There's a lot wrong in this post - and i don't have time to respond properly - but i love how you unironically used the Donald Trump "sad" in the first paragraph.
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Can we discuss the MRA documentary "The Red Pill"?
- Thread starter Moff
- Start date
There's a lot wrong in this post - and i don't have time to respond properly - but i love how you unironically used the Donald Trump "sad" in the first paragraph.
There is a nugget of sincere issue discussion in many MRA groups though (not so with red pill/altright so much) and the documentary does a good job of highlighting that - it just fails to see how feminism already meshes with the issues, instead positioning them at odds with one another.
Hey guys I don't know much about this issue but I somehow know what the fuck MGTOW are and I'm new and neutral in the middle man. I have no strong opinions about this except for all these opinions I'm really certain about even though I just started thinking about this topic guys I'm just asking questions and challenging your preconceived notions.
PLZ subscribe to my youtube channel.
PLZ subscribe to my youtube channel.
It's funny, almost everything i hear said by "middle men" is stuff i thought when i was 14 or 15. It's completely undeveloped thinking.
In my case i went to university, inadvertently studied feminism (it was part of a larger course on sci fi), realised how wrong i was (ie the things i first thought were grossly undeveloped and out of date thinking)... And now watch people who haven't thought anything through take the moral high ground
Lets pretend you are honest. Learn.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
I have some experience with people and suicide, and I think you're only halfway there. This anecdotal obviously, but what I learned from a woman I knew who attempted suicide a lot, is that it wasn't about pain. That had nothing at all to do with it. She wanted to leave a beautiful corpse. She wanted to be pretty when she was found, and this is something I've heard from a lot of different angels.
The men, they just want to die, period. They don't give a shit. For some women the desire to die is secondary to leaving a beautiful body. So no guns, no hanging. And let's be real. Slitting wrists is a much more painful way to go than a gunshot.
i think the PoV that feminism and men's rights are inherently opposed to be ridiculous. It my main gripe with the MRA movement.
Feminism has done way more for me as a man than what the MRA's or redpillers have.
Dude...
applying anecdotal evidence across half the world's population is a ridiculous assumption to make.
From my own anecdotal evidence I can say that what you say does not apply to all women at-all.
Feminism has done way more for me as a man than what the MRA's or redpillers have.
Dude...
applying anecdotal evidence across half the world's population is a ridiculous assumption to make.
From my own anecdotal evidence I can say that what you say does not apply to all women at-all.
Precisely.
Miles Quaritch
Member
So...what the fuck is MGTOW?
Men Going Their Own Way. Basically men that have sworn off women/sex/marriage/relationships because women be crazy these days.
This is what it is on paper. What it really is is a bunch of dudes that can't figure out their social lives and are like "I'm doing it on purpose har har!" It's basically The Red Pill but less talk about crushing ass and more talk about their sweet canoe trip they took because they stopped trying to crush ass.
Men who can't form healthy relationships with women making "I never wanted a relationship anyway" their identity
And some, I assume, are good people
Miles Quaritch
Member
Oh.
That's tamer than I thought it would be, but so much more sad.
I wonder though, how much of this stemmed from frustrations they feel from not getting what they feel they are 'owed?' Like...'I was such a nice guy to her but she didn't reward my niceness with sex...'
You know, you could reply and tell me what's wrong or link me something rather than shutting me down like that. You can do it later in the day, there's not a countdown going on. What's even the point of posting? I might as well delete this account and go back to the old fashioned eye to eye chat. Also, I didn't know that "Sad" is now a word copyrighted by Trump. What the actual fuck.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
I figured "some" would be sufficient to make it clear I'm not talking about everyone. I even said myself it's anecdotal. What more do you want?
Anyways, I'm not saying anything about "everyone".
Sorry I don't have time - but others did respond to you more fruitfully
Right, very quick thumbnails:
1. You mention you're new to this, yet you fully support watching this documentary over ones that could provide a counterpoint? It's like saying "i know nothing about world war 2, but watch this documentary about why the nazis are right!" (ridiculous and facetious example but it's a similar rhetorical stance. You admit you're new then only condone one side of the argument.)
2. Feminism's "job" was infinitely larger than addressing the Men's Rights issues mentioned in this documentary. It's already made vast and incredible ground, but there's more to go - and a lot of the remaining work includes a more equal footing in representation between men and women.
3. The issues raised in the doc aren't 'ignored' by feminism, but you're definitely right that they need more recognition and work. Doing so through feminism will help. For instance, as I said to Alienous, in the UK women are being featured far more prominently in adverts for the police, fire services and the military. More "dangerous" jobs. The whole idea that men are 'expected to do dangerous jobs' is being challenged - because it's a structurally sexist idea. And feminism challenges structural sexism.
4. MRA is up there with common coded language for Red Pillers and Alt-Right, which are themselves coded terms for many misogynist and sexist communities. Not always, but in its most intense usage. That's a big, big issue with your post.
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Again, for the record, I couldn't watch the documentary but read all its arguments and watched various breakdowns of it (by people who supported her and disagreed with her). As I've mentioned elsewhere, the issues she raises are valid, but her rhetoric betrays a shallow understanding of modern feminism. If she understood modern feminism better she would know that feminism would help (and indeed already does help) alleviate many of these issues. Feminism isn't "wrong" or a "failure" because these issues exist.
hey_monkey
Banned
In a number of posts in this thread, people have attempted to explain. But you want links? Okay, though frankly the fact that you'll watch a documentary and read other things but apparently not about feminism makes me a bit suspicious. It's not like any of this is hard to find. Further, if you want to discuss, lashing out and assuming people are dismissing this out of hand without knowledge might not be the way, you know?
An older guide to historical contexts of feminism. Much is outdated now but if you want to learn, a progression is always good.
I don't love Everyday Feminism, but this is a not-bad introduction to benefits of feminism that transcend concerns of (cis) women and a basic intro of how feminism attacks patriarchal structures that oppress everyone
Kimberlé Crenshaw's TED talk on intersectionality, the underpinning of (better) contemporary feminist approaches, an approach that weighs factors of race and gender to examine structures of power
Donna Haraway's "Situated Knowledges," which, combined with Crenshaw, makes a great entrypoint into high order thinking about feminism.
So what was the point in the initial statement?
I'm not attacking you or anything, i just dont understand the motivation behind your post.
TBiddy
Member
I'm not quite sure how that relates to my post, to be honest. Feynman was indeed brilliant, but I don't think a quote about proving or disproving hypotheses in science can be applied to feminism, MRA and what have you.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
I reacted to the statement that women try to avoid pain. Because I have some experiences that are very contrary to that. One main experience, but through that, other. A reoccuring theme was to not be ugly when found. I'm not trying to derail anything, but it's a point that I rarely see mentioned, yet one that seemed very dominant in the circles I had to, let's say research, during my own experiences with it. I'm being vague since I don't want to go into detail about who and why.
That was all. And I think it's an incredibly sad thing. That when you're at your last straw, for -some- the need to be pretty when found is so strong, that it dictates the choices made in how you go about doing it. I mean, how do you view your own worth when you think like that?
Last_colossi
Member
The problem is that both sides will always have extremists so I really don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss egalitarianism, especially because there are so many branches of it.
I might give the Doc a watch but it sounds a bit biased.
I might give the Doc a watch but it sounds a bit biased.
Because it is the "feminism have cooties so let's change the name" version of feminism
Last_colossi
Member
What?
Google said:
Google said:
I'm not saying Feminism isn't fantastic but if we're going to use a word that covers all genders and race it should probably be Egalitarianism.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Could have. But I don't have the time to dedicate to such an ignorant post. You pretended to be 'new' to it yet you're name dropping such BS like MGTOW. That's why I said go educate yourself on at least the history before speaking, rather than buying into some propaganda you watched.
I really want examples of other theoretical frameworks that outgrew their roots, making their original name redundant while still retaining it.
Yes, Feminism is bigger than just "women's rights" now, absolutely, but A) the name can't be changed, it just wouldn't work, B) it's OK for it to mean more than "women's rights".
Dice//
Banned
Oh not this again. For the same reason you don't call it "All races matter". It misses the point that one set of people is frequently and routinely the one put at a disadvantage. "Egalitarianism" just doesn't cover it and sucks that women gotta bend because men have slightly hurt egos over the whole thing. Feminism tries to work even for men who don't have to exist solely under the STRONG TOUGH MAN banner that anyone can act the way they want and shouldn't be judged for it.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Egalitarianism implies that men and women's problems are equal.
Last_colossi
Member
I didn't say it wasn't OK, I'm trying to say that it's weird when people lessen the word Egalitarianism when by definition it means the exact thing that most feminists fight for and therefore should be respected a bit more and people shouldn't be thrown shade when using it.
No it implies that men and women should be treated equally and in today's world they aren't, so therefore by being an Egalitarianist you would fight for the rights of those that are being treated less or unequal to those that are not.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Like I said though, the implication of egalitarianism is that equality is sought through a perfect balance between men's problems and women's problems, which makes it an inappropriate term in a society where women's problems have more weight.
Last_colossi
Member
True, Although you can be both a Feminist and an Egalitarianist at the same time, Their goals are the same after all.
MotionBlue
Member
I'd like to see the movie, just to see what the drama is all about.
Its also 80 years old and has been co-opted by corporate and entertainment industries.
Its also 80 years old and has been co-opted by corporate and entertainment industries.
Thank you.
1. I advised to watch this documentary as it addresses issues that are rarely covered, not to dismiss any other point of view expressed by another documentary. GAF is full of feminists who are well aware of its ideas, yet some people here were like "what the hell MRA stands for". I'm only suggesting to listen to another side, it can't hurt. Also, if you do watch this video, you'll see that they don't want to take away anything from women, they're basically saying "look, there's this problem that you're not solving and if you're not going to do it, we are". They're doing a poor job, by the way. And yes, sometimes they go out of their way and call out some points that they consider hypocritical about Feminism, like applying to dangerous jobs. I call bullshit on this specific point but again we're free to agree or not, it's a point of view.
2-3. Sure but you'll have to agree that no such movement (MRA) would exist if Feminism did its job, or at least was trying to. These men, they don't feel like it's happening, They actually feel ignored and mocked. It should not come as a surprise when some feminists like to waste time talking about manspreading or releasing app on Play Store to point out manterrupting. There's Katherine Spillar in the video who states that there's no such thing as male domestic violence. Is this the way to approach someone who's asking for help?
4. The title wasn't the smartest choice (I came across the subreddit after watching this video, ugly stuff right there) but even then, are you ok to downplay their requests because "holy moly they might be alt-right"? I hope not. Just the other day Jimmy Kimmel talked about his son's disease and tried to say how the issue of healthcare should not be a partisan issue. I think this is a similar situation. It's not ok to shout at their faces before they can even make a point, or to block their conferences. This attitude will lead nowhere.
Feminism is a good concept but it has its flaws. There's also this vocal minority who only does damage and it gets the most media coverage. The consequences could not be different than these.
Utopistically speaking, if they worked together, things would go along faster, more easily and more civilly. But for some weird reason, it's a nope.
I'll save these for later, thanks.
You must be a funny guy. Hopefully I'll be half as smart as you are in my next life.
For the record, I said I'm reading and watching a lot from very different sources. No wonder I came across MGTOW, it was inevitable.
koji kabuto
Member
Unlike PUA and MRA i have noticed MGTOW is growing very fast, I believe in the near future we will be facing another flatearth kind of situation where public figures and famous people coming out as MGTOWs or in support of the group.
I have never figured out how to stop MGTOW, if you debate them you will give them wider audience, if you ignore them they will continue to grow on the internet.
I have never figured out how to stop MGTOW, if you debate them you will give them wider audience, if you ignore them they will continue to grow on the internet.
Anton Sugar
Member
Exactly. I don't know if she is duping or was duped, but it's just amateurish research and presentation. The first red flag was "I'm a lifelong feminist and wow, I didn't know there are male-specific gender issues (*cough*caused by patriarchy/toxic masculinity*cough*)". But, she really seems to be willing to turn a blind eye to a lot of the heinous shit that her associates are involved with (she notes in her Sargon interview how, even though A Voice for Men can be outright vile, it basically pushed her down this path).
I listened to half that interview (forgive me, it's 2 hours) and she really just seems in the dark. Sargon is playing coy with his hatred of feminism and claims to not be familiar at all with the MRA movement. Very *interesting*.
In the beginning of that interview, he asks her if she is a feminist and she sorta beats around the bush. It sounded to me like the whole "a feminist is converted to MRA!" is supposed to be a big OMG conclusion that the doc reaches because she wouldn't say outright and said the doc would show her "journey".
Yup--again, maybe she was just straight up duped. After all, there aren't many healthy discussions of men's rights compared to those with toxic origins. Maybe the Red Pill/MRA groups were really the *only* people she felt she could go to for research--which is naive, of course.
In the Sargon interview, she says how all the leaders she worked with (like Elam) were all very hands off and just appreciative that an honest and "balanced" representation of the issue would come out.
I'm having flashbacks to 4chan/reddit Gamergate deceit/"let's be on good behavior" campaigns.
I think this is both a valid and an unfair question to ask. There is some truth there--how many feminists are willing to take time out of fighting for rights for marginalized/underrepresented groups, to fight for rights for the country's dominant gender? I think it's fair to say that, while men's issues certainly fall under feminism, there hasn't been a (healthy/nontoxic) champion for them yet.
All it really takes is someone to step up. MRA "causes" absolutely fall within the feminist wheelhouse. There must be nuance and care in how you approach this thing, though. Many MRA groups, unfortunately, are spawned out of a hatred or contempt for women, let alone feminists. It's their approach to the problems that instantly tainted the movement. That doesn't mean it's not possible.
I would agree that feminism isn't just about equality, except as a sweeping talking point. It's about equality and equity--equity is where the hard work is, as that often involves dismantling existing laws, institutions, etc. that have profited off of unfair starting points.
Re: what's more "important", on face value, I agree (but I also don't think the pay gap is THE feminist issue of our time), but consider that the money we have has a fairly direct correlation to quality of life, especially at the poverty and lower class lines. Your ability to properly feed your children literally has an impact on their brain development and path through life--let alone things like paying for medical bills/health insurance.
Which is why a lot of feminists wonder why we need these "humanist" and "egalitarian" offshoots if it's covered under feminism.
FWIW, using a dictionary definition to define a movement that spans decades and is constantly evolving is not a good tactic. Current wave of feminism is very much focused on equality *and equity* and is incredibly intersectional and examines the relationships between gender, sexuality, income, and ethnicity, to name a few.
Anton Sugar
Member
Several of us *have* watched the documentary and are offering critiques of it. It's a shallow examination of the topic that, purposefully or not, makes the MRA groups (many of whom are known to have scathing opinions on women and feminists) look kind and reasonable vs a few feminists who don't seem to understand what feminism covers beyond "equality for women".
Besada posted a link to an actual productive, healthy group that looks at these issues, but by-and-large, I have yet to find an MRA group whose core tenants, or founder, didn't have misogynistic perspectives.
Here is one of The Red Pill's associate producers:
*That's* why everyone is so quick to dismiss it. The MRA movement is a cesspool, the well is poisoned. Just like with GamerGate, ethics in journalism *is* a valid issue--but that's not what the movement is about and any nobility there is/was in that cause was washed away by the vitriol.
Anton Sugar
Member
This is what I'll never understand.
A huge part of what feminism means to me is "freedom". It means not thinking "women have to be sexy, they have to be housewives, they have to be submissive, they have to..." and instead replacing "have to be" with "can be". It's a choice. If a woman wants to be sexy, wants to be a housewive, wants to be submissive because it gives *her* pleasure--that's fucking awesome, power to them. The key is that it's a choice, guided by what that individual wants (and, ideally, not influenced by a powerful patriarchal society).
So many men dismiss feminism because it means that women can be something they don't want and that women can (gasp) not want to be with them, because those women don't fit into or play to existing gender roles. I can only imagine how emasculating it is for these men to be taught their whole lives (whether incidental via society or directly through shit like TheRedPill) that they have to be masculine in order to get women, only for that notion to be flat out rejected by every successive generation.
radios shipping overview
Member
We had Hillary Clinton give Russia 20 percent of the uranium in our country. You know what uranium is, right? Its this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. But nobody talks about that.
"People don't ask that question, but why was there the Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?"
His father was with Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Oswald's beingyou know, shot. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. What is this, right prior to his being shot, and nobody even brings it up. They don't even talk about that. That was reported, and nobody talks about it. ... What was he doing with Lee Harvey Oswald shortly before the death? Before the shooting? Its horrible.
Stupid rhetorical device used to make it sound like the speaker knows what's really going on and the media are telling you lies - i.e. to delegitimize alternate points of view.
Anton Sugar
Member
Jaye's and the MRA community's response to criticism is Trump-esque, as well. "It's an underhanded campaign by feminists! They hate that we're exposing the truth! Feminism is FAKE GENDER EQUALITY!"
Pivoting to blaming smear campaigns is the oldest tactic in the book when defending a shitty product. See: shitty games, shitty movies, etc.
Dice//
Banned
Much better said (and expanded) from what I did -- thanks.
But yeah. Men don't have to play this weird alpha/beta game they've made up — geeky 'beta' guys date and the 'attractive alphas' have problems too. I've seen posts where they talk about hitting the gym and reading books to improve themselves or being hygienic (good advice for anyone, really), but they do it with some weird SMV (....sexual market value....yeah) goal. No gym or book is going to cure a shitty attitude.
There's a small level of irony that if they spent less time micro-analysing these fascinating female creatures (like talking about their SMV scores, or talking about women like "I met this 8/10 -- with NO MAKEUP", or playing "the game") they might just have an easier time around them. Maybe shit doesn't work out because it doesn't work out; sometimes the girl does something stupid in a relationship (gasp!) and sometimes the guy does.
On a more basic and practical level: I don't like The Red Pill because it talks about weird, stats-less pseudo-social-science. "Red Pill Theory" is LARGELY anecdotal evidence, and that's never going to interest me. What's worse is that, YES, if women DO choose partners because of men's social status, they don't ask WHY and simply seem to blame it as an inherent flaw in the XX chromosome.
I agree. Men need help, and FINE if they don't want to use the feminism label or try to go with its basic ideas, but the Red Pill will NOT help. It perpetuates the stereotypes to an even darker angle under a guise of help.
AlimNassor
Banned
They really shouldn't. Women and Men have separate issues but, they could easily find common ground to work on when their interests align. Unfortunately the MRA movement has been or probably has been hijacked by TRP's and alt-right loons that aren't offering real solutions.
Men need help but, TRP is Toxic Masculinity in it's purest form.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
If there really were a documentary/group actively talking about how patriarchy/toxic masculinity culture hurts men, I'd be right there. As a not-particularly-masculine* man I'd love to hear more.
From the sounds of this (no, not paying) this seems to be all about blaming feminists for these guys' problems.
* And yet never have had issues with the opposite sex once I got started.... hmmm.
From the sounds of this (no, not paying) this seems to be all about blaming feminists for these guys' problems.
* And yet never have had issues with the opposite sex once I got started.... hmmm.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Men's right activists live in a fantasy world where women are the dominating and men are oppressed when that is not true, even today.
I haven't been able to see it yet, but I think you'd be interested in The Mask You Live In.