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[LucidMomentum]

He might not take Cap's side, but you can be sure that he wouldn't have bowed to Thunderbolt Ross.

Yeah, if Banner was there he would've told everyone exactly why Ross needs to be put in check, not the other way around.

Just came back from seeing this.

What was the point of Zemo doing anything? If he had just uploaded his video to Youtube and sent the link to Stark, what difference would it have made? The wedge between the Avengers was already happening due to the documents. He sort of gave a reason for Cap to go rogue, but considering Cap didn't sign the documents, that would have eventually happened anyway.

Like T'Challa said, vengeance. Zemo wanted to be there.

He clearly didn't have the will to live much longer than to enact his plan, so it could be argued he wanted to personally show them the video one way or another.

Spoiler

Suspension of disbelief.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I approve of this Marvel x Arrested Development crossover.

 

[LakeEarth]

Whenever the Avengers were at a point where they could settle down and talk things through, Zemo would cause some sort of disruption that ruined things.

And the video was at the base. He didn't have it until that point in the movie.

 

[GekigangerV]

Just came back from seeing this.

What was the point of Zemo doing anything? If he had just uploaded his video to Youtube and sent the link to Stark, what difference would it have made? The wedge between the Avengers was already happening due to the documents. He sort of gave a reason for Cap to go rogue, but considering Cap didn't sign the documents, that would have eventually happened anyway.

Zemo's plan was convoluted and filled with conveniences.

Did Zemo hire Crossbones in the Bucky disguise for the job in the beginning or was it just plot convenience that he mentioned Bucky hired him just to get to Cap?

This sets up the UN Sokovia Accords meeting which he uses to get a worldwide manhunt going for Bucky. They had shoot to kill orders so Zemo was lucky Bucky was brought in alive.

Then it was kind of convenient to the plot that only Iron Man was there to meet Cap at the Siberia compound.

There was almost no REAL reason for Zemo to call for breakfast that would have helped him. What IF Ross believed Stark with evidence of the dead psychiatrist and Bucky disguise and said okay, let's try to get there ASAP with Vision and have him phase through the wall and capture Zemo before he even gets a chance to play the tape?

You are right, if Iron Man didn't show up I am sure Zemo could have snuck out and uploaded the footage to the Internet. He wanted to destroy remnants of Hydra so I imagine he didn't care what other documents were in the base and probably would have destroyed whatever else was there so no one could get their hands on it.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Huh. That's an interesting opinion. Hulk, the one avenger who left to protect people from himself, wouldn't take iron man's side, the one who thinks the avengers should be kept in check so that people are protected from them.

He would not bow to being controlled by the government though, because there is absolutely no way he would trust them to not take advantage of his power. Not to mention that the government representative was Thunderbolt Ross; i.e. probably the man he trusts least in the world.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Zemo's plan was convoluted and filled with conveniences.

Did Zemo hire Crossbones in the Bucky disguise for the job in the beginning or was it just plot convenience that he mentioned Bucky hired him just to get to Cap?

This sets up the UN Sokovia Accords meeting which he uses to get a worldwide manhunt going for Bucky. They had shoot to kill orders so Zemo was lucky Bucky was brought in alive.

Then it was kind of convenient to the plot that only Iron Man was there to meet Cap at the Siberia compound.

There was almost no REAL reason for Zemo to call for breakfast that would have helped him. What IF Ross believed Stark with evidence of the dead psychiatrist and Bucky disguise and said okay, let's try to get there ASAP with Vision and have him phase through the wall and capture Zemo before he even gets a chance to play the tape?

You are right, if Iron Man didn't show up I am sure Zemo could have snuck out and uploaded the footage to the Internet. He wanted to destroy remnants of Hydra so I imagine he didn't care what other documents were in the base and probably would have destroyed whatever else was there so no one could get their hands on it.

1. Crossbones never had the Bucky disguise. That was Zemo himself. The disguise was found at his hotel room. Crossbones mentioned Bucky because he's worked with him before, as a Hydra agent.

2. The Sokovia Accords weren't setup by the Lagos incident. It had been in the works long before, but Lagos helped speed it along and get Wakanda involved.

3. The explosion at the accords meeting set up the manhunt for Bucky, but Zemo bet on Cap finding him first, as he would be the one looking for him the most. That one was a bit of a gamble.

4. The other Avengers were in the Raft. Tony was the only person who could go and he wasn't telling Ross for obvious reasons.

5. Zemo know Tony / the Avengers had ways of hearing news / police reports worldwide. Ross wasn't listening to anything Tony was saying at that point, and with Vision shooting Rhodey I doubt he'd want him to help. This was also a gamble, but the most direct way to get Tony's attention.

6. He didn't want to destroy Hydra, he wanted to destroy the Avengers as a group. His quote earlier was that Hydra deserves its fair share of punishment but that's not what he was after. He killed the other Winter Soldiers because he didn't care and didn't want more super humans around.

Spoiler

Suspension of disbelief.

 

[guek]

I had another thought that I'm not convinced was intentional but would be if it were. Charlie Spencer, the son of the woman who confronts Stark, was crushed under a building. From the sound of things, Charlie was killed by falling rubble instead of being left on floating city when it exploded. Zemo's family was also crushed outside of the city limits by falling rubble.

This might just be a coincidence, and to be honest it probably is, but it might also be Marcus and McFeely adding another layer to the Avengers guilt by making these pivotal deaths entirely outside of the Avengers attention during Ultron's attack. Not only did these civilians on the ground go completely ignored once the city went up, they were due to the literal margins of the Avengers' problem breaking off and killing them. There was literally nothing the Avengers could do to stop those deaths because they were fighting on the floating city. If it's intentional, it's quite clever.

 

[Figboy79]

Haha. Loved Civil War but when I got out of it, I said to my fiancé that it was the first Marvel movie that I'd feel iffy on bringing a kid too. It's a little more violent and dark than most, and shit between Tony and Cap in that final fight gets fucking personal.

Yeah, it is pretty intense, but I can't think of it being any more intense than some of the other superhero movies. I still think the final battle between Spider-Man and Green Goblin in Spider-Man raw is one of the most raw and visceral fights I've seen. Civil War comes close, though.

 

[esmith08734]

So aside from Captain knowing that Bucky killed Tony's parents, I had little complaints.

I think this movie did a great job in avoiding the Marvel layering. What I mean is: a lot of Marvel movies suffer from the thrown in villain and do not provide a great insight on the motives of the character. They really just serve as an obstacle for the protagonist and never a true character to either despise or sympathize with. I really, really liked the idea of the antagonist being the inner conflict within. It was so simple and effective.

Also, I loved the characters here. Spiderman was top tier. THE best on-screen interpretation of the character yet. Paul Rudd crushed it again. Black Panther was great and Vision was the unexpected comic relief with his doofy sweaters.

I mean this movie nuked DC. It was really great. This, Guardians of the Galaxy, and the original Avengers are my favorite Marvel movies.

 

[DecoReturns]

I just watch the Movie and each time I don't understand the extent of every bodies power/strength.

There's no consistency at all or maybe there is, since I've skipped a lot of marvel movies since Winter soldier.

 

[Bizazedo]

So aside from Captain knowing that Bucky killed Tony's parents, I had little complaints..

Well, didn't Zola show Cap that Bucky could've been involved in Stark's deaths?

 

[Boem]

I was just thinking about the Community cameos in the last two Cap movies. Obviously in Civil War, they snuck in the Dean. In Winter Soldier, they had Abed. But I realized on a recent re-watch of Winter Soldier that the computer guy with the big beard at the mall was one of the Derrick Comedy guys, and was also on several episodes of Community.

I wonder if there are any others that I missed.

Also, that computer store guy was partly based on Spencer, from Dan Harmon's (the creator of Community) Harmontown, his podcast/stage show. Spencer was just a guy from the audience and they got the idea to play D&D on stage, asked if there was a dungeon master in the crowd, they got Spencer and he's been with the show ever since (and is one of the most popular guys on there as well). Now he's Dan Harmon's personal assistant and he acted on Community and Great Minds with Dan Harmon. He's also the dungeon master on the upcoming Harmonquest tv show.

Anyway, the computer guy in Winter Soldier looks like him (although a lot more cleaned up), and Spencer worked at an Apple Store before he was discovered by Harmon. The Russo's already said that was an intended reference. Also, the computer guy was called Erin, which was the name of Dan Harmon's (now ex-)wife, and who also appeared on Harmontown a lot (and one episode of Community, and Harmonquest).

I'm guessing the Harmon-references will continue in their other Marvelstuff.

 

[LakeEarth]

Upon rewatch, I had a brief issue when Captain America made the piece of the airport fall on Spider-man. At that point, Cap just met him and only saw him swing around and hit some people. He had no way of knowing that Spider-man could've survived that, let alone carry it so they could exchange addresses.

I just watch the Movie and each time I don't understand the extent of every bodies power/strength.

There's no consistency at all or maybe there is, since I've skipped a lot of marvel movies since Winter soldier.

Regarding power levels in the MCU, they definitely try to even out the playing field a bit. The low powered people take bumps that they shouldn't be able to take. The high powered people get hurt more than they should. Hulk is an exception.

Well, didn't Zola show Cap that Bucky could've been involved in Stark's deaths?

He absolutely suggested that HYDRA killed the Starks. I don't think he implied that Bucky did it though.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Well, didn't Zola show Cap that Bucky could've been involved in Stark's deaths?

Yes and we don't know what exactly was in that file Natasha handed to Steve at the end of the movie. There could have been enough info in there for him to put two and two together.

 

[Einchy]

Cap kneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew

Since people still argue against Cap finding out about Tony's parents in WS, here are the screenwriters confirming it.

https://youtu.be/qHohgK7B8-s?t=16m50s

 

[IndoAssassin]

Well, didn't Zola show Cap that Bucky could've been involved in Stark's deaths?

No while Zola is talking with Cap about Hydra creating unrest in civilization and working from the shadows to make people give up their freedom, a newspaper article of Howard Stark and his wife's accident appears on the screen.

This would imply that Hydra had something to do with their accident.

Besides Cap says to Tony he knew that they were murdered but didn't know who did it.

I don't understand why people think Cap knew Bucky did it

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

I just watch the Movie and each time I don't understand the extent of every bodies power/strength.

There's no consistency at all or maybe there is, since I've skipped a lot of marvel movies since Winter soldier.

Goes like this:

Top-tier:
Vision
Hulk
Thor
Scarlet Witch

Mid-tier:
Ant-Man
Iron Man
War Machine
Spider-Man
Quicksilver
Captain America
Black Panther
Bucky

Low-tier:
Falcon
Hawkeye
Black Widow

Cap, T'Challa, and Bucky are very even with each other, though. And Falcon is quite a bit above Hawkeye and Black Widow.

Upon rewatch, I had a brief issue when Captain America made the piece of the airport fall on Spider-man. At that point, Cap just met him and only saw him swing around and hit some people. He had no way of knowing that Spider-man could've survived that, let alone carry it so they could exchange addresses.

Cap got a feel for his strength when Spidey kicked him and when he was pulling back Cap with his webs with ease.

 

[Tosyn_88]

Cap kneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew

To be fair on cap fans, the movie doesn't explicitly show that he knew, it's framed to be interpreted as if he may have or may not have. That said, the movie tries as much to make cap look good since its his movie, but the foundation of his actions has Big flaws

 

[Einchy]

I hope Thor gets a really good buff in Thor 3 cus so far he hasn't seemed that strong. He has that moment when he went toe to toe with Hulk in Avengers 1 but that's really one of the only times we saw his true strength.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

I hope Thor gets a really good buff in Thor 3 cus so far he hasn't seemed that strong. He has that moment when he went toe to toe with Hulk in Avengers 1 but that's really one of the only times we saw his true strength.

Cracking a city was pretty decent. I don't think Hulk could do that.

 

[TRios Zen]

Both Cap and Widow knew as they were both exposed to same information - talk from Zola and the Winter Soldier dossier that Widow gives Cap at end of Winter Soldier.

Cap knew - he even apologizes for it in letter at end.

Not a big sticking point for me, but I guess to some this is a huge deal.

 

[Abounder]

Fun movie but it really puts the "civil" in civil war...no one dies and barely anyone gets injured for such a super conflict, and the cell phone at the end killed the stakes completely. Might as well be called CA and the fugitive friends, oh well.

More nitpicks ahoy: there's also too many dead dads and the Winter Soldier's gimmick is to be a human sized Hulk, and Cap's creepy love story was even more rushed than the Hobbit's. Could also live without the quips about quips 'There's not this much talking in fights' is goddamn stupid even for superheroes

Fun stuff, 8/10. Loved Spidey's song selection

 

[Einchy]

Cracking a city was pretty decent. I don't think Hulk could do that.

Did that happen in Thor 1/2? Cus I really don't remember much in those movies.

 

[Inferno313]

Yeah, it is pretty intense, but I can't think of it being any more intense than some of the other superhero movies. I still think the final battle between Spider-Man and Green Goblin in Spider-Man raw is one of the most raw and visceral fights I've seen. Civil War comes close, though.

I'd argue it's more emotionally intense than most Marvel films. You've got two characters, who we've spent 8 films with, at this point who are both heroes to children and they're both going at each other, hard. Nearly killing each other even, and slinging personal insults the whole time. It's fantastic, everything the Batman V Superman fight should've been. But, I felt a little bad for any kid who would've been upset seeing their heroes nearly kill each other.

Things like Zemo murdering that Hyrda guy are also a little more fucked up than most of the previous Marvel films.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

Did that happen in Thor 1/2? Cus I really don't remember much in those movies.

Age of Ultron.

 

[LakeEarth]

Things like Zemo murdering that Hyrda guy are also a little more fucked up than most of the previous Marvel films.

That reminds me, the guy dies when the water gets to his nose and not his mouth. Is that a realistic thing, cause it kind of confused me.

 

[Inferno313]

That reminds me, the guy dies when the water gets to his nose and not his mouth. Is that a realistic thing, cause it kind of confused me.

Well he doesn't die right at that moment, does he? That's just when he starts panicking and splashing around, which makes sense to me.

 

[Einchy]

Age of Ultron.

Oh, that.

I think that has more to do with all of the machinery that was making the city float blowing up from him setting it off.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

Oh, that.

I think that has more to do with all of the machinery that was making the city float blowing up from him setting it off.

Thor had to crack the city to set the device off. He obviously didn't vaporize the entire construct, but he dented it. Considering said construct is the size of a city, that's very impressive.

 

[LakeEarth]

Well he doesn't die right at that moment, does he? That's just when he starts panicking and splashing around, which makes sense to me.

He starts making choking noises, but his mouth is still exposed to air. In fact, it looked like this mouth was above the edge of the sink, which just added to my confusion.

 

[guek]

Oh, that.

I think that has more to do with all of the machinery that was making the city float blowing up from him setting it off.

Tony talks about having Thor crack the city before he thought up hitting it from both sides to make the city explode, suggesting he could have done it by himself but not without causing massive pieces to fall to the earth.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

To be fair though, Thor needs to charge his hammer to max before he can crack a city.

 

[kirblar]

There was an implication that Bucky did it, but Zola never states it outright. That's why Steve confirms he knew they were assassinated, but tells Tony he didn't know it was Bucky.

 

[Einchy]

Time to rewatch Age of Ultron again then cus I don't remember that scene too well.

Spoiler

Age of Ultron is awesome.

 

[Toa TAK]

^Agreed

https://youtu.be/7Z7bZOJV3v8

Marry me!

"Scarlet and the Vision found out that it was impossible for a human and an android to conceive."

GO FIGURE

 

[flkraven]

Goes like this:

Top-tier:
Vision
Hulk
Thor
Scarlet Witch

Mid-tier:
Iron Man
War Machine
Ant-Man
Spider-Man
Quicksilver
Captain America
Black Panther
Bucky

Low-tier:
Falcon
Hawkeye
Black Widow

Cap, T'Challa, and Bucky are very even with each other, though. And Falcon is quite a bit above Hawkeye and Black Widow.



Cap got a feel for his strength when Spidey kicked him and when he was pulling back Cap with his webs with ease.

If these are all the MCU characters, then I would totally slot Spidey in top tier. He is literally 10 times stronger than everyone else there. He doesn't belong in a room of robot-augmented humans and super serum soldiers.

 

[guek]

Time to rewatch Age of Ultron again then cus I don't remember that scene too well.

Spoiler

Age of Ultron is awesome.

Heck yeah it is

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

If these are all the MCU characters, then I would totally slot Spidey in top tier. He is literally 10 times stronger than everyone else there. He doesn't belong in a room of robot-augmented humans and super serum soldiers.

In the MCU, Spidey most certainly isn't 10 times physically stronger than Bucky, let alone Cap or Iron Man. In terms of overall combat strength, you saw how Cap kicked him around. Strength is one thing, but Cap is so much more experienced and skilled than Peter that he can land multiple hits on the guy without the fight ever coming down to just strength. That's why they were pretty even.

As of now, Peter can't beat Ant-Man. Against the Iron Mans, it's up in the air.

 

[flkraven]

In the MCU, Spidey most certainly isn't 10 times physically stronger than Bucky, let alone Cap or Iron Man. In terms of overall combat strength, you saw how Cap kicked him around. Strength is one thing, but Cap is so much more experienced and skilled than Peter that he can land multiple hits on the guy without the fight ever coming down to just strength. That's why they were pretty even.

As of now, Peter can't beat Ant-Man. Against the Iron Mans, it's up in the air.

Spidey caught a jet bridge that fell on top of him all by himself. He caught Winter Soldier's metal arm with zero effort (the same metal arm that nearly dented cap's shield). Age and experience don't mean that Spidey isn't top-tier power-wise here.

 

[LocknessMobster]

I would have preferred an older Peter Parker Spiderman in the film however I think what they did worked. He's young,inexperienced and not anywhere near his peak physical capacity yet. Had he of been,the fights would of ended way quicker and would not been as balanced as it was.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

Spidey caught a jet bridge that fell on top of him all by himself. He caught Winter Soldier's metal arm with zero effort (the same metal arm that nearly dented cap's shield). Age and experience don't mean that Spidey isn't top-tier power-wise here.

He isn't top-tier, though. He would get handily beaten by Giant-Man and Iron Man/War Machine have 50/50 odds of beating him. The top-tier in my list - Vision, Wanda, Thor, Hulk - would demolish him and it wouldn't be close. He doesn't belong in top-tier.

 

[Hockey123]

Oh another random thought. I thought that Cap was taking a shot at Tony when he asked where Pepper was. Turned out he just didn't know lol

 

[Switch Back 9]

I cannot fathom how anyone can cheer on Cap helping Bucky fight Tony after Tony just watched BUCKY MURDER HIS FUCKING PARENTS.

Like, fuck Captain America so hard. #TeamCap can suck fifty billion Thanos coloured cocks.

Oh another random thought. I thought that Cap was taking a shot at Tony when he asked where Pepper was. Turned out he just didn't know lol

So did I haha. There was an audible "oh no he didn't" gasp when that happened.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

He isn't top-tier, though. He would get handily beaten by Giant-Man and Iron Man/War Machine have 50/50 odds of beating him. The top-tier in my list - Vision, Wanda, Thor, Hulk - would demolish him and it wouldn't be close. He doesn't belong in top-tier.

Purely powerwise, Spiderman has every but hulk, thor, Wanda and vision seriously outclassed. He just needs training to understand his own power. Once he gets that.He, probably needs his own tier between the above 4 who all have massively unnatural advantages for various reasons, And everyone else.

Given that the airport is probably the first time he's fought other super powered people, he did pretty well.

 

[Lunar15]

Question: If people blamed the Avengers for all the collateral damage, how were they, and by association Stark, not sued into oblivion?.Like, everyone and their mother should have realized that the collateral damage doesn't magically go away if they're a regulated entity. The main thing is that there would be some cost mitigation by participating countries.

Also, weren't the Avengers technically part of Shield when they were founded? Wasn't the Avengers initiative a Shield directive, with Shield being a government department? That's part of what makes this whole thing confusing to me.

I dunno, I enjoyed this movie, but the plot devices were pretty lousy. It's a shame because I think they had a ton of good elements in there for a compelling drama (Bucky being a fugitive, Cap knowing about Bucky killing the starks, etc), but my eyes were rolling whenever they talked about the accords. They really should have just ditched the actual Civil War plot from the comic books and focused on Bucky. I mean I get why they had to have some of that government regulation discussion in there, it's just a lot of it rang so hollow to me. It's still a great film, that's just one black eye.

I also couldn't really get behind Tony's rampage at the end. I mean, I get being mad, I get "breaking up" with cap, but the near-murderous intent just seems wild to me. Especially when the villain is right there and has a clear goal in showing you that info. It's like, duh!

 

[Wheeljack539]

I cannot fathom how anyone can cheer on Cap helping Bucky fight Tony after Tony just watched BUCKY MURDER HIS FUCKING PARENTS.

Like, fuck Captain America so hard. #TeamCap can suck fifty billion Thanos coloured cocks.

'Cause Tony was outright going to murder a guy who was not himself when those acts were commited? That he was going to murder the guy who had been tortured and mind put into a blender before after being sent on such missions?

What Tony did was understandable - but for a guy who's been on high stress since before the movie started had he actually succeeded in killing Bucky do you think he would have been alright afterwards? Especially after the adrenaline fell and he had the chance to go over just what he had done?

So did I haha. There was an audible "oh no he didn't" gasp when that happened.

I saw it as more Cap trying to change the subject that goes in line with his hopeful tone if Pepper was pregnant before Tony's response sent that crashing down.

 

[Switch Back 9]

'Cause Tony was outright going to murder a guy who was not himself when those acts were commited? That he was going to murder the guy who had been tortured and mind put into a blender before after being sent on such missions?

What Tony did was understandable - but for a guy who's been on high stress since before the movie started had he actually succeeded in killing Bucky do you think he would have been alright afterwards? Especially after the adrenaline fell and he had the chance to go over just what he had done?

Well I supppoosseee those are good points.

 

[mrkgoo]

I love how the audience can side with either hero and their ideals and way of thinking. It means the writers did a damn fine job in balancing the philsophies and reasoning for both sides.

 

[AMUSIX]

I can't believe people are still trying to say that Zola didn't tell Cap about Bucky clear enough.

This is the scene from Winter Soldier (the gif starts at the march and the rioting) Zola is says "And when history did not cooperate, history was changed" This is where Bucky is clearly shown. Then he says "Accidents will happen," while showing the Stark's death and Fury's death. Since Fury is already known to be the work of Bucky, then the implication is clear. Unless people think that he was saying the Stark's car crash was just a really fortunate accident for Hydra...because that's what his words literally meant.

 

[Azih]

There's plenty there that says the Starks were killed. There's nothing except implication that Bucky did it. Heck the shot of the sniper wasn't necessarily him.