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[SxP]

You can't just talk about the large studios here. Capcom have always been known to rehash their old franchises as they're popular. NSMB2 is a bad example too as the gameplay is amazing, fair enough it's another sequel and isn't exactly a risk but you know for a fact the gameplay is great so it doesn't matter.

Now look at EA, Activision, Microsoft Game Studios and Epic. What have they done recently that has actually been anything but an interactive movie? (minus Mirror's Edge as that was actually good).

You contradict yourself.

 

[waypoetic]

No. Western games are better in every way.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

And so this is why Japan is getting it's ass handed to it by the West? Sssuuureee...

 

[StayDead]

I wouldn't class Diablo 3 as an interactive movie.

That's a Blizzard made game. Sure they're both owned by Vivendi but Activision and Blizzard are still separate companies when they make their games.

I edited my post before as I struggled to think of small development studios in the west. Most of them have gone out of business or just haven't made anything worthwhile. I'm not counting Indie devs here either.

 

[GoofsterStud]

You can't just talk about the large studios here, loads of smaller Japanese devs like Marvelous have been making very good games this generation across both consoles and handhelds. Capcom have always been known to rehash their old franchises as they're popular. NSMB2 is a bad example too as the gameplay is amazing, fair enough it's another sequel and isn't exactly a risk but you know for a fact the gameplay is great so it doesn't matter.

Western indie games are taboo for your argument. I get it... No Torchlight, not Orcs Must Die, and more of my favorite games.... They don't exist if you can prove a point. I get it.

 

[Mandoric]

As for the thread topic, if we want to soothe GoofsterStud's glowing inferiority complex asspain, maybe we can put it this way?

American games currently focus on letting you do something that looks and sounds awesome, with the risk of the actual interaction not being very engagingly game-y.
Japanese games traditionally focus on letting the player repeat an engaging mechanic, with the risk of a nonsensical or incongruous narrative component.

 

[Chinner]

i find that western developers are better at making mature games while japan is better at making games for children.

 

[tkscz]

Damn you beat me to it.

 

[GoofsterStud]

As for the thread topic, if we want to soothe GoofsterStud's glowing inferiority complex asspain, maybe we can put it this way?

American games currently focus on letting you do something that looks and sounds awesome, with the risk of the actual interaction not being very engagingly game-y.
Japanese games traditionally focus on letting the player repeat an engaging mechanic, with the risk of a nonsensical or incongruous narrative component.

Just like Bastion. <3

Keep going.

That doesn't mean these games don't do something new, or push the envelope. They are, just not in the way you like.

Don't make me pull out the Fez card...lol He is just as arrogant as Capcom currently is.

Note when your talking innovation, and something doesn't innovate...than don't talk about it in the first place.

 

[patapuf]

You can't just talk about the large studios here, loads of smaller Japanese devs like Marvelous have been making very good games this generation across both consoles and handhelds. Capcom have always been known to rehash their old franchises as they're popular. NSMB2 is a bad example too as the gameplay is amazing, fair enough it's another sequel and isn't exactly a risk but you know for a fact the gameplay is great so it doesn't matter.

don't only talk about the large western studios either. There's tons of innovative western games made by smaller studios. Especially on PC (and on XBLA and PSN) there's no lack of innovation in all kinds of genres and games.

there's pletny of western sequels that are great as well and pose no risk to produce.

The AAA stuff japan produces is just as stale and iterative as their western counterparts.

 

[Shard]

Yea, sad to say tht thsi can be debunked with two words, Square Enix, so it really does depend on the dev on both sides of the ocean.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

People aren't using FFXIII as an example of graphics over gameplay are they? FFXIII has the best combat in an RPG this side of Xenoblade.

Graphics over story, sure. Graphics over gameplay? You haven't played it.

 

[whalleywhat]

I wouldn't class Diablo 3 as an interactive movie.

No, it's a game where you click on skeletons.

People aren't using FFXIII as an example of graphics over gameplay are they? FFXIII has the best combat in an RPG this side of Xenoblade.

Graphics over story, sure. Graphics over gameplay? You haven't played it.

If you want to define gameplay as solely the battle system, sure, but it's pretty clear that FFXIII's direction was largely defined by its artists.

 

[Malvingt2]

Xenoblade. All I have to say.. I agree Capcom..

 

[Riposte]

Now we are swinging around the word "innovation".

Any time I put any intelligence into a thread, it seems to just get dumber.

 

[1-D_FTW]

This being gaf, I expect a larger than expected number to say he's right. But it's a ridiculous statement and shows just why Japan has fallen so far behind. The gap between western gameplay and Japan gameplay is tilted in the west's favor by an even larger gap than the graphics gap.

Sure, Japan has a number of franchises that aren't outdated and horrible (and can compete with anything the west can throw at it), but they're certainly no leader in this category.

EDIT: On reflection a bit, it's probably because I'm a PC gamer and get to experience the whole range of western developer's works. The racing sim category, for example, is absolutely owned by the western PC developers. I just finished arriving LTTP on Witcher 1 and it's blown me away like I can't remember. It's been many generations since a Japanase developer has produced an RPG that's had the impact that the Witcher had on me.

 

[Spinluck]

While it is a generalization, there is truth to it. It's all about flashy graphics in the west, as demonstrated by so many threads and comments on this forum. We have super pretty games like Uncharted that have no depth in their gameplay and complete gameplay turds like Skyrim winning GOTY awards everywhere. Then there are Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls, which murder any western RPG in the gameplay department, but get critized for their visuals.
This is why I can't get excited for games like The Last of Us or Beyond, because I can already see the flat gameplay and corridor levels that give the player no freedom. Sadly this seems to be a trend for many many big releases.

I don't think it's a coincidence either that most great action and fighting games are Japanese.

But hey, this is coming from a guy who got so bored by Uncharted 3 that he turned it off and started playing Chrono Trigger on his handheld with super shitty graphics, so what do I know ;-)

How does The Last Of Us demonstrate flat gameplay?

EDIT: ON TOPIC: Generally speaking, I agree with them. But overall, with a few exceptions from the East, the West has been making better games as of late.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Hard to argue with this. I mean all you have to do is compare Dragon’s Dogma to Skyrim.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Hard to argue with this. I mean all you have to do is compare Dragon&#8217;s Dogma to Skyrim.

I'd rather compare GW2...

Note: To be honest I played Skyrim a lot longer than I played Dragon Dogma. Yes the combat was better in Dragon Dogma, but it wasn't as enraging to me. It also didn't have the wonderful mods you find in the PC version that really enhance Skyrim. Why aren't we allowed to have different opinions, and be happy about it? It's great that Western developers got Eastern developers to take a chance and try to imitate Western successes with there own spin.

I love it.

 

[joetachi]

i find that western developers are better at making mature games while japan is better at making games for children.

And by mature you mean games for 15 year olds, then yeah.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

He's right, but said it incorrectly. As a rule (obviously not 100% binding), Japanese games are bottom up (gameplay systems/mechanics first, presentation built on top of that) where Western devs are top-down, where you come up with the presentation elements (story, characters, graphics) first and then build mechanics around that. Neither is inherently better or worse than the other.

A great topical example of this is Smash Bros and Sony All Star Battle. SSB was prototyped and playable long before they settled on the idea of using Nintendo characters, whereas with PSASBR they obviously started with the idea of a mascot brawler and worked their way down to the mechanics.

No he´s not right. Shooter like COD, and BF focus a lot on gameplay. Shooters in general are all about gameplay.

I strongly disagree, Japanese games have consistently maintained a superior art style, and the gameplay has been innovative and refined this generation.

Certainly if you compare the large Japanese studios to the large Western ones this generation, the Japanese have been taking more risks with companies like Atlus leading the way. Meanwhile we have EA pumping out sequel after sequel, and franchises like Call of Duty and Elder Scrolls with gameplay becoming more and more dumbed down.

Japanese devs have superior art design? They have nothing on Sony Santa Monica and God Of War when it comes to art, and detail.

 

[Finaika]

And by mature you mean games for 15 year olds, then yeah.

I don't think 15 year olds would enjoy games like Heavy Rain.

 

[StayDead]

No he´s not right. Shooter like COD, and BF focus a lot on gameplay. Shooters in general are all about gameplay.



Japanese devs have superior art design? They have nothing on Sony Santa Monica and God Of War when it comes to art, and detail.

I guess I could see why you think that, but I honestly don't agree.

 

[Mandoric]

This being gaf, I expect a larger than expected number to say he's right. But it's a ridiculous statement and shows just why Japan has fallen so far behind. The gap between western gameplay and Japan gameplay is tilted in the west's favor by an even larger gap than the graphics gap.

Sure, Japan has a number of franchises that aren't outdated and horrible (and can compete with anything the west can throw at it), but they're certainly no leader in this category.

See, the problem is that "outdated and horrible" only applies if you like to push A to awesome and want a pass on actual winner-loser gaminess, and he's saying... That Japan tends to build around winner-loser gaminess and the US tends to build around chances to push A to awesome.

Of course there's exceptions on both sides and times and genres where you can flip it around, but as a general trend he's damn right because mainstream, AAA American development has gone off the deep end compared to anything else, Japan, Europe, or the same companies' products a decade ago.

Edit: Shit, I'll even say within patch levels of individual games. Terraria, for example, is an American game that I have played the everloving shit out of.
Before the most recent patch, it was an indie game churned out on a quick budget and built around a fun, addictive dig-hoard-upgrade-dig faster mechanic.
After the most recent patch, lots of branching endgame content and chances to be flashy-awesome were added.
My group tore through the first part of the endgame content, which involved digging more and hoarding more to dig even faster.
But the actual new boss fights? The chance to take down monsters with 10x more HP and glowing robot body parts using weapons that did 10x more damage?
Meh, we ended up restarting. Repeatedly, every time we got to that point.

 

[GeekyDad]

God, don't take Ninja Theory as a poster child for Western Development.

I think they're actually a pretty suitable poster child. Glitchy, buggy games are what I'm used to from western developers. And in spite of how the GAF collective continues to claim a stance on "graphics don't matter," their obsession with visuals is obvious on this site. Western companies are all too happy to cater to dudebro demands.

That's not, in any way, an argument on behalf of Japanese developers. The market's flooded with a glut of shitty games released on both sides of the sea. But perhaps this is Capcom's way of saying, "If DMC turns out like shit, well, it isn't really our fault."

 

[Himself]

As a mostly broad generalization, this is mostly true.

 

[GoofsterStud]

I think they're actually a pretty suitable poster child. Glitchy, buggy games are what I'm used to from western developers. And in spite of how the GAF collective continues to claim a stance on "graphics don't matter," their obsession with visuals is obvious on this site. Western companies are all too happy to cater to dudebro demands.

That's not, in any way, an argument on behalf of Japanese developers. The market's flooded with a glut of shitty games released on both sides of the sea. But perhaps this is Capcom's way of saying, "If DMC turns out like shit, well, it isn't really out fault."

UHG we can just as easily pick out bad Eastern Developers, and horrible Eastern games. Western games are the only ones buggy this generation.

 

[MoogleWizard]

I don't think 15 year olds would enjoy games like Heavy Rain.

I think calling Heavy Rain a game would be a stretch. QTE wannabe movie fits much better.

 

[Spinluck]

No he´s not right. Shooter like COD, and BF focus a lot on gameplay. Shooters in general are all about gameplay.



Japanese devs have superior art design? They have nothing on Sony Santa Monica and God Of War when it comes to art, and detail.

Lets not forget Rayman Origins and Legends.

The most beautiful art I've seen in a 2D platformer iin a lonoonnnnnng time.

 

[Meccanical]

People aren't using FFXIII as an example of graphics over gameplay are they? FFXIII has the best combat in an RPG this side of Xenoblade.

Graphics over story, sure. Graphics over gameplay? You haven't played it.

Yeah, once you unlock it after 20 hours.

Screw that, its a fine example.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

No he´s not right. Shooter like COD, and BF focus a lot on gameplay. Shooters in general are all about gameplay.

In that very same post you quoted I said that wasn't a hard rule?

Also, Mass Effect is a TPS. How do you suppose they designed it? Built the prototype first and came up with the rest of it later, or top down ie we want to make a space opera what kind of mechanics can we use?

 

[AppleMIX]

I disagree, some developers do but not all.

It only matters what the final product is like, not the process.

 

[joetachi]

I don't think 15 year olds would enjoy games like Heavy Rain.

Its hard to just enjoy Heavy Rain.

 

[BlazinAm]

I think a lot of Japanese developers start off with a more general framework of what their game will be, I wouldn't say that their games provide a better gameplay experience if we are talking about console gaming.

I agree with the sentiment that the west starts off with visuals, but that hard to say if that impacts the gameplay element. (People know for the beginning of development if their game is going to be a linear experience so that argument is moot.)

If you want talk about quality gameplay experiences west got Japan beat by a long shot, but there is less content from Japan, but more diverse I'll get them that.

 

[ringwaldhaze]

UHG we can just as easily pick out bad Eastern Developers, and horrible Eastern games. Western games are the only ones buggy this generation.

Wasn't the port outsourced to a Western studio?

edit: Your post was originally about the Silent Hill HD Collection.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

I think calling Heavy Rain a game would be a stretch. QTE wannabe movie fits much better.

So what would you call Visual Novels then?

The problem is that the West and the East are much bigger than a handful of developers, so it's easy to pick out examples that contradict any sweeping statements you make about how awesome/shit a nation is at making games.

 

[patapuf]

I guess I could see why you think that, but I honestly don't agree.

MP is just as valid a gameplay venue as SP, actually well thought out systems are probably more important in MP games than SP.

 

[SmokedMeat]

this isn't new information, see every pathetic HD twin console war thread, it's always about graphics.

Funny, that's all I see in the PC threads is how awesome the graphics are. Cancel your Dark Souls preorder guys because the resolution and frame rate aren't good enough.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Aren't they supposed to wait until after the game flops before they start paying their Western development partners backhanded compliments?

 

[AppleMIX]

Funny, that's all I see in the PC threads is how awesome the graphics are. Cancel your Dark Souls preorder guys because the resolution and frame rate aren't good enough.

The reason why it is a issue is because it lacks features that are standard for the platform.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Lets not forget Rayman Origins and Legends.

The most beautiful art I've seen in a 2D platformer iin a lonoonnnnnng time.

Amazingly enough, I'm pretty sure Rayman uses 3D assets too. Because it works flawlessly in 3d with 3D vision. And I'm pretty sure 3d vision doesn't work with 2D (since no other 2D game works with it). It's amazing how well western developers have gotten at making 3D look like beautiful hand drawn 2D.

Funny, that's all I see in the PC threads is how awesome the graphics are. Cancel your Dark Souls preorder guys because the resolution and frame rate aren't good enough.

Spoken like a true console warrior who doesn't get it and secretly lurks threads to try and convince himself he's not missing anything because he can't buy a gaming PC.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

The comment about Diablo being a game about clicking on skeletons got me thinking, a lot of western games feel like gameplay is simply 'clicking' on things (ie Skyrim combat). I wonder if that's because western dev descended from PCs (mouse) whereas Japanese dev from arcades?

 

[Finaika]

Aren't they supposed to wait until after the game flops before they start paying their Western development partners backhanded compliments?

That was a compliment?

I thought the term graphics whore was bad.

 

[AppleMIX]

The comment about Diablo being a game about clicking on skeletons got me thinking, a lot of western games feel like gameplay is simply 'clicking' on things (ie Skyrim combat). I wonder if that's because western dev descended from PCs (mouse) whereas Japanese dev from arcades?

You could literally describe any game as "just pressing buttons".

 

[Delusibeta]

If we're talking really broadly, I think Capcom has a point here. That said, you can find a half dozen exceptions for both sides easily, so it really doesn't stand up to much.

 

[Pyrrhus]

That was a compliment?

I thought the term graphics whore was bad.

Backhanded compliment. Meaning he essentially said, "Yeah, Westerners sure are great at ignoring the important things in game development, unlike us Japanese."

 

[Haunted]

Then again, Japanese games this gen have been lackluster in both the gameplay and the graphics department.

Of course there are exceptions, and there are still some genres where the Japanese can compete and produce some of the best games, but it's a steep decline we've seen over these last years.

 

[faridmon]

You have neither working with most of western companies, Capcom.

 

[SmokedMeat]

The reason why it is a issue is because it lacks features that are standard for the platform.

Bullshit. The OP is all about the resoluion not being good enough and the frame rate being 30fps.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Bullshit. The OP is all about the resoluion not being good enough and the frame rate being 30fps.

Variable resolution and frame rate limited only by the power of your machine are standards for the platform.