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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
- Thread starter Son Of D
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crisdecuba
Member
I take Cap at his word when he says he didn't know who. My sense is that he didn't put it all together in his mind when Zola gave him the info dump. And then a big missile or bomb came and that was it - on to the next scene.I can't believe people are still trying to say that Zola didn't tell Cap about Bucky clear enough.
This is the scene from Winter Soldier (the gif starts at the march and the rioting) Zola is says "And when history did not cooperate, history was changed" This is where Bucky is clearly shown. Then he says "Accidents will happen," while showing the Stark's death and Fury's death. Since Fury is already known to be the work of Bucky, then the implication is clear. Unless people think that he was saying the Stark's car crash was just a really fortunate accident for Hydra...because that's what his words literally meant.
Hell, I didn't put it together either.
I say willful ignorance on Cap's part.
Like, he knows the Starks were assassinated, he knows Bucky was their premiere assassin, and he knows that a little digging could reveal who exactly killed them. He knows where those breadcrumbs lead. But as long as he doesn't open that box, he can say "nope, no idea about the Starks, no sir, I'm definitely not keeping anything from my colleague."
When Tony calls him out he's like - fuck, I've kind of been an asshole about this whole situation.
Like, he knows the Starks were assassinated, he knows Bucky was their premiere assassin, and he knows that a little digging could reveal who exactly killed them. He knows where those breadcrumbs lead. But as long as he doesn't open that box, he can say "nope, no idea about the Starks, no sir, I'm definitely not keeping anything from my colleague."
When Tony calls him out he's like - fuck, I've kind of been an asshole about this whole situation.
man avengers 1 cap suit is so bad, I thought this gif was from the 1990 cap movie for a second
Yeah, Cap is just lying to himself cus he's too chicken to face the reality of what it would mean.
The screenwriter says that both Cap and Black Widow categorically know that Hydra had Tony's parents murdered. There's no ifs, ands or buts about this, they knew. The questions is, though, did they know that Bucky did it? Well, they categorically know that Hydra did it because Zola implies that Hydra had them killed. So, if they know for a fact that Hydra killed Tony's parents because of an implications, then why would he then not believe the next implication, which is that Bucky was the one who killed Tony's parents?
I'd be weird for him to completely believe Zola's first implication but then be like "well, that could be a lie" for his second.
But Cap says he did know. So, yeah, take him at his word.
Zola shows the above sequence, essentially screaming "WINTER SOLDIER KILLED THE STARKS!"
Cap finds out that Bucky is Winter Soldier.
Cap's cognitive dissonance desperately tries to believe that maybe Zola was lying, or that maybe the article about the Stark's accident had nothing to do with the info it was sandwiched between (essentially: "here is our killer" and "here is who he killed").
So, when Tony asks him if he knew, Cap quickly claims he doesn't...even though he knows he does. Cap isn't trying to lie to Tony here, he's trying to still deny what happened. But when Tony presses, Cap knows he can't hold up the lie, so admits to having known.
You can youtube the Zola scene again, it was vague and does not outright implicate.
Do you think he was also being vague about hydra killing Tony's parents? I mean, Zola never outright says he killed them, hell, he just said that sometimes accidents happen. He never said to whom they happen to.
I rewatched it numerous time making the above gif. It's not vague in any way, unless you're being willfully ignorant. Zola is revealing how hydra does things.
-We change history
-Here is our agent
-Here are people we've killed
Once again, they show Bucky, then show two hits. We know the second hit was Bucky already, so that means either they put a completely unrelated hit between showing Bucky and his kill, or Bucky did both deeds. Considering Zola is laying out everything, to suggest he'd have no sense of structure in his presentation is absurd.
LOL @ all these teamcap fans doing mental gymnastics to find innocence that self righteous dick. If I were ironman, after I punch cap, I'd dismember his legs with a laser, then chase Bucky down, rip is arm off, choke him with it while Cap watched, then I'd beat the crap out of cap for being a judas
But then why did they show Bucky's picture when talking about all of these people who've they killed? Especially when one of the ones they think is dead was just "killed" by Bucky?
Why not? Bucky's a good stock image for Zola AI to throw up there to show how scary Hydra is.
Guys, the second time he was asked if he knew, Cap gave a firm "yes." Case closed, collect your Bucky and go home.
On an unrelated note, I was thinking about seeing this again after getting out of work early today. I'm regretting not going :-(
I likely won't get to it again until next week since I think I'm seeing The Nice Guys this weekend.
On an unrelated note, I was thinking about seeing this again after getting out of work early today. I'm regretting not going :-(
I likely won't get to it again until next week since I think I'm seeing The Nice Guys this weekend.
Wheeljack539
Member
Bucky probably did some of their most important hits. They had to thaw him out for some reason, right? It wasn't until the 12/16/91 mission that they soon would have access to 5 more. They probably did some work too but by the 90s some of bigger stuff likely had already happened.
Eh "I saw a picture of Bucky next to a picture of Howard Stack while an insane AI churned out vague statements" isn't conclusive evidence of anything. Zola didn't show stills from that amazingly well directed CCTV video Zemo managed to find after all. There's no smoking gun in Winter Soldier. There's barely a gun.
I'll ask this again, then why exactly did Cap categorically know that Hydra killed Tony's parents?
Why didn't he think "oh, it's just an insane AI talking bollocks"? Why was his take away from that scene that Hydra ordered their assassinations based solely on the implications but then didn't pick up on the other implication that says Bucky was the one who did it?
Why is one clear as day to him and the other isn't? In the video both implications were just that, implications, and yet Cap understands one but doesn't get the other one? Nah.
No, if you were Iron Man you'd be on the ground, gasping and withered, with the edge of a shield conspicuously sticking out of your former bionic heart.
Yeah right, because I'd let it get that far, I'd let Cap even get back up after sending him spinning with a punch. I'd also let him catch me mid flight destroying my thrusters and repulse because I don't want to hurt him, such rubbish. I'd first dismember him and if he doesn't back down, I'd outright blow a hole through is chest, you think you can fight me if we played this out as me being ironman and you being cap, I'd kill you 10 out of 10 times, over in many different ways even and you won't even reach within a metre of me, stop this shield nonsense. Shield that cap had to go pick up twice after getting it punched off his hand
The sequence is:
1. If history does not cooperate, history is changed. Bucky images shown. This implies geopolitical use.
2. Shield should have stopped this. Widow interjection.
3. Accidents happen. Car crash news report. No further images of Bucky.
It is reasonable to conclude Stark's death by auto accident could have been arranged by either simple Hydra goons or Bucky.
Jest Chillin
Member
This is like the weird brainchild of Snyder, Frank Miller, and Alan Moore's darkest dreams.
Why leave out that Zola shows the picture of Fury with "Deceased" over it immediately after the car crash images? A death that wasn't even disguised as an accident?
Oh yeah. Probably because it's put there specifically to heavily imply Bucky killed The Starks.
Woah there. Okay. Let's do some grade school shit here and actually take this seriously for some reason and play out 10 scenarios, with you getting to be Iron Man and me getting to be Captain America.
You, taking on the role of Iron Man, flop over awkwardly since you don't know any of the suit controls, don't have a comic book superhero genius IQ of 500 so can't instantly intuit anything about your magic science armor, and start asking Siri for the instruction manual.
I shrug and throw you into the ocean and go hit the club with Black Widow.
10 times.
Math checks out.
Lol good one mate, that had me laughing real hard. Now I'm worried my sleeping neighbours will think I'm crazy rude. I also admire your courage though, taking a shield and courage to face a loaded weapon suit
CloudyTuba
Member
Salty Rice
Member
Even if Cap didnt know 100% if it was Bucky he at least should have the thought thats a high possibility.
Doubt Cap thought Bob, Agent of Hydra did kill the Starks.
Doubt Cap thought Bob, Agent of Hydra did kill the Starks.
Fury after that, yup correct. Tho Stark auto-accident could be in separate sub-context from his. Also, before that Fury almost got bopped by HYDRA goons.
My interpretation is that Cap strongly suspected by putting 2 and 2 together but was afraid to ask, or he knew by asking Bucky.
Look, with #TeamCap, we can at least agree that some of what Steve Rogers did was wrong, but he did them for the right reasons. In the end, sure it's a bunch of friends standing by a man they believe in even though it wasn't all good. Just like how Steve stood by Bucky because he believed in him even though it wasn't all good.
But #TeamIronman? There is no #TeamIronman. There is just an egotistical broken billionaire, his crippled friend, and a robot created based on his AI servant. Everyone else either stabbed him in the back or walked away. Suck it.
But #TeamIronman? There is no #TeamIronman. There is just an egotistical broken billionaire, his crippled friend, and a robot created based on his AI servant. Everyone else either stabbed him in the back or walked away. Suck it.
the issue I have with Stark's reaction at the end is that he's literally just coming off of learning about how Bucky's mind control can be turned against them and how he's being used and seeing the repercussions of that (including his teammates thrown into jail and Scarlet Witch restrained like a mental patient) and he falls for it immediately again.
The movie did a much much better job of creating some reasoning behind the actions that lead to 'civil war' than the comic ever did...but even then it still suffers a bit from the crippling flaws of the original story.
that doesn't look like Roger Sterling
The movie did a much much better job of creating some reasoning behind the actions that lead to 'civil war' than the comic ever did...but even then it still suffers a bit from the crippling flaws of the original story.
I can't believe people are still trying to say that Zola didn't tell Cap about Bucky clear enough.
This is the scene from Winter Soldier (the gif starts at the march and the rioting) Zola is says "And when history did not cooperate, history was changed" This is where Bucky is clearly shown. Then he says "Accidents will happen," while showing the Stark's death and Fury's death. Since Fury is already known to be the work of Bucky, then the implication is clear. Unless people think that he was saying the Stark's car crash was just a really fortunate accident for Hydra...because that's what his words literally meant.
that doesn't look like Roger Sterling
But we know for a fact that they think Bucky killed Fury and that Bucky killed Tony's parents, so why would the subtext be different?
[edit]
I'm totally Team Cap even after he didn't tell Tony about his parents but I think it's kind of ridiculous how some of you try to argue that Cap didn't know. Even after the screen writers have said that he knew Hydra did it.
For him to not know it was Bucky, it would require the screenwriters to add a bunch of weird subtext that we know isn't true since we've seen Civil War. And to just interest a bunch of characters that don't exist.
"it could mean that another Hydra agent killed Tony's parents"
Then why would they show Bucky's shower? Why would they bring up a third party when the whole movie is about Bucky? It takes a lot of poor logical leaps to reach the conclusion that Cap didn't put two and two together after being shown that video.
Why is that a problem though? Tony Stark being a victim of his own character flaws even after recognizing them for what they are, over and over again, is consistent with the sort of person he is.
Just because Bucky killed Fury doesn't mean he set up the car accident. Bucky is indeed a very strong suspect for Steve, just not confirmed.
If I simply walked up to Steve and suggested that hydra goons killed Stark and Bucky killed Fury, he wouldn't rule that out because it is a very reasonable possibility based on Zola's monologue.
The Russos left it just open-ended enough to not paint MCU into a corner.
maybe. but not all character flaws are created equal. the whole creation of iron man was partially (as he stated) a result of him learning from some of his flaws. i just have a hard time buying even Stark wouldn't be impacted by seeing the severe repercussions of being tricked by a Bucky scam and brush them off just to fall for another.
He was impacted. That's why he broke ranks with Ross and flew to Siberia with an olive branch. But then. It was his mother.
I get it. I just don't really think it holds up very well and is a pretty shaky foundation to get to that final fight. To be fair to the movie though, it's pulling from source material that is severely flawed. It's a testament to the film to be able to shape that into something at coherent as it is.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
i swear you guys argue about the stupidest shit sometimes lmao
real life iron man. vs cap feat. tosyn_88 the badass
whether or not zola implied bucky killed howard stark when it's about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face, fucking lol
did you guys also know that the senator in winter soldier was also in iron man 2 woaaaah
real life iron man. vs cap feat. tosyn_88 the badass
whether or not zola implied bucky killed howard stark when it's about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face, fucking lol
did you guys also know that the senator in winter soldier was also in iron man 2 woaaaah
But we know he did and Cap knew at that point that Fury was "dead" because Bucky "killed" him, so why would he assume that the other person that they brought up while discussing Hydra assassinations wasn't done by the same person? Just from a storytelling point of view, this makes no sense. It'd be really sloppy writing so say, "here's some pictures of Bucky, we're talking about the people Hydra has killed, here's a picture of Fury which Bucky just killed, here's a picture of Tony's dad and here's some more pictures of Bucky but Bucky didn't kill him". That wouldn't make any sense and we don't have to guess if that's a possibility since we already know that's not the case.
The screenwriters said that they wrote that in but weren't sure if they would ever touch upon it again, until they figured it would work really well with Civil War.
So it's not that they left it open ended, it's just that they weren't sure if it would ever be a relevant for another movie's plot.
It's pretty clear what their intentions were in WS and then they confirmed it, so why are we talking about ifs and maybes when we already know the answer to those ifs and maybes? It's not maybe they wanted to make it ambiguous but they didn't, they wanted you to know Bucky killed his parents. It's not maybe it could be someone else because they said Cap and Black Widow got what Zola was insinuating.
I think by now I've made hundreds of posts explaining that Cap knew about Tony's parents from Zola's video in Winter Soldier. Up until Civil War, I didn't even remember that bald nazi's name was Zola.
Jest Chillin
Member
Sandwiching something that has a completely different "sub-context" between two references to Bucky makes no sense narratively to both Zola's very specific structuring of his speech and within the movie overall.
You really have to not pay attention to the details or turn a deliberately skeptical/blind eye to it to not get the inference.
crisdecuba
Member
? How are you contradicting what I said? Cap said he knew, but that he didn't know WHO. I take him at his word, with the interpretation I mentioned earlier.
UltimaPooh
Member
Which is why #teamironman is the best.
Tony is a representation of someone who is real... Who has these flaws and trys to fix them but keeps failing at them. Eventually he'll get it right.
Cap is just a good ole boy who also trys very hard... but everything goes his way, cuz he's cap.
batman2million
Member
I don't know if this was addressed but maybe someone can help understand two things.
1. Did Zemo brain wash Bucky to blow up the UN building? Or was that some fake/ photoshop/ hacked footage they had that framed Bucky as the one who was responsible. If he already brainwashed Bucky then why the whole interview scene?
2. How was Zemo certain that Ironman would show up to the place they went to in the end (forgot what it was called). Stark went to Sam in the raft to find out where Cap was going. Can't just be coincidence.
1. Did Zemo brain wash Bucky to blow up the UN building? Or was that some fake/ photoshop/ hacked footage they had that framed Bucky as the one who was responsible. If he already brainwashed Bucky then why the whole interview scene?
2. How was Zemo certain that Ironman would show up to the place they went to in the end (forgot what it was called). Stark went to Sam in the raft to find out where Cap was going. Can't just be coincidence.
SneakersSO
Member
Saw this movie last weekend. Really let it sink on as to what I saw before I dropped my thoughts in here.
-Loved the film, but it had some pacing issues that TWS & GotG didn't. Still, easily one of the better MCU films.
-Really enjoyed how it brought together so many plot elements from various other MCU movies to bare here. Sure, this is an MCU movie, so some of that is to be expected. However, I felt like AoU felt rather disconnected from the other MCU films that had occurred in phase 2. For example, Tony was just back in the suit in AoU with zero explanation or setup. They actually did a great job bringing threads that we haven't seen in years back to the forefront in some way, and it really helped inform motivations. They even did a better job at giving the events around Sokovia more weight than the actual movie it was destroyed in did.
-Was very happy that there was more nuance to the sides of the conflict than just a line in the sand. It was great seeing these characters come together & interact with one another on such an epic scale.
-Zemo was actually a fantastic villain imo. I did not see the swerve with him shooting the frozen Winter Soldier's coming, and once I realized what his plan ultimately was (to show Stark the footage & ultimately drive a permanent wedge into the Avengers), it dawned on me how brilliantly he had pulled it off. I'm looking forward to seeing him developed more in future films, if he gets the chance.
-I ultimately had 1 question coming out of this movie, and it was about the political debate that drives the conflict in the film. Personally, I just don't see why the Sokovia Accords, or the guilt trip that Ross & a few others were trying to place on the Avengers, ever landed. I mean, even if the good intentions of everyone involved was to make all the heroe'ss efforts UN Sanctioned, it doesn't change the fact that these beings are still the first & last line of defense on the scale of conflict they are responding to. There was nothing within the UN's power to stop the interdimensional portal in New York, or Ultron for that matter, so how the fuck can they sit there & hold the heroes of all people accountable?
I could've absolutely seen a case being made for the bombing Crossbones does early in the film being a case of the Avengers overstepping their bounds, as Crossbones & his team was just highly organized military, not some existential threat for mankind. But Sokovia & NYC? Yeah, the alternative in those situations was global annihilation, so
I don't see how anyone on the Avenger's team, Vision included, could've seen the logic in taking any blame for those. Heck, the impetus for the NYC event happening was Thor coming to Earth originally, which had nothing to do with any Earth-bound effort, and everything to do with another civilization's on-goings ending up on Earth's doorstep. So its not like Vision's original argument was wholly valid, which was that the existence of the heroes themselves invites challenge & ultimately conflict, since one of these events started when Thor was sent to Earth to repent, an event which, again, was not invited or allowed to occur by any person on Earth originally.
-Loved the film, but it had some pacing issues that TWS & GotG didn't. Still, easily one of the better MCU films.
-Really enjoyed how it brought together so many plot elements from various other MCU movies to bare here. Sure, this is an MCU movie, so some of that is to be expected. However, I felt like AoU felt rather disconnected from the other MCU films that had occurred in phase 2. For example, Tony was just back in the suit in AoU with zero explanation or setup. They actually did a great job bringing threads that we haven't seen in years back to the forefront in some way, and it really helped inform motivations. They even did a better job at giving the events around Sokovia more weight than the actual movie it was destroyed in did.
-Was very happy that there was more nuance to the sides of the conflict than just a line in the sand. It was great seeing these characters come together & interact with one another on such an epic scale.
-Zemo was actually a fantastic villain imo. I did not see the swerve with him shooting the frozen Winter Soldier's coming, and once I realized what his plan ultimately was (to show Stark the footage & ultimately drive a permanent wedge into the Avengers), it dawned on me how brilliantly he had pulled it off. I'm looking forward to seeing him developed more in future films, if he gets the chance.
-I ultimately had 1 question coming out of this movie, and it was about the political debate that drives the conflict in the film. Personally, I just don't see why the Sokovia Accords, or the guilt trip that Ross & a few others were trying to place on the Avengers, ever landed. I mean, even if the good intentions of everyone involved was to make all the heroe'ss efforts UN Sanctioned, it doesn't change the fact that these beings are still the first & last line of defense on the scale of conflict they are responding to. There was nothing within the UN's power to stop the interdimensional portal in New York, or Ultron for that matter, so how the fuck can they sit there & hold the heroes of all people accountable?
I could've absolutely seen a case being made for the bombing Crossbones does early in the film being a case of the Avengers overstepping their bounds, as Crossbones & his team was just highly organized military, not some existential threat for mankind. But Sokovia & NYC? Yeah, the alternative in those situations was global annihilation, so
I don't see how anyone on the Avenger's team, Vision included, could've seen the logic in taking any blame for those. Heck, the impetus for the NYC event happening was Thor coming to Earth originally, which had nothing to do with any Earth-bound effort, and everything to do with another civilization's on-goings ending up on Earth's doorstep. So its not like Vision's original argument was wholly valid, which was that the existence of the heroes themselves invites challenge & ultimately conflict, since one of these events started when Thor was sent to Earth to repent, an event which, again, was not invited or allowed to occur by any person on Earth originally.
I think no further pictures of Bucky were shown during Widow's interjection and Stark's accident. Basically the Fury argument relies on "X killed Y thus X killed Z".
Hydra goons have to be an open possibility since they attacked him in the elevator.
Yea I think it was planned, just that they didn't want to commit prior to AoU. Besides, any clear confirmation pretty much spoils the core Civil War plot.
1. They were very explicit in saying that Zemo used prosthetics to pretend to be Bucky and blow up the UN building, thereby framing him and rousing a manhunt to expose Bucky's location.
2. He wasn't. Zemo's plan was very much reactionary. He didn't plan on Tony being there, he was just there for the tape.
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