consumers consisted mostly of those who now consider themselves enthusiasts. People who still follow the maturation of the industry and hope for its success, despite feeling left out in the cold as compared to previous console generations.
Is it so hard to believe that games, in general, were better on average 10-15 years ago than they are now? It's not as though everything improves with time, governed by some invisible force. While nostalgia certainly colors our recollection of older games, the fact is that a lot of people here routinely play classic games today because what's in store for today's consoles doesn't give us the same level of enjoyment. I somehow missed Super Metroid as a kid, but I decided to play through it in 2007, my junior year of college. It's now one of my favorite games ever. There were no rose-tinted glasses in effect. I was evaluating that game by today's standards and in the face of all the "progress" that has transgressed over the past 15-or-so years since that game's release.
Yeesh, I don't know how I have gotten suckered into these rants twice in one work day, but this is an issue that I am very passionate about. I would love nothing more than for publishers to start taking the former "hardcore" class of gamers into consideration, but that is something that looks very unlikely with Japan's continuing decline in the industry.
Omotesando
Member
theBishop said:
Bioshock: Lost interest for being a corridor shooter, with halfassed secondary skills that could have been designed by Bethesda. After 4 hours into the game, I ditched it.
Uncharted 2: Great presentation and storytelling, genuine emotion and great music. But still a generic third person shooter at its core. Boss fights are a testiment to its actual mediocrity.
Mass Effect 2: watered down version of ME1, which I lost interest in for being crap in gameplay and game performance, I lost interest in dialogue metagaming since KOTOR 2.
I will probably play the game on PC next summer, when I have time. Afterall, people keep telling me it's a classic.
Gears of War: wut?
Red Dead redemption: Vice City is still one of my favorite games of all times. I loved San Andreas, but the gameplay is like a bad breath, stale and ancient. GTA4 only made me cringe with anger. Only a few hours into RDR I realised this is GTA4 in the wild west.
Borderlands, I rather grind in WoW, than grind in a halfassed first person shooter.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
ScOULaris said:
Excellent post. Well said. I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is exactly how I feel about gaming today. I feel alienated and forgotten. It really does makes me wonder about the future for former hardcore gamers. Gaming is in a sad state when I can basically predict what games are going to sale abundantly and what games are going to perform miserably. I don't think anyone can predict that in the music or film industry like you can in the gaming industry. For every fighting game, beat em up or JRPG we get 20 er...mainstream games or sequels.
ScOULaris said:
Yes, because I don't agree that gaming was better 10-15 years ago. Sure, there were great games back then, but nothing I'd prefer to play over today's games.
The rest of you rant read like some elitist, hardcore gamer who's angry because his niche gaming tastes have become, well, a niche market.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone in vastly preferring Japanese games to their western counterparts. Many of them revel in 'gamey' elements, while plenty of western devs look to make things as streamlined and standardized as possible. I much prefer the western games from the days of yore - the Sierra and Lucasarts adventures, the Infinity Engine games (Bioware says they will never again tackle a game with the scope of Baldur's Gate 2), the Ultima games (most WRPGs nowadays are a joke comparatively), the early FPS games like Doom. They just seem much more imaginative in terms of their graphics, settings, themes, and mechanics. For every western game like Mirror's Edge or Portal, there are 45 million COD clones. At least when Japan finally does a HD console release, the game usually tries to do something different, for better (Valkyria Chronicles, Resonance of Fate, Dead Rising) or for worse (FF13, RE5).
ScOULaris, absolutely fantastic post, definitely echoes a lot of my own sentiments.
ScOULaris, absolutely fantastic post, definitely echoes a lot of my own sentiments.
Liabe Brave
Member
Even without special pleading it's pretty damn good; the average level of quality for SNES games is shockingly high. (I think partially due to the lack of technical/design/aesthetic hurdles that 3D and HD erect, but that's another discussion.)Stumpokapow said:
Top PCs absolutely do have the best library ever--accept the sometime jankiness of recent-gen emulation, and the possible legal issues about older emulation, and there's absolutely no contest. PC is truly the master race: the most games run, and run best.Stumpokapow said:
But I used the phrase "home console", and specifically highlighted the phrase too. Ignoring PC (and maybe portables, though maybe not), I believe launch PS3 has the biggest library of great games.
ScOULaris said:
I grew up on 8 and 16bit (and arcades and everything before), and I'm enjoying this current gen more than anything previous. The Japanese influence was never a big factor for me, as most of the 8bit gaming I did was on the C64 which was mainly UK and USA developers.
The supposed heyday of Japanese development, PS1 and N64, are in fact my least favourite era in gaming. I skipped those consoles and was a PC gamer at the time.
I think people make the mistake that the 80s and 90s was all Japanese games. Which is a bit of a shame really as the C64, Amiga and PC combined probably created the largest and most diverse library of games ever. You've missed out on a massive percentage of gaming history.
MushroomSamba
Member
LosDaddie said:
Don't get me wrong, I love this current gen so far (I've probably owned more games this gen than any of the previous ones, and this gen is still far from over), but objectively-speaking, it's hard to see most of those games withstanding the test of time.
I'm already tired of Halo Reach, Gears 2, and God of War 3, which are supposedly some of this gen's finest showcases. I'm still digging Uncharted 2, but I can feel it won't be long till it's just "another game" to me. I can still see myself playing Mass Effect 1 and 2 years down the line though.
As for the rest of the games you've listed:
- Arkham Asylum was a blast mainly because I'm a Batman-nerd, but gameplay-wise, it's decent as a Metroidvania game. I've seen 'em done way better.
- Heavy Rain was weird as hell and I haven't played a lot of QTE games, so maybe it'll stand out in my memory. Not sure if a lot of people will see it as a classic though.
- inFAMOUS, Assassin's Creed games, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption are all mediocre to me. Openworld sandbox games are bland...they're too focused on "look at all the crap you can do!" without worrying about the execution and actually making it fun to play.
- I'm already over the Bioshock phenomenon (I tried going back to play it again, but it's a very ho-hum experience).
- I still love the crap out of Dead Space, but I can't say objectively whether it'll stick.
And if you like sports games, then your pick of best console gen will probably change every time the next new graphics-powerhouse comes out.
I only really see Portal, the Mass Effect series, and Super Mario Galaxy series as this gen's classics. Haven't played Fallout or Dragon Age: Origins, but from what I've heard and read, they seem to be some of the best WRPGs ever offered.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
The amount of cognitive dissonance going on in this thread is amazing.
Everyones 'best console ever' tends to be the one you remember playing with family/friends as a child, often around the holidays before life became complicated and you grew apart from those you once cared about. Current generation console will take about 10 years to take that place in the hearts of adults who are now kids.
Always-honest
Banned
sure, Ps3 is on its way.
LordAzrael
Banned
Yeah dude, it is hard to believe. I'm the same age as you, and didn't play console games until the ps2. Why? because they didn't interest me. At all. I stuck with the PC for gaming. Look, no one is taking your precious ancient japanese games away from you, its just the market has stated that they aren't fun enough to be profitable. And thats fine with me.ScOULaris said:
Oh, and btw, I don't like shooters or sports games and I still love western games. You sound like a sad Japanophile.
I realize that some of my rant paints me as a Japanophile, but I blame that mostly on the speed with which I wrote it. I didn't take the time to go back and restructure my thoughts, so what you saw posted above was mostly stream-of-consciousness.
The point that I was trying to make is that I miss diversity, and Japanese-developed games used to have a style all their own. I played ton of great Western-developed games throughout my childhood and teen years as well, both on PC and consoles. By no means am I trying to say that Japanese developers are inherently better than their Western counterparts. In fact, these days it seems like they are less focused and just generally less equipped to handle the rigors of developing games for HD consoles. And the worst consequence of that decline is that Japanese developers are now trying to emulate Western-centric games, and poorly at that!
Like someone said earlier, Call of Duty selling millions upon millions of copies has a few downsides. Firstly, it gives publishers a clear indication as to what type of game makes money in today's market: summer blockbuster-style first-person shooters. I personally thought that the first Modern Warfare was a great console shooter. That doesn't mean, however, that I am okay with the vast majority of console games that followed it being uninspired clones of both its gameplay and overall style.
Like someone said a couple posts above me, I like choice and diversity, and I feel like this generation lacks those elements more than any before it. And that's not nostalgia talking. Pick up any literate gaming magazine published in the last year (GamePro or EGM, preferably), and you will see feature articles expressing this exact same sentiment, written by professionals who have watched the industry change from an even more intimate perspective than mere consumers like us.
With all of the pressures and hurdles that came with this generation of game development, combined with the ever-growing population of "hardcore gamers" (the new FPS and sports variety), it has become very difficult to reward diversity, at least in terms of profit.
And I'm not upset that my niche interests have been marginalized by the market. I'm angry because my "niche" interests used to be the interests of the majority of game consumers. When that was the case, innovative, creative, and just outright fun games sold well. Now, if a game that is trying to do something different gets pitched, it generally gets turned down because they won't be able to forecast CoD-level profits.
Again, I am not trying to idealize past console generations. I realize that in the 16-bit, 32-bit, and PS2/Xbox/GC eras there were just as many crappy games and cash-ins as there are now. The main difference was that good games, whether they were new and fresh or building upon established traditions, sold well. Now, polished first-person shooters and sports games sell well, and everything else generally struggles to break even or make a meager (and ultimately unacceptable) profit for the publisher.
All I'm pining for is the return of greater diversity in the games that make it to store shelves. Sure, the indie space is a breath of fresh air, but I want to see an indie level of creativity coming out of a capable, current-gen development house backed by a competent publisher. That's how great, classic games are made. As long as the best-selling games merely copy-and-paste from established templates, there is very little likelihood that any of them will be played or appreciated years down the road. They are destined to be forgotten even by those who enjoy them now. That's the difference between a classic like Super Mario World and Modern Warfare, between Ico and Halo: Reach.
But don't worry... I'm a realist. The consumers dictate the direction of the market, whether they realize it or not, and I have officially been relegated to the category of "niche enthusiast."
The point that I was trying to make is that I miss diversity, and Japanese-developed games used to have a style all their own. I played ton of great Western-developed games throughout my childhood and teen years as well, both on PC and consoles. By no means am I trying to say that Japanese developers are inherently better than their Western counterparts. In fact, these days it seems like they are less focused and just generally less equipped to handle the rigors of developing games for HD consoles. And the worst consequence of that decline is that Japanese developers are now trying to emulate Western-centric games, and poorly at that!
Like someone said earlier, Call of Duty selling millions upon millions of copies has a few downsides. Firstly, it gives publishers a clear indication as to what type of game makes money in today's market: summer blockbuster-style first-person shooters. I personally thought that the first Modern Warfare was a great console shooter. That doesn't mean, however, that I am okay with the vast majority of console games that followed it being uninspired clones of both its gameplay and overall style.
Like someone said a couple posts above me, I like choice and diversity, and I feel like this generation lacks those elements more than any before it. And that's not nostalgia talking. Pick up any literate gaming magazine published in the last year (GamePro or EGM, preferably), and you will see feature articles expressing this exact same sentiment, written by professionals who have watched the industry change from an even more intimate perspective than mere consumers like us.
With all of the pressures and hurdles that came with this generation of game development, combined with the ever-growing population of "hardcore gamers" (the new FPS and sports variety), it has become very difficult to reward diversity, at least in terms of profit.
And I'm not upset that my niche interests have been marginalized by the market. I'm angry because my "niche" interests used to be the interests of the majority of game consumers. When that was the case, innovative, creative, and just outright fun games sold well. Now, if a game that is trying to do something different gets pitched, it generally gets turned down because they won't be able to forecast CoD-level profits.
Again, I am not trying to idealize past console generations. I realize that in the 16-bit, 32-bit, and PS2/Xbox/GC eras there were just as many crappy games and cash-ins as there are now. The main difference was that good games, whether they were new and fresh or building upon established traditions, sold well. Now, polished first-person shooters and sports games sell well, and everything else generally struggles to break even or make a meager (and ultimately unacceptable) profit for the publisher.
All I'm pining for is the return of greater diversity in the games that make it to store shelves. Sure, the indie space is a breath of fresh air, but I want to see an indie level of creativity coming out of a capable, current-gen development house backed by a competent publisher. That's how great, classic games are made. As long as the best-selling games merely copy-and-paste from established templates, there is very little likelihood that any of them will be played or appreciated years down the road. They are destined to be forgotten even by those who enjoy them now. That's the difference between a classic like Super Mario World and Modern Warfare, between Ico and Halo: Reach.
But don't worry... I'm a realist. The consumers dictate the direction of the market, whether they realize it or not, and I have officially been relegated to the category of "niche enthusiast."
TerryLee81
Member
For me they have, yes.
And it's not even close.
Could be because I can't stand Japanese games, I don't know.
And it's not even close.
Could be because I can't stand Japanese games, I don't know.
I think that if people are only looking to the highly budgeted, "AAA" releases, than yeah, you can see an oversaturation in the shooting genre. I'd argue that this hasn't stopped this generation from experiencing a great deal of diversity. Games like Mirror's Edge, Mass Effect, The World Ends With You, and the Assassin's Creed games are examples of games from major developers took some risks and innovated. There are many genres that have experienced a resurgence, including platformers, fighting games, strategy games, and score attack games. RPGs have probably been the loser overall this generation, but even then, there have been plenty of standout titles, including The Witcher, Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls, and a myriad of great portable games.
And, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, console gamers have had more access to indie games than ever before. Call of Duty and its derivatives might be where a lot of the money is right now, but as someone that only plays a couple of shooting games a year, I've been very satisfied with what's available. Since this thread is about whether or not any individual system from this generation can hang with the greats, however, I wouldn't nominate any of this generation's consoles on their own. In order to have access to this level of variety, I both use Steam heavily and own all three consoles.
And, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, console gamers have had more access to indie games than ever before. Call of Duty and its derivatives might be where a lot of the money is right now, but as someone that only plays a couple of shooting games a year, I've been very satisfied with what's available. Since this thread is about whether or not any individual system from this generation can hang with the greats, however, I wouldn't nominate any of this generation's consoles on their own. In order to have access to this level of variety, I both use Steam heavily and own all three consoles.