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[neorej]

We really didn't get the opportunity to learn what the details of the implementation would be. And frankly, neither did Cap, he just dismissed it out of hand, and even when he seemed to be coming around, he dismissed it again because Tony had put Wanda under house arrest...which seemed like a massive overreaction.

But either way...again, if Nigeria doses't want the Avengers operating within their borders, that is their right. The Accords were a way of legitimizing the Avengers and allowing them to continue operating legally.

No, the Accords were a bunch of paperwork to regulate the Avengers. Have a governing body overseeing the actions of the Avengers, to take accountability and assessing threats an determining who and where each Avenger would be deployed. I get the appeal of this, but under that lies a ton of politics, agendas and lobbying.

You can rest assured the world would've reacted negatively to Crossbones walking in Nigeria, taking a vial of bad stuff, and going back underground. Headlines would scream "WHERE WERE THE AVENGERS?".

What I described is not some pessimistic view on bureaucracy, it's how the UN actually works. It's slow, cumbersome and a geopolicitical minefield. By the time they've reached a decision on whether or not to deploy the Avengers, the villain has destroyed or conquered the world two times over.

 

[Matt]

Yet those governments can be too corrupt or slow to deal with the situation.

Yes, they can be. But at least those governments are accountable to the people. The Avengers aren't, which is a problem, and has killed people.

 

[WaterAstro]

The UN wanted some accountability after Wanda killed a bunch of innocent people because she didn't know what she was doing. Even Steve almost signed until he threw a fit that Wanda was being kept in house, something totally logical at the time.

Then he goes on a saving Bucky escapade.

Yeah I don't get that part. If she didn't send Crossbones into the sky, it would've killed everyone around them on the ground.

Innocent people die either way.

It's exactly the same reasoning for Cap2. If Cap didn't drop those helicarriers, Hydra would have killed hundreds of thousands.

 

[neorej]

Yes, they can be. But at least those governments are accountable to the people. The Avengers aren't, which is a problem, and has killed people.

Being accountable on paper does not always mean you're actually going to be held accountable.

 

[RepairmanJack]

So, Black Panther has a thing for Black Widow, right?

Well we know how Banner comes back into the picture.

 

[TheSlySoul]

Yet those governments can be too corrupt or slow to deal with the situation.

Yeah, that is why I was Team Cap the whole time. While I have no issues heroes being accounted for, it should not be the government. Plus Bucky was framed and going to be killed. In the end, everything worked out with having to be held accountable to be in Avengers.

 

[Matt]

No, the Accords were a bunch of paperwork to regulate the Avengers. Have a governing body overseeing the actions of the Avengers, to take accountability and assessing threats an determining who and where each Avenger would be deployed. I get the appeal of this, but under that lies a ton of politics, agendas and lobbying.

You can rest assured the world would've reacted negatively to Crossbones walking in Nigeria, taking a vial of bad stuff, and going back underground. Headlines would scream "WHERE WERE THE AVENGERS?".

What I described is not some pessimistic view on bureaucracy, it's how the UN actually works. It's slow, cumbersome and a geopolicitical minefield. By the time they've reached a decision on whether or not to deploy the Avengers, the villain has destroyed or conquered the world two times over.

Cap never suggested another system of accountability or leadership, he made it clear he didn't want the Avengers under anybody. So I don't know if attacking the UN for bureaucratic inefficiency is getting at the core of his arguments.

 

[duckroll]

But who gets to decide what is right and wrong?

No one "decides" what is right or wrong though. People do things, and are judged on the results and intentions. We can look at every single war which was fought in history. Who was right and who was wrong? Sometimes it depends on who got to rewrite history after winning it, sometimes it is clear that an aggression was made for the wrong reasons and sometimes it is clear that a war was fought to uphold what it right. Perspective and context is what determines morality.

So if the Avengers decide to go invade a country because they wanted to profit from it, then they're not superheroes, they're supervillains. If they invade a country to stop someone from doing something that could have worse consequences on the world, despite the country not wanting them to do it, they're still heroes because they're doing it for the right reasons. They're not "deciding" what is right or wrong, they're just doing what they feel is right or wrong and will be judged for it by others. A hero isn't born, a hero is made. There's nothing inherently special about Tony Stark or Steve Rogers that entitles them to being superheroes, they are superheroes because the sum of their actions is regarded as heroic and good. If that ever changes, then they would no longer be heroes.

I think it's that simple.

 

[Branduil]

Thanos is basically Rita Repulsa at this point. I mean Marvel wants us to believe he's this just-as-keikaku mastermind guiding everything and yet he does nothing but take Ls in every movie.

I don't think he can recover from just sitting there and letting

Spoiler

Ronan steal his infinity stone, a guy so incompetent he got murdered by a dancing idiot

despite possessing said infinity stone at the time.

 

[Matt]

Being accountable on paper does not always mean you're actually going to be held accountable.

No, it doesn't.

But it's better than nothing.

 

[blankempathy]

It was because he was his friend that Cap knew that Bucky was not himself. I mean that's what it comes down to. He's not doing it just because he is -his friend- but because Cap's friends are not bad people. That's how he chooses his friends. It's not that he is perfect, it's that he is a good man. That doesn't mean perfection, it just means having a strong moral compass. And I absolutely agree with this assessment that Tony gets more shit than Steve in this comparison. But I think there's also a reason for that. Tony does things for the wrong reasons and they blow up on him. Steve does things for the right reasons so even if something blows up, people tend to be more forgiving.

I disagree that things never really explode in Steve's face. Something literally did in this film. What happened with Crossbones is a HUGE blunder and people actually died. It's true that the movie doesn't dwell on it for as long as it probably should, but I think it is felt. Steve blames himself more than anyone else, so no one else needs to beat him up about it more.

But even if you know your friend isn't themselves that doesn't excuse the fact that they need to be stopped. Bucky was a danger. At worst he would of been recaptured and brought under Hydras command and murder more people. At best he would of been a confused mess. He had decades of brainwashing done to him as well as countless physical/mental trauma i'm sure. Thats some gamble to take. Also was Ultron really done for the wrong reason? Tony knows just how vulnerable Earth is with the technology/defenses they currently have. They're going to need everything they can get to fight Thanos. The problem is ultron of course went crazy and tried to kill mankind. His heart was in the wrong place just like Cap. Except Ultron went crazy and Bucky didn't. As for crossbones yea it was a huge blunder. An obvious expected blunder seeing as they chased a bunch of armed men through a crowded city. I'm surprised more people didn't die or someone wasn't taken hostage. It was a huge blunder that could of been prevented with someone blocking off the escape routes or not engaging them in the city. Imagine if instead of blowing himself up Crossbones had the vial and decided to drop it?

 

[Sanjuro]

So, Black Panther has a thing for Black Widow, right?

Speaking of that, I'm surprised they had his entourage female who threatened Black Widow, but just left it there without context.

 

[WaterAstro]

But who gets to decide what is right and wrong? The Avengers should not have that power just because one of them got a strange injection 75 years ago, or because another had an accident with gamma rays.

That power needs to come from the people of the world, and the people are represented by governments.

And the people knows what's best for them in this extraordinary situation? Like you said, the "people" didn't know about any aliens or about hydra. They aren't qualified to make that decision.

It's funny because the exact same thing happened in the comics Civil War. The People sided with Ironman to register superhumans, and guess what, that's what caused the Secret Invasion to happen, that let Norman Osborne to be in control, that's what almost made The Sentry destroy the world.

 

[jmood88]

I want a Scarlet Witch and Vision movie.

 

[Matt]

No one "decides" what is right or wrong though. People do things, and are judged on the results and intentions. We can look at every single war which was fought in history. Who was right and who was wrong? Sometimes it depends on who got to rewrite history after winning it, sometimes it is clear that an aggression was made for the wrong reasons and sometimes it is clear that a war was fought to uphold what it right. Perspective and context is what determines morality.

So if the Avengers decide to go invade a country because they wanted to profit from it, then they're not superheroes, they're supervillains. If they invade a country to stop someone from doing something that could have worse consequences on the world, despite the country not wanting them to do it, they're still heroes because they're doing it for the right reasons. They're not "deciding" what is right or wrong, they're just doing what they feel is right or wrong and will be judged for it by others. A hero isn't born, a hero is made. There's nothing inherently special about Tony Stark or Steve Rogers that entitles them to being superheroes, they are superheroes because the sum of their actions is regarded as heroic and good. If that ever changes, then they would no longer be heroes.

I think it's that simple.

...but none of this addresses what practical structure there should be in the MCU (as far as we can address such things in a made up universe). It sounds nice but it's not dealing with the actual issue.

 

[neorej]

Cap never suggested another system of accountability or leadership, he made it clear he didn't want the Avengers under anybody. So I don't know if attacking the UN for bureaucratic inefficiency is getting at the core of his arguments.

"The safest hands are still our own."

This is a man who has dealth with bureaucracy in the past and it almost cost his warbuddies their lives. He's not standing for that. He's a man who sees a situation going south, he can't ignore it. Whether you like it or not, the UN's ineffiency stems from it's bureaucratic nature.

 

[Tobor]

Bucky proves Cap right in the end, though. "The safest hands are still our own".

Bucky chooses to essentially imprison himself until they can figure out how to wipe his programming. That's the right call. No oversight needed.

Anyway, how can anyone trust any government after Hydra?

 

[Matt]

And the people knows what's best for them in this extraordinary situation? Like you said, the "people" didn't know about any aliens or about hydra. They aren't qualified to make that decision.

It's funny because the exact same thing happened in the comics Civil War. The People sided with Ironman to register superhumans, and guess what, that's what caused the Secret Invasion to happen, that let Norman Osborne to be in control, that's what almost made The Sentry destroy the world.

People also have the right to make mistakes. That's freedom.

 

[neorej]

No, it doesn't.

But it's better than nothing.

Untill the Avengers actually intentionally put people in harm's way, I'd say a vigilante group of world police that stand above and beyond petty politics is pretty damn good.

 

[Alienous]

Speaking of that, I'm surprised they had his entourage female who threatened Black Widow, but just left it there without context.

Yeah, one of the Dora Milaje.

 

[Archpath1]

Mmmmm aunt may

Like fine wine

 

[RepairmanJack]

I want a Scarlet Witch and Vision movie.

Vision at the end! I don't know why but him sitting there spinning the chess piece was kind of chilling. It made me feel even more that the avengers are now in shambles and he's sitting there going through tons of calculations and thought and seems to really be struggling. It's the first time he's seen as restless.

 

[jmood88]

Thanos is basically Rita Repulsa at this point. I mean Marvel wants us to believe he's this just-as-keikaku mastermind guiding everything and yet he does nothing but take Ls in every movie.

I don't think he can recover from just sitting there and letting

Spoiler

Ronan steal his infinity stone, a guy so incompetent he got murdered by a dancing idiot

despite possessing said infinity stone at the time.

He'll recover as soon as he finally shows up in person and kills a bunch of people.

 

[Matt]

"The safest hands are still our own."

This is a man who has dealth with bureaucracy in the past and it almost cost his warbuddies their lives. He's not standing for that. He's a man who sees a situation going south, he can't ignore it. Whether you like it or not, the UN's ineffiency stems from it's bureaucratic nature.

Cap made it clear that he was worried about the moral choices the UN would make. He literally never said anything about bureaucracy or speed, unless I'm misremembering.

 

[Branduil]

People who actually believe superheroes with zero oversight are a good idea really need to read Watchmen, LOL.

He'll recover as soon as he finally shows up in person and kills a bunch of people.

Will he even kill more people than the Avengers already have?

 

[duckroll]

...but none of this addresses what practical structure there should be in the MCU (as far as we can address such things in a made up universe). It sounds nice but it's not dealing with the actual issue.

There is no practical structure. Don't you see? Normal people trying to make rules to make sense of a world with gods, aliens, supersoldiers, and people so rich they can build toys which can destroy countries... is insanity. It cannot make sense. You just have to pray that those who are working to protect you keep doing it, and that those who are bad don't outnumber those who are good.

Cap made it clear that he was worried about the moral choices the UN would make. He literally never said anything about bureaucracy or speed, unless I'm misremembering.

He did. "What if they don't want us to go somewhere we need to be?" "Or if they send us somewhere we don't want to go?"

 

[WaterAstro]

People also have the right to make mistakes. That's freedom.

Well no doubt people have the right to destroy the world, which I would give Avengers the complete control to correct that mistake.

 

[civilstrife]

Couldn't they just deafen Bucky? He could have a pretty normal life all things considered.

 

[Matt]

Untill the Avengers actually intentionally put people in harm's way, I'd say a vigilante group of world police that stand above and beyond petty politics is pretty damn good.

So it has to be intentional? Ultron proved they can make massive mistakes that some oversight or accountability might have prevented.

 

[BBboy20]

Well clearly this film is making people talk about these themes as it hoped it would .

 

[hamchan]

TBH the people in the world of the MCU should be on their knees praising whatever cosmic entity is out there that the Avengers are good guys. The Avengers have the power to take over the world if they really want to. Instead, they use it to save people. The people of this world are lucky.

 

[Bizazedo]

Why the fuck did I get misty eyed when Sharon gave the You Move speech?

Argh what is wrong with me.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, they can be. But at least those governments are accountable to the people. The Avengers aren't, which is a problem, and has killed people.

Those governments do the same thing without accountability to their people all the time. If I lived in the MCU I rather trust Captain America to do the right thing then a bunch of suits in Congress.

 

[duckroll]

People who actually believe superheroes with zero oversight are a good idea really need to read Watchmen, LOL.

I don't think Watchmen is a story that will turn out well with or without oversight. It only underlines the theme that a world of superheroes is insanity for the common man. It's not really an argument for oversight rather than hardcore fear mongering on how fucked up such a world would be in the first place. There is really no "answer" to this issue.

Couldn't they just deafen Bucky? He could have a pretty normal life all things considered.

Dude, that's fucked up.

 

[neorej]

Cap made it clear that he was worried about the moral choices the UN would make. He literally never said anything about bureaucracy or speed, unless I'm misremembering.

It wasn't specific on moral. "What if there's some place we need to be, but we are not allowed?" the reason for not being allowed to be deployed does not matter.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Serious talk, Did Scarlet Witch get a serious power level decrease in this? She alone almost ruined the Avengers by getting in their minds and in this all she's doing is throwing stuff around.

 

[Matt]

There is no practical structure. Don't you see? Normal people trying to make rules to make sense of a world with gods, aliens, supersoldiers, and people so rich they can build toys which can destroy countries... is insanity. It cannot make sense. You just have to pray that those who are working to protect you keep doing it, and that those who are bad don't outnumber those who are good.

Then there is no point in making a film with political messages in it. If we're not supposed to think about the reasoning and meaning behind what happens it really is brain dead action.

He did. "What if they don't want us to go somewhere we need to be?" "Or if they send us somewhere we don't want to go?"

Again, none of that is about speed. Those are both about the moral choices of acting or not acting.

 

[neorej]

So it has to be intentional? Ultron proved they can make massive mistakes that some oversight or accountability might have prevented.

Because Tony is big on sharing his inventions? Even after signing the accords, he kept the Iron Man suit to himself.

 

[jmood88]

Serious talk, Did Scarlet Witch get a serious power level decrease in this? She alone almost ruined the Avengers by getting in their minds and in this all she's doing is throwing stuff around.

They went out of their way to show that she is pretty damn powerful, just that she hasn't mastered her powers.

 

[Branduil]

I don't think Watchmen is a story that will turn out well with or without oversight. It only underlines the theme that a world of superheroes is insanity for the common man. It's not really an argument for oversight rather than hardcore fear mongering on how fucked up such a world would be in the first place. There is really no "answer" to this issue.

The answer is to figure out a way to kill all the superheroes tbh. Or at least the ones with world-destroying powers who refuse to submit to any government.

 

[duckroll]

Serious talk, Did Scarlet Witch get a serious power level decrease in this? She alone almost ruined the Avengers by getting in their minds and in this all she's doing is throwing stuff around.

No. See what she did to Vision. She -can- still do all that, she clearly just doesn't want to because she's afraid of herself. After Ultron the PTSD is going to stick for a while I think. Until they just remove the limiter on her in the next Avengers films.

 

[Alienous]

Serious talk, Did Scarlet Witch get a serious power level decrease in this? She alone almost ruined the Avengers by getting in their minds and in this all she's doing is throwing stuff around.

I get the feeling that she doesn't want to scar her friends mentally.

 

[El Topo]

Serious talk, Did Scarlet Witch get a serious power level decrease in this? She alone almost ruined the Avengers by getting in their minds and in this all she's doing is throwing stuff around.

No one in this movie is fighting seriously (to avoid hurting others), except for at the very end. Scarlet Witch is fine, see what she did to Vision.

 

[Matt]

Those governments do the same thing without accountability to their people all the time. If I lived in the MCU I rather trust Captain America to do the right thing then a bunch of suits in Congress.

All members of Congress have to be elected. They also have to follow the law. That's accountability. Even if the system fails sometimes at least it's in place. The Cap just wants none for his guys, period.

 

[Tobor]

I live the debate happening in this thread. It just illustrates what a success this film was in handling such a complex theme.

Cap was right, though.

 

[Sblargh]

The proof that superheroes ultimately cannot be controled is how they built a prison in the middle of the ocean for no other reason other than keep super people locked in and captain america (alone?) goes in and break everyone out.

Again, if I am a citizen of this world, I am freaking out and demanding the government does fucking something, but 5 super soldiers, by themselves, are enough to bring a country down. You can't tie these people to regular rules.

That's superheroes, we hope they are forces for good. If they aren't, we are fucked.

 

[razzmahtazz]

Yes, they can be. But at least those governments are accountable to the people. The Avengers aren't, which is a problem, and has killed people.

Not all governments are accountable to the people. And when those governments have some power over people like the Avengers then their world is fucked.

China or Russia can just veto the actionable events every time if it was against their self interest. It happens all the time in the real world.

Cap is just fine with what they are doing at the beginning of the movie. Avengers as a private organization. They are already accountable as I stated earlier.

 

[Matt]

Because Tony is big on sharing his inventions? Even after signing the accords, he kept the Iron Man suit to himself.

...?

"Hey, UN, I want to use this alien computer program to create an AI to take over all protection of the world. Also, I have like 2 days to do it all."

"Umm, better not."

Thousands (?) saved.

 

[neorej]

The proof that superheroes ultimately cannot be controled is how they built a prison in the middle of the ocean for no other reason other than keep super people locked in and captain america (alone?) goes in and break everyone out.

Again, if I am a citizen of this world, I am freaking out and demanding the government does fucking something, but 5 super soldiers, by themselves, are enough to bring a country down. You can't tie these people to regular rules.

That's superheroes, we hope they are forces for good. If they aren't, we are fucked.

Talking about accountability; the government has built a prison in the middle of the ocean, and the public doesn't know about it? How's that for transparency?

 

[RepairmanJack]

Ok, I guess I'm alone on Wanda. I just feel like they turned her power solely into telekinesis and that just sort of seemed like a downgrade. I mean she couldn't have attempted to do something to Bucky's mind?