• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos

Status
Not open for further replies.
What. He didn't make that decision. He was going after him at the end of Winter Soldier, but they could never track him down. He was in hiding. Cap didn't decide to "let him go free", he just didn't want to kill a guy who he knew was clearly not himself. It's hard to win a fight when one side is trying to kill you but you don't want to kill them. So he took the L, hoping it would make Bucky snap out of it.

But the point is that he didn't stop him because he was his friend. He did make a decision to stop fighting him and let Bucky knock him out. The problem I have with Cap is he comes off too perfect. He does whatever he wants regardless of the obvious warning signs and never really seems to pay for his decisions. Unlike Tony who's mistakes seems to magnified by those around him including his own team. Ultron was a huge example. He did whatever he wanted and the team completely gave him shit for it. Yeah it was a bad decision (although ultimately it may be one that in the end more then makes up with it due to vision being born) but everyone, especially cap, let him know how badly he screwed up. Cap never gets that flack for the choices he made or they never blow up in his face the way Tony's mistakes do. No matter how bone headed they were. Especially in this movie.
 
Avengers helped initiate the invasion whaaaaa? Maybe you want to take a step back and actually think about it.

Who had the teserract at the start? SHIELD
Who opened the portal for Loki? SHIELD
Who gave Loki the power to let in the Chitauri invasion? Thanos

Yeah, I don't see how Avengers were the one who started anything other than Thor throwing Loki into space.

Also, did you forget what happened if the Avengers wasn't there to defend NY? USA nukes the whole place because MURICA. No one but idiots would trust governments like that.

Hawkeye helped Loki steal the Teserract, and Hulk helped Loki escape. Yes, both had their minds fucked with...but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an investigation.

And it was the World Security Council that ordered the nuke, not the US government directly.

And again, I'm talking about how people in this universe might view these events. Not people watching the movies.
 
I don't get what oversight would mean for the Avengers in this Universe. I mean, I get the part where they will be told where to go and what to do, but how are they not already accountable for their failures? They pay for the damages and help out in the aftermath, they struggle with their losses and take care of their rogues.

How does them being run by UN (which has its own glaring issues with accountability and oversight) help them be more accountable?
 
That was great. I love Paul Rudd so much.

Also love how divisive civil war always makes people.

Was really expecting a big death. The last fight seemed like it was changed in some way to facilitate that. That or I'm expecting too much similarity to the comics.
 
He successfully managed to guilt trip people into agreeing with him because that's what Tony does.

There was nobody on Captain America's team who wanted to side with him politically. It consisted of Captain America's best friends, a liability, a person who got that liability's brother killed, and a Captain America fanboy.

It was #TeamRationality vs #TeamBucky.
 
I actually agree with Matt. The Avengers were definitely "responsible" for the invasion in the first movie. I've been of that opinion since day one. The opening of the film made it clear that they knew they were dealing with something far more powerful than they had any business with, and the amount of security they had was totally inadequate. Members of the Avengers under SHIELD, including the founder of the Avengers Initiative - Nick Fury, are to blame to the cube being taken and for Hawkeye and the professor being mind controlled in the first place. They put the entire world at risk.

Later on, after coming together, the Avengers made a total shitshow of capturing Loki and letting him mess with them so easily that things literally fell into pieces. They should not have had the staff exposed. They should not be experimenting with it. They put themselves in danger and hence put the entire world in danger.

This is all BEFORE the alien invasion even happened. If they had been more responsible about it from the start, maybe there would be no invasion at all. Maybe if Thor didn't let his little family feud spiral out of control, Loki wouldn't even have the motivation to want to do all that shit. This all comes down to escalation. The actions of these characters and their interaction with the world has a ripple effect that is making the world more dangerous exponentially. In fact, this is even a theme that is touched on by Vision himself in Civil War.
 
I don't get what oversight would mean for the Avengers in this Universe. I mean, I get the part where they will be told where to go and what to do, but how are they not already accountable for their failures? They pay for the damages and help out in the aftermath, they struggle with their losses and take care of their rogues.

How does them being run by UN (which has its own glaring issues with accountability and oversight) help them be more accountable?

It means that a handful of unelected, unaccountable people without any legal authority whatsoever can't make massive decisions on their own that effect the entire planet.
 
What. He didn't make that decision. He was going after him at the end of Winter Soldier, but they could never track him down. He was in hiding. Cap didn't decide to "let him go free", he just didn't want to kill a guy who he knew was clearly not himself. It's hard to win a fight when one side is trying to kill you but you don't want to kill them. So he took the L, hoping it would make Bucky snap out of it.

Sick and tired of #TeamIron fanboys trying to slander Steve Rogers, just to deflect away from the incompetence of Tony Stark. :)
Is not hypocritical to point of Tony's flaws and completely be blindsided to Steves? Isnt the point of the movie exactly just that, that Steve has this goodie two shoes persona that can make him get away with murder
 
I actually agree with Matt. The Avengers were definitely "responsible" for the invasion in the first movie. I've been of that opinion since day one. The opening of the film made it clear that they knew they were dealing with something far more powerful than they had any business with, and the amount of security they had was totally inadequate. Members of the Avengers under SHIELD, including the founder of the Avengers Initiative - Nick Fury, are to blame to the cube being taken and for Hawkeye and the professor being mind controlled in the first place. They put the entire world at risk.

Later on, after coming together, the Avengers made a total shitshow of capturing Loki and letting him mess with them so easily that things literally fell into pieces. They should not have had the staff exposed. They should not be experimenting with it. They put themselves in danger and hence put the entire world in danger.

This is all BEFORE the alien invasion even happened. If they had been more responsible about it from the start, maybe there would be no invasion at all. Maybe if Thor didn't let his little family feud spiral out of control, Loki wouldn't even have the motivation to want to do all that shit. This all comes down to escalation. The actions of these characters and their interaction with the world has a ripple effect that is making the world more dangerous exponentially. In fact, this is even a theme that is touched on by Vision himself in Civil War.
I was actually trying to just keep my arguments to actions taken by the Avengers members that directly helped Loki & co., but yeah, the Avengers and SHIELD messed up every single step of the way in the buildup to the invasion.
 
Hawkeye helped Loki steal the Teserract, and Hulk helped Loki escape. Yes, both had their minds fucked with...but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an investigation.

And it was the World Security Council that ordered the nuke, not the US government directly.

And again, I'm talking about how people in this universe might view these events. Not people watching the movies.

And who's investigating, the UN?
And what is the World Security Council, something like the UN?

If the UN is going to be holding back the Avengers on, let's say, the Crossbones incident because "it's too populated an area", what kind of biological terror could Crossbones do on the World?
Your thinking is exactly why Cap is right. The world is wrong and the Avengers needs no oversight. There wouldn't be a world left if the Avengers weren't in those events.
 
I don't get what oversight would mean for the Avengers in this Universe. I mean, I get the part where they will be told where to go and what to do, but how are they not already accountable for their failures? They pay for the damages and help out in the aftermath, they struggle with their losses and take care of their rogues.

How does them being run by UN (which has its own glaring issues with accountability and oversight) help them be more accountable?
That is what I am asking about the ACCORDS.
Some have stated that is them basically being the puppet of the UN but isn't that one way to view it? The movie doesn't exactly explain what the Accords are for, is it the Avengers becoming a public entity or a private entity answerable to the public?
 
I actually agree with Matt. The Avengers were definitely "responsible" for the invasion in the first movie. I've been of that opinion since day one. The opening of the film made it clear that they knew they were dealing with something far more powerful than they had any business with, and the amount of security they had was totally inadequate. Members of the Avengers under SHIELD, including the founder of the Avengers Initiative - Nick Fury, are to blame to the cube being taken and for Hawkeye and the professor being mind controlled in the first place. They put the entire world at risk.

Huh? The Avengers weren't even formed at that point (except for Cap, BW and Hawkeye), only after Loki showed up in Germany.
 
But the point is that he didn't stop him because he was his friend. He did make a decision to stop fighting him and let Bucky knock him out. The problem I have with Cap is he comes off too perfect. He does whatever he wants regardless of the obvious warning signs and never really seems to pay for his decisions. Unlike Tony who's mistakes seems to magnified by those around him including his own team. Ultron was a huge example. He did whatever he wanted and the team completely gave him shit for it. Yeah it was a bad decision (although ultimately it may be one that in the end more then makes up with it due to vision being born) but everyone, especially cap, let him know how badly he screwed up. Cap never gets that flack for the choices he made or they never blow up in his face the way Tony's mistakes do. No matter how bone headed they were especially in this movie.

It was because he was his friend that Cap knew that Bucky was not himself. I mean that's what it comes down to. He's not doing it just because he is -his friend- but because Cap's friends are not bad people. That's how he chooses his friends. It's not that he is perfect, it's that he is a good man. That doesn't mean perfection, it just means having a strong moral compass. And I absolutely agree with this assessment that Tony gets more shit than Steve in this comparison. But I think there's also a reason for that. Tony does things for the wrong reasons and they blow up on him. Steve does things for the right reasons so even if something blows up, people tend to be more forgiving.

I disagree that things never really explode in Steve's face. Something literally did in this film. What happened with Crossbones is a HUGE blunder and people actually died. It's true that the movie doesn't dwell on it for as long as it probably should, but I think it is felt. Steve blames himself more than anyone else, so no one else needs to beat him up about it more.

Furthermore, I think that it is interesting that you brought up the issue of Bucky being a case that everyone is so forgiving about in the end. Because in Ed Brubaker's run of Captain America, after Steve dies and Bucky takes over as Captain America, that actually becomes a huge crux for Baron Zemo's motive when he returns to create chaos by leaking out the Winter Soldier's crimes to the world. He wants accountability and he is pissed off that when villains do bad things and then try to reform and integrate in the world, people don't give them that chance or benefit of the doubt, but when someone like Bucky tries it, he is accepted with open arms because he was the friend of Steve Rogers. So he basically forces the issue, turns the world against Bucky as Captain America, and makes him stand trial for his crimes as the Winter Soldier. It was a really cool arc.

Huh? The Avengers weren't even formed at that point (except for Cap, BW and Hawkeye), only after Loki showed up in Germany.

Yes but they're still people. They were individuals first before they became Avengers, and their shortcomings as people apply. They messed up before they became Avengers, when they became Avengers, and after they became Avengers. So the people who are standing behind Captain America when he says "the safest hands are still our own" are basically a bunch of fuckups who have been fucking up before they were even known as Avengers.

That's a point I absolutely agree with, and it lends weight to the oversight argument. But honestly, when Captain America speaks, I listen, so #TeamCap all the way! :D
 
And who's investigating, the UN?
And what is the World Security Council, something like the UN?

If the UN is going to be holding back the Avengers on, let's say, the Crossbones incident because "it's too populated an area", what kind of biological terror could Crossbones do on the World?
Your thinking is exactly why Cap is right. The world is wrong and the Avengers needs no oversight. There wouldn't be a world left if the Avengers weren't in those events.

You aren't actually making an argument about the practical and ethical implications of such an unregulated and unauthorized organization. You are just making emotional statements and creating straw-man scenarios.
 
This movie did make me wonder, why aren't there more super heroes that specifically specialize in rescue and crowd control/helping people. I mean sure lots of super heroes save people but they save people through fighting the enemy until they're no longer a threat. For teams you'd think there'd be some super medic or force field user who stays in the back trying to only prevent civilian casualties. The iron legion felt like a good right step but ultimately that failed. Tony should give some suits to a handful of people and have them stay back as support.
 
I actually agree with Matt. The Avengers were definitely "responsible" for the invasion in the first movie. I've been of that opinion since day one. The opening of the film made it clear that they knew they were dealing with something far more powerful than they had any business with, and the amount of security they had was totally inadequate. Members of the Avengers under SHIELD, including the founder of the Avengers Initiative - Nick Fury, are to blame to the cube being taken and for Hawkeye and the professor being mind controlled in the first place. They put the entire world at risk.

Later on, after coming together, the Avengers made a total shitshow of capturing Loki and letting him mess with them so easily that things literally fell into pieces. They should not have had the staff exposed. They should not be experimenting with it. They put themselves in danger and hence put the entire world in danger.

This is all BEFORE the alien invasion even happened. If they had been more responsible about it from the start, maybe there would be no invasion at all. Maybe if Thor didn't let his little family feud spiral out of control, Loki wouldn't even have the motivation to want to do all that shit. This all comes down to escalation. The actions of these characters and their interaction with the world has a ripple effect that is making the world more dangerous exponentially. In fact, this is even a theme that is touched on by Vision himself in Civil War.

Loki purposefully let himself get captured to mess with SHIELD, if you forgot, and Thanos would be on his way to Earth to claim the red and blue infinity stones anyway.

There is DEFINITELY an invasion.

You aren't actually making an argument about the practical and ethical implications of such an unregulated and unauthorized organization. You are just making emotional statements and creating straw-man scenarios.

And you're just making insults because you have no argument. You also have no idea what the UN actually does in this world or in the MCU.
 
Furthermore, I think that it is interesting that you brought up the issue of Bucky being a case that everyone is so forgiving about in the end. Because in Ed Brubaker's run of Captain America, after Steve dies and Bucky takes over as Captain America, that actually becomes a huge crux for Baron Zemo's motive when he returns to create chaos by leaking out the Winter Soldier's crimes to the world. He wants accountability and he is pissed off that when villains do bad things and then try to reform and integrate in the world, people don't give them that chance or benefit of the doubt, but when someone like Bucky tries it, he is accepted with open arms because he was the friend of Steve Rogers. So he basically forces the issue, turns the world against Bucky as Captain America, and makes him stand trial for his crimes as the Winter Soldier. It was a really cool arc.

That sounds really interesting. I should look it up.
 
Something that keeps getting to me was Tony and Pepper separating. I mean, after everything that happened since the beginning. The dream is dead. :(
 
But Cap's whole thing is "politicians have agendas and we don't need them to dictate our own" meanwhile his entire agenda is "No fuck you save Bucky." So Cap is making Tony's point. I dunno I was Team Iron Man all the way Cap felt like an asshat to me, especially not telling Tony about Bucky.

Anyway, loved the movie overall. Best part was Panther, as they fucking nailed him. The silent steps, the almost primal fighting style, the accent, the attitude, it was all so perfect. Spidey was perfect too, but I'm not the biggest Spidey fan so I just enjoyed him, he wasn't a favorite.

Also, I know everyone loved the airport sequence, but Tony vs. Cap and Bucky was the highlight for me. It just felt raw and real and had emotional weight to it, with no one liners or humor, just two friends beating the shit out of each other. As good as the airport battle was the stakes didn't feel super high. I bet the next Iron Man suit has more than one arc reactor though.
 
Loki purposefully let himself get captured to mess with SHIELD, if you forgot, and Thanos would be on his way to Earth to claim the red and blue infinity stones anyway.

There is DEFINITELY an invasion.

Thanos isn't getting off his space chair. What are you smoking? He couldn't even be bothered to get off his space chair to get a stone which was a stone's throw (lol) away from his location during GotG. He sent Ronan instead, and what a sham that was. If Thanos gave a shit, there wouldn't be all these movies. Lol.
 
Thanos isn't getting off his space chair. What are you smoking? He couldn't even be bothered to get off his space chair to get a stone which was a stone's throw (lol) away from his location during GotG. He sent Ronan instead, and what a sham that was. If Thanos gave a shit, there wouldn't be all these movies. Lol.

Doesn't Thanos get cramps from sitting all the time? :P
 
There was nobody on Captain America's team who wanted to side with him politically. It consisted of Captain America's best friends, a liability, a person who got that liability's brother killed, and a Captain America fanboy.

It was #TeamRationality vs #TeamBucky.

Hardly. Not even Tony believed in what he was spouting but just can't deal with the responsibility he has as Iron Man. He's #TeamGuilt.
 
But Cap's whole thing is "politicians have agendas and we don't need them to dictate our own" meanwhile his entire agenda is "No fuck you save Bucky." So Cap is making Tony's point. I dunno I was Team Iron Man all the way Cap felt like an asshat to me, especially not telling Tony about Bucky.

Anyway, loved the movie overall. Best part was Panther, as they fucking nailed him. The silent steps, the almost primal fighting style, the accent, the attitude, it was all so perfect. Spidey was perfect too, but I'm not the biggest Spidey fan so I just enjoyed him, he wasn't a favorite.

Also, I know everyone loved the airport sequence, but Tony vs. Cap and Bucky was the highlight for me. It just felt raw and real and had emotional weight to it, with no one liners or humor, just two friends beating the shit out of each other. As good as the airport battle was the stakes didn't feel super high. I bet the next Iron Man suit has more than one arc reactor though.

Mmm not really. Cap just doesn't want Bucky to be killed. Not really an agenda at all.

Thanos isn't getting off his space chair. What are you smoking? He couldn't even be bothered to get off his space chair to get a stone which was a stone's throw (lol) away from his location during GotG. He sent Ronan instead, and what a sham that was. If Thanos gave a shit, there wouldn't be all these movies. Lol.

Well you don't know who is Thanos if you think that.
 
It means that a handful of unelected, unaccountable people without any legal authority whatsoever can't make massive decisions on their own that effect the entire planet.

There's a massive problem with the UN; their intentions are just, but it takes ages for them to reach an agreement and their RoE are often impractical. Say there's a supervillain in Syria, the UN moves to deploy Iron Man, War Machine and Vision to contain the threat, but they are not to engage within civilian vicinity. How the hell are you going to get him when he's in a busy marketsquare?
But there are also problems on a geopolitical level; Russia would move to veto that motion, due to that particular villain being of Russian descent. Now you have a supervillain on the lose, doing God knows what, while a bunch of politicians are quabling over the deployment of troops.

Meanwhile, Tony is monitoring the situation in Syria and sees the villain is building a DEATH RAY OF DOOM in his backyard and they can't do jackshit about because politics.
 
And you're just making insults because you have no argument. You also have no idea what the UN actually does in this world or in the MCU.

I don't mean to be dishing insults, I'm actually addressing the content of your posts. You seem very angry, when that's really not called for.
 
I was in awe of young RDJ in the memory scene. Incredible work.

The technology is really cool.

I thought that entire scene was awful though. From the piano singing, to the car safety advertisement tone of the flashback, from the "Wowoahahwow, Tony! So much monuey! So generousus! Chemical sausages!", to Amanda Waller confronting Tony about her son out of nowhere. Just bad.
 
I don't mean to be dishing insults, I'm actually addressing the content of your posts. You seem very angry, when that's really not called for.

Angry? I'm just highlighting with uppercasing. You're just not getting it.

You'd rather side with politicians who are a million times more shady than heroes who risked their lives saving the entire world because it's the right thing to do.
 
Well you don't know who is Thanos if you think that.

ziwaDBL.png
 
Mmm not really. Cap just doesn't want Bucky to be killed. Not really an agenda at all.

Except it is. Even Bucky admitted to being a danger to everyone in the post credits scene, but Cap fought the whole movie fighting against that idea. Do I think the Accords were a great option? No, but when one side is trying to save one person versus one side trying to show accountability I'm gonna choose the side trying to do what, on paper, is best.

Also Ant-Man was great in this, can't wait for that sequel.
 

44GvRke.jpg


Except it is. Even Bucky admitted to being a danger to everyone in the post credits scene, but Cap fought the whole movie fighting against that idea. Do I think the Accords were a great option? No, but when one side is trying to save one person versus one side trying to show accountability I'm gonna choose the side trying to do what, on paper, is best.

Also Ant-Man was great in this, can't wait for that sequel.

So accountability is to execute Bucky? They were all played by Zemo's agenda, while the UN wanted to control the Avengers.
 
Arguing about the U.N. accords is pointless, they purposely made it as dumb as possible so Steve Rogers would seem less obviously wrong.

When people in the real world say "the police need more accountability," they're not asking for police to ask a U.N. panel before doing literally anything.
 
There's a massive problem with the UN; their intentions are just, but it takes ages for them to reach an agreement and their RoE are often impractical. Say there's a supervillain in Syria, the UN moves to deploy Iron Man, War Machine and Vision to contain the threat, but they are not to engage within civilian vicinity. How the hell are you going to get him when he's in a busy marketsquare?
But there are also problems on a geopolitical level; Russia would move to veto that motion, due to that particular villain being of Russian descent. Now you have a supervillain on the lose, doing God knows what, while a bunch of politicians are quabling over the deployment of troops.

Meanwhile, Tony is monitoring the situation in Syria and sees the villain is building a DEATH RAY OF DOOM in his backyard and they can't do jackshit about because politics.

We really didn't get the opportunity to learn what the details of the implementation would be. And frankly, neither did Cap, he just dismissed it out of hand, and even when he seemed to be coming around, he dismissed it again because Tony had put Wanda under house arrest...which seemed like a massive overreaction.

But either way...again, if Nigeria doses't want the Avengers operating within their borders, that is their right. The Accords were a way of legitimizing the Avengers and allowing them to continue operating legally.
 
Angry? I'm just highlighting with uppercasing. You're just not getting it.

You'd rather side with politicians who are a million times more shady than heroes who risked their lives saving the entire world because it's the right thing to do.

I would rather side with law over chaos. You are projecting negative emotions onto politicians and governmental organizations, and idealizing these heroes.
 
One thing I really did like was trying to make Avengers accountable. 1st movie was Thor's fault for not controlling Loki and 2nd was Stark's fault. I did not totally agree Winter Soldier was anyone's fault because the government let Hydra happen.
 
We really didn't get the opportunity to learn what the details of the implementation would be. And frankly, neither did Cap, he just dismissed it out of hand, and even when he seemed to be coming around, he dismissed it again because Tony had put Wanda under house arrest...which seemed like a massive overreaction.

But either way...again, if Nigeria doses't want the Avengers operating within their borders, that is their right. The Accords were a way of legitimizing the Avengers and allowing them to continue operating legally.

Yeah except Nigeria is wrong and Avengers have every right to save the World if some World killing plot happens to be in Nigeria.

I would rather side with law over chaos. You are projecting negative emotions onto politicians and governmental organizations, and idealizing these heroes.

Are you talking about the real world, or the MCU? Because, ya know, if Cap was doing what the government said and kept selling Bonds, Hydra would've taken over the world already.
 
I come out of the movie wanting a Black Panther, Spider-Man and Black Widow movie and it's just sad that one of those will probably never happen. Black Widow was a badass in her scenes.
 
So accountability is to execute Bucky? They were all played by Zemo's agenda, while the UN wanted to control the Avengers.

The UN wanted some accountability after Wanda killed a bunch of innocent people because she didn't know what she was doing. Even Steve almost signed until he threw a fit that Wanda was being kept in house, something totally logical at the time.

Then he goes on a saving Bucky escapade.
 
Thanos only exists for two reasons:

1) to have cool scenes where he poses and does something ~horrifying~ in some "epic" crossover event, so everyone can pretend he's badass.

2) to ultimately job at the end and get owned just to show that even mere mortals and less beings can overcome Death and Titans if they had the power of friendship or just tried hard enough.

Or, in the case of the most recent Secret Wars, he existed entirely as a distraction. Lol.
 
Yeah except Nigeria is wrong and Avengers have every right to save the World if some World killing plot happens to be in Nigeria.

But who gets to decide what is right and wrong? The Avengers should not have that power just because one of them got a strange injection 75 years ago, or because another had an accident with gamma rays.

That power needs to come from the people of the world, and the people are represented by governments.
 
Arguing about the U.N. accords is pointless, they purposely made it as dumb as possible so Steve Rogers would seem less obviously wrong.

When people in the real world say "the police need more accountability," they're not asking for police to ask a U.N. panel before doing literally anything.
When it comes to international matters, they do. Avengers can't be compared to normal police.

But who gets to decide what is right and wrong? The Avengers should not have that power just because one of them got a strange injection 75 years ago, or because another had an accident with gamma rays.

That power needs to come from the people of the world, and the people are represented by governments.
Yet those governments can be too corrupt or slow to deal with the situation.
 
Thanos only exists for two reasons:

1) to have cool scenes where he poses and does something ~horrifying~ in some "epic" crossover event, so everyone can pretend he's badass.

2) to ultimately job at the end and get owned just to show that even mere mortals and less beings can overcome Death and Titans if they had the power of friendship or just tried hard enough.

Or, in the case of the most recent Secret Wars, he existed entirely as a distraction. Lol.

I can't help but feel like, after the mandatory Rogers-Lifts-Mjolnir-and-Shatters-Infinity-Gauntlet-to-Revive-The-Other-Dead-Avengers scene that will probably maybe happen, the only thing left for the end of the 2nd Infinity War film is a scene where everybody gets a good hit in on the Thanos Thrashing where he barely puts up a fight. ._.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom